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RustyShacklefurd's Replies
No, they don't. That's not what's going on. Just read the article so you understand what's really happening in the West Bank.
"Genocide" in the West Bank?! What "genocide"?! The West Bank has had a continually growing population for over half a century. I already explained to you why what's happening in Gaza isn't genocide so the deaths of 500 people in the West Bank is that much more clearly not genocide. This has nothing to do with stealing land. Israelis don't get control of land just because Palestinians die. There have in fact been 295 Palestinian terrorist attacks in the West Bank since October 7th. The following article explains the truth about the violence in the West Bank:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/fraudulent-case-against-violent-settlers
Palestinian terrorism in the West Bank doesn't magically disappear just because you find it inconvenient.
TL:DR
Saying that proves that you're wrong about everything!
Creating a Palestinian state in the West Bank is certainly not simple. There are many obstacles to establishing such a state:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/two-state-delusion
Does establishing such a state mean Israel just leaves the West Bank and then lets the Palestinians figure out how to organize their state? What if the West Bank Palestinian leadership refuses to negotiate a West Bank-only state as long as Hamas is in charge of Gaza or as long as Israel occupies Gaza? A West Bank-only state won't make it any easier to come to an agreement on refugees. And then there's the problem of the Palestinians seeing the "2-state solution" as just the start of fully conquering Israel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO%27s_Ten_Point_Program
People weren't "butchered" in the West Bank without reason. There was a large increase in Palestinian violence in the West Bank after October 7th. There's been 295 Palestinian terrorist attacks in the West Bank since then:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/fraudulent-case-against-violent-settlers
Hamas can only be eliminated in Gaza if the IDF completes its military operation in Gaza. It's my understanding that you want the IDF to stop its military operation in Gaza.
Who the hell is this "us" that you're referring to? You have your own astounding stupidity and lack of critical thinking skills. We witness it on this forum every day. How many times have I personally exposed your stupidity or lack of critical thinking skills? It wouldn't be so much of a problem if you ever actually tried to learn from the experience. But you never admit how stupid or wrong you are even after I explain it to you. You have zero humility.
Don't throw stones in your glass house.
Even if you think UNWatch is biased, it cited the Wall Street Journal for its claim. You would know that if you actually looked at the UNWatch page that was linked to. And why do you even care that UNRWA workers were involved in the Hamas attack when you defend the attack itself on its merits?
I don't know of any lies told by Israel about Hamas. And Israel is NOT committing genocide.
Are you really calling the Wall Street Journal biased? And why do you even feel the need to defend UNRWA from charges that its workers were involved in the 10/7 attack when you defended the attack itself on its merits? Why would the attack itself be totally okay but not UNRWA involvement in the attack?
You're the one who can't handle truths. You refuse to even read half my responses to you and you never admit it when I prove you wrong about anything. Prove me wrong by actually reading my last comment addressed to you to which you responded by saying "TL:DR".
How exactly does the National Review article "spin" the poll? Can you explain that to me? There's nothing dishonest about linking to a news article about a poll instead of the poll itself. Getting that information from a secondary source doesn't change the information. Furthermore, the article links directly to the poll itself. I assumed that people who actually took the time to look at the article would then go directly to the poll if they were interested in learning more about it. And it's not as if I had any actual obligation to link to anything at all in my OP.
You're the one with a "hating" agenda against Israel. You're the one completely lacking in any awareness. You repeatedly expose your ignorance, which is compounded by your refusal to read half my responses.
Absolutely pathetic! You're completely obnoxious. You can't arrogantly tell me that I'm wrong about everything and then refuse to even try to prove me wrong when I explain why I'm right. Your response is just a combination of laziness and dishonesty. Could you at least read the first 3 paragraphs of my last post:
You're paying so little attention to what I'm saying you don't even realize that the point you're making proves me right. I already read the language from the poll you quoted about the reasons for Palestinians' support for the attack. I already know that 71% of Gazans believe Hamas made the right choice to carry out the attack because it refocused the world's attention on their political cause. That's exactly why I said they're completely insane. Nothing you're saying here proves me wrong about that. You just continue to prove me right. And it's absurd for the survey to claim that support for the Hamas attack doesn't equate to support for Hamas itself in light of the fact that the survey showed that 52% of Gazans prefer to have Hamas stay in control of Gaza. Which means the vast majority of that 71% of Gazans who believe Hamas made the right decision to attack Israel support Hamas in general.
You again refer to the situation in Gaza as "a holocaust". No sane person would believe that an action that led to a holocaust of their people was the correct choice. No sane person would choose to go through a holocaust to advance their political cause. If it's really a holocaust then the Palestinians have already lost far more than they could possibly gain from the global advancement of their political cause. If it's really a holocaust then no sane person in Gaza could possibly conclude at this point in time 5 months into the war that the advancement of the Palestinian political cause made the Hamas attack worth it.
On top of that, those 71% of Gazans didn't consider the possibility that the Hamas attack wouldn't ultimately further their cause on the international stage. The world's attention is short and there's always other crises the world has to deal with. There's no guarantee that anything that's happened in Gaza or Israel over the past 6 months will lead to any permanent changes in how the rest of the world deals with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
You're being really stupid. During World War II, everyone in America who was anti-abortion was completely fine with dropping bombs on kids in Germany and Japan. You know this. Why would you expect anything to be different 80 years later? None of those anti-abortion advocates specifically want Gazan kids to die. They just want Israel to defeat Hamas and understand that Gazan kids dying as a result is the fault of Hamas.
I did read the introduction to the survey. How is it more "real" or "genuine" than anything I said in my response to ur4196727? I even cited 2 other statistics from the survey in that comment. Can you explain to me how anything I said to ur4196727 is actually wrong?
And how the hell did I "object to" ur4196727 linking to the full survey results themselves? I did no such thing! I merely explained to ur4196727 why the 2 additional statistics from the survey that he mentioned in his comment didn't actually prove me wrong about what I said concerning the one statistic I already mentioned.
This is what you get for not actually reading my comments before you respond to them. You're clearly the clueless one who refuses to go by the facts. You don't even know what the facts are. You're just drowning in your own delusions and you don't even know it.
You're paying so little attention to what I'm saying you don't even realize that the point you're making proves me right. I already read the language from the poll you quoted about the reasons for Palestinians' support for the attack. I already know that 71% of Gazans believe Hamas made the right choice to carry out the attack because it refocused the world's attention on their political cause. That's exactly why I said they're completely insane. Nothing you're saying here proves me wrong about that. You just continue to prove me right. And it's absurd for the survey to claim that support for the Hamas attack doesn't equate to support for Hamas itself in light of the fact that the survey showed that 52% of Gazans prefer to have Hamas stay in control of Gaza. Which means the vast majority of that 71% of Gazans who believe Hamas made the right decision to attack Israel support Hamas in general.
You again refer to the situation in Gaza as "a holocaust". No sane person would believe that an action that led to a holocaust of their people was the correct choice. No sane person would choose to go through a holocaust to advance their political cause. If it's really a holocaust then the Palestinians have already lost far more than they could possibly gain from the global advancement of their political cause. If it's really a holocaust then no sane person in Gaza could possibly conclude at this point in time 5 months into the war that the advancement of the Palestinian political cause made the Hamas attack worth it.
On top of that, those 71% of Gazans didn't consider the possibility that the Hamas attack wouldn't ultimately further their cause on the international stage. The world's attention is short and there's always other crises the world has to deal with. There's no guarantee that anything that's happened in Gaza or Israel over the past 6 months will lead to any permanent changes in how the rest of the world deals with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
What's happening in Gaza is certainly not a "holocaust" by any stretch. No group would actually be willing to go through a genuine holocaust just to advance their political cause. That 71% of Gazans believe the attack was worth it 5 months into this war proves that they really don't consider their current situation to be really that bad. That 71% statistic speaks enormous volumes about how Gazans really feel about their current situation. They view it as entirely manageable.
Calling the war in Gaza a "holocaust" is just extremely offensive and shows how little you know about the actual Holocaust. So far, just over 30,000 Gazans have been killed. That pales in comparison to the 300,000-600,000 German civilians killed by Allied bombing during World War II and the 0.5-2.5 million killed during the ethnic cleansing of Germans from Eastern Europe after the war, which is that much less than the 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust. That was 6 million out of 9 million Jews in Europe before the war. 90% of the 3 million Jews in Poland were killed. 95% of the Jews in Lithuania were killed. Jewish children in Europe born after 1930 had less than a 2% survival rate. Jewish toddlers and infants in Eastern Europe had less than a 1% survival rate. And you dare to compare the deaths of a mere 30,000 people to all of that!
Everything else you say here is also completely wrong. I never claimed that "everyone" in Gaza participated in this poll. Where the hell did you get the idea that I claimed otherwise? I'm well aware of how opinion polls work. I'm also well aware that the same poll was also conducted in the West Bank. The National Review article about the poll I linked to in the OP said that. I only mentioned that one statistic in the poll from Gaza because I just wanted to show <i>what the people actually experiencing the war</i> think about the Hamas attack that started it.
It's completely absurd for you to refer to Hamas as "freedom fighters". <i>As I already explained to you</i>, Hamas are really just Islamo-imperialists who would like Islam to conquer the entire world. They seek to slaughter all Israeli Jews. They made no real attempt to actually "free" the people of Gaza. They didn't end the blockade with their attack and their attack wasn't even designed to end it. They didn't take permanent control of any Israeli territory nor did they even try to. They did nothing to stop the IDF from invading the Gaza Strip and carried out the attack knowing the IDF would do so. Hamas are NOT "freedom fighters" by any stretch.
And for the last time, the Israeli blockade of Gazs was NOT illegal:
https://jcpa.org/text/puzzle1.pdf
(pages 19-22)
You have absolutely no room to tell me I'm wrong about this. After you repeatedly refused to read that essay I then summarized its explanation of the legality of the blockade and you still refused to engage with it. You completely lost the debate on this issue and I won. The Israeli blockade of Gaza was legal. End of story.
It's not rich at all. What I have to say about Arabs and Islam in general is completely irrelevant to this. It's an issue that says more about the perverse incentives created by the new racial hierarchy in America than it does about Arab Americans. They're no worse when it comes to exploiting their skin color than all the other groups that benefit from affirmative action.
I'm not a horrible liar. I'm not a liar at all. You're just a bad copy-cat.
Don't you realize that your whole shtick of pretending you don't believe I'm Jewish isn't the least bit convincing when you already lie about everything else, from homosexuality being illegal in Florida to college sports being slavery? Stop lying. You're not good at it.
You just don't want to admit that Arab Americans actually benefit from being officially non-white. They were fighting to get in on the affirmative action gravy train. You don't have to be a "hateful white supremacist neo-Nazi Christian nationalist" to figure that out. Everyone knows it.
You really believe all Christians are ignorant, backwater morons? Don't you know that President Biden is Christian? Are you saying he's an ignorant, backwater moron?
Yeah, now Mideastern Americans and North African Americans can get that sweet, sweet People of Color privilege. Now they have access to affirmative action. They have much to celebrate.
There are enormous obstacles to the 2-state solution:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/two-state-delusion
The 2-state solution is impossible to even start negotiating towards as long as Hamas remains in power in Gaza. Hamas has vowed to carry out more attacks against Israel like October 7th until Israel is completely destroyed:
https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-israel-attacks-again-and-again-until-its-destroyed/
And the Palestinians see the "2-state solution" as just the start of fully conquering Israel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO%27s_Ten_Point_Program
You're not even addressing the actual issue under discussion here. It's NOT about how much I care about the civilians in Gaza. It's all about what <b>Gazans themselves</b> think about everything that's happened to them. You refer to it as "this holocaust". If it's really a "holocaust" then it means that the 71% of Gazans going through it for 5 months who still believe that the Hamas attack was still worth the cost are <i>completely insane</i>. This is an issue where your anti-Israel hyperbole really just hurts your argument rather than helping it.
Do you have anything at all to say about the actual issue I brought up for discussion here?
You talk about these other stats from the poll as if they somehow counter the stat I was talking about or disprove the point I was making. But they really don't. The fact that 60% of Gazans have had a family member killed doesn't really say anything by itself about what they <i>think</i>. It's just a dry fact. But it does prove just how significant it is that 71% of Gazans believe Hamas was right to carry out the October 7th attack against Israel. The fact that most Gazans have had a family member killed yet still believe that Hamas made the right choice by carrying out the attack proves the insanity of their outlook.
The 27% increase in support by Gazans for the so-called "2-state solution" doesn't really prove anything either. Their understanding of the "2-state solution" is that it's really just a 2-state <i>phase</i>. It simply means getting Israelis out of their immediate presence. They believe that they'll eventually conquer the rest of Israel. They don't really want to live in <i>permanent</i> peace with Israel. Furthermore, the 71% support for the Hamas attack proves they don't believe they'll actually have to do the hard work of making peace with Israel to get to the 2-state solution. Their idea of getting to the 2-state solution simply means forcing the Israelis to leave Gaza and the West Bank. They see the Hamas attack as part of that effort. The poll shows that only 23% of Gazans support negotiating their way to the 2-state solution. Finally, the 2-state solution is impossible with Hamas in power because of its religious devotion to a permanent war against Israel's existence. Yet 59% of Gazans want Hamas to return to power in Gaza.
Even by itself, the 71% support for the 10/7 attack speaks enormous volumes about the thinking of Gazans. It tells us that the vast majority of them believe that all that's happened to them since October is an acceptable cost of advancing the Palestinian cause. It tells us that the vast majority of them believe that massive violence against Israel will get them what they want. Why should they negotiate at all when massive violence will get them what they want? Why should they compromise on any issue when massive violence will get them everything they want? Even if they got a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza then they could use massive violence to get even more from Israel, even its complete destruction.