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einsteinfountain's Replies
I love both Rise and Begins even though they are flawed. The great thing is both Dawn and TDK improve on everything their predecessor did. Which is why Dawn of the Planet of the Apes and TDK are great sequels. They both improve on everything while still honoring what came before. I personally feel the new Apes trilogy is underrated in general. I liked War of the Planet of the Apes also. Again see though this trilogy does not make anywhere near the cash Star Wars does even though it is way better.
Here is another issue I have where you and I might part ways. Here is the truth, capturing the magic of the originals will never happen again. Asking a film maker to recapture that feeling is asking the impossible. I love Terminator 2 with all my heart, I loved seeing the T-1000 form into liquid metal, I loved seeing the T-800 go into the lava giving the thumbs up with that epic music. I would die to have that feeling again but as much as you want that to happen it will not happen.
What I do not get is someone like you does not like Rogue One. You claimed the prequels are better. Rogue One does not break any lore nor does it have a Mary Sue, nor does does it rely on nostalgia easter eggs throughout the entire thing. Is it perfect? Nope but that is the most competent Star Wars film we have gotten since the OT. People still hate it though largely because they are salty about the Disney trilogy. I judge films fairly and do not let my hatred of another bleed onto my judgement of another. The prequels break lore and continuity far more than Rogue One does. They also have terrible acting where as Rogue One has much better acting.
We agree here yes. Here is my rule. If you are going to be style over substance you better have damn good style that stands out. Burton's Batman, Sin City, and Mad Max Fury Road definitely have that. However as I said TDK has more going for it than just style.
I can understand that. I had a different problem I think. My issue with Batman Begins is the fight scenes are shot too close and there is too much quick cutting and shakey cam. Honestly that is one area I feel Nolan is sub par it is his fight scenes. Luckily in TDK this was much better handled. However I love movies like The Raid so fight choreography I am a bit of a snob about.
Rise I think my issue was Tom Felton as the human villain. Do I think he did bad? No but I felt like the antagonists were super cliched. I felt like I was like oh hey look here is Malfoy from Harry Potter. The archetype is so similar it is like nice of Malfoy to visit. Maybe that is just me I just feel like if you had cast another person not so soon and recognizable it would not have broken my immersion like that did. Continuing on next keep reading.
I get that but I will be honest even though I enjoyed Gran Tarino I found some of the acting to be kind of bad and forced. Not a bad film overall but in some ways the message did override the execution of the film.
Anything that catches huge numbers eventually loses it's artistic integrity and becomes a product. This has happened throughout history time and time again. The Alien franchise after the second same goes for Terminator, Halloween etc. The reason they put effort into Blade Runner 2049 was because they realized their audience is niche. Therefore the only way it will make cash is if they actually put effort into making it good. Star Wars can slap a name on something and it will make money.
See but this is where we still do not have a common ground. Who gets to make the final call of something being objectively bad? Different people have different reasons as to why they say something is good or bad.
I have heard people call Avatar a good film because of it's visuals and what it pioneered visually. Are the characters and story weak and cliche yes but you can not take that away from it. As I stated before Gran Tarino is not by any means perfect either. See a film in my book that is truly bad would be a film like Justice League. What is good about that film? Even the visuals in that film are trash. The framing is bad, the editing, is bad, the effects are awful! The writing and characters are just as bad as that. Nothing is good nothing. I can not say TFA is on that level so no I disagree that it is a bad film. I do not like it much but you will not catch me putting it alongside a film like Justice League. I agree about Blade Runner now leave it alone. Lightning somehow struck twice. The reason it has remained good though is because it has not been saturated like other franchises.
I get you well just thought I would say you have insight that counts for something. You are right though you need to catch a certain wave.
Okay fair enough.
I just go with the safe approach and move on from them. If it were up to me as a film maker I would not touch those characters with a 100 foot pole. Sure you can call me chicken but I think some things are better left alone.
Batman 1989 I can give credit for pioneering the dark comic book film genre. It was the first dark comic book movie. Before that you had Donner's Superman which while great was not dark and gritty whatsoever. I feel like TDK perfected this groundwork though. I feel Burton's films rely more on style than they do substance. Now I am not complaining the style is most definitely nice. Thing is TDK I feel balances style and story in perfect harmony. Therefore you get a film with style and substance rather than just style.
See to me with both those rebooted films Rise and Begins I feel for every step they get wrong they get 3 steps right does that make sense?
I get it. Thing is though people will deny if something is cliche just by if it is well executed or not. Just because it does not feel cliche or recognized as such does not mean that it is not. I get it though yes if the film is well executed then that doesn't apply for people.
Star Wars is marketable to a massive audience Blade Runner is not. Children will be bored stiff by a film like that. It is more reliant on atmosphere and subtlety.
Where am I taking away the objective logic? I said I am learning about frame rate so guess what you probably notice that more than I do because I am learning about it in film class. Maybe you should consider doing it? Maybe a youtube channel honestly? As a side gig?
Okay I can see your point on this one. Thing is though how do you show Luke being flawed since his arc is now complete.
It is a fine line you are walking here. If they are not shoehorned into being the focus the old fans complain. If you barely have them as the focus then they are shoehorned in for money and nostalgia. Okay yeah they could execute it well but to me it is like jumping off the golden gate bridge. Could you survive yeah but not likely. That is why I say to hell with it leave it alone period. I guess that is where I am absolutest. People all the time would tell me well this time they will get Terminator right. I saw 3 sucked, salvation sucked, terminator Genisys sucked, I am burnt man no more. Same goes for the Alien franchise as well. After Aliens it is just bleh. Okay well Alien 3 I like the concept but unfortunately not well executed after that just shoot me please.
I agree Dawn and Dark Knight are better than their first films. I think TDK is better than Begins mainly because of it was so much better handled technically. The quick cut shakey cam disappeared in TDK. Dawn got to really feel like a film rather than a setup film. Either way though those reboots may not be perfect but they are good.
Someone could and you can not say they are wrong. Thing is I get it fine but my brain does not work that way. If something is cliche it is cliche. No matter the execution. Just because you execute a story well does not mean it is not cliche. Same goes for if you make a woke film that is good.
Okay maybe flop was the wrong word but it did not pull in the numbers it should have. Artistic films of that level usually do not blow the doors off the box office. How much would a sequel to There Will Be Blood make?
Why should I care about your anecdotal evidence? I never said you needed to go to film school to know those things. Another comment you made was you probably knew just as much as me about cinematography, editing, and sound etc. I never claimed I knew more or just as much as you. For all I know you could know more. Thing is you are the one attempting to inflate your own view here not me. I am learning about frame rate. The frame rate did not bother me in TFA I could see how it would bother someone though. It is why I asked. Thing is since you claim to be such an expert why are you not in the film industry? I am honestly asking?
So then you can't make an assumption like that without someone being able to disagree. You want to go with the negative answer each time. I said it probably did not compute at first which implies I am assuming it did not compute.
When Ford says I do not know but it isn't good. What about that sounded bored? Second he barely had any lines. If he were to have droned on in dull sentences I could see it.
Not a bad faith argument at all. How do you know Rey's personality at that point? You barely saw her. Why would should she not be aggressive towards a scavenger? Aren't scavengers typically like that?
Listen to what you are saying a scavenger.
a person who searches through and collects items from discarded material.
It kind of goes without saying scavengers are in competition with each other by their very name.
Not in a new hope we did not. You are going off if we had seen the prequels. I recall Luke giving up on lifting the ship when training with Yoda.
As I said even though I was not a fan the thinking was okay how can we get him back the old badass Han Solo. You already commented on him being a deadbeat dad so even if him being buried in the resistance was there you still have the deadbeat dad. So you have to make him play family man. Who wants to see that? I guarantee you people not be happy.
I disagree. Their character arcs are complete. There is no more to tell with those characters. Just like how there is no further story for the T-800. I know man you want more but do not let fandom blind you. They should not have included the original cast period.
Batman Begins is the best reboot I have seen in years. Only thing that comes close would be Rise of the Planet of the Apes and Mad Max Fury Road. Thing is I place Batman Begins at the top because of how deep and non derivative the screenplay was. It took a character we had seen a ton of times and did not rely on any past story blueprints. Do I have flaws with it yep but overall it is a win.
Blade Runner 2049 was the best sequel to a film in my book since The Dark Knight. It did not clone the original. It honored it by being well shot, solid acting and great music. How was it rewarded though box office dud... That is the reason we get stuff that is tired and recycled when you give an effort and try no one supports you. Even if you were not in love with Blade Runner 2049 you have to respect the fact that some damn effort was put into the film.
Technically the dictionary definition is the most correct one. I do not go by that kind of thinking. If a film is cliche it is cliche no matter the execution of it. Same goes for if it is woke.
Honestly I saw the trailer for Dark Fate and said no thanks. It looks awfully shot and terribly unfunny. Terminator ended with the second one there is no more after that. It being woke or feminist agenda I could not care less about. It is a dead franchise.
Really if that were true why was Blade Runner 2049 a box office flop? I am not denying Blade Runner has a cult following but it took Kind of Comedy longer than that to develop it's following.
Oh because anyone in film school can't recognize the things you can right? I am going look past that condescending remark. I have not passively aggressively insulted you do not do it to me. Your generalization of encounters with people in film school I am also going to look past. There are ignorant and smart people who have not gone to film and there are smart people and ignorant people who have gone film school. You got proven wrong about Birdman fyi. If it was so forgotten about why was it shown in my film class and discussed a few months ago? In film school I am learning how to film a movie, about cinematography, editing, sound and how to make storyboards. I also am taking a writing class also. Since you seem to know more than any film student with your condescending tone why are you not making films? You act as if your word has more sole authority than what I am being taught in film class. You couldn't make a movie like Birdman if your life depended on it. Am I saying I can nope but you started the condescending attitude first. Learn to have more humility.
So then Obi Wan hiding would make him a coward as well? Thing is you sound like you wanted Luke to take on a paragon role in this series. Since Luke accomplished these things does it make so that he can no longer be flawed? If that is the case then he should have been in this film from the start?
People often do bury themselves in work or what they used to do when things go bad. Was Han Solo supposed to be mr family man then? I am not even trying to be a jerk I am honestly asking what you wanted to see from Han? I myself am not a fan of the way they handled him either. Thing is though really think about what else is there for Han Solo? No one likes seeing the badass domesticated it takes away what made them such a compelling standout character.
You want my honest opinion? I thought from the beginning you are placing a loaded shotgun in your mouth by continuing with the old set of cast members. I get it everyone was dying to see Luke and the gang back again but the truth is their character arcs are over. Nothing you do is over going to feel as epic as their resolution to the character's arc.
I thought they should have set it far in the future without any of the old cast. I remember everyone hated me for that idea. Everyone was like why would you say that? I remember saying because it does not matter what sequel they provide you there is no continuation of Luke and the old gang that is going to satisfy people. Much like how when Terminator 2 ended the T800's arch is over there is no more. Fans get greedy. Move on to a complete new set with tiny homages acknowledging the original but do not clone and rely on new characters rather than nostalgia skittles being fed to you. Batman Begins is a reboot done correctly.
Geez you got all this from this brief scene? You said she has no personality so if this is true how would any emotion match up with her character? If she is a scavenger as the movie tried to portray then isn't it kind of dog eat dog world? Therefore you would gladly take something from someone else for survival.
Rey was probably blank and emotionless when he told her because she was shocked. It probably did not compute at first. That is how some people react to certain truth bombs being dropped on them. I disagree about Ford sounding bored as well.
I agree that the reveal was too on the nose and revealed too early. This to me is a more a case of bad lines than acting. Comparing to David Prowse is where you are going wrong. Judge it for what it is rather than comparing to it's counterpart. Which is hard considering how derivative it is of a New Hope.
I disagree with this wholeheartedly. I mean the original has some rather on the nose dialogue as well. Hux I actually felt served his role well for this story.
To each his own but I prefer sticking to the textbook definition. Even if I play their game people will use that as a fall back to hating a film. They will dismiss it based off that alone. Even if the message is woke that does not by default make the film bad is my whole point. A film can be flawed and still be a rather solid film. Even if you feel the message overrides the film the film can still be considered good or even great. Forrest Gump is considered a cinematic classic after all.
That seems to me more like a betrayal of character than feminist agenda.
How old are Blade Runner and King of Comedy? Birdman could very well be discussed way later on just like King of Comedy is today. I am in film school and we discussed that film a few months ago.
Disagree about Finn. I do agree that he is the best character in the new trilogy who should have been given more to do. I do not think he is a bumbling idiot though. He did have tons of potential that was not utilized.
Bad acting in the scenes you mentioned? What was bad about Kylo and Snoke's scene? Which Hux speech and what about Maz's bar? Also what was bad about Rey meeting bb-8?
Luke being absent is not really gone over in this film. What was bad about Han and Leia?
Horribly paced scenes? Which ones in particular. I thought the action sequences were well shot in this film. Nice wides and no shakey cam or quick cuts.
The rest I can see yeah the music was bland.
The other thread got too long so I am replying up here. Exactly it is the most objective which is why I think it is the best way to utilize the definition. That is what I am trying to point out it is thrown at something if it is badly made. So a film can have those exact same things but if it is good then woke is not mentioned. In my mind either it is woke or it is not. Same goes for calling something cliche. It does not matter if it is well done or not if it is cliche it is cliche.
I did not hear it all the time but that was a reason certain people would dismiss the film.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN9P9MmfcLs
We are not things! Our babies will not be warlords! Women being used to breed and escaping oppression and captivity. You are right just because it has a strong female character does not make it feminist. However I believe those things are feminist.
So if a film is not discussed currently that determines where it will fall in film history? Blade Runner was a massive box office bomb when it came out only years down the line did people realize how good it was. King of Comedy was a flop but when referenced now is considered a film ahead of it's time. Avengers Infinity War or Avengers Endgame gets discussed more than a film like Nightcrawler would however when determining it critically Nightcrawler will make a best of movie list before a film like Avengers would same goes Birdman. Poor example on your part.
The forgiving definition is the dictionary definition?
I have seen many people refer to District 9 as a bad film for these exact reasons.
I do think people are hyper sensitive about it. The minute they learn it has a political message they will dismiss it based off that alone. You know how many people have called Mad Max a feminist trash film just because it is feminist?
Based on what? You talking about on here?
The definition of the word woke is rather straightforward wouldn't you say?
So then as long as it is executed correctly it does not matter if it is woke?
Until someone sees a film with their own eyes their opinion means nothing on that film. I watch films for myself I do not always listen to what others say about it. I would have missed out on a lot of great movies if I did that.
Who forgot about Birdman? By what standards are you saying it has been forgotten? By critics by the majority of people who?