Those of you who want this to be reality in the US, maybe you can answer my question. On average, those countries with it such as Australia, the UK and Germany, the folks in the upper percentile of income pay an additional 20% or more in income tax that goes towards the health care system. Total income tax can be well over 50%. While those towards the bottom pay little to nothing. I've been self employed for 17yrs and paying my own health insurance all that time. So the implementation of universal healthcare would increase my income taxes significantly. Way more than what I'm paying now. If we all benefit and all share equally in the misery of such a system, please explain why some people should have to pay for the healthcare of people who bring nothing to the table?
You expect anyone who DOESN'T to have anything productive to say?
Nope, just some reflexively shitty lie to show how typically shallow and hateful they are. BAU
The implication there is the the rich "work"? Most of the people who are super-rich and own and control our political system play money and power games and dole out rewards to people who do stuff like Rudy Giuliani did for Trump ... that is, not really work, but extend their corruption.
Many of the poorest people in the country work the hardest, and of course pre-Civil War those who worked the hardest got nothing for it.
I'm glad it was pointed out above that math is not your strongest attribute. A wise millionaire once said, "everybody wants what I have but few are willing to do what I had to do to get it". Sorry but it's a liberal fantasy that "rich don't work".
It's also rather stupid to think that all "rich" are like Jeff Bezos or Paris Hilton. In fact, "rich" to Obama was anyone making $250k or more.
Since I'm using myself as an example here, only in non-specific terms, I can you tell you that I "work" for every fucking penny I make. I also worked 365 days a year for the first 12yrs I was in this industry. You ever go 12yrs without a vacation or even a weekend off? In fact, it's July 4th and I'm working right now.
You're obviously entirely ignorant of US history but then, the entirety of liberal ideology requires an extreme level of ignorance.
> I'm glad it was pointed out above that math is not your strongest attribute.
Again I have to point it out that you imbeciles just make stuff up about people. In university I aced all algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, analytic geometry, linear algebra, statistics, differential equations, complex variables - and physics - and business math.
When you start out with BS like that you don't deserve to have your lies even bothered to be read.
All you've done is lie and insult about me personally. Neither myself or anyone else cares about what you think of me. It's all obviously made up garbage from a vicious antisocial psychopath. It is a waste of time to interact with you, and always annoying when I see your posts/comments because they are all like this.
I'm sure you are one of the biggest "gibs me" here, along with being a shameless liar and hateful provocateur. Nothing good to offer - ever. Just a series of shitty biased comments not worthy of a thoughtful 2nd grader.
Lefties whine about lack of universal healthcare yet support diversity which is the reason the US doesn't have universal healthcare. The biggest reasons for why the US doesn't have universal healthcare are Jews and Blacks.
This has already been debunked many times. Notice how people like yourself do not think about society as a whole, you think of only yourself. If a rich person pays more they can still afford their bills, eat and live just fine. The police, fire department and public schools are all paid by taxes. Healthcare is the only thing that the public needs among that group which is privatized. You automatically assume that people who can't afford healthcare are lazy. Did it ever occur to you that there are poor people in this world who can't afford to pay their bills despite working hard?
Second answer the question. Is it every man for himself then?
we may as well stop publicly funding roads then and elemtnary and high schools. republicans literally want a dystopian future where the rich live in golden gated communities and everyone else starves.
That is a good example, but it doesn't help your cause. I live just outside Pittsburgh, PA and funds to fix the roads are often wasted away. Government waste is a huge problem. Hell, we even seen it with the covid funds.
So, I'll turn the tables on you and ask who will prevent large scale waste under the universal system you want?
The main problem with government incompetence is that it is to the oligarchs advantage for the government to be seen as incompetent, so they pick directors of agencies who sabotage the government programs and blame government for it.
There is a very excellent book by Thomas Frank called "The Wrecking Crew: How Conservatives Rule" that explains this perfectly well. You can see it in the decisions Republicans ( who are not even Conservatives anymore ) make, like Trump, appointing loyalists or incompetents to work for him to expand his control.
American cannot have a country with a vicious army of saboteurs trying to tear it down from the inside ... that is something I don't think we can come to terms with until things breakdown.
Another thoughtful article ( podcast ) is the PBS Fresh Air episode many years back on the retrospective of Sargent Shriver's death. Shriver founded the Peace Corp, and I believe it was Head Start. The programs in the US were opposed by the "bosses" in the political system, BECAUSE THEY WORKED, and they created a political base for democratic change.
That is not what you did in your comment. You claimed this author wrote a good book about this topic, then go on to explain that he is one sided in his attacks. Unless of course your description was wrong. If its not and he fails to blame our two party system, why should I read it based on what you've said to be? We don't need hyper partisanship like that and I want nothing to do with it.
1. roads are government spending contracted out to private companies. I dont know your individual example but if theres an issue, ask the private companies.
2. universal systems are objectively cheaper than your private one. prices are inflated for profits, and a massive single government system has the ability, and motivation, to negotiate far cheaper drug prices
It is certainly not the fault of a private company when the funds, that were collected by taxes, were wasted away before any project could actually start.
I agree on your second point, however, under no circumstances will the US ever rid themselves of for profit care. Not even if they started using a universal system.
You haven't turned any tables on me, you're now deflecting. Case in point you have absolutely no clue what health system I actually support, you just assumed.
1. again you made an anecdotal claim. iv never heard of any particular waste in road paving. its a pretty pretty straight forward project.
2. the question isnt whether the US will. its about waste and which is better
YOU can whine and play the victim. or answer. theres no deflection. ive given you 4 universal systems vs the US private system. your claim was " I'll turn the tables on you and ask who will prevent large scale waste under the universal system you want?"
I demonstrated how there isnt large scale wasnt. in fact its twice as efficient and non wasteful. often with better outcomes overall. its not deflecting, you latched on to one part and are now playing the victim.
You haven't addressed anything I've said, all you do is deflect. Waste happens in all aspects of our government. Road projects was only one aspect, I even mentioned covid money being stolen above.
You did not demonstrate how there isn't large scale waste, only that other nations for profit is either nonexistent or extremely low compared to our system.
The US system is flawed, but under our current leaders, from both parties, I do not trust them to handle a universal system. We have a similar system for our veterans and that isn't going so well. What do you think will happen when you add another 300 million people to that system?
yes and waste happens in private industry too. no system is perfect. so if you make that claim, demonstrate that its far worse in government. where's all that government waste in France, Australia, the UK and Canadas public healthcare systems?
""You did not demonstrate how there isn't large scale waste, only that other nations for profit is either nonexistent or extremely low compared to our system."
ITS LITERALLY A PUBLIC SYSTEM. with the same of better outcomes vs the US. at half the cost. wtf are you talking about?
wow you are hopeless buddy. stay dumb as fuck. regurgitating the conservative nonsense "we cant have da nice things cause da 330 million people!!"
"You did not demonstrate how there isn't large scale waste, only that other nations for profit is either nonexistent or extremely low compared to our system"
You basically summed it up. I find it funny how they have no sympathy for people dying who can't afford their medical bills. They have more sympathy for a rich person losing a tad more when they can still afford to eat pay their bills etc.
dont you know? rich people are the biggest victims and most persecuted group in America. they've trained these sad little poor and middle class losers to defend them
That assumption is dismissed. This is the avocado toast argument. The reason you can't afford your healthcare is because you buy too much avocado toast... My point stands. Not everyone who can't afford it is living high on the hog or beyond their means. Sometimes you just can't afford when you are making a lower wage.
I assume nothing. The reason is irrelevant. The fact is that in countries with universal healthcare, the people on the bottom pay little or nothing. While others are left to pick up the tab. In this case, we're not talking about a slight increase. We're talking about an additional 20% in income taxes. Taxes that, despite the bullshit you believe from CNN, people do not get out of paying.
Let's put it another way, you expect me to work 2.4 months a year for nothing? I already work longer than that just to pay my regular income taxes. Are you willing to work two and a half months to pay someone else's way? You liberals are awfully charitable with other people's money.
No, I don't want a dystopian future where power and wealth are dominated by the few. Are you that stupid? I want everyone to prosper. I just expect them to work for it. I expect YOU to pay for YOUR healthcare. In fact, a dystopian future where the many are dominated by the few must be what you want. Because making the freeloaders dependent on the "evil rich" will result in exactly that. Power that YOU give away. Entitlement is a disease.
Yes you did assume are you an idiot? You said the only people who complain about healthcare in the US are the freeloaders. Is that not an assumption and generalization? That indicates that a successful person can't possibly dislike the US healthcare system. So no you did assume.
See once again you have no retort for the fire department, police and public schools. That is my money that goes into those things. I do not use any of that stuff. Therefore you are being awfully charitable with my money expecting me to pay for the things I do not use. You have no retort for this because it undermines your argument. So what you are saying then is that it is every man for himself. If that is the case I should not be paying for the fire department, police or public schools since I do not use them.
Yes that is what you want. People like myself who do want universal healthcare are not asking for a free ride and to be living in a mansion sipping on a margarita. People want to not be screwed over by insurance companies and be able to afford their medical bills. A rich person's life will not change one bit where as it would make the poor be able to get somewhere in life. Since you expect people to pay for their healthcare, I expect you to pay for your own fire department visits, police visits and public schools. I do not use those things and should not be financing other people's problems.
Wrong and wrong headed. Critical thinking is obviously not your strongest attribute. What you still do not seem to comprehend is that due to the nature and amount of the taxes involved, EVERYONE pays for police and fire and EVERYONE benefits. NOT everyone pays for universal healthcare and NOT everyone would benefit. Some people will pay more, some will pay a lot more and they will get less out of it.
"Freeloader" does not assume anything more than people who do not pay their way. If you have a full time job but do not make enough money to pay the same percentage of your income towards income tax or universal healthcare, you may be working your ass off but if you benefit from programs you don't not pay for, you're still a freeloader.
A free ride is exactly what you're asking for. You are championing the freeloaders but you don't have the constitution to admit it. You want other people to pay YOUR way.
A rich person's life won't change one bit? Your complete and utter lack of perspective is only over-shadowed by your sense of entitlement.
No you are an idiot and I have exposed your logic. Everyone pays for the police and fire department, also public schools. I like how you conveniently left that one off of your list. No not everyone benefits from that only the people who use it benefit from it. Everyone benefits from a healthier society so no you are wrong. However though going off of your logic I should not be paying public schools since I do not use them and do not benefit from them. I do not use the police or fire department either.
You made an assumption. You assumed that people who do not like the healthcare system are freeloaders. You do realize that there are people who pay their bills and make it fine that do not like the healthcare system in the US correct? How are they freeloaders when they pay their bills and still think it is a scam? That was an assumption made by you. Also no free loading is when you contribute nothing to society at all. When people work hard and still can't make it that is not freeloading.
Nope if I was asking for a free ride that would be not expecting to work and just live freely on everything. That is not what is occurring here. See you do not have the courage to say it is every man for himself. I would respect your stance if you were honest. Society has never been run that way. It is a selfish way to see things. If it is supposed to run that way then we need to only pay for the services we use. Which means I should not be paying for the fire department, public schools or police since I do not use them.
A rich person would still be able to eat, pay their bills and live luxuriously. I am not going to feel bad about that. The rich are not oppressed and I am tired of you pretending like they are.
Your rhetoric about police/fire/education is retarded. Uh yeah, we all benefit from police taking criminals off the streets, managing traffic offenders, cracking down on drunk drivers, etc., etc., ad nauseum. It's stupid beyond words to suggest any differently. Yes, we all benefit from the education of children. No, I don't particularly like paying towards it since I don't have children but I can live with the paltry sum I pay in property taxes every year. I'm not going to argue that particular issue any further because you ignore my points and just double down on stupid.
You make really stupid assumptions. Universal healthcare is not going to result in a generally healthier population. In fact it pretty much universally sucks. I don't know where you idiots get the idea that it's better, because it ain't. I didn't say anything about people who do not "like" the healthcare system. I'm talking about people who would not pay into "universal heathcare". I don't "like it" either but giving control to the gov't is not the answer either. I'm sorry, I don't care how "hard" you work. If you benefit from a healthcare system you do not pay into, you're a freeloader. That is literally the definition of it.
I am honest. I am always honest and deliberate in my language. Yes, I expect people to pay their own way, if they are able. No, I do not believe you improve someone's life by giving them something they should earn for themselves.
And your rhetoric on healthcare is foolish also. We all benefit from a healthier society. Mental health gets taken more seriously less outbursts from crazy people and we can get a better handle on virus information if we have a healthy society. Your point about police is dismissed because you know I dismantled your entire argument. So the fact that you refuse to go further I will take a concession.
No if that were true you would not have made a blanket statement and said anybody key word there anybody who complains about the healthcare is a freeloader. You were too stupid to realize that by saying that you were incorrect. You are now trying to backpedal. No it does not universally sucks. If that were true why are the countries that have it rated higher than us? Why are other countries higher in education adopt that system? They do it because it is more efficient.
No you are dishonest. People still would be paying their own way it would just make it easier for them to live their normal life.
You're literally too dumb to argue with. I'm tired of the endless straw arguments and having to explain every point three times to no avail. People like you are the reason why I vote "no", to the idea of paying an exorbitant amount of my money to YOUR healthcare.
You are trash. I find it funny you stick up for rich corporations that couldn't care less if you kicked the bucket today. Keep boot licking boot licker.
I know the type you are. You do not care about people who can't afford their medical bills. You do not care about people who get cancer and can't afford the bill. You would rather protect a rich person than a person who works hard and can't survive. It is okay though trash like you will die out and the world will be better off.
Sorry but the only sociopath here is you, evidenced by the post I'm responding to. You really don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. But I understand your 'need' to twist things like you just did.
It is not that I don't care or that I favor one socio-economic group over another. I've been in a position where I could not afford my medical bills and did not have insurance. I favor people who take personal responsibility for themselves over those who prefer to be dependent on the government. The former chooses to make their own way in life and those people deserve temporary help, while the other chooses the safety of servitude and they do not deserve help, temporary or otherwise, for they do not help themselves. It's just a new version of slavery. Therein lies the difference between true charity and welfare. The difference between you and I is that I prefer to make my own choice as to when and where to give. You prefer to take from others and make that choice for them. Which makes you a whole lot closer to "trash".
No I am not the sociopath you are now projecting. Oh I know what I am talking about, it is you who is fooled. You think that anyone who struggles must be a freeloader and lazy. It is okay though the poor do more for this country than scum like you do.
I do not believe your story for one second. There are people who take responsibility for their actions but simply have unfortunate circumstances happen to them. Cancer treatments will bankrupt even people who make good money. If you are middle class or lower it is basically a death sentence. There is no way to pay for it. Sometimes you need more than temporary help. If you decided to make your own choice you would want the fire department, police and public schools to be privatized. By your own logic you are freeloading because you are using stuff other people are paying into. You are taking my money since I do not use any of those services. Since I do not use them I am paying for something I do not benefit from.
You are trash which is good you have no children. Good the bloodline will die with you and I will not be sad for it. I have no time for boot lickers like yourself. Keep on watching foxnews and stay ignorant.
Typical conservative. Deny, dismiss, deflect or dumbfound. I want the money I work for. I shouldn't be paying for the police for you. It's every man for himself so let's apply that logic everywhere.
You're not paying for the police for me, dipshit. MY property taxes pay for MY police. If you want to live police-free, you're free to move to Mexico. Or Portland.
Logic doesn't work with Lil ' Craigy.
He suffered irreparable brain damage when a pair of vice grips, in lieu of birthing forceps, was used to extricate him from the womb.
Let me ask this, how do you justify it to people who lose their job because of your 20% tax increase? The less money I have, the fewer people I can employ.
You know how many people stay in a job at a corporation because they can't afford the private insurance? Also I'm not answering your question since you side stepped mine.
Someone as stupid as him doesn't own his own business. If he does yikes... A lemonade stand sounds right though. My guess maybe 3 people show up half the time.
I did answer, several times. You just don't like my answer, or my questions. You don't answer because you can't, or you don't like how those answers make you sound.
The whole thing is idiotic on premise. Just your feeble attempt to avoid answering my question. Which you really already did elsewhere. Which was what I already knew.
Hillbilly? Man, that was a real crusher. Not sure how I'll sleep tonight. I sincerely hope you're just a bored teenager because it would sadden me to know that an adult was this dumb.
Oh no it is quite obvious you are a boot licker. I actually call out corruption where I see it. You will defend your right wing camp no matter what they do. I do not deny the left can be wrong but you deny the right is ever wrong about anything.
You may believe that but it doesn't make it true. I don't "defend a camp". My thoughts and beliefs are my own. In this context, my belief is that my income is my own and you are not entitled to it.
No you are a shill it is quite apparent. My income is my own also. Which is why I should not be paying for you your police and fire department. That is my money.
"A rich person would still be able to eat, pay their bills and live luxuriously."
This is where you really have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about. This is pure ignorance, class envy and petty stupidity. How many "rich people" do you know? We're not talking about a paltry sum. We're talking about 20% of a person's income, who is already paying 30% in income taxes. We're talking about some of the hardest working people in American who already pay DOUBLE their "fair share" of income taxes. DOUBLE! That's fine, if you believe that the most successful and hardest working people in the country should have to shoulder the weight of people who do not work at all or are unable to pay their own healthcare. A wise man once said that you cannot tax your way to prosperity. At some point, you run out of other people's money.
Oh I know plenty of rich people. Also another assumption by you not every person who is rich worked hard to get it. Sometimes they inherit that money. You also assume that they people they are shouldering do not work at all. Sometimes as I have already pointed out people can't afford their bills since they do not make enough. A wise man also once said
Whenever the government provides opportunities in privileges for white people and rich people they call it “subsidized” when they do it for Negro and poor people they call it “welfare.” The fact that is the everybody in this country lives on welfare. Suburbia was built with federally subsidized credit. And highways that take our white brothers out to the suburbs were built with federally subsidized money to the tune of 90 percent. Everybody is on welfare in this country. The problem is that we all to often have socialism for the rich and rugged free enterprise capitalism for the poor. That’s the problem.
> So the implementation of universal healthcare would increase my income taxes significantly.
No evidence of that, and in fact it is used as another gut level lie to keep the country doing the wrong thing.
How much have you been paying for your health care? Do you resent the sick people you are paying for if you are healthy too?
Minus the BS in your post, I think it is a reasonable question. Most explanations of this say it is a human right and most people in most country decide it is worth it to have a country full of healthy people. It is like a lot of things, it is an investment, and an education population increases the overall GDP of a country. It can even be measured that if you give children childcare and pre-K social experience they do better in school and are not the liabilities to society.
You Republicans are so focused on trying to punish the people you don't like while taking for yourselves that you fail to see the big picture, and that is what has dropped American to dead last in most metrics in the developed world.
"No evidence of that, and in fact it is used as another gut level lie to keep the country doing the wrong thing."
Bullshit. Do you think I make this stuff up? It is verifiable fact that people in countries with universal healthcare pay upwards of 20% or more of their income in additional taxes, to pay for healthcare.
Personal responsibility is not punishment. You people say and think the dumbest shit. Why do you want people to be dependent on the government titty? You don't end up in a country full of healthy people. You end up in a country full of freeloaders and dependents. You fucking idiots still have not learned that you cannot improve someone's life by giving them something they should earn for themselves. Has welfare improved the ghetto, or made it worse?
Again, to show your dishonesty, you don't mean charitable, there is nothing wrong with being charitable. Even read the Bible or do you just use as a hammer to pretend self-righteousness on issues like abortion?
What you mean is wasteful, but if there is any group that is wasteful in this country is the Republicans, and the establishment Democrats who are basically virtual Republicans ... where actual Republicans used to be circa 2000.
All of your comments are like this. Dishonest, vile in tone, wrong on facts, and using weasel words to try to push an opinion. That's why there is little point in talking to you fools, because you don't and cannot even listen. You only exist online to a mindless troll following Republican propaganda rules.
If we could get rid of all the Republican trolls here, I have a feeling the Republican point of view might be better represented and sound more reasonable and amenable to actual negotiation and compromise.
Because you are dumb and everything you believe is a lie. You sit here and spew bullshit all day when you really know NOTHING about conservatives. You just repeat whatever CNN tells you to.
As always, the megaphone for MAGA claims everyone else is repeating propaganda.
Can't fuckin' refute someone who says the sky is falling while we stand around wondering what the hell you are blithering about. Lying about is more accurate.
If this country was a democracy - or a republic, we would already have Medicare For All, because upwards of 70% of all Americans support this because their family, friends and neighbors are dying and/or going bankrupt because the current system.
Universal healthcare would cost an average of 3 trillion a year. Total income taxes collected in 2019 were 1.6 trillion.
So we’d have to raise peoples taxes 300%.
And the rich would still pay for their own private healthcare because the public system would be worthless trash. Just like education. And housing. And security.
You're actually making a case for universal healthcare.
Americans spent 4.1 trillion dollars on healthcare in the year 2020.
Yeah, those things are worthless trash because Republicans have been saying that government doesn't work for 40 years and when they get in power, they do everything to demonstrate that. A self-fulfilling prophecy. Their goal is to turn everything to the private sector.
Fun fact: origin of the word privatization stems from the Economist Magazine, which used the term to describe Nazi economic policy. No wonder every single conservative and economic liberal in the Reichstag voted for Hitler to become a dictator.
No, taxes wouldn't have to be raised 300%, this is sheer lunacy. You'd pay a little more taxes but pay a lot less for healthcare, which would be a net benefit. The way it stands, the useless insurers are deciding who lives and dies based on how much money they have (the real death panels!) and profiting from it.
That's how it works in every so-called first-world country, fascist moron.
Obamacare was gutted and watered down because it needed to pass. Then the Republicans struck down the individual mandate a few years ago.
"THE HEALTHCARE WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR AND THAT WE ARE ACTIVELY SABOTAGING DOESN'T WORK! HA, TOLD YOU SO! HURR DURR, I AM VERY SMART, GO BACK TO GRADE SCHOOL NOW."
Now the real death panels are the private insurance companies, who decide who lives and dies. Who knows how many people have died due to lack of healthcare or substandard care. I know a fascist like you doesn't care at all.
Although healthcare expenditure per capita is higher for the United States than any other country, over 37 million Americans are entirely without health insurance and 41 million more have inadequate access to care. Whereas ongoing efforts to repeal the Affordable Care Act would exacerbate healthcare inequities, a universal system, such as that proposed in the Medicare for All Act (MAA), has the potential to transform the availability and efficiency of American healthcare. Taking into account both the costs of coverage expansion as well as savings that would be achieved through the MAA, we calculate that a single-payer, universal healthcare system is likely to lead to a 13% savings in national healthcare expenditure, equivalent to over $450 billion annually. The entire system could be funded with less financial outlay than is currently incurred by employers and households through healthcare premiums, as well as existing government allocations. This shift to single-payer healthcare would provide the greatest relief to lower-income households. Furthermore, we estimate that ensuring healthcare access for all Americans would save over 68,000 lives and 1.73 million life-years every year.
Let us know when the Feds have ever come in on budget or under budget. Hint the answer is they never do
Universal crap care would cost 10 trillion and be such garbage anyone who could afford it would be forced to buy real healthcare provided by the private sector.
Just like they do with education. And security.
Or take Californias speed train to no where. 40 billion originally projected is now over 100 billion with no end in site. The reality is it’ll cost a trillion to complete and no one will use it.
But yeah, government healthcare will be great! Just like Obamacare provided free healthcare for all. Free as in a 500% increase insurance premiums.
That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. CBO already estimated that universal healthcare would cost Americans far less than it does now. The US spends more on healthcare per capita than any other country on planet Earth. That's without 37 million Americans even being covered and 41 million Americans not being adequately covered.
The fragmented and inefficient healthcare system in the United States leads to many preventable deaths and unnecessary costs every year. Universal healthcare could have alleviated the mortality caused by a confluence of negative COVID-related factors. Incorporating the demography of the uninsured with age-specific COVID-19 and nonpandemic mortality, we estimated that a single-payer universal healthcare system would have saved 212,000 lives in 2020 alone. We also calculated that US$105.6 billion of medical expenses associated with COVID-19 hospitalization could have been averted by a Medicare for All system.
Despite having only 4% of the world's population, US had 16% of all coronavirus deaths.
"In 2019, Americans will pay $3.4 trillion in federal taxes and $1.8 trillion in state and local taxes, for a total bill of over $5.2 trillion, or 29 percent of the nation’s income."