Who trained Johnny after he left Cobra Kai? - Cobra Kai (2018) Discussion

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

This series kind of made it seem as if learning karate was like riding a bike. I guess Johnny just knows it forever.

reply

[–] Champ0425 (143) 7 years ago

When he first kicked one of those punks, Johnny acted like it hurt. Like he hadn't done it in a while. I found that funny.

reply

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

I took that as more of a "I just realized I'm getting old" moment .

reply

[–] AP (5288) 6 years ago

I think he still remembered the moves, but he hadn't done them in a while, which resulted in a pulled groin.

reply

[–] SammyJackson (24) 6 years ago

[deleted]

[–] fountainhead (323) 6 years ago

One thing I didn't consider is that in 1984, at the age of 17, Johnny was already a real black belt (unlike Daniel's stolen black belt), right? Daniel had a few months' training, whereas we can estimate that Johnny has been training for five or six years. So I guess, at that point in 1984, all the training he was getting from Kreese was more like practice/review and he already had all the knowledge he needed to train his own students in 2018.

reply

[–] SammyJackson (24) 6 years ago

[deleted]

[–] kenburke (2369) 6 years ago

That's the only complaint I have with the series - the idea that learning karate is a walk in the park. I have studied taekwondo for over 17 years and I can assure everyone that no one can be a five week wonder boy, like Daniel-san.

reply

[–] wearsalan (5554) 6 years ago

He wasn't a five week wonder boy. Miyagi trained enough to win a competition.

reply

[–] strntz (12225) 6 years ago

Not sure, but I think kenburke as referring to Daniel's very short training schedule between the time Miyagi confronted Kreese at his dojo and the tournament. Not sure if it was 5 weeks but even three months wouldn't have been enough for Daniel to beat the previous year's winner (Johnny). I took some martial arts in the service but I was never much good, even after 6 months.

reply

[–] wearsalan (5554) 6 years ago

But you can't compare two people who had two different instructors.
Also, between the confrontation at the dojo and the competition there was roughly 7 weeks. Your average student trains for one to two hours twice a week (so that's 2 - 4 hours per week). Daniel trained everyday for up to 10 hours for most of those seven weeks. lets say he did that for six of the seven days. That's 60 hours a week times seven. That's a total of 420 hours. It would take a student training as your average student does, anywhere from 105 weeks (2 years) up to 210 weeks (4 years) to have a similar amount of training time.
Miyagi also cut out all the guff and simply trained blocking through muscle memory so that Daniel didn't really need to practice as such as it became second nature. All he then needed was fast hand movement for punching.
I've seen people with only two months training beat black belts in these type of competitions simply because their timing was spot on. As soon as their opponent moved they tagged them.
Simplicity itself in fact.

reply

[–] strntz (12225) 6 years ago

Daniel trained everyday for up to 10 hours for most of those seven weeks.

Seeing that he also attended school and had to do at least some homework, he would have had to stay up half the night to get in 10 hours of practice, assuming he wouldn't collapse from exhaustion for practicing for 10(!) hours every day.

If Karate is like any other repetitious learned skill, total hours isn't the final factor. When I taught bass guitar, five lessons of half an hour each plus 2.5 hours at home practicing would get most students to a certain point. I had students who practiced ten times longer than others and were hardly more advanced as those who practiced a lesser amount daily (but did practice as instructed). I think at some point no more learning takes place until a rest interval. The student might even become sloppy and learn bad habits.

But other than that, it would take an extraordinary student to become proficient enough in 7 weeks to defeat a reigning champion, one who didn't lose even one point in competition the previous year.

reply

[–] wearsalan (5554) 6 years ago

Take in to consideration that Johnny was blinded by anger. There was also the fact that as Daniel progressed through the competition he continuously beat Johnny's friends and grew in confidence. Kreese himself was worried enough to tell bobby to take Daniel out of commission. That worry would have filtered to Johnny himself (after all, if your instructor feels you could lose, why would you believe you would win).
Maybe it would have taken an extraordinary student. Maybe that's the point here. Miyagi obviously sees something in Daniel. People are getting too wrapped up in how it was possible for Daniel to win. As I said earlier, I've seen this in real life, so it isn't exactly unique or unbelievable to me.

reply

[–] kenburke (2369) 6 years ago

It would have been believable if Daniel-san had trained 5 years, 5 months, and 5 weeks. 5 weeks and nothing else? Forget it!!!

reply

[–] kenburke (2369) 6 years ago

"Good" can mean many things. If you accomplished the goals you set for yourself, you are good.

reply

[–] avortac4 (3743) 5 years ago

" I have studied taekwondo for over 17 years and I can assure everyone that no one can be a five week wonder boy, like Daniel-san."

I have learned Tae Kwon Do a bit, and Karate also a few separate occasions each, and I can assure you - you CAN learn the basic moves, especially if you train at home between lessons, etc.

Once you know how to do a few basic moves, all you need is experience, which comes from sparring and practicing.

'Studying' isn't enough, you know, it's like saying you have studied swimming for 17 years and can assure no one can learn to swim quickly, when all you have done is read about swimming from books and the internet.

Bruce Lee was otherplanetary in his skill and ability long before he had 'studied' Kung Fu (or should it be spelled 'Gong Fu'?) for 17 years. So maybe you are just a slow learner.. (:

(Just kidding!)

I know that to truly master 'martial art' of any kind, especially something that goes beyond Jeet Kune Do and eventually is just 'human movement that adapts to anything automatically when you want it to', takes a lot of dedication, and usually a long time.

However, this is a TV show, AND here's a possible explanation to ponder:

- Incarnational learning throughout ages

Mozart was able to play superbly as a 4-year old, and was able to also compose very good music at a very young age. He didn't learn how to play all those 4 years and thus became a master. He already KNEW how to play, from years and years of practice from previous incarnations.

Think about all the violin prodigies - think how skilled Bruce Lee will be when he incarnates again (if he hasn't already) - that 'kid' will be really good at martial arts at a very young age, just like Mozart was about pianoplaying and music. Any teacher that taps into that and utilizes his already existing, deep understanding of martial arts, would be able to very quickly make him into a 'martial arts superstar', because that's what he already inwardly is.

reply

[–] avortac4 (3743) 5 years ago

At least, this is my explanation of 'prodigies', so even Twosetviolin is wrong, when they say 'Geniuses are not born, they are made'. Nikola Tesla was clearly a genius that was 'born', not 'made' - but you have to practice to CULTIVATE your genius to a properly expressible (is this a word?) level.

If Bruce Lee incarnates to a rich violin family, it's possible that his martial arts prowess will never be expressed in that particular incarnation - and whoever good or bad he (or she) might become with violin, the martial arts skills won't be there even if he/she needs them, because of lack of practice that would bring it out and cultivate it, and make it accessible.

So you can be a genius in something, but if you don't practice it, you won't be able to bring it out into anything detectable. It's still inside of you, and maybe gets cultivated in next incarnation, but you can't express it.

If Mozart never saw pianos or any musical instruments until he was 20, he couldn't suddenly play like an angel - he would need at least some practice to 'rekindle' that atrophied genius.

So your 17 years of Tae Kwon Do prove absolutely nothing.

reply

[–] beauq81 (1086) 7 years ago

Chuck Norris

reply

[–] kenburke (2369) 6 years ago

Ashida Kim!!!

reply

[–] Saenzwa9 (484) 6 years ago

I am sure he easily found another sensei. I wonder how long he continued his training though? It seems he's been a burned out drunk for a long time before starting up Cobra Kai again.

reply

[–] PaladinNJ (21510) 6 years ago

All the Cobra Kais probably moved on to other Senseis when Kreese lost the dojo. The story didn't follow Johnny's life in the film series after the first movie.

reply

[–] CoachGainz (453) 6 years ago

I suppose it's all a work of fiction so it doesn't really matter lol.

However, if we dive into this fictional world. We will see that Kreese was one of the best(If not the best) in the army during Nam and Johnny was an extraordinary student with unrelenting passion for the sport. Those 2 things alone a great instructor(Ethics aside) along with a great student can for sure produce extraordinary results.

We have to also remember that Johnny was a 2 time valley champ 3 if it weren't for Miyagi. A 3 time valley champ in a densely populated part of the country is a pretty big deal. Also, how much better was he than the typical? I have to assume that his closest competition were the other Cobra Kai. And if he was the best for 3 years straight I'm going to take it he was far superior than most. Maybe for him these moves have become 2nd nature and can be called upon when needed.

I guess I look at it like high school wrestling. Sure it takes years of practice and ton of other factors to become any good. But I'm going to assume that a guy who was 3 time state champ in high school( Possibly Nation Champ in Johnny's case and remember there are no weight classes in Karate) could pick it up 30 years latter with success. He also is probably going to be a much better instructor than the norm.

reply

[–] newguy33 (355) 6 years ago

I guess there are many karate dojos in California.

reply

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Karate, the situation and this type of events are not down to pure math, hours or even completely about training per se. (Though Daniel should've done a lot of sparring to prepare)

All variables are alive and in constant motion - there's the audience, the noise, the bright lights, judges, nervousness, and all the psychological factors that come with everything, that may confuse an unprepared mind.

If someone is 'more trained', but can't keep his mind focused, he can lose to a 'less trained' individual, that can keep his own mind focused.

If you don't train internally at all, you are psychologically vulnerable in a new and chaotic situation. If you do, you are better-equipped, even if your body is weak and scrawny.

Look and compare Johnny's focus in the last fight - he seems unfocused, chaotic, and his mind seems to wander - he hesitates, he doesn't move decisively and intuitively, or even organically. He moves robotically and is clearly unsure what to do, with a cluttered mind that can't stay in the moment.

Then contrast it to Daniel's mind, which is completely focused, waiting for Johnny to do something so he can react to it. Just focus on 'what kind of mind does each combatant have', and you can start to see clearly what I am talking about.

Daniel is in the moment, Johnny isn't. By the time Johnny makes a decision, Danny has already seen what's happening and reacted quickly - so before Johnny can get his head brought back to the moment and attempts to do something, it's already too late.

Focused mind can win against unfocused mind, even if every mathematical statistic and probability says otherwise. Karate is not math, and it's not about muscle. It's the inner strength and focus of the mind, and it's about the martial spirit, or as the Rocky IV song tells us, 'it's the passion, that kills'.

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Providing Johnny kept training it wouldn't have mattered if he had a sen sai or not. He was already a black belt anyway. He may have lost interest in his later years though as his life declined.

reply

[–] newguy33 (355) 6 years ago

Without sparring partners his training wouldn't worth too much.

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Probably not. But that makes the film as well. He is out of shape and practice and only kicks those kids arses because they aren't used to having someone fight back.

reply