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CluelessDrifter's Replies
" Somebody save us from this nightmare."
One can only hope. I'm not sure if the ratings are bad enough yet, but they're worse than they were in season 7, and the show got rid of Gamble (Sure, some of that is to be expected given the age of the show, but a drop like the one we've seen in recent weeks is to my mind the fans telling TPTB that they are not happy no matter how much praise TPTB are getting from social media). I guess it depends on how unhappy the cast is and how vocal they become about it as to whether or not we'll see a change in time to save the show. Sometimes those fans leave, and they don't come back, because they don't know about things like changes in who is running the show.
Yeah, I agree. I think it was almost entirely focused on Toni too. I can only imagine what the cast's reaction was when they got the script.
My 10 worst episodes of Supernatural:
10. Defending Your Life: I'm not a fan of pagan gods on this show. Plus, I thought that the reason for why Dean was on trial was just stupid. Though I did like seeing Jo come back for an episode.
9. Time for a Wedding: I'd forgotten about this episode and probably with good reason. Becky was the fan avatar in this show for a while, and what she did in this episode to Sam was so wrong and so over the top.
8. Fan Fiction: I get second-hand embarrassment from watching this episode. I generally don't like to feel that way when I watch something, and DemonDean was cut short for this. If they'd cured him in the 200th episode, I think that would've been a more fitting tribute to the show and fans (For a comparison look at Point of No Return, the 100th episode. Dean killing Zachariah was epic, and they could've done parallels between DemonDean being cured and Dean choosing not to be Michael's vessel).
7. Paper Moon: This is the episode we got immediately after DemonDean was cured. The anvils were plentiful with this episode, and it was a big let down overall, because I didn't particularly care whether or not we saw Kate the werewolf again.
6. Remember the Titans: I'm not a big fan of the pagan gods, or at least not the way they're portrayed on this show. They get them wrong. They're silly or boring depending on the episode. There's very little urgency in those episodes for some reason.
5. Fallen Idols: Paris Hilton (Imagine me shaking my head as I type that). That was a big strike, but I don't think that was the biggest strike against this episode for me. I think the conversation where Sam shoves the blame for going with Ruby on Dean was far worse than even Paris Hilton being in an episode.
4. #THINMAN: I don't like being treated like I'm unintelligent, and the heavy-handed anvils in this episode did that. They were so bad that I found them cringeworthy. They made me feel embarrassed for all involved, including the fans. I couldn't get past those to see anything of merit that might have also been in the episode.
3. Bloodlines: As I said in my previous response, I don't consider this episode to be part of Supernatural, and I guess if I think that, then it has to go on my 10 worst episodes list. ETA: (Basically, I don't think this deserves to be on a list of Supernatural episodes is what I guess I mean. You'd think that'd make it number one, but as it's such a non-entity for me, I've made it third).
2. LOTUS: This didn't feel like an episode of Supernatural either. It felt like Bloodlines if I'm being honest (Just with a Lucifer we've never seen as the lead), but I think it was worse than Bloodlines, because instead of having our heroes be shown as the experienced hunters they are, they were shown needing the help of the BMoL, who were only too ready with something that negated the urgency of season 5, and then they were shown to be incompetent by being caught at the end. It also started this nephilim storyline and is the catalyst for why Mary presumably decided to start working for the BMoL. There are big problems with both of those story lines, and I'm putting the blame for them on this episode.
1. Slumber Party. From the plot and dialogue to the graphics and the acting from everyone involved (even Jensen and Jared noticeably phoned it in), I despise this episode.
Dishonorable mentions: We Happy Few (Primarily for what they had Lucifer doing at the start of the episode - hiding out in Sam's room, blaring loud music, and acting like a petulant teenager), Heartache (It didn't make the top 10 even though it's a pagan god episode, because I give Jensen credit for directing this uninspired script), Red Sky at Morning (I just never liked this episode), Freaks and Geeks (not really a fan of Krissy, and this episode had a whole group of Krissys), and Man's Best Friend with Benefits.
ETA: Dishonorable mention: I totally forgot about Alpha & Omega. It was by far the worst season finale we've seen on this show.
10. Alpha and Omega: Hm. I'll have to go through my own list and see if it would make the bottom 10. Something tells me that it'll be edged out by other episodes, but it'd definitely be near the bottom.
9. I'm a little surprised that Clap Your Hands is on there. I quite like that episode.
8. Hibbing 911: I can see why Jody was off putting to some in that episode, because it's like they were trying to turn her into a cranky Bobby for some reason, but bottom 10? I don't think so.
7. #THINMAN: is definitely in my top 10 worst episodes. Just need to figure out where.
6. Slice Girls: For a MotW episode, the idea was not good considering it was never brought up again, and Dean had a kid; it turned out to be a monster, and then it died, but bottom 10? I don't think it was that bad.
5. Dog Dean Afternoon: I found this one cringeworthy at times, but again, I'm not sure it'd make the bottom 10 for me, because I do think that Jensen saved it.
4. Rock Never Dies: I'm not sure if it'd make my bottom 10. Parts of it annoyed me, but I tend to think of this as one to forget instead of one to hate. I guess maybe the bar is set so low for season 12 compared to previous seasons, and it surpassed that in having Sam and Dean act like Sam and Dean, and it had both of them present for the entire episode, so it doesn't seem as bad as one of the bottom 10 episodes when in previous seasons, it would have been?
3. TOYBWF: I certainly wasn't waiting for Hitler on this show. The episode itself was okay. The characters were in character, and there was a decent fight scene. But Hitler? I think if they'd just made it a random high ranking Thule member the others were trying to bring back, it would've been a good episode.
2. Bitten: Meh. I'm neither here nor there with Bitten. I thought it was better than Paper Moon.
1. Bloodlines: I honestly don't consider this an episode of Supernatural. The fans hated this episode, the series didn't get picked up, and now that Dabb's in charge of Supernatural, he's decided to change the feel of Supernatural to be more like Bloodlines, I think, it's just that instead of rich, dynastic, monster families, we have the BMoL.
You're right about there being a major tonal shift in Alpha & Omega. I'd actually say that it started several episodes before that with a noticeable drop in We Happy Few (it was all Rowena, Crowley, Lucifer, and Chuck in that episode), and what pushed it off the cliff was Alpha & Omega because too much of the episode revolved around Toni, the part of the episode leading up to the soul bomb idea dragged, and there was an obvious lack of any meaningful dialogue while everyone was waiting around in the bar for Dean to explode. It makes you wonder what the episode looked like before the actors got involved in trying to fix it. I have no doubts that it was worse.
I agree with everything you've said.
With Rock Never Dies, there are quite a few lines that stuck out to me.
"Lucifer: I've had my fill of the diehards. They already love me. Religion, celebrity, Twitter – it's all the same rules. If you're not gaining followers, you're losing followers. I want a different crowd tonight. New fans.
Manager: Look, getting a new audience is great for social media visibility, which is great for overall buzz, but they're fickle. They don't spend any money on music. They have no loyalty. Good luck translating their attention to album or ticket sales."
Seems like the network talking to a show runner to me. I guess that just looking at those two lines, which one is which is left up to how you decide to think of Dabb, but then there are these other remarks from the manager (earlier in the episode): "We've raided, repackaged, and resold everything else from our past . . . " (They seem to be doing this a lot this season)
And these from Lucifer (at the end): "Nothing down here but a bunch of hopeless distraction addicts, so filled with emptiness, so desperate to fill up the void… they don't mind being served another stale rerun of a rerun of a rerun."
Again, I guess it depends on which one you think is Dabb. Is he a petulant show runner who wants to gain new fans and do his own thing, maybe change a show that had 11 years of history before he got this job vs. the network (or possibly Bob Singer) saying, 'No, we need to keep the old fans and stick to a formula we know works'? Or is he the one who wants to stick with the formula and is being told to change it and get new fans? Personally, I think it's the former given his ideas on fan service and the way Lucifer killed the manager in the episode. It is interesting though.
"Someone needs to take Dabb to the woodshed for wrecking the Lamborghini."
Where's our resident whipping aficionado when we need him? ;)
I think a demon wouldn't entertain the notion of immortality as a deal. They'd probably trick the person into agreeing to something else.
The vampire question is an interesting one. I'm thinking it's down to the reaper?
This isn't the link to the interview you guys are talking about, but I thought I'd put it here, because I think it fits, and I find how Samantha sees Mary interesting.
http://ew.com/tv/2017/03/02/supernatural-samantha-smith-mary-winchester-season-12
These are my thoughts. I'm sort of where Dean was at the end of episode 12.2; looking through old photos (episodes) and trying to reconcile the woman we've been shown in the past to the woman we've got now. It makes it seem like she was never the woman we saw prior to this season (pilot, etc.), and the way Samantha sees it, she was that woman, she's just not that woman right now because of this journey she's been on this season.
I think they should've shown her journey if they wanted us to connect to her, and they just haven't done that. They had her leave and stay off-screen to deal with these issues when showing her going through these things would've been much more interesting. I'm not sure what they could've sacrificed to do it, but I'm thinking the Lucifer jumping from vessel to vessel at the start of the season would've been fine with me. This show is (or used to be) as much about characterization and character interactions as it is how the supernatural world impacts on the characters, and they've gotten really lazy with it lately, not just with Mary, but with Sam and Dean too.
Maybe that's what Cas was thinking about in the back of his mind at the end of The Prisoner, escorting Dean to the nearest launch pad.
Nope, Dean said that in 10.9, and Cas didn't get his grace back from Metatron until 10.18. He definitely would've had to go the space shuttle route.
Hmm. I hadn't really thought of that. Maybe Cas was already close, and DemonDean teleported in front of him, DemonDean's sole focus was on Sam, and Cas tip toed the rest of the way? I was never sure how Dean expected Cas to throw him into the sun if Cas can't fly. Was Cas supposed to build a space shuttle and set coordinates for the sun? But then Dean also asked Cas to smite him just before that, and Cas can't do that anymore either. They've really de-powered Cas, haven't they?
"It is these little things that kind of put me off Mary from that point . . ."
See, fighting while she was pregnant isn't what put me off of Mary, but the way she lied to John for over 10 years and basically left him to figure out everything on his own after she died might have made me think of her as flawed, someone who wasn't a hapless victim of circumstance the way she was portrayed at the start, and someone who was at least partially responsible for the way John turned out as a father.
I'm not sure what telling John about everything would've changed, but I think if she'd trained him, maybe they could've worked on the YED problem together before she died. Even if she'd still died, John wouldn't have had to spend decades finding out about the supernatural world to the exclusion of everything else, presumably starting with small things to get more experience, while also learning as much as possible about the thing that killed his wife, so he could kill it and keep Sam under it's radar until it was dead.
I think he knew it would come for Sam again, since it was in Sam's nursery. I think that's why he reacted so badly to Sam running away when he was 14 and why he reacted so badly when Sam went to college. What he sacrificed in pursuit of those things was Dean (Dean's childhood, self worth, etc.) and having a fatherly relationship with both of his sons. John was a deeply flawed character with depth, but they don't seem to be giving the same kind of depth to Mary.
I think before this season, I was willing to see Mary as interesting, flawed and somewhat like Sam. Sam didn't tell Jess about his family or past, not just because he wanted to have a normal life and keep Jess from running for the door, but because after having left the life, he seemed to naively believe that the supernatural wouldn't still come after him (Again if John had ever been honest with his sons and told Sam why he didn't want Sam moving away/staying in one place, Jess would probably still be alive. If Sam had been honest with Jess, then the same thing is true. It's another issue of people lying by omission about what they know and Dean, Sam, and the people close to them suffering for those omissions).
But the thing that now differentiates Mary from Sam in my mind is that we've found out that she was still hunting, which makes less sense than what Sam did, because even if the YED hadn't given her a 10-year deadline, any of the things she hunted in those 10 years (or their packs/families) could have followed her home. While Sam didn't have any real reason to think that, since he didn't remember the striga and Dean kept anything like that from happening again, Mary had first-hand experience with something following her home after a hunt, namely the YED. It's what killed her parents, so I doubt she'd forget that lesson.
To me, these are all things that need to be addressed, and they haven't been. Mary still thinks of John as a bit of a softie, a good dad (even though she's been reading his journal, we haven't seen that her opinion in this regard has changed), and the only thing we've seen to counter that was a look from Dean that said otherwise but that she didn't seem to catch. None of the things she did or didn't do during those 10 years when it came to the YED or hunting have been discussed, and you're right. If they'd shown her as having tried and failed to do something about her deal, it would make her more relatable.
I think the only way to have her be redeemed is for her to have the BMoL blow up in her face and for her to go to her sons, hat in hand, say she was wrong, and make an active effort to get to know her sons as they are now. It'd almost clear the slate and have her doing something they should've had her do at the start of the season (get to know her adult sons).
If she's having problems adjusting to them being adults, I can understand that. While Dean and Sam have both been gone for extended periods of time, the other one was pretty much the same when they got back (i.e. while Dean had been in Hell for 40 years, it'd only been 4 months to Sam and vice versa when Sam's soul was in the cage). Mary's story is unique in that sense. I can also understand her struggling with new technology even though she seems to have caught on pretty well to the BMoL gadgets without any problems. But both of those things are issues she should've dealt with on screen. Taking her off-screen to deal with them leaves a lot of her journey incomplete and makes her less likable when all we seen on-screen is the cold, hard, lying hunter.
"Though isn't it funny that this is a Toni thread and its turned into a discussion about Mary and no one has complained?"
I find it liberating. Breathing a sigh of relief now as I hit 'add reply.'
"But her going into that fight to help distract Anna while Sam does a sigil without that then pleading her belly well it kind of makes her more selfishly impulsive than maternal."
But it's not like she knew about the sigil at that point. Sam drew the sigil while Anna was preoccupied with the others, but it's not like they had a plan walking into the garage, and Anna had just gone through John and Dean. Mary picked up the angel blade that Dean dropped and did what she thought she had to do to save herself and the others. Impulsive? Maybe, but when not being impulsive in the hunter life can get you killed, because you wait too long to act, then I think she did the right thing.
"I get what you are saying about Sam and Mary, but that really speaks to the arrested development in Sam and I find that kind of sad in a guy in their thirties."
Yeah, I thought they made pretty good strides in maturing Sam last season, and I do think this is backsliding or that having Mary around is regressing Sam, but I also think that now he has his Mom telling him that it's okay if he wants to have that apple pie life (which I find odd considering she never really had one if she continued to hunt), and somehow, I think that in Sam's mind, it gives him permission to do whatever it takes to have what he's always wanted. There's a lot that's missing from this storyline if this is the way they're going with it. She hasn't addressed that she still hunted and therefore never had a 'normal' life, and Sam hasn't addressed what exactly he'd do if the world were rid of monsters. What is he going to be content to be a handyman at another rundown motel while his brother does . . . what?
"As for delving into Mary's relationship with her sons. I think they've dropped the ball on it with all three of them. Sam's issues in wanting to know, why Mary has these skills, Dean's anger."
I think they've done a good job with Dean's anger. I just don't think they've done a good job with the way they've had Mary respond to that anger, so it dampens his position. It's pretty hard to have an argument and get it to go anywhere if the other party doesn't respond.
"But if the writing had painted it as if she was looking for something to break the deal and occasionally came across a monster she killed (the Asa episode) then I think it fandom would understand why she is the way she is now, would be warmer with her. If they had shown that she knew it was coming, she tried to fix it all on her own and failed, she can't look her sons in the eye because she failed, so she grabbed hold of the one thing that made her feel in control (hunting). Then this organisation which she didn't have when she really needed help to stop the deal offers her a way to try and make a world her boys could live in peace like she supposedly wanted. She is trying belatedly to make it right and doesn't know how to communicate that because that means she is admitting she right royally fucked up!"
I agree.
"But they haven't really though they've shown her knowing Azazel's name,"
No, they haven't followed through on Mary knowing Azazel's name, but we do know she recognized him in the nursery, and all she said was 'you'. Maybe she finally got Azazel's name from John's journal. I think the important thing is that there's only so much information she can get from John's journal, which presumably stopped when John died if she thought Azazel was still alive (Meaning Dean and Sam haven't added anything to it). She's been trying to read between the lines on what her sons were doing while her husband hunted instead of filling in those blanks by asking them. I think Dean even referenced this at one point.
I know I've seen other places that some people think that she may have had conversations off screen with her sons about their lives (before she left in episode 3). If she didn't even know that Azazel was dead, then I think this proves that she didn't have those conversations or if she did that Dean and Sam were barely scratching the surface, because they thought they'd have more time and could slowly reveal everything (like Dean said to Cas in episode 2). She can't possibly know that Dean went to Hell, or that her sons stopped the Apocalypse or anything else they've done unless she's getting a skewed idea of their accomplishments from the BMoL, and yet she thinks she knows best and decides to join the BMoL, so she can rid the world of monsters for her sons. Seriously, I'd like to know what she thinks her sons will do without hunting. She couldn't just give it up, but she thinks they can?
" we have the episode in season 5 where she goes into a fight with an angel knowing she was in her first trimester then pleads her belly to stay with her husband."
On this I disagree with you. I think Mary had every right to defend herself from Anna. If she'd simply hidden behind her sons and ran around the house or tried to hide from Anna, it would've been a similarly precarious situation, because Anna was a fully-powered angel who could find her anywhere, so Mary deciding to fight did little to change the overall threat to Dean's life. Just because she was pregnant doesn't mean that she could shut down her natural instincts, and Mary fighting back fit with the character we'd been shown she was in Season 4. I think the problem is that she's no longer that character. In season 4 and 5, there was some warmth to Mary, some naive hope, and now they've completely overhauled that to give us what we're seeing now.
The way I originally found it was on the IMDB twitter account after the boards had been closed. I kept seeing it pop up and thought I'd check it out. I don't think it'd even been a week at that point, maybe a few days at most, and there weren't any people here, so I didn't come back until I saw Bella's post on the WC site.
Ah, you did some research. Guess you could also see what I wrote about Claire in the Ladies Drink Free thread.
I'm not sure that if she's in Hell, Crowley would have her bullwhipping herself for all eternity, since he prefers the line at the BMV method of torture or whatever it was he had Bobby doing in his cell. She'd probably just end up rolling her eyes and huffing for all eternity in a line or in her own personal cell. And that's if she gets 'cured,' which it looks like she might. If she didn't, she'd probably just end up in Purgatory.
The thing with Gavin is that by bringing him back in season 9 you had a legitimate reason for why Crowley had Bobby in Taxi Driver, because it basically meant that Bobby never got out of his contract. I guess it could be said that Bobby didn't get out of his contract, because Gavin didn't hate his dad when he got sent back and didn't tell Bobby where Crowley's bones were, but that'll never be said in canon.
Again research is key. You can easily find what I've said about Claire on here.
I'm not on those boards. Just familiar with this one. And on here you are the sole royal of scourging, although I am disappointed to hear you're just copying others.
It's not my job to do your research for you. You'll be more successful if you do it yourself.
What I find interesting is that you obviously watch the same show as everyone here, have certain characters you don't like, most of whom almost everyone here dislikes, but somehow only come up with this one phrase or variations of said phrase to convey that. Is it a time saving thing?
Tsk. Tsk. If you want to be the best at something, then you need to be aware of your competition in every facet of your life.