Jesus Was Woke
"Love thy neighbor as thyself"
shareJesus is at the border. Will you let him in?
https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Jesus-Border-Immigrant-Neighbors/dp/158743430X
MovieChat Forums > Politics > Jesus Was Woke
When it came to "genders" he was decidedly unwoke.
"But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” (Mark 10:6-9)
“Judge not, lest ye be judged”
Love thy neighbor as thyself.
[deleted]
Do you believe that God doesn't want you to make judgments on moral issues? How would you then tailor your behavior to comport with His wishes?
shareI judge that a god which orders, or instigates genocide, is an evil god - especially one who admits to making evil in the first place.
shareOh dear.
shareOh, dear gawd actually:
En route to the Promised Land, Israel had offered terms of peace to enemy nations; they were to kill only the warriors of towns that resisted them. But total war was unleashed upon Canaan. “Do not leave alive anything that breathes,” God insisted: men, women, children, even animals—all destroyed.
Lucifer is the root of all evil, not God, SKAVAU.
shareLucifer is the root of all evil, not God
Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.".
And ... don't you think Genocide is an evil?
SKAVAU
Troll.
share
SemiAnimus already addressed your idiotic misinterpretation you probably picked up from reading The Advocate.
shareIs 'evil' - or words which essentially mean the same thing - a good thing in your opinion? Genocide ordered by your deity, or childhood cancer say?
shareSemiAnimus already addressed your idiotic misinterpretation you probably picked up from reading The Advocate.
shareYou are right, he thinks he has by saying his deity merely talks of 'doing bad'. He seems unaware of the Natural Evil argument or the one from moral allowance. Any news on whether genocide is a good or bad thing? I think we should be told.
shareIf you had a shred of common sense, you wouldn't have to ask if genocide is a bad thing, it is. God never ordered any genocide, you ignoramus.
shareyou wouldn't have to ask if genocide is a bad thing, it is.
Good, glad common sense and morality prevails at this point. So then; when the Xian deity allegedly orders it, or perpetrates it as it does supposedly in the Bible that, I take it, is a very bad thing? I need to double check, btw, since some Xians at this point try Command Theory. https://iep.utm.edu/divine-command-theory/
I am inferring that when god orders or manifests genocide, and normal morality says it is a bad thing, that that entity is not wholly good as claimed. share
What genocide are you referring to, exactly?
shareStart with the Flood. Then move on to, let's see... I choose 1 Samuel 15:3 " Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
I hope that helps. All bad things you say... right?
Is killing evil people, evil?
Do we not put murderers to death?
Does this comparison mean that you justify genocide, the case in point? It has already been called a bad thing ( I would call it evil but that is just my personal idea of morality) here.
And no, capital punishment is not as common as one might think. And mass killing of a population is not the same as a single murder.
If God deems genocide the only answer to smite irredeemable sinners, His judgement is final. However, genocide is not a thing for man to use against his fellow man.
shareIf God deems genocide the only answer to smite irredeemable sinners, His judgement is final.
This is the Command Theory defence, mentioned earlier as common at this point: the idea that if God does something, whatever it is, then it is necessarily just and good. It has been dealt with harshly by many moral philosophers and reeks of moral hypocrisy of the worst sort, for instance in justifying genocide as you do here. Can a supposed all-good god really kill men women and children and their animals en masse, or order the same, and still remain beyond reproach? It also raised a classic dilemma: is something good because says it is, or is something good whatever god says? Ideas of 'objective morality' would suggest the latter. share
WRONG, like the ignorant douche you are, you and they are failing to understand God is not governed by the laws of man. You need to humble yourself, as no man is worthy of judging The Lord Thy God, Luciferian SKAVAU.
sharethe ignorant douche you are ... Luciferian SKAVAU.
Oh dear.
You need to humble yourself, as no man is worthy of judging The Lord Thy God
Whatever. I judge the idea of every supposed deity on its merits and logical coherence and the one you prefer is no different. Sorry about that.
Btw: since I have made it clear, several times, that I am not Skavau and yet you persist in this trolling, you might want to know that the ninth commandment has wise words for people like you. The Bible also has verses about those who repeatedly and knowingly sin. Just sayin'. share
Shut up, Luciferian.
share"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
Hmm, why were they being killed? Did you leave anything out?
"I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt."
shareExactly. God didnt just start randomly killing good honest people. You can read about some of the crimes they committed against Israel in the bible.
shareGod didnt just start randomly killing good honest people
Genocide, the indiscriminate killing of all men, women, and children (and their animals) makes no distinction between the good and bad. In fact it is a form of collective punishment. share
Why were they killed?
shareBecause your merciful and all-loving god commanded it of course. If you seek to justify things on that sole basis (i.e. that all things ordered by God are necessarily good and just) then we are just back to Command Theory.
The problem is that, the morality in objective terms of such divinely-inspired atrocities aside, it is too easy then to assume to know what a god wants, and to justify the worst of things on his behalf. Like running a Crusade, burning witches or flying planes into buildings. If anything can be justified by a god's wish or command, then eventually, anything will be,
Nope tell the reason they were killed. Just be an adult and answer the question
shareBecause an all-good God commanded or instigated it, just told you often, it seems because of actions against His favourite people. But, which mass killing did you have in mind?
In the case of the Amalekites it was specifically for "what they did to Israel" ie there had been an ambush.
Do you justify Genocide here?
In the case of the Canaanites, Joshua's campaign against Canaan was a systematic killing of men, women, and children. This practice was called herem, which meant no mercy, no treaties, and no intermarriage. Some say that God allowed the Israelites to go to war because he chose them as his holy nation.
Whatever. But perhaps you justify genocide here?
In the case of the Midianites "So they made war against Midian, just as the Lord had commanded Moses, and they killed every male. 8 They killed the kings of Midian along with the rest of those killed: Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam the son of Beor with the sword. And the sons of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones; and they plundered all their cattle, all their flocks, and all their property." [Num 31:1] it has been concluded that Yahweh commanded holy war against Midian "in retaliation for the latter's seduction of Israel into acts of harlotry and idolatry".
At least with the Flood it wasn't all about Israel. But can one really justify collective punishment on such a grand scale when an omnipotent deity would have all other options? If he can 'harden hearts' like that of the the Pharaoh and others in scripture then surely he could soften them too, right?
How about here, is genocide justifed? Or is it so ... but only sometimes lol?
They were being punished for their crimes. Nice of you to finally admit that.
shareAnd so once again then: collective punishment, in the form of genocide in those several instances, was justified? You didn't say. A simple yes or no will suffice, thank you. Another Christian on this thread has apparently had to go away and think about this simple question. Don't take too long though; I might think you are evading matters.
shareI havent said anything was justified. I was making you aware of the reality of what happened. But you knew what happened already. You knew these were wicked people who were being punished.
shareI havent said anything was justified.
Which is why I am still waiting for your answer of either yes or no to my question. Is there a problem? Don't you know? I thought you Christian types believe in clear, objective morality? share
I'm a practicing Catholic. Are you thinking you can trick me into attacking/denouncing the actions of the same God I worship?
You think I'm going to agree with you just because you keep insisting? Do you think your opinion means that much to me? I've already given my opinion on the situation. According to the bible these were evil people being punished. Evil people in most civilizations throughout history receive some sort of punishment including death. That's just a fact. Now unless you have anything new to add, I'm done with this exchange.
Are you thinking you can trick me into attacking/denouncing the actions of the same God I worship? You think I'm going to agree with you just because you keep insisting?
I am sure your apparently blind faith is stronger than that, Christian.
I've already given my opinion on the situation.
But you still haven't given a simple yes or no to the question of whether such punishment, slaughtering the evil and innocent alike, can ever be justified and moral.. Two Christians on this thread I have faced with this dilemma. One is supposedly still 'getting back to me' on this issue, and here you run away without replying. I love the smell of moral hypocrisy in the morning.
share
This sounds like justifying mass killings and genocide with special pleading, which is the above noted Command Theory defence. Not being lumbered with a jealous angry and vengeful god to defend, I say that genocide is always wrong. Something, I venture to suggest. that would be the view of most reasonably moral people.
sharefilmflaneur (2436) 5 minutes ago
Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.".
Yeah...I figured that's where you were going with that one. share
filmflaneur (2435) 2 hours ago
especially one who admits to making evil in the first place.
Are you bringing up that tired reddit Isaiah 45:7 line again?
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Maybe some day we'll be close enough for me to give you a lesson in Hebrew, but for now that is nothing more a flowery mistranslation from King James.
The original:
ז יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי
יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה.
Note the word עֹשֶׂה, or "do" that appears twice here. The first עֹשֶׂה is predicate to the direct object רָע, that can be translated as both evil and bad. Note "do" does not appear twice in the King James fuckup.
That passage refers to doing "bad" (things). Don't try to bullshit me here; you're abso-fucking-lutely wrong. share
More commonly the word evil in KJV is glossed as 'misfortune', while referring to specifically natural evil (ie suffering or pain that occurs as a result of natural events, and is not caused by humans.) That still leaves your god deliberately creating childhood cancer. Not a good look.
The difference between evil, misfortune or, as you would have it, plain 'doing bad' is just semantics though, especially since one would not expect an all-good deity doing less than all-good. Genocide is 'doing bad' is it not?
Weak effort.
It is a bad translation and completely undermines the point you were trying to make, as much as you're now attempting to gloss over it.
You're basically pointing to a Korean saying "I make evil on your family!" and then telling people the person intended to "create" evil.
Like I said, you're completely, hopelessly wrong here. Play your word games with someone who isn't deeply more familiar with these concepts than your filmboard peers.
The point I am, still, making is that your god admits to creating evil, misfortune or 'bad things', and not always Lucifer (assuming either actually exists of course). And it still stands.
Btw: Your best bet is to argue that your deity is not admitting to creating such things after all, but is merely "allowing for them". That is the special pleading which is sometimes used here to greatest effect. As creative exegesis it is not without its own difficulties, though. Why not give it a try, Christian? LOL
No, God admitted to doing evil things. I could say that you are "making" an error here, and that would be correct on several levels. Perhaps I could even say you "created" an error, as you might hear someone say when English is not their first language, though that would be giving you too much credit because clearly that was not your intention as you applied the word.
You're wrong and are dancing around the issue.
Until next time.
Semi, are you christian?
shareNo, God admitted to doing evil things
Thank you, An honest Christian. The question now is whether such a supposed deity is worthy of our worship. I can imagine a god which does not do evil and so would be more perfect than one that does.
... could say that you are "making" an error here, and that would be correct on several levels. Perhaps I could even say you "created" an error, as you might hear someone say when English is not their first language, though that would be giving you too much credit because clearly that was not your intention as you applied the word.
I have no idea of your point here but your tortured syntax does not encourage the idea that you are thinking clearly and simply, important in most philosophical exchanges. Dancing around the issue. indeed.. share
[–] filmflaneur (2441) 2 minutes ago
... could say that you are "making" an error here, and that would be correct on several levels. Perhaps I could even say you "created" an error, as you might hear someone say when English is not their first language, though that would be giving you too much credit because clearly that was not your intention as you applied the word.
I have no idea of your point here but your tortured syntax does not encourage the idea that you are thinking clearly and simply, important in most philosophical exchanges. Dancing around the issue. indeed..
I have a question for you; was that an ad hominem, poisoning the well or both?
After that maybe you can tell me whether the candle was lighted or lit.
OR maybe just not be a dick after I was kind enough to point out your error and be thankful you learned something.
Oh dear and good day to you, flimflam. share
I have a question for you; was that an ad hominem, poisoning the well or both?
Loaded question noted.
just not be a dick
What was that you were just saying about ad hominems?
I was kind enough to point out your error and be thankful you learned something.
Thank you for your patronising tone. Since you have already agreed, just above, that your deity admits to evil things, I thought things were decided? The only question now is: are you happy worshiping a deity which admits to deliberately doing such work?
And good day to you. share
Flimflam, you attempted to be deep and to appear infallible with your Isaiah reference before, but all you had to do was bring up something any child might be familiar with, like Noah and the Flood or the crucifixion of Jesus. The Flood was evil, by human standards that is.
What you are arguing has been thoroughly addressed in commentary.
Still, you inadvertently demonstrate your shallow understanding of this topic by linking articles about general concepts related to theology when you are making specific claims about a specific religion.
God is not good or evil; God is.
We're switching to Greek now flimflam. Can you keep up?
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
Notice a word there that isn't an article that appears the most?
If you can tell me what that word is and what it means then we can continue down this road of why you are wrong.
Flimflam, you attempted to be deep..
Nothing deep to it. Your supposed deity admits to creating 'evil' or 'misfortune' or 'bad things', depending on how one glosses the relevant verses effects - of which at the very least include childhood cancers, this while the Bible recounts two or three genocides of its working, or instigation. Common sense says this is not a wholly good god.
.. and to appear infallible
The irony is that it is the notion that your deity is 'infallible' which leads believers to justify the worst. It is the sort of moral bankruptcy which, inevitably, makes atheism attractive to free thinkers.
The Flood was evil, by human standards that is.
Special pleading noted, and we are back to Command Theory: that everything your deity does is necessarily good and justified. And back to the same famous dilemma : the issue whether that an action is either good because God commands the action, or that God commands an action because it is good. If the first is chosen, it would imply that whatever God commands must be good: even if he commanded someone to inflict suffering or enacts it, then inflicting suffering must be moral. If the latter is chosen, then morality is no longer dependent on God, which defeats the CT argument. I hope that helps.
What you are arguing has been thoroughly addressed in commentary.
Which appears cannot be summarised here lol
God is not good or evil; God is.
Special pleading, and an equivocation that is not found in scripture eg:
Psalm 34:8 "Taste and see that the Lord is good"
Nahum 1:7 "The Lord is good,"
Matthew 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. "
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, ...
a Greek phrase from the Bible, John 1:1. It translates to "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".
Notice a word there that isn't an article that appears the most?
Go on, explain it all to this poor sinner but keep it simple with no creative exegesis.. But the verse is entirely irrelevant to whether an all-good deity would deliberately create evil, or the aforementioned Euthyphro dilemma. But if you feel it is please explain. Perhaps you are just arguing that 'the Word' is enough to justify or excuse the worst of behaviours which means we are back with CT..
Do you ever justify genocide? A simple yes or no will do. share
You're getting shifty, flimflam. Both items of discourse you threw out there are founded on something external to God. We're not talking about the morality of dictation or if God condemns an action. You knew that though.
You've saved some future effort by providing the King James Translation there, but are you going to translate what that word means?
I can't answer your question of genocide at the moment, but when I get around to wiping out an entire race I'll let you know.
You're getting shifty... I can't answer your question of genocide at the moment,
LOL.. you mean you don't know at once if genocide is immoral? Who here is getting shifty?
Mug up on the special pleading and creative exegesos found on sites like this
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/god-guilty-genocide/
it may help salve your conscience..
We're not talking about the morality of dictation or if God condemns an action
It is true that your deity does not condemn genocide or group punishment per se - a good thing really, given its record.
but are you going to translate what that word means?
I am afraid your obscurity has got the better of me. Which word? And what has that to do with your god's use of genocide and the admission of his creating of 'bad things'? John1:1 simply establishes to the satisfaction of the writer that Jesus is the Word of God, and that he existed before the creation of the universe. It also establishes that Jesus is equal to God. The Word about group punishments and genocides meanwhile is on the street, and the Word is not good. What has that to do with biblical massacres?
when I get around to wiping out an entire race I'll let you know.
Apt, but I would advise against putting words in your jealous, angry and murderous god. You never know.
Btw the objective Google translation of your earlier Greek
ז יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי
יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה.
is
Z creates light and creates darkness, makes peace and creates evil; I
Jehovah, do all these.
QED share
You'll have an opportunity to tell Him that. Good luck.
shareGood luck on that actually being the case.
shareI have a lot less to lose than you.
shareIn my view you lose a lot of time and effort in the only life you have with likely pointless supplication and obeisance
shareThen you know nothing. Christ has enriched my life and blessed me in more ways than I can name. Life would be meaningless without Him.
shareThere's been quite a tone shift from flimflam in this thread. After I embarrassed him by proving his contention that God created evil according to Isaiah wrong, he flipped a switch. Now he's coming off as an uninformed troll ranting about his shallow atheistic beliefs as if they are true.
shareby proving his contention that God created evil according to Isaiah wrong,
Please link to where you did that, exactly. Was it just above where you quoted John 1:1 for some reason, which appears irrelevant to the subject and then when challenged with what the verse actually means, gave no reply but " I can't answer your question of genocide at the moment" LOL
Meanwhile, as already pointed out the objective Google translation of your earlier Greek
ז יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי
יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה.
is
Z creates light and creates darkness, makes peace and creates evil; I
Jehovah, do all these.
QED
an uninformed troll ranting
Oh dear. Rudeness instead of argument again. Do you people ever learn? share
And. Answer. Came. There. None.
shareChrist has enriched my life and blessed me in more ways than I can name.
Very impressive. I was debating with one Christian once who told me Jesus chose his girlfriends for him. Also with his flat hunting. Are you one of those so blessed?
Thank you for describing your convictions and credulity btw. You are welcome to them. share
Gracias, skavau.
shareWell, I have reminded you of the ninth commandment enough I think. I shan't anymore, troll. It's your god's rule, not mine. But keeping going; I get a better and better impression of the hypocrisy of Christian morality on each occasion.
shareName ONE person who isn't a hypocrite.
shareThank you for your admission.
I fully admit it. Do you?
shareYes; none of us are perfect, if that is what you mean. But I don't pretend to follow a moral code which highlights those deficiencies and offers punishment for lapses - while conspicuously, and repeatedly, breaking it. That is the difference between us, my friend.
share“Judge not, lest ye be judged”
I think you forgot the rest of that passage.
"But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female."
As opposed to "God made them male OR female."
God's a tranny-lover.
Jesus says to repent of your sins if you love him.
And before you attempt "but Jesus didnt say that" Yes I know the exact wording “If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
Keeping the commandments would be repenting, and Jesus says countless times "repent"
"Love thy neighbor as thyself"
Jesus was woke.
You just ignored everything I said, well done.
shareShaddup liar. You don't even believe in Jesus, troll.
sharetroll.
Let those without sin throw the first stone. share
You evidently don't know what a troll is, troll.
shareTrolling is when someone posts or comments online to deliberately upset others. Is reminding you of scripture upsetting?
shareNot a t all. I know but for the redemption of my savior, Jesus Christ, I'm a hell doomed sinner. As are you.
shareI know but for the redemption of my savior, Jesus Christ, I'm a hell doomed sinner. As are you.
Thank you for your opinion. But I have already told you what your Jesus said about people like you being back of the queue to get into heaven and all lol
share
So Mr. expert skavau, who is at the front of the queue?
shareNot trolls.
The elect of your God, apparently. Don't you ever read your Bible enough at least to know this?
Really skavau? First, I'm not a troll and second, since you love to decontextualize and misrepresent/misinterpret scripture, who is the elect and where does it mention trolls?
shareReally skavau? First, I'm not a troll
Troll: a troll is a person who posts deliberately offensive or provocative messages online.
since you love to decontextualize and misrepresent/misinterpret scripture, who is the elect?
You really ought to read your Bible more, Christian. Here is the answer to your question from your favourite link site: "the “elect of God” are those whom God has predestined to salvation. They are called the “elect” because that word denotes “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” As it stands, the concept of God electing those who will be saved (predestination) isn’t controversial. It is a biblical truth (John 6:44, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5). "
I hope that helps.
https://www.gotquestions.org/elect-of-God.html
where does it mention trolls
Already chosen to forget the wise words of the ninth commandment huh? I have told you at least of couple of times I am not a sock, and yet you continue. But those of your ilk are told ""You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" How is that working out for you then? share
There's a gigantic amount of verses in the Bible that are totally ignored by Christians.
For example next to nobody cares about Matthew 19:21 "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
You can quote these things directly from the Bible to believers, they won't recognize it as part of the Bible, let alone live by what it says.
Matthew 19:21
That verse is talking specifically about excess wealth/wealthy people. He's not talking about your average person. He doesnt want everyone to sell all their possessions to the point of being poor and homeless. That's why most people "ignore" that passage because most people arent rich. Have you ever made a single post without lying about something?
That's not true.
You shouldn't lie about the word of God.
They're not true Christians.
shareYea I know, there are as many denominations of Christianity as there are Christians, nobody holds the exact same belief as anyone else and everybody thinks all the others got it wrong.
Must be a veeeeeeeeeeery lonesome afterlife being the only true believer who made it to heaven and being alone there for all eternity.
Must be a very incompetent god, giving his message so unclear that only one single human gets it right.
It's a very clear message. "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
shareYea, unless that neighbor are the Canaanites or the Amalekites, for those the Christian god commanded his followers to commit genocide on them.
shareYou don't understand the most important values within Judaism if you're going to quote that Fascist sociopath Netanyahu.
BTW, in Judaism, establishing a Jewish homeland before the arrival of the Messiah is forbidden.
Are you often replying off topic, just to make it look as if you had something to say against a posting?
Deuteronomy 20:16–17: "In the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.”
That's in the Christian Bible TODAY and isn't a separate thing of Judaism, it's the Christian God demanding from his followers to commit genocide.
Super simple beautiful message: "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
Sad and bizarre how many who responded prefer to spread hatred and/or argue.
Btw, Amalek never happened because Jews never fled Egypt because Jews were never enslaved in Egypt. Completely made up story. I took the time to learn Jewish and Palestinian history.
Love Love Love💘 ❤ 💕 💗 ♥ 💘 💜 💛
Atheists, Wiccans, and Satanists keep saying that but it doesn't make it true.
shareWhere’s the part where he said there were 584+ genders? Or that if you cut your balls off you are a woman?
share