Utterly ridiculous. If you love diversity and want to give black actors a chance, then why not adapt a story with actual black characters? Or better yet, make up a whole new story yourself. Why are they so afraid to do that instead?
shareAdmittedly it would have been more accurate to portray him as Romani (i.e. a Gypsy). That being said, who really cares?
share"That being said, who really cares?"
I always find that to be such a lame argument. I as a potential viewer care. And I care more about historical accuracy than race pandering.
Its been happening in various stage productions for real. Why should this even be an issue?
Its 2019 dude...wake up and move on.
So race pandering happens in the theater as well. What's your point?
The story takes place in the early 19th century. Pay attention...dude...
I love the "It's (insert year)" argument.
It's like knowing what year it is, is a sign of genius that can't be denied.
"You know what year it is, aren't you clever."
I bet it would be a huge issue if they cast a white person in a non white role though, huh?
share"I care more about historical accuracy than race pandering."
That's good to know. Many Black people were living in France during the French Revolution and fought in it.
Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges was a famous composer and Queen Marie Antoinette attended his concerts. During the French Revolution, he was a colonel of the Légion St.-Georges, the first all-black regiment in Europe. He fought on the side of the Republic.
Alexandre Dumas, the author of the Three Musketeers was a black Frenchman.
Thomas-Alexandre Dumas Davy de la Pailleterie was his father, a general who fought during the French Revolution and later in Russia. He also served under Napolean.
Abram Petrovich Gannibal was a black citizen in Russia, but studied in France. He was a military engineer, general, and nobleman. He was also the great-grandfather of Alexander Pushkin, the Russian(and black) father of modern Russian literature. Yes, there were black people in Russia too!
Louise Marie-Thérèse (1664–1732) aka the black nun of Moret. Many thought she was the daughter of the Queen of France and she is mentioned in many memoirs.
Please open a history book now and then and educate yourself before making ignorant comments about race pandering.
Haha, you're the moron who thinks the Ancient Egyptians were black! Freaking idiot!
One, this story takes place AFTER Napoleon's defeat, NOT during the French Revolution. FAIL!
Two, no, not MANY black people were living in France at that time. The ones you mentioned were pretty much the only ones who were free with any kind of standing in society. Gannibal doesn't count. Dumas' grandmother was black and he looked more like a white person himself. He was also aristocratic, like Joseph Bologne, which sets them apart from any other black person. We don't even have enough info on the nun. But did you notice none of them were police detectives???
Three, Javert was a freaking half-gypsy in the book! I don't care if there might've two or three black people in France! It's simply not correct! And the guy tries to hide his background in the book, how the heck can he hide being black? It makes no sense and ruins the character.
Now please borrow Les Misérables from the library and actually read it, you ignoramus.
And no, the Ancient Egyptians were NOT black.
Many more blacks in France than the zero that you stupidly believe. The black population was large enough in 1777 that a law called Police des Noirs was passed to regulate entry which largely went unenforced.
During the 1700s, blacks contributed greatly to France. Blacks fought for France in the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars. Julien Raimond, a Haitian, founded the Black Legions and defended Paris from attacks of Prussians and Austrians in 1792. Joseph "Hercule" Damingue and his "Battalion of Black Pioneers" fought with Napoleon in his Italian and Egyptian Campaigns.
You stupidly don't know that black people have different skin tones.
Pushkin was a proud black man. In ‘Eugene Onegin’, he wrote:
It’s time to drop astern the shape
of the dull shores of my disfavour,
and there, beneath your noonday sky,
my Africa, where waves break high,
to mourn for Russia’s gloomy savour,
land where I learned to love and weep,
land where my heart is buried deep.
Your belief that orange people exist is inane. Legitimate Egyptologists describe the Ancient Egyptians as Afro-Asiatic.
Obviously, you care more about spreading racism than historical accuracy. A white supremacist such as yourself has no credibility re: black history.
"Many more blacks in France than the zero that you stupidly believe."
See, you once again prove what a moron you are. I never once said there were no black people in France, I said it's not historically correct that Javert is a black man.
"During the 1700s, blacks contributed greatly to France."
We're not talking about the French Revolution, you freak. We're talking about daily life in France in the early 1800's!
"You stupidly don't know that black people have different skin tones."
You're too stupid to get my point. Dumas was more white than black, he had no problem passing as a white man in French society. The actor playing Javert is pitch black!
Pushkin is not French! Next!
"Your belief that orange people exist is inane."
You are officially the biggest moron in the world. I never claimed orange people exist, you freaking retard.
"Legitimate Egyptologists describe the Ancient Egyptians as Afro-Asiatic."
Stop lying.
The fact that you use a term like "black history" makes YOU the racist, not me.
Now go away and stop making a fool of yourself!
Black history lessons from Archie Bunker! LOL!
Continue to be threatened by a fictitious black character in a work of fiction, racist loser.
Wow, what a comeback! You're an embarrassment to your race and the human race in general. Moronic, racist fool.
shareArchie Bunker is projecting! Obviously, you're too stupid to remember that you created the racist subject.
shareNo, I commented on a racial issue in a tv show. Again proof of what a moron you are.
shareYour comment was based on ignorance of French history.
shareSays the person who apparently thinks the French Revolution took pace in the 19th century.
Nope, your comment was based on your inability to read. Not once did I say there were no black people in France.
Backtracking again, Archie? Obviously, you're obsessed with a "Black Javret?" based on your ignorance re: black Frenchmen.
sharePlease point out where I said there were no black people in France at the time.
It's obvious why a black Javert is stupid. He very clearly isn't black in the book.
You just keep proving my point that you're a moron.
You care more about spreading white supremacy than historical accuracy or you wouldn't have been arguing about the existence of orange people.
The FICTION never mentions race, Archie Bunker. How come the change in hair color of the female characters doesn't concern you?
You just love making up stuff, don't you? Did you get that information from your Dr. Hawass???😂
shareYour racist Hawass?
reference:
"Javert était né dans une prison d'une tireuse de cartes dont le mari était aux galères. En grandissant, il pensa qu'il était en dehors de la société et désespéra d'y rentrer jamais. Il remarqua que la société maintient irrémissiblement en dehors d'elle deux classes d'hommes, ceux qui l'attaquent et ceux qui la gardent; il n'avait le choix qu'entre ces deux classes; en même temps il se sentait je ne sais quel fond de rigidité, de régularité et de probité, compliqué d'une inexprimable haine pour cette race de bohèmes dont il était. Il entra dans la police."
And where exactly does your reference say Javert was a black man???
It's so incredibly hilarious that you keep denying that YOU used Hawass as a (main) source, not me.
"And where exactly does your reference say Javert was a black man???"
You just made my point! Javert can be played by anyone since race nor ethnicity is mentioned. So stop your childish bellyaching!
You actually think that's the only description of Javert in the entire book??? The illustrations actually portray him as a white man.
You act like being a black man in that era would've been the same as being a white man! No, it's EXTREMELY improbable for Javert to have been black. The actor isn't even bi-racial. You simply do not understand French society at the time or the character if you think a man in his position could've been anything else but white. How could he even have gone undercover if he was one of only a few black men in France???
Now stop making a fool of yourself, you understand nothing about this subject.
And now the TV producers portray him as a black man. The writer clearly didn't specify race. Obviously, a racist like yourself would only believe a black man can have a low position in society.
That description is the most important in the book re: Javret, Archie Bunker. Obviously, you're too stupid to know the reason.
As you continue to demonstrate, stupid can't be fixed.
Take your racism and mythological orange people et mettez-les où le soleil ne brille jamais!
Okay, so I guess discrimination and slavery against black people never existed, huh? Get real, 19th century France wasn't some politically correct, multi-cultural paradise.
French society at the time was 99.9% white, why would he need to specify he or any other character was white??? If he were something else than white he would've specified, because it's extremely unlikely a black man would have achieved a position like Javert and be able to go through life without any comment on his skin colour. Get this through your stupid skull!
You can't even understand English, let alone French. Otherwise you would've understood the character could never be black.
Yeah, keep making up racism where there's none...Jussie.
Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges was a famous composer and Queen Marie Antoinette attended his concerts. During the French Revolution, he was a colonel of the Légion St.-Georges, the first all-black regiment in Europe. He fought on the side of the Republic.
Alexandre Dumas, the author of the Three Musketeers was a black Frenchman.
Thomas-Alexandre Dumas Davy de la Pailleterie was his father, a general who fought during the French Revolution and later in Russia. He also served under Napolean.
Abram Petrovich Gannibal was a black citizen in Russia, but studied in France. He was a military engineer, general, and nobleman. He was also the great-grandfather of Alexander Pushkin, the Russian(and black) father of modern Russian literature. Yes, there were black people in Russia too!
Louise Marie-Thérèse (1664–1732) aka the black nun of Moret. Many thought she was the daughter of the Queen of France and she is mentioned in many memoirs.
Please open a history book now and then and educate yourself before making ignorant comments about race pandering.
Stop repeating yourself and read back what I said about those people. I never said there were no black people in France. Javert is not black and could not be black. You do not understand French society at the time. If Javert already had trouble being part of society as a son of criminals, how succesful do you think a pitch black son of criminals would be? You are a racist fool, Jussie. Go to a library and read Les Misèrables.
sharePushkin was a father of modern Russian language, not so much modern Russian literature. Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky are much more suited for that role. Or Bulgakov for that matter.
Pushkin was proud of his ancestors and his roots, that's a fact. Although he always referred to them in an ironic manner: 'My mother's granddad was a negro, son of some important local strongman etc.' Never in his books or personal letters he presented himself as 'black', let alone 'proud black man' (which is a typical modern PC construct). The reasons are obvious: He considered himself Russian and looked like one. Yes, there are some Russians with curly black hair too.
"Russian romantic writer whom most Russians consider their greatest poet and the founder of modern Russian literature.
Before the seventeenth century, Russian literature consisted mainly of religious hagiographies and chronicles written in the language of the Russian Orthodox Church, Old Church Slavonic. For some poets and dramatists writing prior to Pushkin—notably the Russian scientist Mikhail Vasilyevich Lomonosov (1711-1765) and Gavriil Derzhavin (1743-1816)—there was no commonly accepted literary language. By synthesizing European literary traditions with Russian folklore, Pushkin created not only the basis for the modern Russian vernacular, but also a style of storytelling—mixing drama, romance, and [[satire]. This style greatly influenced later Russian writers and has been associated with Russian literature ever since."
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Alexander_Pushkin
https://russiapedia.rt.com/prominent-russians/literature/aleksandr-pushkin/
Tolstoy, Dostoevsky and Bulgakov were influenced by Pushkin.
He incorporated his black ancestry into some of his works and was a bit controversial because of his politics. He was writing about his great-grandfather at the time of his death called ""Blackamoor of Peter the Great,".
Members of nobility were brought up within French culture too which explains why he was fluent in French.
You'd be surprised by how many black and mixed-race persons have no black features. That doesn't change their heritage.
https://madamenoire.com/626219/gabrielle-reece-fitness/
There is Russian literature and then there is modern Russian literature. Modern Russian literature is everything that was written since the late 19th century, long after Pushkin's death. It uses the language that was shaped by Pushkin, otherwise, it's different. You can call Pushkin the founding father of Russian literature, not so much modern literature. If that was the case Boyan, Cyril and Methodius or Lomonosov could also apply for the title.
Once again: This doesn't change the fact Pushkin didn't consider himself to be black. Neither did everyone around him (and not because of some political correctness non existent at that era). Never in his life, he was referring to himself as a 'proud black man'. He was a slave owner for all that matters. He considered himself Russian, looked like one and most importantly - behaved like one.
It's only in America black people speak with a specific accent to underline their 'ethnical background' or consider themselves black while having just one black parent. Black people in Europe don't do that albeit having more rights for such behavior (sure, they're separated from Africa by just 1-2 generations).
Not me:
"Aleksandr Pushkin is considered Russia's greatest poet and the founder of modern Russian literature."
https://russiapedia.rt.com/prominent-russians/literature/aleksandr-pushkin/
"Russian poet, novelist, dramatist, and short-story writer; he has often been considered his country’s greatest poet and the founder of modern Russian literature."
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Aleksandr-Sergeyevich-Pushkin
Black and Russian aren't mutually exclusive. Pushkin was very proud of his own heritage, his ancestor and his ancestor's accomplishments which explains why he was writing a book about him.
You can't be American. Black dialect - not accent! In America there are many dialects: Jewish, Italian, Puerto Rican, WASP(several), etc. regional (state, city, even county), socio-economic, age, etc. And many people mix several dialects.
An American murderer made a phone call and a linguist working with the police was able to identify his race, ethnicity, place of birth, his present region, his socio-economic status as a child and adult, his age, and his education.
You're underestimating racism in America. I assume you never heard of the one drop rule?
"... a Louisiana woman was denied her request to be classified as white on her birth certificate because of a black ancestor four generations back. A Louisiana law, repealed in 1983, assigned residents as “colored” if one thirty-second of their ancestry included African descent.
... social psychologist Arnold Ho suggests that the one-drop rule remains the bedrock of American attitudes toward the children of black-white couples. Ho and two other researchers interviewed 200 U.S.-born black subjects and 200 U.S.-born whites on how they would classify mixed-race children.
“I think the main takeaway from our work is that both blacks and whites show a tendency to categorize and think about black-white multiracials as more black than white,” Ho told the Banner."
Oh my. Your grand-grandfather is directly related to you. But - unless there's some weird incestual history in your family - he is not your father. Pushkin is a father of modern Russian language, he is one of the founding fathers of Russian literature as it is. He is not the father of modern (let alone contemporary) Russian literature no matter what Britannica says. Britannica considers such distinctions to be of minor importance - that's its problems, not Pushkin's.
Again. On many occasions, Pushkin referred to himself as a proud Russian. Never did he refer to himself as African or black. None of his friends or enemies did such a thing as well. Never did he try to hide his ancestry. He didn't look African so using him to prove your point about 'black Javert' (played by an unmistakably black man) is nonsense.
moviechat troll vs. Russian scholars, encyclopedias, biographies, Russians themselves, descendants
You lose troll!
Every source says the same about Pushkin being the father of MODERN Russian literature and being proud of his black heritage.
His pride of his Pushkin ancestors who were listed in the pedigree book of Ivan the Terrible which he wrote about in "My Genealogy" in 1830 as well as his African heritage which he closely identified since he resembled his great-grandfather. Pushkin was darker than other Russians, had frizzy hair, and black features which he inherited unlike his siblings.
He expresses his pride in being black as well as his accomplished and distinguished great-grandfather in many of his writings.
You're delusional if you believe he looked Russian. His own self portraits, photo(not painting) and his own mother repeatedly refer to his strong black features.
Pushkin's favorite gift which adorned his work desk:
http://atlantablackstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/PUSHKINS-INKWELL.jpg
"Sometimes he used his African heritage to position himself as a Byronic outsider hero, as when speaking of “my Africa”, in Onegin, as if he’d been there. He called American slaves “my brothers” while owning Russian slaves of his own and insisting – as Nabokov’s translation of his 1830 poem My Genealogy has it – Gannibal was: “The emperor’s bosom friend, not a slave.” At other times, he reproduced stereotypes of the day, as when he pictures Ibrahim with “jealously [beginning] to seethe in his African blood” – a trope that society gossips applied to Pushkin himself after his tragic duel."
Disrespect him in Russia and you'll get your butt kicked since they love and respect him. His descendant said it's sacrilegious.
Black people lived in Paris therefore a black Javert is realistic. Think of him as a French Bass Reeves.
I've read a few biographies about Pushkin and French history. Stupid can be fixed if only you'd get a library card and use it.
Are you black by any chance?
shareIrrelevant. My point is to learn history before making assumptions. BTW, history isn't limited to blacks since people on this site have made incredibly dumb comments about Muslims, Native-Americans, Hispanics, women, communists, the Vietnam War, Jews, Iraq War, political parties, economic systems, etc. I always say the same thing. Read a history book.
shareJavert never hid his background, he freely admitted his father was a criminal, his mother a whore, and he was born in prison. He felt absolute loyalty to the law was the only way he could avoid a life of crime and did so.
shareThat's not what I mean. I mean that he denies being part of the race his parents come from and pretends to be the opposite of them. He could never do that as a black man. He could certainly never go undercover.
shareNo he doesn't. You obviously don't understand the story.
It's also irrelevant since you also complained about a black girl costarring in another TV show that takes place in the present. You just don't want to see black people on TV because you're a racist and white supremacist.
It's most definitely what the Javert character is about. You know nothing about the story or the character as you've shown again and again.
I also complained about the European actors in Gods of Egypt, so you can just go and fnck yourself, thank you very much.
You are a disgusting racist who makes up racism where there's none and clearly only wants to see black people on tv.
"I mean that he denies being part of the race his parents come from and pretends to be the opposite of them."
Not in the book, dullard.
Your reading comprehension is nonexistent. I suggest you read only Dr. Seuss.
Yes, he does imbecile. He rejects his heritage, he feels he's superior to that. Stop talking about things you know nothing about. Which is pretty much everything.
shareThat paragraph doesn't say that. You're stupid. The show reiterates that paragraph. You're obviously not watching the show. You just want to make racist comments on this site.
shareHaha, as if the book consists only of that paragraph, you freaking moron! Multiple times in the book he professes his disgust for "les misèrables" and how he's superior to them. Even your quote mentions Javert's hatred of his parent's "race" and how he has chosen not to be part of the class that "attacks society"
Of course I don't watch the show, it's bullshit.
A black Javert ridiculous?!!?!? How dare u be so racist and unwoke!!!! In my pretentious opinion everyone in this movie should have been more diverse. How dare the producers even put one white person in this film. Its 2019 people get woke!!!!
shareNobody complains about this:
In the book Fantine has blond hair (so she can sell it for a high price), and Cosette brown (to avert the trope that all pure-hearted heroines have blond hair).
Or the British accents.
BTW, France has always been diverse. Most people don't know history so they speak out of ignorance. One third of the French have at least one grandparent born in a foreign country. I noticed many Spanish, Italian, or other foreign names of many French actors when I watched French films as a young child. Historically, "les francais de souce" are much smaller in number than most people believe.
France really got ghetto lately. I didn't feel safe at all when I was in Paristan back in 2015 and i hear it got even worse since. America might be a shithole in a lot of ways but at least you can carry and protect yourself with a firearm
shareOf course, you didn't feel safe because you're afraid of anyone who isn't white. You just proved my point that you don't want a black Javert because you're a racist.
shareIt’s the far left BBC, just about every European historical drama made by them has an unrealistically high percentage of black people in them now.
shareYou do know during that time there were black people living in France and in other European countries, right? BBC shouldn't present white-only productions because a few of their viewers are ignorant of history, racists or white supremacists.
shareIt’s matt Calvert
shareAnyone see Hamilton The Musical?
shareI'm inclined to dismiss the OP's concern. Keelai made a valid counterpoint; Les Mis has always played with the hair color of Cosette/Fantine. That's just editorial discretion. I'm really enjoying this production. Black Javert is fine.
Hamilton, OTOH, gets it completely wrong:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/11/opinion/what-hamilton-forgets-about-alexander-hamilton.html
Do you truly not understand the difference between changing someone's hair color and changing someone's race??? A different hair color usually has no implications for the character. A black Javert is not "fine", it makes no sense in early 19th century France.
shareI sincerely do not understand the difference between changing someone's hair color and changing someone's race. Hair color is an element of race.
Black Hamilton is a good example of how tinkering with race can hurt a story. Black Javert, not so much.
That's very, very silly of you, if you don't understand the difference. Perhaps it helps if I tell you black people aren't exactly native to France...
"Hair color is an element of race."
Now you're being silly again. Changing Cosette or Fantine's hair color does not change their race or even their ethnicity. The white race has many different hair colors.
Hamilton is a satirical stage musical, how does the race of the actor ruin the story? It doesn't even try to be believable and realistic.
Just to advocate... curious if the French characters are all portrayed by French actors. If not, then every mismatch deserves the same scrutiny.
shareThe character being a different race is not the same as the actors being a different nationality, especially in a English-language production. I'm pretty sure the characters are still supposed to be French, I can't imagine that Javert is still supposed to be white.
shareWell thats what suspension of disbelief is for.
Glenn Close has played two (at least) male characters in movies. Still looks like Glenn Close.
As for visual appearance, most aliens in movies are clearly portrayed by humans in costume/makeup.
Diversity casting only gets picked on due to reactionary attitudes toward those social issues, while far more extreme examples remain invisible.
The alien thing is a big deal, honestly. Theres enough biodiversity just here on Earth to demonstrate that intelligent aliens would probably not resemble us.
Really, imagining a different skin color for just one character is suspension of disbelief??? This is not the theater, there has to be a bigger sense of realism and it has to be consistent.
There are males who look a lot like women, but even casting a woman in a male role is a gimmick you can't pull off too many times.
There's a political agenda behind "diversity casting", that's why it gets "picked on". I want a believable and accurate (not even 100% precise) rendition of a story, I'm not a child who needs to be taught in unsubtle ways that "black people are people too".
You know what, be original and create a brand new character who happens to be black and who will make an impression on generations to come just like Javert. I'll encourage and applaud it.
"Really, imagining a different skin color for just one character is suspension of disbelief???"
Suspension of disbelief is not imagining or pretending. Its just knowing the artifice involved and focusing on the craft. I've always felt "suspension" was a poor word choice. Maybe acceptance would be better.
I probably have a bias for artifice due to my experience in forensics competition.
Solos could have one formally dressed person standing in place playing multiple roles. I did a scene from Amadeus as a solo, where I played old Salieri, narrated, and did Mozart AND his girlfriend in what is technically flashback (and I think Salieri was in that scene too, it was when Mozart was tickling and chasing his girl. I think Salieri chastised him for it).
Duets were more fun, but it is still two actors, two chairs and a table. Nothing more. My buddy Adam and I did a killer performance of the dinner scene from Bram Stokers Dracula like this, he was a perfect Harker and I channeled Gary Oldman's Dracula as closely as possible. My vampire like teeth helped ;)
If I have to believe Javert is white, when the actor is black, then yes, it IS pretending/imagining .
Like I said, theater is something else. Fom the perspective of the audience, the environment in which the story takes place is already not realistic.
I'm sure your performances were cool and all, but it was no doubt more of a surreal experience.
But thats just it... You dont have to believe he is white.
I understand where youre coming from but this issue gets far too much focus on black/white and gender for my taste.
But if I have to believe he's black, I already explained what the problem is with that.
I think the casting puts too much focus on race and gender, so the result is that any discussions about it do so as well.
Why British actors playing French people, and why are they all speaking English? So unauthentic.
shareDumb reply. I already explained to Frogarama what the difference is. While I'd actually prefer it in French, it's understandable a British production will be in English. It changes nothing about the characters themselves.
shareSJWs strike again!!
share