MovieChat Forums > The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (2022) Discussion > Any real fan would realize that logicall...

Any real fan would realize that logically, the Second Age SHOULD be more diverse than the Third.


Second Age human geopolitics was dominated by the Numenorean Empire, a colonial empire that reached from Arnor in the north, to Harad in the south, and encompassed vast territories in between. Numemor had started out with a population made up of whoever had survived the destruction of Beleriand, the "gleanings" of many tribes, whatever ethnicity or color they may have been. Then, like the Roman Empire in real life, their nation took over many others, and if their subject peoples had any rights, the Numenorean Empire would have been made up of many peoples of many nations, languages, and colors, and logically there should gave been a lot of immigration and intermarriage within the Empire.

There were also more dwarves than at the end of the 3rd Age, they had more cities and more power, and more of the "Seven Tribes" were around. Since Tolkien never went into detail about their various groups, there's no reason to assume that all of them resembled caucasian humans. And since Hobbits were always described as having curly hair, brown eyes, and skin that ranged from fair to brown, there's no problem with diverse casting there!

Really, the only problem with diverse casting would be among the elves, who usually invariable described as pale and fair... but im willing to allow diversity there too, just because it makes the racists heads explode. Fuck off out of the fandom, assholes! You're not real fans, you know shit about Prof. Tolkien, or what he believed in or the messages he was trying to put across.

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All I care about is that the story lines involve the evolution and eventual downfall of the Men who rose from the 1st Age (the Numenoreans). Their legacy in the 3rd Age is referred to often in the movie trilogy so if the RoP showrunners diverge from that and instead create CW-level teenage drama I might be disappointed.

To be fair we just don't really know and most of the talk online has been speculation, as well as all the butthurt Racialist Non-Fans who think they're Gatekeepers of Tolkien's legacy. Most of the are Gen Z gamerTARDs who never used a VCR.

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You mean racist neckbeards who've never cracked a Tolkien book, and who don't realize there were Maoris in the LOTR movies!

They have no place in the fandom. Even the squealing movie fangurls had more right to belong!

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there were Maoris in the LOTR movies!


Ok, and?

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The people who disagree with me are morally bad... typical argument.

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In this case, that IS the case.

Fuck off, racists!

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Really, the only problem with diverse casting would be among the elves, who usually invariable described as pale and fair... but im willing to allow diversity there too, just because it makes the racists heads explode.


Seriously though. The net positive of offending white supremacist sensibilities should make any decent person more open to diverse casting. Especially when there is the very telling fact that there are apparently far more significant liberties being taken with the lore than the skin color a few characters. Liberties that none of these disingenuous people are making a fuss about because almost all of it is being done in bad faith. The real source of this bad faith grievance can be found in this thread topic that we need to keep bumped on the front page for everyone to see.

https://moviechat.org/tt7631058/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-The-Rings-of-Power/620dfd7f7836e53b245b8729/A-site-Im-surprised-has-a-LOTR-board-but-some-of-you-already-knew-that



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There are no significant population of w.s. fans. So, there is not "net positive" from offending them. That is silly.

THe real question is, why do you want to divide the fandom by politicizing the I.P.

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There are no significant population of w.s. fans.

https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4

That's a lie that white supremacists love to tell because they enjoy hiding in plain sight like the cowards they are. However, your buddy in his now deleted post from that screenshot accidentally exposed that LOTR is a VERY popular topic on the infamous white supremacist website(which gets traffic in the millions) with the exact same racial grievances that your friends are arguing here.

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Not a lie. Actual w.s. are a vanishingly small fringe. The vast majority of people accused of w.s. are not. The accusations have more to do with the accusers being dishonest than any actual wacism.

Teh real question is, why do you(plural) want to divide the fandom by politicizing the IP.

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Yes the lie that white supremacists like to tell about themselves being a "fringe" & minuscule non threat is so people won't do anything about them. The FBI doesn't list white supremacists as the #1 domestic terror threat byecause they're so rare. And like i said, your buddy in the link below exposed the fact that this exact same "totally not about white supremacy" grievance is being rabidly discussed on the biggest white supremacist website on the internet which gets traffic runs in the millions.

https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4

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So, how many w.s. are there? Link please.

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The problem I have with your comment is that I see woke lefties condemn literally EVERYTHING touching matters of race that is anything other than uncritically approving as "white supremacy." And when it has descended to the point where "professionalism" (i.e. attention to detail, punctuality, etc.) are now being labeled as "white supremacy culture," then I'm sorry, this has simply become ludicrous, and I have a very hard time taking complaints of "white supremacy," seriously, because all to often, that essentially means "agree with everything I say or you're a racist."

The casting of black people as elves and dwarves is troubling for a number of reasons, none of them racist. First, this is material based on northern European mythology. One would expect the characters to resemble northern Europeans, except where Tolkien explicitly depicted people differently (e.g. the Haradrim, the Woses, possibly the Dunlendings, etc.), and the fact that they are being shoehorned into roles that seem inappropriate is not the problem in and of itself, it's the forced diversity is a symptom of the real problem: wokeness, which entails pushing a narrative, and when an agenda is prioritized over storytelling, we've got a serious problem. We've seen a bunch of movies and TV shows that prioritized "representation" in the past several years (I've listed them on another thread), and they all sucked.

As a matter of fact I personally am as much or more bothered by the liberties I fear they will take with the material, because I know they don't have the rights to The Silmarillion. All they've got is the rights to The Lord of the Rings (inluding the appendices) and the Hobbit. And so I am extremely worried about how they are going to treat material that Tolkien wrote about most extensively in a book to which they don't have the screen rights.

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The problem I have with your comment is that I see woke lefties condemn literally EVERYTHING touching matters of race that is anything other than uncritically approving as "white supremacy.
o

https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4

^I'm afraid there's no room left for white supremacists or white supremacist deniers (usually the same thing) to hide behind plausible deniability when one of your buddies inadvertently exposes the fact that no one is making "EVERYTHING" being about race but rather pointing out the fact that this specific bad faith grievance being regurgitated is identical to what "fans" are extensively complaining about on the degenerate cesspool that happens to be the biggest white supremacist website on the internet.

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And there it is. The Kafka trap. Denying you are racist is proof that you are racist! Denying that everything shows white supremacy is proof that everything shows white supremacy. And you are a denier!

Time to dunk the witch. If she floats, BURN HER!!! If she drowns, she was innocent. Too bad that won't do her any good, but... gotta root out those witches after all.

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"Simply denying I'm racist makes me a racist?" No. "Denying I'm a racist while expressing the exact the same racialized rhetoric as the white supremacist LOTR "fans" on stormfront (A website i likely frequent but am too much of a sniveling, lying coward to admit) makes me a racist?" Yes. https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4

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If any racist piece of slime has ever said something that echoes something I have said at some point, that does not make me a racist. I have no control over what other people say. I have never visited Stormfront, so I don't know what specific arguments they are making, and I don't particularly care. Not only is Stormfront is a site I've never visited, I'm not going to follow a link to it -- I don't want such trash in my browser history.

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Seriously though. The net positive of offending white supremacist sensibilities should make any decent person more open to diverse casting.

How do you figure that? This is food and drink to white supremacists, the best recruitment poster they could hope for. No one likes to be preached to.

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The idea that a couple of black characters in a fantasy show constitutes "preaching" is exactly the kind of preaching that white supremacist moviechat posters themselves admit is happening on certified white supremacist cesspools like stormfront(dot)org https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4

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Your sentence is a mess. Suffice it to say, it's not a matter of "a couple of black characters". It's how you do it. There are black people in Middle Earth as Tolkien wrote it. But will black people be included in Middle Earth that way? Or in the same way we recognise from all other mainstream media? When you include black characters simply for the sake of diversity, they become token black characters, and that is both counter-immersive and preachy.

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Again https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4 White supremacists on moviechat & their official websites are "preaching" the exact same complaint. They've already told on themselves & nobody else is buying the "authenticity" excuse. There are those of us firmly against white supremacists & their degenerate sensibilities, who don't straddle the fence. People who wouldn't have cared either way about the casting but ultimately see it for the innocuous, artistic choice that it is. The fact that white supremacists are upset about it turns something innocuous into a positive.

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I'm not clicking your links. But saying "bad guys are saying the same thing" is not an argument - it's a fallacy. People don't like being preached to whether they deserve the preaching or not. Just because they take one extreme, doesn't mean you have to take the opposite extreme or you're "one of them".

And no, it's not an innocuous, artistic choice. The LotR trilogy had innocuous casting, and that ended up with an all-white cast - and there were complaints. When it's a fantasy setting that has hitherto been rendered as white, which is only natural as it is based on northern European folklore. This has nothing to do with white supremacy, although obviously they're going to cry the loudest. But just because they have a lower threshold for complaining about racial matters, doesn't mean all such complaints are invalid. Ironically, if that were the case, you wouldn't have any reason to complain about NO diversity, either.

Besides, Amazon made it an advertising point that they had so much diversity - so clearly, they didn't just "happen" to cast minorities in different roles.

Game of Thrones did diversity the way it's supposed to be done. They had lots of different ethnicities, but each culture was homogenous. And that's what we want to see in a fantasy setting: categories that everyone fits neatly into. So in Middle Earth, Easterlings are like this, Dunlendings are like that; the Vanyar are like this, the Eldar like that. So a myriad of different races, different sub-races, but with little to no cultural exchange between these groups. This is what we want from high fantasy, which deals with matters in pretty much black and white. These are the good guys, those are the bad guys. Good and evil. This doesn't mirror the real world at all, but it provides a symmetry we find pleasing. Round pegs in round holes. Adding diversity to make match the diversity we know from our lives only makes it less unique. It only makes it superficially different from all the other movies and series which do the same. No one asked for it - there have been Tolkien fans for seven decades now and lack of diversity was never a complaint. This modern brand of diversification is very conspicuous, easily recognisable as belonging to the Zeitgeist, and therefore counter-immersive.

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This has nothing to do with white supremacy, although obviously they're going to cry the loudest. But just because they have a lower threshold for complaining about racial matters, doesn't mean all such complaints are invalid.


"Just because I'm making the exact same racialized complaints as white supremacists doesn't mean this has anything to do with white supremacy does it?" I'm afraid so. White supremacists and their degenerate ideology is just one big contradiction. Ironic indeed https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4

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Just because I'm making the exact same racialized complaints as white supremacists doesn't mean it has anything to do with white supremacy

Your words, not mine. They're not the exact same complaints, numbnuts. Not even close. Have I been complaining about "cultural marxism", for example? Here's a big difference between them and me: I agree with the message the series' creators are trying to portray with diversity. White supremacists don't. However, just because I agree with a message doesn't mean I enjoy having it forced down my throat.

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As I said, people like myself who take a firm stance against white supremacists & their degenerate views find the casting to be a rather innocuous artistic choice & would have been fine with it either way. It's only white supremacists and YOU "coincidentally" who have a specific problem with it & both feel something is being "shoved down your throat". No real wiggle room to reconcile that shared view with WS outside of a steady stream of "because I said so" logic which white supremacists are very well-versed in. https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4

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As I said, people like myself who take a firm stance against white supremacists & their degenerate views find the casting to be a rather innocuous artistic choice & would have been fine with it either way.

You do not speak for all of us. I also take a firm stance against white supremacists and their degenerate views, and yet I see this casting decision in a very different light.


It's only white supremacists and YOU "coincidentally" who have a specific problem with it & both feel something is being "shoved down your throat".

No, this is where you are entirely wrong. If you choose to equate this sort of criticism with white supremacy I am not surprised you would come to this conclusion, but you have no rationale for drawing such a parallel.


No real wiggle room to reconcile that shared view with WS outside of a steady stream of "because I said so" logic which white supremacists are very well-versed in.

But it's not a shared view, is it? By your logic, one must love everything a white supremacists hates, including cow dung, or you would have to be on yourself. The reason why I don't like the casting decision is not the same reason why they don't like it. I suppose it is possible for white supremacists to hate it for the same reasons I do, but in that case it isn't because of racial hatred.

It used to be that white people were cast in virtually every non-white historical role - be it Moses, the Dowager-Empress Tzu-Hsi, Ben Yussuf or Genghis Khan. Back then it wasn't because they were pushing an agenda - it was simply unconscious prejudice, and as such those movies are a quaint testimony of their own times. But do the same today, and you would be without excuse. You, however, should have no objection to a similar casting today, lest you were a hypocrite - surely it'd just be "innocuous". But I would object on the exact same grounds that I object here: the casting is the result of an obvious agenda. And here's the thing: I don't care if I agree with the agenda or not. If you make it obvious, if you make it about the agenda rather than about the story, then you're ruining it. Propaganda feels sick no matter what the agenda.

Take this Simpsons bit, for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnwKKjTFU3U

I am fully on the side of the Simpsons here, politically, but that was just god-awful. It's incredibly cringe, laying it on so thick that you can't possibly call it anything but propaganda.

See what I'm getting at? People can have two thoughts in their heads at the same time. I don't have to love the things you love or hate the things you hate, and you don't get to label me as "one of them" because I'm not 100% with you.

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"You do not speak for all of us. I also take a firm stance against white supremacists and their degenerate views, and yet I see this casting decision in a very different light."

You clearly don't. At least not in this case. I'd love to hear about these supposed firm stances you've taken against the rampant white supremacist shitposting from the admitted stormfronters who frequent moviechat e.g. https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4

"But it's not a shared view, is it? By your logic, one must love everything a white supremacists hates, including cow dung, or you would have to be on yourself"

A rather bad faith, false equivalency. A white supremacist's complaint about black actors being cast in a fantasy show is inescapably tied to their inherent anti-black, white supremacist views. Their opinion on "cow dung" or ice cream is not.

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You clearly don't. At least not in this case.

I clearly do, especially in this case. I just said so in your quoting me, I don't see how much clearer I can get.

Mind you, you were the one to bring up white supremacy. There was no need to denounce white supremacy before then, because it wasn't the topic. If you want to see me argue against white supremacists, well I would have to encounter them first, then, wouldn't I? And I have in different boards, none of which are remotely relevant to this discussion.

I'm not clickin links I can't identify, by the way. An imgur link could be anything.

A rather bad faith, false equivalency. A white supremacist's complaint about black actors being cast in a fantasy show is inescapably tied to their inherent anti-black, white supremacist views. Their opinion on "cow dung" or ice cream is not.

It is, if their objection is that cow dung is brown. And sure it's a false equivocation - but then you were the one to start with that, so I thought it appropriate. How about this, then:

A white supremacist hates rap music because it's "black music".
I also hate rap music. Am I a white supremacist therefore? No, because it's not the "blackness" of the music I object to. Just as with Lord of the Rings: it's not that I don't want to see black people in key roles, it's because I'm a purist. If Tolkien say it was like this or that, then this or that is how I want it. What Amazon does is reject the diversity that Tolkien included, and substituting it with their own which doesn't even make sense in the lore. And it is painfully obvious why they are doing so. They care more about virtue signalling than story telling, and I have only negative things to say about that.

Of course, if they were to do a complete reworking of the entire lore, putting another twist on it, like what has been done with Shakespeare (modern settings or entirely foreign settings), then that would be an artistic choice I could respect and enjoy. Like I said here:

https://moviechat.org/tt7631058/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-The-Rings-of-Power/620bd872bbc0e93442d102ba/Why-dont-Woke-Washers-do-like-Akira-Kurosawa-did

I wouldn't mind a complete rework of Tolkien to make it adhere to Asian or African lore, for example - with eg. all black elves and mostly black everything else. See, the lore of Middle Earth comes from a place. If something is based on Asian lore, I want it to be Asiacentric. If based on African lore, I want it to be afrocentric. And if based on European lore, I want it to be Euro-centric. Can you tell me why you think there is something wrong with that?

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"I clearly do, especially in this case. I just said so in your quoting me, I don't see how much clearer I can get."

That's not how it works. Simply saying you do without backing it up doesn't mean anything. It carries little weight when all anyone sees you doing here is peddling the same complaints about black actors as admitted white supremacists.

"And if based on European lore, I want it to be Euro-centric. Can you tell me why you think there is something wrong with that?"

A non racist does not see black actors in a particular adaptation as an afront to a Euro-centric based fantasy & most certainly would not be willing to stand shoulder to shoulder in agreement with white supremacists like this https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4 with the claim that black actors = something being "shoved down their throat".

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That's not how it works. Simply saying you do without backing it up doesn't mean anything.

Just how am I supposed to back it up in an internet forum? Besides, I have nothing to prove to you. You want to accuse me of something, you back it up.


It carries little weight when all anyone sees you doing here is peddling the same complaints about black actors as admitted white supremacists.

No one has seen me do that, because I have not done anything of the kind. The fact that we happen to complain about the same thing is irrelevant. Trump complained about Obama-care because he hates Obama. And let's be honest, Trump hates Obama because Trump is a racist. However, Democrats also complained about Obama-care. But that doesn't make the complaints equal. Even though Trump dressed up his complaints to make them sound reasonable: he didn't say "ACA bad because Obama black", he said "ACA bade because it doesn't work" - which sounds a lot like the complaints made by people with honest motives. This in no way invalidates criticism of Obama-care.

You act as if something becomes morally immune from criticism if white supremacists also criticise it, and that is fallacious. You can't say "complaining about X is bad because bad people complain about X" - all complaints should be treated on their merits.

A non racist does not see black actors in a particular adaptation as an afront to a Euro-centric based fantasy

Here's the thing: white supremacists see it as an affront to their white heritage. I don't. What I find offensive is that they secure the rights not to tell a story, but to push an agenda. It doesn't matter what the agenda is, and like I already pointed out, I agree with this agenda. But don't hijack someone else's work to do it.

I don't mind the Marvel adaptations of Norse folklore. If anything, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and I am all for "cultural appropriation" - which certain self-proclaimed anti-racist somehow claim is a racist thing. But the Marvel universe of Thor did their own thing. I have zero interest in it myself, but they seem to be popular and best wishes to them. They didn't secure the rights of an unrelated intellectual property with a huge existing fan base to do their own thing.

Amazon, on the other hand, secured the rights to LotR and the Hobbit - but nothing else. And while they are hogging the rights, no one else can make an adaptation and do the Tolkien universe justice. The entire fandom is stuck with Amazon for quite some time ahead, and there is no hope of anything remotely resembling devotion to the actual works of Tolkien. Amazon is milking a cash cow, and for that purpose and that purpose only they are pushing whatever agenda they feel will reach the biggest segments of young people. That means they push a multi-cultural agenda, making Middle Earth look like the same conglomerate of ethnicities as in modern day USA. They don't care about fans of the books - this is beyond dispute, because they set the series to the second age without having the rights to the Silmarillion - they care about making money from a new fan base. If the existing fan base don't like it, tough titty - we're not doing this for you.


& most certainly would not be willing to stand shoulder to shoulder in agreement with white supremacists like this https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4 with the claim that black actors = something being "shoved down their throat".

Do you realise that different people on the internet are, in fact, different people? Sock puppets notwithstanding. How is that link relevant to anything I have said? That's a thread I haven't even visited.

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Just how am I supposed to back it up in an internet forum? Besides, I have nothing to prove to you. You want to accuse me of something, you back it up.


Here's the thing: white supremacists see it as an affront to their white heritage. I don't. What I find offensive is that they secure the rights not to tell a story, but to push an agenda. It doesn't matter what the agenda is, and like I already pointed out, I agree with this agenda. But don't hijack someone else's work to do it.





It's standard practice for white supremacist types to say one thing one minute & completely contradict themselves the next. Ironically, it's doing just that to claim to be against white supremacist racism yet at the same time stand in agreement with this that black actors = "agenda", "forced", "propaganda", "hijacked" while non racists like myself & others who have long enjoyed LOTR(Typo Nazi edit) simply see it as an innocuous casting decision that will have no bearing on the quality of the production or our potential enjoyment. I'm quite content to let the white supremacist types cry about it & you're welcome to continue crying right along with them.




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It's standard practice for white supremacist types to say one thing one minute & completely contradict themselves the next.

What sort of Kafkaesque nonsense is this? Feel free to point out where you think I have contradicted myself, and I will explain to you why I have not. But this is getting closer and closer to "it's typical of a witch to deny she's a witch".


while non racists like myself

You are virtue-signalling entirely too much for anyone to take that seriously. It seems your MO is to claim the moral high ground by accusing people of being racists, thus distracting from having to reply to their actual arguments - and indeed, you have yet to address my arguments.

who have long enjoyed LOTOR

The abbreviation is LotR. As anyone who has "long enjoyed" it would know.

simply see it as an innocuous casting decision

You keep repeating that, but I have debunked this twice to you already. You have yet to respond.

I'm quite content to let the white supremacist types cry about it & you're welcome to continue crying right along with them.

But you are not willing to have a discussion. You are all to happy to simply spout your opinion, but a discussion would require you to actually address what has been said, and all you do is dodge. Meanwhile, I have addressed everything you have said. This gives me the moral high ground.

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"You keep repeating that, but I have debunked this twice to you already. You have yet to respond."

You keep going all around the world but have yet to explain how the casting issue has any meaningful impact beyond those with shared views of the white supremacist stormfront crowd. You and butthurt white supremacists throwing out words like "Agenda" "Forced down throat", "propaganda" & "agenda" isn't debunking anything. Adapted works are always subject to artistic license with sometimes small & large changes. This was true with the Peter Jackson LOTR films & almost everything else. Essensially everyone, including these white supremacists complaining about black people now were fine with the changes then. It's all in bad faith.



"You are virtue-signalling entirely too much for anyone to take that seriously. It seems your MO is to claim the moral high ground by accusing people of being racists, thus distracting from having to reply to their actual arguments"

Making my position clear against white supremacist sentiment on this issue is "virtue signaling" according to you. I don't have to "accuse" anyone as the ws stormfront racists that you agree with have already told on themselves.
https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4

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You and butthurt white supremacists

What about black people who are also complaining about it

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Is that a thing? I certainly haven't seen it & a few anecdotal examples of contrarians wouldn't change anything & somehow validate the complaints from the stormfront crowd.

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I certainly haven't seen it

Ahh well if you haven't seen it then it can't be happening as you obviously speak for every black person out there.

You literally just saying that means you know nothing and just spout the term racist when ever anyone disagrees with you.

Go search youtube and see real black fans who are calling out this bullshit and tokenisation. But i guess in your eyes they don't count as it is only white men who are complaining. Yeh what utter tripe and nonsense.

complaints from the stormfront crowd

You mean tolkien fans. You are labelling Tolkien fans as white supremacists and racists for wanting an accurate reteeling of his work. Wow. One day you might learn a new trick. By repeating the same thing to yourself doesn't make it true you know.

Now do what you do best so we can all laugh at you and call me a racist and white supremacist without knowing anything about me and go away.

How does a dwarve living underground without seeing sunlight have black skin? The answer is the very reason there are no black dwarves in Tolkiens works as if they were real they wouldn't and couldn't exist.

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"Ahh well if you haven't seen it then it can't be happening as you obviously speak for every black person out there.

You literally just saying that means you know nothing and just spout the term racist when ever anyone disagrees with you.

Go search youtube and see real black fans who are calling out this bullshit and tokenisation. But i guess in your eyes they don't count as it is only white men who are complaining. Yeh what utter tripe and nonsense."

Something is either commonplace or it isn't. The only evidence I've seen of black people complaining about this is the claim of a an anonymous person on the internet. Not really a lot to go on there. Open white supremacists and their gatekeepers are complaining about it across all of social media. It's pretty much unavoidable to see & doesn't require anecdotal research.


"You mean tolkien fans. You are labelling Tolkien fans as white supremacists and racists for wanting an accurate reteeling of his work. Wow. One day you might learn a new trick. By repeating the same thing to yourself doesn't make it true you know."

Dude. These WS stormfront "Tolkien fans" admitting it themselves what this is about e.g.
https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4

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So you won't answer my very simple and easy question and keep referring to Tolkien fans in such a way. I know why you won't answer as it destroys your entire arguement. Let me guess your next reply will be "well it is just fantasy, what does it matter". Ok then it is just fantasy and fiction. Why didn't Frodo just get beamed up to Mount Doom by the Enterprise, it is only fiction. Maybe they can have mobile phones and mp3 players.

Your only reply is to a imgur link which I won't click on as it could be abosultely anything. Out of curioisty i did have a look at it. Nothing in that link is white supremacist or racist. Infact he is spot on and has shown exactly what is happening now we also have Galadriel Warrior Princess.

As I expected and to be honest not suprised in the least to see you have no rebuttles, no answers, nothing to offer to the discussion except "muh racism".

Wanting Tolkiens work to be told as the man wrote it isn't racist, it isn't white supremacist or any other ist you want to throw out.

If you want colourblind casting then why do we get all black shows and movies and noone complains. Odd that it is as if they are hypocrites.

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It's a rather weak argument there are numerous things that cannot scientifically exist in the LOTR universe the stormfront crowd isn't concerned about. The link is screenshot of a regular moviechat poster & stormfront user outing himself & what is gripe with LOTR is really about. You probably agree with each other a lot. https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4

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Still can't answer my question. Why is that I wonder.

I love how you keep referring to Tolkien fans as stormfront as somehow you think it adds more weight to your aguement. It doesn't, just makes you look foolish.

I dod read the post. I even stated that in my reply above. You obviously didn't read it. Again no real suprise there.

What he wrote was not racist, was not white supreamcist or any other ism (I wrote this above). Wanting an accurate retelling of someones work is not racist. If Tolkien wanted black elves he would have wrote them in, really is that simple.

It's a rather weak argument there are numerous things that cannot scientifically exist in the LOTR universe

You mean having black dwarves undeground without sunlight. Those types of things that can't exist.

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"Still can't answer my question. Why is that I wonder.

I love how you keep referring to Tolkien fans as stormfront as somehow you think it adds more weight to your aguement. It doesn't, just makes you look foolish."

You're all over the place so i don't even know what question you're referring to. There are Tolkien fans who aren't white supremacists & there are white supremacists who call themselves Tolkien. Please don't conflate those two things and pretend I'm the one doing it. It's disingenuous.

I dod read the post. I even stated that in my reply above. You obviously didn't read it. Again no real suprise there.

What he wrote was not racist, was not white supreamcist or any other ism (I wrote this above). Wanting an accurate retelling of someones work is not racist. If Tolkien wanted black elves he would have wrote them in, really is that simple.


Sure. Nothing racist at all about openly admitting your association with & sharing links to the most notorious white supremacist website on the internet while citing it as a good place to make these same racial arguments about LOTR

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You're all over the place so i don't even know what question you're referring to.

Then you obviously have difficulty reading as I have mentioned it multiple times. You also deflect by saying i am all over the place because you have no real answers. My position is clear and has been from the very beginning.

But for the hard of hearing in the class which means you by the way.

Ok he posted links. Big whoop. I haven't but you will tar me and anyone who disagrees with you with the same brush. I am not racist, I am not a white supremacist, I don't belong to any organisations nor do I speak for anyone else. And again for the don't know how many times. There is nothing racist about wanting Tolkiens work made the way he wrote it.

There are Tolkien fans who aren't white supremacists & there are white supremacists who call themselves Tolkien. Please don't conflate those two things and pretend I'm the one doing it. It's disingenuous.

I'm not confalting anything. You are the one calling people racist for not wanting black elves or dwarves because you don't have a counter arguement to prove your point. You like all others scream racism and it si only fictional except when it is a black fictional work then there skin colour matters. Always find that ammusing.

By giving black elves and dwarves is just tokenism. See the below question for clarity.

How does a person living underground and doesn't see sunlight have black skin. When you answer that correctly then you will realise how absurd it is to have black dwarves. Why does the 1 black Elf not have long hair like every single other Elf that has existed in LOTR, literally all of them except this one. Because Amazon don't care about Tolkien, they don't care about anything other than your money. They care about true diversity. If they could make Gandfalf a woman they would. This show will be dead on arrival.

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Then you obviously have difficulty reading as I have mentioned it multiple times. You also deflect by saying i am all over the place because you have no real answers. My position is clear and has been from the very beginning.

But for the hard of hearing in the class which means you by the way.


Badgering me about answering an apparently "very important" question that was placed somewhere in your bullshit salad & then deflecting with more bullshit salad when asked to clarify is what we call trolling.

"Ok he posted links. Big whoop."

"So he identified himself as a white supremacist who posts links to white supremacist websites where he likes to makes these same about black people in LOTR . Big whoop"

Glad to see you conceding where you stand on that. Also, about a dark skinned elves living in caves, I already answered that lame "scientific" argument which is ridiculous when even ignoring the fact that Tolkien dwarves, supernatural elves & wizards don't exist, there are far more scientifically impossible shenanigans that you're willing to overlook without a thought, right with the rest of us. i.e. It's a bad faith argument & a rather weak one arguably worse than when your lot was doing this same whining about why it wasn't "scientifically accurate" for there to be a black mermaid in the upcoming Little Mermaid film. This chat thread is jumbled mess & not really productive at this point so I'll let you have at it.

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Badgering me about answering an apparently "very important" question that was placed somewhere in your bullshit salad

That just shows you either haven't bothered reading anything written.

"So he identified himself as a white supremacist who posts links to white supremacist websites where he likes to makes these same about black people in LOTR . Big whoop"

Why is this in quotes? I didn't write this. So I concede nothing as that quote has zero to do with me. Strange why you would add that.

So is black panther so can we have white and asian africans. Why not throw some eskimos in that. Why not it is only fictional. We have a black queen of england so i guess we can now have white zulus in a zulu remake. You will disagree with this due to being a hypocrite.

The fact you keep repeating the same things which again doesn't make it true. You won't my question becausde you cannot answer it as it will go against everything you have said. You have quoted somthing I didn't write.

So that ends this discussion.

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It's a rather weak argument there are numerous things that cannot scientifically exist in the LOTR universe the stormfront crowd isn't concerned about. The link is screenshot of a regular moviechat poster & stormfront user outing himself & what is gripe with LOTR is really about. You probably agree with each other a lot. https://imgur.com/XcbaAE4

So you've found one user. One user. But if sokar could find a handful of black users who made the same complaints, then "a few anecdotal examples of contrarians wouldn't change anything & somehow validate the complaints from the stormfront crowd."

But one user linking to Stormfront is apparently enough to invalidate everyone who might say something similar to him. Yeah, that's not hypocritical in the slightest.

By the way - I can't really see any similarities between what he said, and what I have said. Complaining about the same thing, sure, but not remotely in the same manner. It's the same difference between someone voting against Obama because he was black, and voting against Obama because of economics. Complaining about the same guy, but hardly the same reasons.

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You keep going all around the world but have yet to explain how the casting issue has any meaningful impact beyond those with shared views of the white supremacist stormfront crowd.

I've explained that twice to you already, but you ignored it. Do a ctrl-F search for "immersive" on this page and you'll find both instances - there will be three hits in total, including this post.

Perhaps if I explained it to you as product placement, because it's essentially the same thing. Product placement is all fine and dandy if it's discreet, but when you notice product placement, it takes you out of the movie because the movie becomes about something else.

You and butthurt white supremacists throwing out words like "Agenda" "Forced down throat", "propaganda" & "agenda" isn't debunking anything.

I haven't merely "thrown out" such words, I have justified them. And your incessant referances to white supremacists has no value. I've never been on Stormfront or other such sites, so I don't know what sort of arguments are found there. You obviously have, quite frequently by the sound of it, seeing as how familiar you are with white supremacists.

Adapted works are always subject to artistic license with sometimes small & large changes. This was true with the Peter Jackson LOTR films & almost everything else. Essensially everyone, including these white supremacists complaining about black people now were fine with the changes then.

Then you have a short memory. Purists complained about the Jackson trilogy as well. Overall, though, that trilogy was pretty faithful to how Middle Earth looked in people's minds, and that really is the most essential thing: if it is to feel like Middle Earth, it needs to look like it. And the Jackson trilogy looked very much like they were inspired by Alan Lee's excellent illustrations. And small wonder, seeing as he was in the art department of those movies.

Of course, the Hobbit trilogy was universally panned by fans, because of all the liberties it took.

Making my position clear against white supremacist sentiment on this issue is "virtue signaling" according to you.

It wouldn't be, if we were talking about white supremacists. But you are the only one who insists on talking about dragging them into this discussion, and you also feel it relevant to point out that you're not a racist. Of course you are virtue signalling.

I don't have to "accuse" anyone as the ws stormfront racists that you agree with have already told on themselves.

That's right, you don't have to - and yet you do, even though you have no grounds to do so. So far this is 100% of what you've got: "you're a racist!" No rhyme, no reason. "I never said that!" Oh yes, you did. You just did in the quote above. You're being a jerk. I dare you to tackle my arguments on their merits, instead of looking for similarities, however superficial, to arguments made by white supremacists.

Here's a challenge for you: imagine white supremacists have said nothing about this series - no comment of any kind. How would you reply to what I have said then? Don't try to find anything to compare them with, surely you don't need third parties to make out what words mean?

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Númenor began with men from the Houses of Bëor, Haleth and Marach. We know what they looked like because Tolkien wrote it down.

Númenoreans didn't mingle with Middle-earth men (who were, by and large, descended from the same people anyway) even before they fell under Sauron's influence, and became downright tyrannical towards them afterwards. There is zero indication, anywhere in Tolkien's writings, that Númenor was some cosmopolitan melting pot.

The names of the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves were taken directly from Norse mythology, as was the concept of Dwarves to begin with.

So yeah, there's all that. But surely, anyone wanting respect for the man's work and objecting to the insertion of the unbridled parochialism of modern-day American politics into a timeless piece of art must be doing so out of "racism".

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Well said. I must however slightly object to your characterizing this is specifically modern day American politics. It is, of course; this country is eaten up with this woke nonsense right now, and we're all the worse for it. But it is not limited to us. Tolkien's own country is heavily infected with this rot as well, hence the BBC puts a black Achilles in one of its productions, and British broadcaster Channel 5 brought us a black Anne Boleyn. So we're not the only ones responsible for forced diversity.

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If I were willing to take you seriously, I could point out that in society with the kind of racial divisions that forbid intermarriage, plenty of sex and breeding happens within the races. And I could also point out that in large empires, immigration from happens, in the Roman Empire, a citizen who was born in Israel could find him posted to Britain during military service and then get a government job in Egypt, and end up having children by a wife who was originally from Gaul, and more by slaves from Germany and Nubia (Ethiopia). That's how racial mixing happens in vast multi-national empires.

But since you're defending the cause of white purity, I'm not, I'm just going to tell you to get the fuck out of the fandom. Your bullshit isn't tolerated here.

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That's all very well and good, but it's still not the way Tolkien wrote his story.

For the record, the only "purity" I have any actual interest in defending is that of fiction. I would be equally opposed to anyone who claimed to be making an adaptation of Amos Tutuola's works (the brilliance of which I'm sure I don't need to expand on, what with your most certainly being thoroughly familiar with them) while having a bunch of Scandinavian-looking extras running around in the background for no discernible reason other than hamfisted pandering.

I will admit to being curious, though... what the hell would "getting the fuck out of the fandom" even entail? Someone coming to my house and taking my Tolkien books away?

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Take your racist drivel somewhere else, or better yet, listen to the decent people and stop being racist.

Until then, I have nothing to say to you.

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The poor Otter kid has yet to realize that he’s not part of the fandom anymore. He’s on the outside, cast out, along with the other activists. As they try to defend a product that’ll be dead on arrival, the fandom points their fingers at them and laughs 😄

Most, if not all of the YouTube videos promoting the show have been ratio’d. The verdict is clear: the Tolkien fandom rejects Amazon’s Rings of Power.

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That's all very well and good, but it's still not the way Tolkien wrote his story.

The Numenoreans literally interacted and mixed with non-Numenoreans and Tolkien never used race or skin tone as a differentiation. Tolkien used the term "Middle-men" referring that they were far of cousins descended from the same ancestors from the 1st Age. There were Men of Light and Men of Darkness referring to their association with the Valar or allegiance to Melkor who may have corrupted them. Tolkien also wrote that some men not associated with light or darkness existed in the far off lands, but still no reference to their skin tone and no allusions to modern history that they would be the Africans, Semites, Asians or otherwise.



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Tolkien did make numerous mentions of skin colour. Nothing he dwelled on, and for some races there is no mention, but for example the Easterlings were "swarthy" or "sallow"; the Haradrim were dark skinned; the Rohirrim white (orcs call them "whiteskins"), etc.

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Yes but he didn't refer to them as not being Men or some OTHER race. Tolkien was not a Racialist.

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Yes but he didn't refer to them as not being Men or some OTHER race. Tolkien was not a Racialist.

No one has been saying or even hinting that they weren't races of men.

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The assholes whining about Black Elves and Dwarves are

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No, they're not. Besides, elves and dwarves are not among the races of men.

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Stay in denial, SIMP

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Talk about projection. You're the one who has completely shut his ears to anything that could possibly challenge his prejudices.

I called you on your bullshit. You had no comeback except a meaningless insult.

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Agreed. Diversity is our downfall as shown by the Roman Empire and Alexander the Great times. Goes the same with the Second Age where they went full diversity and inclusion that by the time the Third Age arrived, it was mostly all gone.

This is why they should've introduced Dark Elves, a distant cousins of the Elves. Drows as some call it.

The Vanyar, the Noldor, and those of the Teleri who reached Valinor are called the Calaquendi (Elves of Light) because they saw the light of the Two Trees of Valinor. In Quenya, the language of the Noldor in Valinor, all other Elves were called the Moriquendi (Elves of Darkness) in recognition of the fact that they did not see (and did not desire) the Light of Valinor, but later the Sindar were counted among neither of these groups. Instead, Moriquendi was used for all other Elves except Noldor, Vanyar, and Sindar. The Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey notes that the Sundering allowed Tolkien to explain the existence of Norse mythology's Dökkálfar and Ljósálfar, Light and Dark Elves. The Light Elves lived in Alfheim ("Elfhome") and correspond to his Calaquendi. The Dark Elves, who lived underground in Svartalfheim ("Black Elfhome"), Tolkien "rehabilitates" as his Moriquendi.

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Only that they were not dark skinned ...

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I bet that you are one of the imbeciles that cheer black dwarfs in Tolkien but whine about a latina "not dark enough" playing America Chavez in Dr Strange ...

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Did you win that bet yet?

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What a load of crap. You are making stuff up.

Tolkien mentioned that Harfoot hobbits had browner skin than the others. Not that they were black.

You are trolling or total woke. Either way, full of crap.

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She is virtue signaling and pissing on perceived enemies.

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Yeah see what you mean.

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Any REAL fan would know that the 3rd age was far more diverse.
Without the unbeatable power of Numenor to stand on their way there were plenty of incursions from the East and the South.

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Oh you silly silly person! Localized incursions around the Gondorian coast and thinly populated areas don't make for massive shifts in populations, not compared to the kind of moving around you get in a vast nation that provides a network of roads, the rule of law, and cultural continuity, the kind that vanished in Europe when the western half of the Roman empire fell... and the Empire that once sent its citizens from Jerusalem to Hadrian's Wall became a scatter of warring tribes where everyone was sure that if they crossed the next hill they'd be cannibalized by the next tribe over. In the 2nd age, a person could travel from Harad to Arnor along Numenorean roads and pass through civilization most of the way, by the 3rd age it took Boromir months, a lot of fighting, and hacking through wilderness to get from Minas Tirith to Rivendell, and he thought he was the first person to make the trip in centuries.

Of course the REAL fans understand a bit about history, both of reality and of Middle-Earth, and the REAL fans are decent people and not the sort of tiny-dicked asshole who goes around complaining about diversity.

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not compared to the kind of moving around you get in a vast nation that provides a network of roads, the rule of law, and cultural continuity, the kind that vanished in Europe when the western half of the Roman empire fell...

You've got that backwards. The fall of the Western Roman Empire did not cause that kind of moving around to vanish - if anything, the other way around: massive migration caused the Roman Empire to vanish. Well, a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg proposition, but there certainly wasn't more migration when the Roman Empire was stable. The period following the fall of the Western Roman Empire is called the Migration period.

Of course the REAL fans understand a bit about history, both of reality and of Middle-Earth, and the REAL fans are decent people and not the sort of tiny-dicked asshole who goes around complaining about diversity.

Don't accuse others of being assholes while acting like one.

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Don't call others assholes, when you're whining about diversity! That automatically makes you the biggest asshole in any room, except for possibly the other racist needledicks who can't stand the sight of diversity.

Now fuck off, you aren't worth the time it would take to debate you.

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DAMN!🧨

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Don't call others assholes, when you're whining about diversity!

Being an asshole has nothing to do with personal opinions, but how you treat other people. It says a lot about you when I'm having to defend papamihel from hypocritical ad hominem attacks. But here, all he did was disagree with you, and wasn't even rude about it. And immediately you start with the name calling. That makes you the asshole, sunshine.

Now fuck off, you aren't worth the time it would take to debate you.

And yet you replied.

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There were also more dwarves than at the end of the 3rd Age, they had more cities and more power, and more of the "Seven Tribes" were around.

But they were seven distinct tribes - there was little to no intermingling between them until the third age, which is precisely why you have fewer clans later on. This means that the third age is more, not less, diverse. That's what diversity does: it blends different groups, making them one. If the diversity in the series is simply that there are plenty of different homogenous groups existing in the same world, then sure - no one will complain about that. But if you have diversity within groups, then this is definitely not something we should be seeing more of in an earlier age.

And the dwarves aren't Caucasian - none of them are. They happen to have fair skin, but that doesn't make them "white", much less Caucasian - there is no relation to white men. They are their own race who happen to resemble Caucasian men, because Tolkien created them mostly from Norse mythology. Why people should insist that dwarves should happen to have the same ethnic variations as humans is pretty odd, quite frankly.


You're not real fans, you know shit about Prof. Tolkien, or what he believed in or the messages he was trying to put across.

Who are you to judge?

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