Trump says Ukraine 'started it' - Politics Discussion

[–] BKB (11272) 2 days ago

Zelensky was responsible for some of this, why is this so hard for you to admit other than you don't want to admit Trump's right because of your liberal detest for the man who you've never met and probably never will??

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 2 days ago

Zelensky was responsible for some of this,

Such as?

y ou don't want to admit Trump's right

In this matters quoted above he is mostly wrong.

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[–] Yatzo (2161) 2 days ago

Trump is an idiot and has to go

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[–] MarkPh (1026) 2 days ago

Not Ukraine started it, Ukraine has always been the most corrupt country, where everybody was trying to put as much money into his own pockets as possible and nobody had time to organize anything political, they wouldn't have gotten anywhere on their own.
Ukraine has always cut a fee out of the pipelines going through Ukraine from Russia to Europe, but they frequently got so corrupt and greedy that they disturbed the trade between Russia and Europe, which is why Russia then built the Northstream piplelines around Ukraine that got sabotaged recently.

It's been the western world, led by the US, who poured so much money and weapons into Ukraine, that despite all the corruption there was still enough left to generate a military threat to Russia.
This has started some 15 years ago under Obama, has continued unchanged during Trumps first term and under Biden and if the US is now pulling the rug, the ones suffering is the people of Ukraine who get partially taken over by Russian government.

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[–] maixiu (2841) 2 days ago

A lot of truth in this. If anything, much of the blame for this goes to the reckless foreign policies of the United States and EU member states, in addition to the staggering corruption of the MIC and NGOs involved.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 2 days ago

It is certainly true that corruption has been an issue in Ukraine, one reason why its accession to the EU has been unsuccessful. But I'd rather live there than under Putin's even more corrupt, criminal dictatorship.

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[–] MarkPh (1026) 2 days ago

And that's exactly why all of it is the fault of the western world.
First arming far right groups in Ukraine to the teeth until Russia saw a threat they couldn't accept any longer and now that they realize they can't win the war (just like the couldn't win Vietnam or Afghanistan) the US is pulling the rug leaving eastern Ukraine to the Russians.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 2 days ago

First arming far right groups in Ukraine to the teeth until Russia saw a threat

Congratulations. You are the first person I know who actually swallows Putin's reasons for his
naked aggression in expanding the Russian empire.

now that they realize they can't win the war (just like the couldn't win Vietnam or Afghanistan)

You know that the US aren't actually fighting a war, let alone for themselves - right?

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[–] MarkPh (1026) 2 days ago

"You know that the US aren't actually fighting a war, let alone for themselves - right?"

As if I needed any proof for you talking nonsense.
How many veterans from Vietnam are to this day living in poverty in the US, because the military dumped them without proper treatment for their insuries?
https://www.va.gov/vetdata/Report.asp
How many US soldiers were in stationed in Afghanistan and how many got killed there?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan

The fact that they haven't sent soldiers to Ukraine comes only from the problem that if one single US soldier had in Ukraine killed one single Russian soldier, Russia would have seen that as an attack from the US and would have retalliated directly at the US.

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[–] maixiu (2841) 2 days ago

Holy Mackinaw. We're truly into blind squirrel/nut territory.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 2 days ago

How many veterans from Vietnam are to this day living in poverty in the US, because the military dumped them without proper treatment for their insuries?

How relevant is this to a discussion about Ukraine?

The fact that they haven't sent soldiers to Ukraine

QED

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[–] MarkPh (1026) 2 days ago

Where when or how in

"It's been the western world, led by the US, who poured so much money and weapons into Ukraine ..."

have you red me saying the US has sent soldiers?

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[–] CraigC (8763) 2 days ago

No one is on Putin's side. That's nothing but a perpetuation of the bullshit Russian collusion hoax. We don't give a shit about Putin or Russia. We just want American tax dollars to stop being shoveled down that blackhole. Period.

The only people who think Trump is a bully are leftist retards who've been conditioned to think that.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 2 days ago

think Trump is a bully

'Do what I want or I will hurt your country' sums up a lot of Trump's attitude to foreign affairs. That and isolating Ukraine while alienating or confusing long standing allies.

He may not have been guilty of collusion with Russia as originally charged but, in recent weeks as he cuddles up to Putin and freezes Zelensky out, that claim is increasingly hardly to dismiss.

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[–] CraigC (8763) 2 days ago

Trump is trying to level the playing field, so that we're not acting as the world police and paying for it too.

You fucking retards attribute anything he does with regards to Putin as "cuddling up". He knows how to deal with greedy assholes, you clearly do not.

Whereas Biden didn't do a fucking thing but embarrass us by falling asleep at every meeting.

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[–] Chomsky89 (439) 2 days ago

He also said he was a dictator because of the lack of elections, when Ukraine is at war and a big part of ukranians are refugees in other countries. You can not have elections when there is a war inside your own country.

Trump himself even tried to overturn an election, so this is more embarrassing than whatever Biden has done, and i am definetly not a fan of him.

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[–] CraigC (8763) a day ago

You mean an election where 15million voters suddenly disappeared?

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[–] Chomsky89 (439) a day ago

Even if that was somehow true, do you seriously think someone can just refuse to step down because they feel something is fishy?

You want to claim it was rigged, fine, but you should still step down when you have officially lost an election.
It is the absolute minimum you should expect from a western leader.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 2 days ago

Trump is trying to level the playing field,

By speaking at length to just side in the conflict?

with greedy assholes,

Like those who steal chunks of another country?

we're not acting as the world police

Just the world's real estate broker?

You fucking retards

Oh dear.

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[–] CraigC (8763) a day ago

One side? He's already met with Zelensky. Putin is the other side. You can't broker peace without treating with Putin. What the fuck are you smoking?

Yeah, like those who steal chunks of their former territory. You dummies keep pretending that Ukrainians and Russians aren't the same people.

Good job cutting my comment out of context. 99% of wars are over money, power and real estate. Real estate is always part of a peace deal.

You fucking retard.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) a day ago

You can't broker peace without treating with Putin.

And you can't have meaningful peace talks without both sides at the table.

You dummies keep pretending that Ukrainians and Russians aren't the same people.

I'd rather the Ukrainians decide that for themselves, Putin thanks you anyway though.

You fucking retard.

Civil as always I see lol

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[–] CraigC (8763) 17 hours ago

As a mediator, it helps to talk to both sides independently before negotiating peace between them.

The Urkainians are in no position to dictate terms.

Putin thanks me for what, not giving a shit? I don't. We've thrown away billions to weaken an enemy that was never a threat to us. China is the big fish, not Russia.

You people really are totally clueless. You're so emotionally invested in the narrative, you're blind to anything and everything else.

You fucking retard.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 14 hours ago

it helps to talk to both sides independently before negotiating peace between them.

It hasn't helped too much so far. Western allies are confused and alienated. The sense is that Trump is not a independent or objective broker. For one thing he has discussed a number of concessions off his own bat, which Ukraine would not agree to and has worked to undermine Zelensky.

Putin thanks me for what, not giving a shit? I don't.

And yet... here you are.

You fucking retard.

You said that just before - and it wasn't big or clever then, either.

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[–] SemiAnimus (3245) 17 hours ago

[–] filmflaneur (2999) 5 hours ago
I'd rather the Ukrainians decide that for themselves, Putin thanks you anyway though.

Such as in the 2010 election that resulted in Viktor Yanukovych becoming President for five years, the length of the term in that nation?

Oh, that's right I meant four years, because the democratically elected President was overthrown in the US/EU backed Maidan Revolution in 2014.

Maybe you're instead referring to the status quo where elections are frozen and Ukrainians have no capacity to decide for themselves? But that doesn't make much sense either.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 14 hours ago

because the democratically elected President was overthrown in the US/EU backed Maidan Revolution in 2014.

You forgot to mention how this, also known as the Revolution of Dignity, was a popular ousting of pro-communist president President Yanukovych's after his decision not to sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union (EU), instead choosing closer ties to Russia .Earlier that year the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) had overwhelmingly approved finalizing the agreement when Russia had pressured Ukraine to reject it. Euromaidan soon developed into the largest democratic mass movement in Europe since 1989. Glad to help.

Maybe you're instead referring to the status quo where elections are frozen and Ukrainians have no capacity to decide for themselves? But that doesn't make much sense either.

It makes perfect sense since the country is in the middle of a war and a state of emergency. The same happened in the UK during WW2 under Churchill..

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[–] SemiAnimus (3245) 14 hours ago

You didn't help much, and I'm starting to suspect your knowledge about that subject is limited to such as the Wikipedia snippet you pasted there. Rebutting your one second search result isn't worth my effort.

The point about Churchill is not only highly irrelevant to this circumstance, it's actually a detraction from the argument you're trying to make. Enabling the suspension of democratic processes because of wartime circumstances is not only questionable, it leads to tyranny by encouraging those in power to promote war so as to maintain that power. This is obvious to anyone familiar with history.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 14 hours ago

as the Wikipedia snippet you pasted there.... Rebutting your one second search result isn't worth my effort.

That's a shame .. as is the lack of any alternative source from your side of things rebutting what I said. Unless you are presenting yourself as an authority of sorts? Meanwhile

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/understanding-ukraines-euromaidan-protests

https://www.weareukraine.info/special/how-russia-discredits-the-revolution-of-dignity/

Enabling the suspension of democratic processes because of wartime circumstances is not only questionable, it leads to tyranny by encouraging those in power to promote war so as to maintain that power.

Thank you for your opinion. In the case of Churchill and Zelensky at least, the tyranny was/is all on the other side.

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[–] SemiAnimus (3245) 14 hours ago

Thank you for your opinion. In the case of Churchill and Zelensky at least the tyranny was/is all on the other side.

Why am I not surprised that you left it at "my opinion," rather than finding sources that support your contention that democracy should be suppressed when a nation is at war? Other than that this is typically counted among the precept of fascists and dictators, is seems that this value you're pushing is the antithesis of the democratic ideal of a popular vote that this exchange is oriented around. Are you worried about coming off as a hypocrite?

The current government of Ukraine is the direct product of a foreign (US/EU) backed revolution that resulted in the overthrow of a democratically elected leader, no elections are being held currently, and the reason is because of a war that would almost certainly end if a different leader were elected through a popular vote. None of these are compatible with your democratic pretensions and are instead the acts of a tyrant.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 14 hours ago

Why am I not surprised that you left it at "my opinion" ...

Because that is all you are offering,

The current government of Ukraine is the direct product of a foreign (US/EU) backed revolution [blah]

Thank you for your opinion.

Is it also your opinion that Churchill, who also held no elections during war time, was a tyrant too?

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[–] HarlemEagle42 (18420) 2 days ago

Russian asset. Plain and simple.

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[–] maixiu (2841) 2 days ago

Flimflam, isn't this where you jump in and say, "unsourced opinion"?

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 2 days ago

If HarlemEagle wants to call Trump a Russian asset, who am I to disagree?

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[–] maixiu (2841) 2 days ago

Oh dear. Whither your vaunted principles and rigid adherence to fact-based argument?

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 2 days ago

HarlemEagle seems to be making a fact-based argument based on what we have all seen, so no worries there lol. Putin must be rubbing his hands.

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[–] KiwiJim (1762) 2 days ago

“He also claimed Zelensky has only '4% support' nationwide which is also incorrect, as the President has still got a high approval rating amongst Ukrainians..”

Indeed. Yes the actual current approval figures (that is, not the random numbers Don pulls from his ass) are:

Zelensky: 57%
Trump: 45%

But you won’t hear it from D-Boy because that would not fit the narrative one iota.

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[–] tvfan (14545) a day ago

But Ukraine did start it.

And why would a dictator responsible for destroying his country and the deaths of thousands, have an approval rating higher than 4%?

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) a day ago

But Ukraine did start it.

Where did you learn that idea?

And why would a dictator responsible for destroying his country and the deaths of thousands..

Oh dear. Elections were suspended in the UK for the duration of the last war. Was Churchill guilty of the same crimes?

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[–] moviechatterer (16307) 18 hours ago

He's just parroting Tumps words verbatim as they are the word of god and cannot be refuted.

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[–] tvfan (14545) 15 hours ago

That's rich coming from someone that regurgitates the fake news media about everything.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 14 hours ago

And you believe in fake right wing narratives.

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[–] tvfan (14545) 14 hours ago

And yet, right wing narratives have been correct 99% of the time.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 14 hours ago

And just how do you know that?

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[–] tvfan (14545) 15 hours ago

Was Churchill guilty of the same crimes?

Yes, and worse.

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 15 hours ago

And Hitler was justified?

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[–] maixiu (2841) 14 hours ago

"Hitler, Hitler, Hitler!!!"

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 14 hours ago

It was a serious question following tv's revealing and somewhat disturbing claim, but thank you anyway.

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[–] TheHardSell (2073) 16 hours ago

https://x.com/Palsvig/status/1892561520116023540/photo/1

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[–] filmflaneur (3014) 15 hours ago

Thank you for the antisemitic contribution, just what we needed.

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