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Zeekmoont's Replies
[quote]I don´t believe the dreamer is trying, it´s simply the reality creeping in which she is unable to suppress.[/quote]
Herb tried to help Dan confront his fear at Winkie's. Betty tried to help Rita rediscover her past. Both plans backfired, because the dreamer could not face the truth, culminating in Diane's suicide. Adam is the obvious exception. He was able to face up to his cheating wife. But, did Rita really love him? I guess we can't tell for sure. But, did Rita say she loved him? No!
https://ulozto.net/file/9EpTpdGiOxGB/mulholland-dr-adam-s-mom-mp4
https://ulozto.net/file/VKYVPEWoimlV/mulholland-dr-camilla-adam-betty-mp4
'Dumb, da, dumb, duh, duh, duh, why haven't I told you?'
I don't know about you, but I'm no longer seeing a story about someone who does or doesn't get to be a movie star. I'm starting to see a typical 'love em and leave em' guy, who finally gets pinned down. As I see it, Camilla is the one who got what she wanted, but I'm not sure if Adam did. And Rita didn't tell Betty that she loved her either.
"In fact we never see any interaction between Aunt Ruth and them (except for the phone call with Betty, but we never hear Aunt Ruth´s voice there, do we?) and both of them seem to be afraid of her for some reason. It seems like they cannot coexist, like Aunt Ruth isn´t real. Like a untruth."
Notice that the girl's and the blue box disappear before Aunt Ruth arrives. I take this to mean that Aunt Ruth is a real person.
https://ulozto.net/file/kBFnnZ3wNS1s/mulholland-dr-the-abyss-mp4
Except for her purse, Aunt Ruth is dressed the same way she was the day Rita arrived.
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/4e/d9/nlihUkxa_t.png
This appearance corresponds to a point in time BEFORE Aunt Ruth had left and BEFORE Betty and Rita had arrived. Therefore, the girls had to disappear. Moreover, the incident at Club Silencio coincides with the moment when the accident happened on Mulholland Drive. This collision is yet another Freudian metaphor for sex. Quite simply, white and black represent male and female respectively.
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/17/4f/Pf3GZh0c_t.jpg
Ever since the accident on Mulholland Drive, Rita had been struggling to reconstruct her past through her own dreams. Notice that Rita was asleep during the Winkie's incident, where Dan & Herb encountered the boogyman. Rita was also asleep when Betty arrived in the airport. In other words, Betty is Rita's own wish. The girl that is missing is Rita's mom. Rita was asleep when the Castigliani Brothers showed up at Ryan Entertainment. However, the assassination in the office building (where the blond guy 'bangs up' three people) temporarily woke Rita up, allowing Betty to help Rita reconstruct her past. Finally, Club Silencio brought Rita back to the moment when the accident happened.
This is the moment where the father (the magician) comes between the child (Rita) and the mother (Betty). Except Betty is only an imaginary character. Aunt Ruth is Rita's real mother. In Lacanian theory, opening the blue box represents Rita's transition from the imaginary order to the symbolic order. It is the point where the child realizes that s/he and the mother are separate individuals. In layman's terms, it's the difference between fantasy and desire.
[quote]Maybe Diane and DeRosa had a relationship and that went sour due to Diane´s (in your case the Dreamer´s) depression.[/quote]
Which is why Diane moved to apartment 17. Fair enough. But, it's also possible that Diane's depression is a RESULT of their separation. In any case, I find it odd that Rita seems to know Diane, but she doesn't recognize Betty. Moreover, DeRosa didn't seem to recognize either of them when they showed up at her apartment.
[quote]And wouldn´t she downplay the abillities of her rival? Indeed, wouldn´t she make it so that her rival had to sleep with the director to get the role she so desperately wanted?[/quote]
Fair enough. Or, perhaps Rita is downplaying her acting skills to make Betty look better.
[quote]where does your interest in psychology come from?[/quote]
The Wall (Pink Floyd, 1979) was my formal introduction to psychology. I took a couple of courses in college, but Freud (the great grandaddy of psychology) was hardly ever mentioned. I used to laugh hysterically at his sexually explicit theories. Then, when the internet went mainstream, I got a good look at 'adult' films. Ironically, they turned out to be more childish than stuff they make for kids. Perhaps you know what I'm talking about.
'Come now, you've been a naughty girl. You KNOW that I HAVE to spank you!'
That's when I took an interest in Freud. Freud thought the most important experiences of your sex life occurred between the ages of 3 and 7. Even though you probably didn't even know what sex was at that time, Freud believed that childhood experiences shape what you will be like when you become an adult. What happened to you was so traumatic that you repressed all memories of it. Except, they cum back to haunt your dreams in a disguised form.
By now you recognize a couple of Freudian metaphors. The pun and the ashtray filled with cigarettes. Perhaps the number of cigarettes refers to the number of sexual experiences. There is one more reference you probably didn't guess. The simple fact that Diane will soon be taking a long drive. As you can see, driving can have many different interpretations.
https://www.learning-mind.com/dreams-about-driving-a-car-meaning/
What about the sexual images? According to Freud, playing the piano is a metaphor for masturbation. You may not believe him, but, apparently, David Lynch does. Soon after her encounter with Camilla, we'll see Diane masturbating. I've danced with myself a few times. Sometimes, my imaginary partner is a movie star. In most cases, however, my partner is not a real person.
https://ulozto.net/file/MI5kJ6yfZEHj/mulholland-dr-red-lamp-2-mp4
Notice that Diane is wearing denim shorts. She cries and she's frustrated, but all she can see is a stone wall. Then, the phone rings. Suddenly, we see a red lamp, an ashtray and telephone. These are exactly the same one's we saw earlier, when Mr Roque and company were looking for 'the girl'.
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/4b/24/rYhflszB_t.png
After 4 rings, the dreamer hears the same message Betty and Rita got when they called Diane Selwyn. This time, however, someone answers. As if by magic, Diane is now in a black dress.
"Hello, its me. Leave a message."
"Diane, the car's waiting. Are you ok? You coming?
"Uh huh"
"Good. It means so much to me. Go on, the car's right outside your house. It's been waiting, ok?"
"Ok"
"It's 6980, Mulholland Drive"
Given that Diane was just masturbating, we have little trouble understanding the line 'are you cumming?' Also note the soft, sentimental tone in Camilla's voice. There are 8 cigarette butts in Diane's ashtray. Yet, neither Diane nor Betty smokes. On the other hand, we know Adam and Camilla smoke, as does the blond assassin and his prostitute. We also know that Diane's neighbor has an ashtray. However, there is no red lamp in Diane's apartment. In fact, we have no idea where the lamp comes from. The other odd fact is that Camilla tells Diane that the car is outside her house, but Diane doesn't have a house.
https://ulozto.net/file/saCexsq2PnBR/mulholland-dr-diane-s-apartment-mp4
When Diane walks into the living room, we suddenly find Camilla lying topless on the sofa. Suddenly, Diane is also topless and wearing denim shorts. She wasn't wearing these when she got out of bed earlier. Diane's coffee has just become a glass of whisky. The blue key has disappeared. In it's place is a vase with two flower buds (roses?). DeRosa's ashtray has now returned. Diane is on top, but she's not in control. Camilla wants to break things up. After a frustrated struggle, Diane says:
'It's him isn't it?'
So, if you believe that Diane had been dreaming all along and has finally awoken, you have to conclude that she's also hallucinating. As for my interpretation, Diane didn't lose her lover 3 weeks ago. I take the age of her fridge and stove as an indication of how long it's really been. For example, Rita Hayworth was born in 1918. When she was a young woman, she probably had a fridge and a stove that looked like the ones in Diane's apartment. Since Diane is wearing a wedding ring, she could have lost her husband. Camilla is simply an imaginary substitute. I also take the blue key as symbol of her lost lover. We only see the key on the coffee table when Camilla is NOT there.
[quote]When you consider portions of it to be reality, the pov perspective has already been broken.[/quote]
According to the popular interpretation, the first part of the movie with Betty and Rita is a dream. The dream ends when Diane wakes up to sober reality in what seems to be an apartment in Sierra Bonita.
https://ulozto.net/file/saCexsq2PnBR/mulholland-dr-diane-s-apartment-mp4
Notice that Diane is wearing a robe when her neighbor (LJ DeRosa) shows up. We also see a blue key on the coffee table. According to one interpretation, Diane became jealous of Camilla and hired a hitman to kill her. This key looks to be the same one that the presumed assassin will later give her as a token.
We can infer from context that the 'hit' occurred 3 weeks ago, and Diane has switched apartments to dodge the police. Since DeRosa is aiding an abetting a presumed criminal, the two women must be better friends than we would have guessed, given that they are hardly talking to one another. DeRosa has some things in common with Camilla. She smokes and she's a brunette. I consider DeRosa to be a real life model that serves as a template for some of the character's in Diane's dream. But, that doesn't prevent DeRosa from also being part of the dream.
At first, things seem normal. After DeRosa leaves, however, Diane has a vision. For a moment, she sees her long lost lover, Camilla. Oddly enough, when Camilla disappears Diane winds up standing in exactly the same spot where she imagined Camilla to be. We notice a wedding ring on her hand, but we don't see her husband. The coffee machine is a modern appliance, but Diane's fridge and stove seem to date back to the 1940's. Then things really get strange.
"So do you think that between these scenes we get to see her doing bad in that it depicts her being miserable and failing to fulfill her desires? And what do you think her desires are?"
She longs for but cannot be re-united with someone she loves.
https://ulozto.net/file/lzINO1Ng9Kpy/mulholland-dr-la-llorana-mp4
"Do you mean that Rita would like to be Betty? And that when Camilla turns out to be the real moviestar she has accomplished this? Do you consider this to be one of the unfulfilled wishes of the dreamer?"
Actually, it looks as if Betty is the better actress. Other than make out scenes, we never see any convincing evidence that Rita can act. This is where the 'prostitution' hypothesis comes into consideration. Did Rita/Camilla sleep with somebody to get ahead?
https://ulozto.net/file/qKwg5zjKciOG/mulholland-dr-rehearsal-mp4
"So do you think that the dreamer had an abortion (maybe due to rape) and this dream is how she copes with that. Cause if you believe this, the dreamer must be a woman."
Any interpretation may be valid, but I don't take the meaning so literally. I just see it as something the dreamer has repressed. In fact, from my point of view, the whole movie deals with the dreamer trying to see the truth, but he/she is unable to do so, because it is simply too upsetting. Going back to the car crash on Mulholland Drive, the truth was too glaring. Attempting to witness it literally destoryed Rita's ego. Then, at Winkie's it was too ugly, causing Dan to faint. At Ryan's Entertainment, it was too disgusting. In apartment 17, it was too frightening. And, watching Adam make out with Camilla was too outrageous. One exception to this pattern was what happened in Aunt Ruth's apartment, where the truth was simply unfathomable.
"Though it is an old and often used trope in Hollywood movies, most famous example being The Wizzard of Oz. In movies people dream all the time about themselves."
Dreams are almost always personal, no matter how you look at them. The Wizard of Oz, however, is purely a fantasy. MD is clearly intended to seem more like real life. The use of POV is an important clue.
`For example, Diane switched her apartment with her neighbor in Sierra Bonita.`
It seems that Diane is trying to dodge the police, but I think the crime drama aspect of the movie is just a 'red herring'. I must confess, however, that I can't think of any psychoanalytical explanation for why the neighbors switched apartments. Most of these changes occur right after Rita opens the blue box and vanishes into an abyss, but I don't know why. However, the fact that Diane's neighbor is willing to help proves, in my opinion, that they are more than casual acquaintances.
"If we are indeed witnessing the dreamer´s unconsious, how can we be sure of anything?"
We can look for elements that are repeated, such as the woman and the man carrying suitcases to a car outside of Diane's apartment. That seems to match what we saw in the beginning of the film. When Rita sneaks into Aunt Ruth's apartment, we see a man helping Aunt Ruth put suitcases in the back of a cab. Now, think like Freud. A man and woman carrying baggage. That means someone is pregnant. The birth of a new child means that the older sibling will get jealous of the younger one, because the parents will pay more attention to the new arrival.
We can look for elements that seem to be missing. At the beginning of the film, we see a bunch of people dancing, but where was Betty's partner? Later in the film we see Diane wearing a wedding ring, but where is her husband? What's almost completely repressed is what is most upsetting of all to the dreamer. The fundamental truth is that someone VERY important in the dreamer's life is not there. This absence is represented by the blue key that we see on Diane's coffee table.
We can tell how the dreamer feels. Remember that scene at Ryan's Entertainment, where a mafioso orders an expresso and then spits it out in disgust? We have no idea what they are doing there or why Adam MUST cast Camilla Rhodes in his film. But we DO know that someone is not happy.
"To be honest I´m not really a fan of Freud with his take on `everything stems from sexual frustration.` I have to admit I´m not that familiar with his work nor with psychology in general, but it seems to me that looking at the movie from a psychological perspective or any particular perspective does restrict ones vision."
Even Freud didn't think that dreams were self-explanatory. He felt you had to know something about the person who had the dream. Since MD is David Lynch's 'brain child', the question is, what does David Lynch believe? Suppose David Lynch read Freud's work on the Interpretation of Dreams and DELIBERATELY put sexual references in his film? Suppose Hitchcock did the same thing? If I'm right, then psychoanalysis will provide the best possible explanation for the film.
"What do you make of these references? Do you see them as repressed childhood fantasies that are bubbling to the surface? Do you see references to prostitution maybe? Do you believe they play a vital role in the deciphering of the dream?"
Yes in all cases.
"So what does Freud mean by displacement and what is the function of it?"
According to Freud, the purpose of displacement is to disguise the truth, otherwise it would be too upsetting to the dreamer.
[quote]The Cowboy tells Adam that `You´ll see me one more time when you do good. You´ll see me two more times if you do bad.` So what is it according to you that the dreamer has done that is bad?[/quote]
Let's suppose that what the cowboy tells Adam also applies to Diane. Even though I don't agree that the dreamer is Diane Selwyn, I do agree that she's imagining herself as Diane. After all, Diane IS sleeping in her bed. So, what has Diane done that is so wrong? She failed to fulfill her desires. That's why she's in pain. That's why she's ugly, and that's why she wished she were dead.
Notice the psychic connection between Betty and Rita. Betty may look happy, but you can tell that she's in pain.
https://ulozto.net/file/LT0KZjELtjgb/mulholland-dr-moviestar-ambitions-mp4
"I just came her from Deep River, Ontario, and now I'm in this... dream place. Well, you can imagine how I feel."
In my view, Betty and Rita are alter egos. Rita is the dreamer's ideal ego; the person that the dreamer imagines when she looks in the mirror. She saw a movie star, and that's who she thinks she is.
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/7f/33/Jrn3Jv7J_t.png
Betty is the dreamer's ego ideal; the person the dreamer would like to be.
"Well of course, I'd rather be known as a great actress, than a movie star. But, you know, sometimes people end up being BOTH. So, that is, I guess you'd say, sort of why I came here."
At some point, the two get so close, it seems as if you looking at just one person.
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/c4/a2/zhWLKtba_t.png
[quote]You seem to interpret the ending, when Diane shoots herself, as being still part of the dream. Can you tell me why you believe this is still a dream?[/quote]
1) The film doesn't end after Diane commits suicide. It continues for more than a minute until we find ourselves in Club Silencio. Then, only after La Bruja says 'silencio' does the screen turn black. Like I said, if Diane had been dreaming or hallucinating all along, the film should have ended immediately after she died.
2) I believe the dream begins in scene 2, where we see the bed. This scene is shot in POV. That is, we don't see WHO is going to bed, we just see the bed.
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/54/c0/fQ25IBgu_t.jpg
The person could have dreamed that she was a corpse, or dreamed that she woke up as Diane Selwyn. However, if the dream begins in POV it seems to me that it should have ended in POV, but the suicide scene was not filmed in POV.
3) You see familiar faces in dreams, but you rarely, if ever, see your own.
4) People can die in their dreams and even commit suicide. That doesn't mean they die in real life.
5) There is reason to suspect that this dream is a recurrent nightmare. Dan tells Herb at Winkie's that he had his dream twice. We see lots of things in duplicate. Duplicate apartments, both Rita and Diane ride in the back of the limo on Mulholland Dr., we see the cowboy twice, we see the corpse more than once, etc. Have a look at this clip. Betty and Rita are running out of Apartment 17, just after seeing the corpse. Do you get a sense of déjà vu?
https://ulozto.net/file/s4Kx85WEo1aH/mulholland-dr-deja-vu-mkv
"We also see Diane waking up from the exact same position as we have seen the corpse lie in the dream. To me that seems to suggest that there is a connection between the two."
Freud would call this displacement, which is changing one image into another. We see examples of it almost everywhere we look in the film. Betty becomes Diane. The waitress becomes Betty. Rita becomes Camilla. Coco becomes Adam's mother, etc. Other changes also occur. For example, Diane switched her apartment with her neighbor in Sierra Bonita. And, Diane replaced Rita in the back seat of the limo. Death becomes life and vice versa. But there is something else about the corpse that I find interesting. It's lying in the fetal position. Here's how I see it.
When Betty and Rita go to the Sierra Bonita apartments, they first have to pass through a narrow passageway.
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/b9/3c/MoXrufgz_t.png
I don't know about you, but I see a vagina. It follows that Apartment 17 is a metaphor for the womb and the corpse is a metaphor for abortion.
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/70/5b/kAuOqjKO_t.png
It could represent a dream that was never fulfilled, because it never even had a chance to see the light of day. But, I think it represents what Freud called primal repression. It is the very first thought or impulse that your mind ever repressed. It corresponds to the moment in time when your mind was first split into conscious and subconscious divisions.
"I can see you really love this movie and have thought about it extensively."
I've spent two months on this film already, and I still haven't put the jigsaw puzzle together.
"Since dreams draw heavily from our unconscious one might also say we see the person´s unconsiousness at work."
Have a look at this video. It's a brief introductory to dream analysis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Qcmhsvcms
Freud spent almost his entire career analyzing people's dreams, and he wrote a lot on the subject.
https://www.bartleby.com/285/
This is how I see the movie. YOU are Freud, and you have a patient sleeping on the couch in your office. There are wires attached to her head, which connect to a monitor that allows you to see what your patient sees when she's dreaming. Your task is to figure out what the dream means.
Freud believed that most dreams fulfill a childhood desire to have sex with one of your parents. Of course, lots of psychologists don't agree with him, but they didn't make the film, David Lynch did. If you look carefully, you'll see sexual innuendo almost everywhere in the film. The event at Club Silencio is the most striking example, but even an ashtray filled with cigarettes is a metaphor for sex. A key going into a hole, a collision between two automobiles, passing through a gate, etc, etc, etc.