MovieChat Forums > Politics > How should we deal with this issue?

How should we deal with this issue?


I think that neither the right nor the left has the correct take on this issue. Both are trying to push the pendullum too far in their direction. First, yes crossing the bording illegally is wrong. But it is literally an imaginary line. I see it as a speeding ticket level violation.

Now our founding fathers were pretty smart people and the Constitution was a genius level revolutionary document. However it is not perfect. Nothing created by human hands is. They made one glaring error. They defined citizenship the same was as basically everyone else. We are NOT everyone else. We are exceptional.

I feel that if you value the freedoms that this nation stands for especially the 1st & 2nd amendment in your heart and want to be here and want to support this nation then in your heart you are already an American.

So let me make this clear. 'American' is NOT a nationality. It is a PERSPECTIVE.

And in fact there are people born here in the US who are american on paper and under the current laws but that is the extent of it. In their hearts they hate this nation and what it stands for and they don't belong here and don't deserve to be here even a tenth as much as many of those so called 'illegals'. A lot of those antifa pukes ought ot have their citizenship stripped and be deported to the leftist shithole of their choice.

So there are a number of things that need done. First we need to change the Constitutional definition of what it means to be an American citizen. Until we do that we can't fix the immigration system. Then after it IS done we need to develope a system for determining what people actually believe. A litmus test for perspective so we can screen for the people who do value our American way of life. That plus a crimnal history screening should be all that is required.

Next we need to offer amnesty. Yes, people crossed the border illegally but like I said, speeding ticket level offense so fuck it. We offer a 1 year period where people who apply and go through perspective & criminal history screening and pass are added to the tax roles. Also we incentivise the program so that people who turn in know criminals like gang and cartel members here illegally are fast tracked thru the system. Two birds, one stone. These 'illegals are given provisional citizenship and provided that they are not convicted of any crimnal activity within 7 years are granted full citizenship.

At the same time we need to strengthen our borders. Complete the wall in sections where it is easy for huge numbers to cross at once while leaving rougher sections open were wildlife can pass. We also need to establish permanent Army patrols to assist the Border Patrol. As a former soldier I can tell you that this is another two birds one stone idea because it would be excellent real world training for our troops, dealing with civilians while interdicting and if necessary eliminating drug runners.

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Borders are real.

Countries are real.

Corporations and those in control would like you to forget that but some of us would rather not.

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Countries are real. The lines between them are imaginary.

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We tried this once before. The amnesty was done. The securing the border was not.

Also, you are not really considering the implications of them not respecting our border or our laws. This type of thinking is the kind that traditionally leads to wars.


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Many "borders" are rivers. Those are definitely real.

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An imaginary line in water is no different than an imaginary line on land.

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Countries are real. The lines between them are imaginary.

How can that be true?
If a country is real it has edges

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https://i.etsystatic.com/15005605/r/il/791433/3991272170/il_fullxfull.3991272170_8r9g.jpg

Show me in this picture where the line is.

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That not a picture of a country , thats just "some land" , We knew land exists .

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Now you are just bantying semantics like a stink'n democRAT. If the line is real show it to me in the photo or break out the white flag already. I ain't playing.

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its not bantying semantics or being pedantic

"Countries are real. The lines between them are imaginary." is an out and out oxymoron - a logical fallacy.

Is the difference that you are trying to highlight that the stuff in the picture is physical stuff you could stand on , or put in jar , whereas a border isnt?

The dirt in your picture was real , but whatever country name applies to it is just as imaginary as the line it calls its border , or , if that country is "real" then so is it s border .
cant have one without the other


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That is excellent news. It means that you should have zero difficulty pointing out the line in the photo.

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Its not me who is asserting there is a line in your photo .

If you are saying there is no line because it is imaginary, then by extension countries are also imaginary.


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Stop dodging and show me the line.

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Go to Korea and say that.

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How do you know when one country ends and another country begins?

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They negotiate on where exactly the imaginary line is based on geographical coordinates.

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Maybe there's some way of permanently marking this line amking future negotiations easier. Otherwise this must have been going on for millenia.

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Invading a foreign country is a "speeding ticket" level infraction? Get bent.

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Crossing an imaginary line is a "speeding ticket" level infraction. Especially if you belong here. And if you are already an American at heart then you do.

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By that logic the survey denoting any piece of private property is "imaginary". So why don't you go bunk down in the Lincoln bedroom at the White House. When they come at you with guns drawn, tell them, "I belong here, I'm the president at heart!"

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Ukraine would make a fortune issuing speeding tickets to the Russians.

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You're illegal since your ancestors are from Europe and no Native gave them permission to be in the Americas.

Self-deport now!

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Again, the land was taken by virtue of armed conquest and treaty. Have you ever cracked a history book?

And before you pull your "but, muh noble savages!" bullshit, this was the practice of all the tribes of North America, too. They only got a taste of what they themselves practiced for thousands of years. Why are there no members of the Erie tribe remaining? It's not because of smallpox blankets and fire water, it's because the Senecas wiped them out, exterminated them. What happened to the Hurons of modern-day Ontario? The Iroquois genocided them out of existence.

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You're still here illegally since you have no permission from Native-Americans. Your attempt to justify your illegal presence has failed.

Furthermore, multiple states were part of Mexico like Texas, California, New Mexico, etc.. Just given them back.

European interference and disease have everything to do with what happened to the Erie and Huron. I suggest you reread your history books.

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So you are a firm believer in the "noble savage" myth. How quaint.

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We don't need their permission. They are savages and are beneath us. This land is ours. And by ours, I mean White Europeans.
The savages should be grateful that we didn't exterminate all of them. We were too generous and compassionate, now we have to deal with their whining.

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How should we deal with this issue? Dilution. Export Mexicans, import Filipinos, Thais, Koreans, Vietnamese, Christian Arabs, etc. Stop importing Chinese/Indians/Muslims.

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My understanding is that birth-right citizenship is deeply embedded in common law & us law. I could be wrong about that. But in any case, perhaps the best approach is an amendment clarifying that citizenship extends exclusively from parentage or formal naturalization following upon legal residency, if that is the consensus.

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Fuck off with this "speeding ticket" bullshit.

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Given that most of the people crossing are the type who are already American at heart, what crime would you compare it with?

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American at heart??? If that was true, they would've done it legally, the right way. If that was even remotely true, they'd be paying income tax. Rather than being dependent on the system to the tune of billions of dollars per year. They do not contribute a single fucking thing but crime and dependency.

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"If that was true, they would've done it legally, the right way."
No. While most true Americans will follow a working system they are just as likely to buck a broken one and our immigration system is definitely broken.
Americans don't like paying taxes. Never have. Offer them citizenship. That would be worth paying tax for. Otherwise they will tell you to get F'ed just like I would.
"crime and dependency"
That is a lie. The vast majority are decent people. Crime statistics prove it. Even though over 10 million have entered the rising crime rate does not match it. It shows that only a small portion are commiting the crimes. If we offer fast track citizenship to those who turn in the bad actors we could clean that issue up rapidly.

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Dipshit, if they're not paying taxes, they're a liability and a huge one. Clueless moron.

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So vet them, make them citizens and put them on the tax rolls. It's not that hard.

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How the fuck do you vet people running wild across the country? That's the whole point of LEGAL immigration. You can't be this stupid.....oh, I forgot.

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First you fix the system itself. Streamline it. You'd also have to develope a means of determining perspective. Discovering what a person truely believes and values. That will be the most difficult part but we live in a capitalist society so farm the work out to private companies and for a fee they will figure out a way to vet peoples beliefs.

Then you offer conditional amnesty for those who register into the system and pass the perspective testing. After a few months of that offer to fast track applications for those who turn in those who refuse to register for vetting to ICE.

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No, first you close the fucking border. Then you do as you've always done, enforce the law and make them endure the process. Then work on deporting every single person who entered illegally. They're literally criminals.

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Make them endure the process.
The shear stupidity of that statement, basically an admission that it is broken and a refusal to consider fixing it roled into one. I know that democRATS are the retards but when they claim that it is the republican who are stupid it is people like you that they point to as examples.

News flash. The barn doors are open and the horses done run away. Closing the doors now is a half measure at best. Sure we should better secure the boarder but for the right reasons and xenophobia is not one of them. And you can drop the stupid idea of tracking down and deprting 10 million people scattered randomly across the country. That would literally bankrupt us trying and we'd fail.

The fact is that 90-95 out of every 100 of them are people who would make good citizens. If you offer them citizenship in return for helping smoke out the 5-150% of bad apples then not only have you saved enough money to make a sizable dent on the national debt but you now have more tax payers on the rolls.

An you can stow your 'literally criminals' rabble rousing. It is weak tea. Crossing illegally is no where near as serious as rape or muder or any serious felony I can think of. It's not even as bad as most high level misdeminors. The punishment is being put on a bus bound for somewhere you don't want to go but don't have to stay. Traffic tickets are a bigger slap on the wrist so to compare it to a speeding ticket offense may even be an overstatement when compared to the penalty. I think you sound like one of those stodgy "I have always obeyed the law therefore expect everyone else to do so at all times!" stick up his ass sorts. Stubborn, unimaginative, legalistic, willing to ignore the spirit of the law in the name of cranking down vise-like on the letter.

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You need to open your eyes and recognize that there are only two types of people in this world. Those who embrace the ideals of this American experiment and everyone else. And those who embrace those high ideals are your brothers at heart no matter where they are from.

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Crossing a border doesn’t mean stepping over a line, and then it’s over. They are still somewhere that they are not supposed to be. If someone broke into to your house would you say oh well, they got in, nothing I can do about that now. No, the first step is that they have to get out, because they are illegally trespassing.

If you don’t enforce your laws, then you don’t have any. There is no point in discussing soft policies, because they don’t mean anything.

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There is also no point in trying to track down and deport well over 10 million people. You want to pay for that? I sure as hell dont. We are already over 33 trillion in debt. They want to stay? Fine, let them buy in and own part of that debt, Make the good ones citizen and put them on the tax rolls. Conservatives need to beat democRATS to the punch on this one but they are damn near as stubborn as the lefty lunatics who insist that socialism can work. They simply refuse to accept these people because they crossed an imaginary line. Let me tell you something. If our imigration system wasn't screwed up 6 ways from sunday you might have an argument. But it is and I can't find it in me to fault them for looking at that broken system and saying "screw that" because that is a typical American response as well. As Americans we tend to follow the laws and systems that are in place but we also tend to buck and rebel against those that are broken. Just another way in which these people are already American at heart.

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You want to pay for that?


Yes. In the long run it will be worth it, and our kids, grandkids, and great grand kids will be thanking us.

You're problem is that you are basing your arguments on feelings not reality.

If you want people to stay, then there has to be restrictions while they become legal citizens...like voting. Are you in favor of a voting ID/blank paper ballot system?

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Running up the debt and potentially doubling it is worth it? You are delusional. And you'd never get them all anyway. In fact you'd get barely a fraction and the rest would be wasted or stolen by politicians. And no. I am no stink'n democRAT. I don't base my arguements on feelings. Unless of course we are discussing coffee. Anyone who thinks that vile revolting bitter stuff is good is a mutate who needs to be removed from the gene pool. But I digress, yes make them citizens put them on the tax rolls. And yes, you need an ID to buy liquor or drive a car so you should need one to vote.

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Ugh, not this shit again.

Do you know what happens when your privileged American ass crosses a border into another country illegally?

THEY FUCKING DEPORT YOU. You don't get to just setup shop and call them racist until they cater to you.

Borders are real. Crossing them illegally is a crime. How hard is this to understand?

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Other countries are not us. They are not exceptional. WE ARE. Yes crossing illegally is a crime. What we seem to disagree upon is how serious.

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"Other countries are not us. They are not exceptional. WE ARE."

How long do you thiink that exceptionality will last when you dont vet ANYONE you let in this country? People who dont share your idea of peace and civility, what happens then? Becuase it will if we keep at this rate.

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It would be so nice if people like you actually read the post you are replying to. I know you didn't because vetting WAS discussed.

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My point still stands. BIGGER PIC : that exceptionality you are so proud of will cease to exist because of our border policies right now.

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You point falls flat on its face. And now I'm going to kick it around a bit just to add insult to injury.

That Exceptionalism is based primarily on the freedoms of the 1st and 2nd Amendment. Filling this nation with people who cherish them can only make us stronger. Deporting those who hate & fear what those freedoms represent would also make us stronger.

I think that not only should we make those already here who cherish those freedoms citizens but we should put out a call to all the nations of the world calling for such people to come and for those who hate freedom to stay away.

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