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daveyh's Replies
sorry cv1cv, I might be "feeding the troll" here ha ha!
I'd expand on the OP though and say that it goes beyond any individual character - it's the problem with the whole documentary style, given how long the show ran for.
It's hard to believe that cameras would focus on an individual office for nearly 10 years, unless they were trying to make some bizarre version of Boydhood. Even if they did, they'd certainly condense the coverage into one series or maybe even a movie (sort of like a dull version of Hoop Dreams). They wouldn't release so many stand-alone series of it. They'd probably not even run it chronologically, instead maybe focusing on one individual each episode and contrasting their appearance, habits, social lifestyle etc over the course of the filming.
That's possibly one place where I'd say the Engish version has the advantage - because there were only 12 episodes of the original spoof-documentary run, and all supposedly taking place within a 3 month time frame, it makes the fly-on-the-wall documentary idea plausible. (the Christmas specials were treated as a follow-up show after the original had aired)
Also at the time the English version was conceived, in 1998, fly-on-the-wall documentaries (also known as "docusoaps") were all the rage in the UK. Even by the time the show is supposed to be set though, in early 2001, they had become tired and were fast being replaced by reality shows.
By 2005 in America, when the filming starts, this kind of documentary making would be very outdated.
think it was a reference to Cruel Intentions - not seen it for about 10 years, but if I remember right, Ryan Philippe's character's step-sister would flirt and tease as a way of getting him to do what she wanted.
in the original (Infernal Affairs), the cop in Trooper Brown's position (the one who confronts them on the roof) turns out to be the other mole and shoots their equivalent of Costigan as they're getting into the elevator before it goes down.
So anyone who watched the original BEFORE watching this one will be expecting the same, and so when the elevator door closes and begins its descent, they'd think "oh, i guess he's not gonna get shot then, they're gonna go with the hollywood ending of the good guy getting his man and being the hero" and then BAM when the elevator gets to the bottom! If Scorsese was going for this, it's quite brilliant because it lulls anyone who'd already watched Infernal Affairs in to such a false sense of security, it means Costigan still getting shot is also a shock to them!
That said, Trooper Brown being the Costello's second undercover would have made for a much better twist, given that he was in the academy with Costigan - Costello could even have pulled some strings or recommended him to Sullivan when he was picking his team.
nicely summarised. In the Work category, I'd also say that Jimmy, with all his energy/hyperactiveness and intolerance for the "c**ts" (his words) he had to deal with in the office, would have been better suited to the manual labour jobs that his male friends are seen doing, but wearing a suit all day and being in an advertising agency was again the "cool" decision - the job was a good status symbol even if it wasn't right for him.
"traitorous" as in he acted like he didn't know Kevin when the other mods came in to the cafe - even going as far as to abandon his pie and mash and leave his towel behind. Then he does nothing while his friends are giving Kevin a kicking as "revenge" for Chalking being messed with by a couple of more thuggish rockers (think one of them was Auf Weidersein Pet's Gary Holton?) earlier in the evening, Jimmy knowing Kevin well enough to know that he wouldn't have been involved
to add a few more into the mix
Kelly - using Darryl to make Ryan jealous (although I'd forgotten about the fake performance reports - wasn't that "revenge" for forgetting her birthday? Yeah, that was kinda sh***y too)
Ryan - hard to single out one moment for such a sketchy character. Abandoning his baby in the show's finale takes the cake though. Also generally committing fraud on the company's behalf during his short time as a NY bigwig
Dwight - abusing his powers as a volunteer sheriff's deputy (there's a brilliant deleted scene in which he goes to the station to "hand back his badge" which shows just how far he'd gone)
Angela - making utterly unreasonable demands on Andy re their wedding, all the while with no intention of going through with it as she was having relations with Dwight throughout
Roy - being a d**k about Pam wanting to go to art school. Also abandoning Pam at the Dundies - ironically this only brought her and Jim closer.
Jim - planning to propose to Pam during Toby's leaving party (especially if he knew about Toby's crush on Pam, which is very likely given the hand on her knee incident mentioned in the OP)
Andy - proposing to Angela during Toby's leaving party
Also to defend Karen, I don't think she was trying to poach Stanley to get back at Jim - I don't think Jim would have cared if he'd gone. I think she was trying to hire Stanley because he was their top sales-person and, from the time she worked with him, she perhaps suspected that he was as disillusioned with the Scranton office environment as she was and would welcome the chance to transfer somewhere with a more professional approach. So I'd say it was a purely business reason. Michael and Dwight are the ones who made it awkward and a lot more personal by going there to confront her about it and bringing Jim along. Actually I'm struggling to think of anything bad involving Karen.
Also in Holly's defence, Dwight told her that about Kevin. Being as senior in the office as he was (Michael's "assistant"/"assistant to"!), chosen to show her around, and given Kevin's behaviour around her that day, she had no reason not to believe it. I just find it hard to believe that it took until early in season 5, which would have been months later, for her to realise that she'd been pranked.
the fact that putting his hand on Pam's leg is the "most unlikeable" for Toby suggests it's a very short list to choose from. And arguably karma for Jim making a move on Pam while she was still engaged to Roy.
I'd argue that siding with Ryan when Jim's getting disciplined was his worst moment, as that did seem to be out of spite for him being with Pam, something he practically confirmed in the talking head about the incident.
To defend Ryan in this instance, I think there's another thread on here suggesting that Jim was a slacker in the office, Ryan had first hand experience of this and was right to call him out on it. And he wasn't threatening to fire him, just giving him a warning to try harder. Unfortunately, with this and the Charles Minor episodes, the person unhappy with Jim is always portrayed on the show as the bad guy and Jim the victim. The fact that his performance warning is considered some sort of revenge for being with Pam sadly proves the point. Especially since Ryan only half-heartedly asked her to a part-date/part-business dinner once and showed no interest in her before or since.
actually that was one of the more tragic things about this story - that Derek's got all these qualities - academically good, great at basketball, streetwise, leadership skills, public speaking/oratory - Ed Norton himself when discussing this movie says that Derek could be an army general or something with all the gifts he has - and yet he's so consumed by anger that he throws it all away, or worse still, uses these talents for something negative and to seek what he sees as revenge on those who killed his father.
Without all that hate and rage, he probably would have gotten himself and his family out of that area. Even with his skinhead ways, according to Danny he had a good job (although we're never told what that is)
once you get past the coma episodes, I really liked it. The soap opera with Vito, AJ's continuing deterioration until Tony, without Carmela around to talk him out of it, gets him the job on the building site, and "The Ride" is one of my favourite episodes of the show. Also the faux-happy-ending until the grim reality of 6B sets in.
and Carlo's testimony
I thought 4 was great too, once you got past the first four episodes.
I'd say season 5 - until this point, the actors had all been relative unknowns, but for 5 they bring in Frank Vincent and Steve Buscemi - great actors but already well known for other things and it just kind of took me out of the show a little and took away some of the escapism. Also didn't like a lot of the storylines.
Unlike the other responders, I thought season one was great and I could also make a point that season 2 suffers early on from having to undo the end of the first series (contriving to get Dr Melfi to let Tony return as a patient, Uncle Junior getting out of prison so quickly, etc). Then again season 5 suffers from the same because the whole story of Tony and Carmela getting back together drags like crazy.
Season 3 was arguably a rehash of season 2 in parts, with Jackie Jr (& his friend Dino maybe?) replacing Matt & Sean, & Ralphie replacing Richie Aprile (even to the point of dating Janice!)
If you consider the two parts of Season 6 to be separate (as I do), I'd say the "final 9" were very hit and miss. But when it hit it was still great.
Short answer, season 5 was the worst.
if true, imagine how much worse Tony's financial state would have been if the show had carried on a couple more seasons, given what happened to the economy in 2008
It's possible though that her shock and snap decision to run away upon seeing his ID wasn't because she found out that he was only 17/18, it was the fact that it was his "Vernon Academy" ID, meaning that he went to the same school and was in the same year (and therefore probably in the same classes) as her son.
it's quite funny that he chases after him to continue the fight (after being punched outside the school), but quickly realises that he's completely out-muscled by Skip, so has to run away instead. The ear-bite you refer to is a desperate move stop the attack, and also to buy himself some time to get away. Same with throwing the rock and the fire extinguisher at him.
It accomplished what he wanted though, in making Skip finally get it out of his system. Not just for the sake of their friendship, for Skip's own sanity too
film came out in 83 so would have been set in the autumn of 82 and winter of late 82/early 83. Possibly filmed during this period too.
So he'd have been 17 when proceedings start, and turned 18 during the course of the movie (in the autumn of 82) - I guess they didn't show his birthday party, but you just know Skip would have made it a good one
actually that's with Tuesday Weld's character (Carol?), not Deborah
they even parody the scene at the end of Titanic, when Chris' jock friends are on that plank but one of them can't hold on
Agreed - to counter IMDB_Vitt's response, Ashley's first appearance, when that stoner guy falls off his skateboard, she smiles and asks him if he's OK and hands his book back to him. Moments later, she's also nice, not to mention quick-witted, to Brian/Ryan when he bumps into her, causes her to mess up her lipstick and can only say "sorry about your mouth" - I considered this niceness and humour to be part of her appeal and the reason he fell for her. I also got the impression she was getting on well with Marla Sokoloff's character during their double date.
It's completely at odds with the person we see later in the movie, being horrible to the waitress and actually to everyone outside her clique that she considers beneath her, and, as stated in the OP, generally acting like a dumb bimbo.
While Chris was a jerk from the beginning, he also came across much more intelligent and cunning initially than he appeared to be later in the movie. His motive for Marla seemed contradictory too, as at first it seems like he's intrigued by her BECAUSE she's not interested in him, and that if he were to win her over, he'd want to do so for good and not just for one night - his "nail and bail" approach just doesn't go with the time and effort he takes chasing her.
Other threads have commented on the lack of continuity in other areas of this movie, and it's a shame. I guess they had to change Ashley's personality in order for Brian/Ryan to fall out of love with her and thus set up the triangle with Marla's character.
I think they took enough liberties with this movie already, especially with the ending (and when I say "ending", I mean the final scene featuring both Joe/Donnie & Lefty).
In reality, both Joe and another undercover agent (might have been Richie , might have been someone else, it's been a while since I read the book) were told in advance that after the upcoming weekend, they were getting taken out of the program.
Consequently, both agents (Richie was every bit as competent and cunning as Joe, despite how the movie sometimes portrays him) spent the weekend being unusually nosey and asking questions that they'd normally avoid so as not to arouse suspicion - with them being out of it in a couple of days, there wouldn't be time for the people they'd infiltrated to even discuss their suspicions, never mind act on them, and so with nothing to lose they figured they may as well get as much information as they could (a) while they still could, and (b) while they no longer had to worry about seeming a bit too curious when asking questions.
Contrast that with the dramatic climax to Joe's tenure as Donnie in the movie. Like I said at the start of this post, I think they took enough liberties already