It's a simple matter of disagreement, then, which, as someone who advocates for third parties, I'm certainly not new to.
To put a blanket state over all repeated third party voters as "they don't understand their power as voters," in my opinion, does a disservice to the millions of Americans who are sick and tired, rightfully so, of the two-party system. Naturally, you may disagree, and that's fine, but people have the right to vote Democratic or Republican if they want to, just as they have the right to vote otherwise.
I never understood how voting third party sometimes isn't seen as a show of power.
Imagine if a third party candidate got 11% of the total vote. Sure, the Democrat or Republican still wins, but ignoring that 11%, or saying that the candidate in question didn't have a realistic chance to win, isn't properly tackling the issue.
Increasted third party or independent voting shares would definitely have the ability to send a message to the major parties that people are tired. Whether the parties would care to listen or not, and whether the media would cover third party and independent voters with any respect whatsoever, is entirely another question, no doubt about that.
Republicans are atrocious when it comes to voting rights, no doubt there. Democrats aren't amazing either - they restrict people's abilities to vote for the candidate they want to vote for, which is fundamentally anti-democratic. (Which is, of course, in reference to the Democratic Party using lawsuits to remove the Green Party from multiple ballots over the years).
I don't have a problem saying Republicans are worse on the issue, but it's not like the Democrats are shining examples of the right way to approach voter rights.
Of course, I entirely disagree with you when it comes to your take on third party voters (and this is, on a side-note, why my original post didn't focus just on Republicans and Democrats, but on the Libertarian Party also), but it's an honest difference in views
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brux (14724)
2 years ago
Not reading that. I know you third party people are passionate about your boutique politicians, but it's a cold-hard mathematical fact that you are wrong.
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JigsawX (265)
2 years ago
I don't blame you for sticking to your guns, and I can agree that's not the point of the thread, but naturally, you think I'm wrong, and I think I'm not. If we can't have an actual discussion about it, then so be it, but I think that's a shame.
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brux (14724)
2 years ago
You have your opinion, and I respect that. A lot of people think 3rd parties are just like another TV channel or another flavor of ice cream; and what you are giving up by voting 3rd party is almost insignificant, but statistically you are wrong.
But there is no real reason to argue about it. When you add up millions of people doing that, it got Bush elected in 2000 which arguably changed the world and the American economy massively for the worse. Similar thing with Trump, but no so much 3rd party.
It made Republicans crazy in that Ross Perot kept Bush from being re-elected because Repubicans defeceted to vote for Perot and it got Clinton elected.
What is there really to discuss. I stuck with the facts and agreed you have the right to do it. What else can you say? Can you give me a good reason for voting 3rd party in the real election?
Are you here to try to convince voters on one side or the other to vote 3rd party?
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JigsawX (265)
2 years ago
I was just here to talk the 2024 presidential candidates. I know my own views are controversial, and I've no interest in pushing them on others.
If someone wants to vote Democratic, that's their right. If someone wants to vote GOP, that's their right. Same with Libertarian, Green, etc., etc. In relation to 2016, I know plenty of people who I respect that voted for Clinton, for instance. There are some whom I respect that went Trump, some who went Johnson, some who just sat out altogether. It's all an individual choice, and I respect people's rights to make those choices.
So in short, I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I just wanted to shine a light on the various candidates from the various parties running, because I personally find it interesting, and thought others may be interested to, from Democrats/Republicans to those who support other parties (Libertarians, Constitution Party members, what have you).
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brux (14724)
2 years ago
OK, but my only point is that people who vote 3rd party have a chance to shoot their political values in the foot by doing so.
You can do whatever you want. But, if you agree more with Republicans or Democrats, even if you agree 100% with some other marginal whacko candidate, you are being more true to your values by voting for the major party. Add to that no one sees or cares if you vote 3rd party.
If people do it to express their identity, I'd just say, that is not the purpose of voting. Voting is about expressing your political interest where it can do the most good.
If the most good for you is to be aloof and spend your vote expressing disdaiin for the major parties, I'm with your emotionally, but that is not the way I chose to spend my vote. The difference however is on the order of 1 / 3.5 x 10^8.
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JigsawX (265)
2 years ago
I understand your viewpoints. Believe me, I spoke with a lot of people in 2015 when I said I wasn't voting for Clinton, and I spoke with a lot of people in 2019 when I told people I wasn't voting for Biden.
I'll be happy to have a discussion about this, because I think people very much see and care about third party votes, especially in close elections. Look at how Nader voters and Stein voters are blamed for Republican presidents. Democrats definitely cared, and I definitely think people see and care about those third party and independent voters.
It all comes down to strategy (not emotion, at least in my case). Strategically, in my opinion, decades of the "lesser of two evils" argument led directly to a Clinton vs. Trump situation, two highly unpopular candidates, and if we keep doing it, nothing will ever get better.
By no means do I think those who disagree are foolish, because it's a simple difference in strategy. I vote the way I think is best for this country and this world, and I imagine that's exactly how most people vote.
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brux (14724)
2 years ago
> Look at how Nader voters and Stein voters are blamed for Republican presidents. Democrats definitely cared, and I definitely think people see and care about those third party and independent voters.
Yeah, not understanding the realities of voting in America works to go 180 degrees opposite to what the majority of people want in almost all cases.
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