Who knows in what ways him entering a relationship with that girl would in actuality affect the future they wanted.
It also retroactively cheapens the bittersweet ending of the first CA movie, but that's another subject.
Also, how could Peter Parker's friends still be at school when 5 years had passed?
Captain America travelled to an alternate timeline , grew old there and he travelled back to the main/current timeline when he was old , he lived his life with another Peggy , not the same Peggy that was in the main timeline.
shareThat seems like an extremely cheap cop-out, imo.
shareApparently the Russos intended that to be a mystery for potential stories in the future: https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/avengers-endgame-directors-answer-captain-america-mystery/ar-AAAJoIb?li=BBnb7Kz
shareYou're an idiot
shareYou're an idiot.
shareThey promised the Eternal, or whatever her name is, that they wouldn't do that because it was dangerous for reality.
He does it anyway and apparently he created a whole other possibly screwed up universe because he wanted a relationship with a dead woman.
More power to him.
shareyeah, but she was hot.
sharePeter's friend is at school because he was obviously snapped as well. I'm not sure why that's hard for a lot of people to understand.
share5 years had passed so why would they go back to high school? Were the people that were snapped aware that they were snapped? Were they aware of the passage of time? So many questions.
shareI can't imagine the average Snapee had any idea of what had happened. They were living their lives, some of them saw other people vanishing and some didn't... and then they were back. Parker was an exception in that he was aware of why people were vanishing, for most people it must have seemed like a momentary dream.
I can't imagine the chaos involved in half the world's population re-appearing, and finding that their jobs and homes had vanished or were taken by other people.
that is all i could think about after the movie. i wonder if SM:FFH will address any of this. I think it would be an interesting movie in its own right.
shareI think they were right to ignore the whole issue, and pretend that it was a happy ending.
Because if four billion people re-appeared, they'd all find their jobs gone and most would find their homes vacant or occupied by someone else, and that entire industries had vanished, and that the world's food supply had shrunk because of lowered demand and labor shortages and famine was right around the corner. And imagine all the people who re-appear to find that their entire families were dead, because they were the one driving the family car down the freeway when The Snap happened!
No, really, better to ignore it all.
I thought of that too: the people who died because of people who were snapped. what if you were on your deathbed and you were snapped and then you come back and in agony again. Where did all these people re-appear. yes, a pandora's box would be opened.
shareIf they couldn't be arsed to use the Gauntlet to take them back to five years ago and make it never happen, then yeah, they needed to make like it was a happy ending and ignore how it really would have worked out.
Hey, Captain America, let's pretend you're back just in time for a worldwide famine!
Peter Parker said somethign like "Mr Stark, I think I passed out, but Dr Strange said it's been five years and that you needed us". They don't remember. Essentially, a bunch of people time traveled five years into the future. Why wouldn't they go back to school if they are, by all measures, high school students?
shareI didn't hear what Peter or Strange said but they gave some exposition about what happened. Peter and his friend were happy to see each other which I think means they were both aware they hadn't seen each other for 5 years. If you were snapped out of existence and then back into existence, wouldn't it be like instantaneous time travel? I don't want to over think this movie but time travel/alternate time lines always creates a paradox.
shareTo begin with, the last time Ned saw Peter, he was swinging out toward a big scary spaceship. I'm sure he'd be happy to know he was safe regardless of whether or not the Snap happened.
Secondly, the scene at school happened some time after the final battle. That would likely be a week or two just to get everyone acclimated. Ned and Peter both realized they lost five years of their lives so they would at least be glad that they can share their loss. Certainly, both are likely happy to know that the other hasn't left them behind by growing five years older. There would be a lot of bittersweet feelings there.
But if Ned wasn't snapped then he would now be in college. Also, the pupils 5 years junion to Peter Parker would be in his class.
From the trailer for SP:FFH, there doesn't seem to be much explanation but I hope they do spend some time on in the movie.
Ned was snapped. We know this simply because he was still at school as a teenager.
shareWell, yeah. But the actual snap with Thanos happened 5 years before and so his friend should be graduated highschool. Unless somehow Banner only snapped the people back at the current time. Which would mean everyone that wasn't snapped has lost 5 years with their loved ones.
shareYou're absolutely right, regardless of the fanfic people are going to write to try to explain away this (and other) logic bombs in the movie.
It's a deeply flawed, epic accomplishment; if you don't stop to think too long about the internal gaffes it's a GREAT time at the movies. 8/10 for me, which is HUGE considering how central those flaws are.
I would hold off on this Peter Parker date/age/school alleged issue as a flaw or "plothole"until the film comes out. Marvel is intentionally misdirecting audiences on this one again.
https://www.dailydot.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/peter-parker-passport.jpg
Fair enough. We'll have to wait and see. But to take a step back, this is another TREMENDOUS problem, silly on the scale only a "comic book" story could get away with. To wit: dropping THREE BILLION people on the planet at the same time would be *Catastrophic.*
Again, unless you let it, it won't interfere w/your enjoyment of the movie. But this type of narrative silliness is a large part of the reason comics aren't seen as "legitimate" literature.
3.85 Billion
shareIn what circle aren't comics seen as "legitimate" literature? Where does one even find a definition of "legitimate" literature? As with any story of fantasy, science fiction, or magical realism, one suspends one's disbelief; in truth one does that when reading any fiction, even the sort that doesn't bend the rules of science to tell its story.
Did they simply drop 3 billion people on the planet at the same time? Or did undoing the snap entail other elements that weren't shared in that moment of heated battle? Perhaps part of the process of undoing it also meant creating a landscape in which 3+ billion people could return without issue. Moreover, does it matter? The point of the story isn't to offer a deep, realistic dive into population growth and sustainability of a nation's food supply when burdened with surplus demand, it's to see Captain America smack Thanos in the head with Mjolnir. If you want hard-hitting realism, check out a documentary next time.
LOL. . .where to start. . .
1) If you have trouble finding arenas in which comics are not seen as "legitimate" literature, you need to get out more. Period. You cannot seriously be claiming there aren't people, institutions, teachers, reviewers, magazine editors, etc, etc, etc who think like that. Quit it. Just Quit it.
2) Read the quotes I put around "legitimate," and understand what that means. Instead of letting your knee jerk.
3) (Corollary) I don't know anything about you, and I *GUARANTEE* you I own more comic books than you, or anyone you know. Or have met.
4) You are the umpteenth person to misunderstand/misuse "suspension of disbelief." This is NOT an example of that concept; this is simple failure to extend a concept/plot point to its logical conclusion. Which (to repeat my point) is typical of comics, and a LARGE part of the reason they are not taken seriously by many many Many people.
5) They simply dropped 3 billion people on the planet at the same time. Quit it. The implication is clear. Thanos snapped them away; Tony snapped them back. Same process, reversed. Note that your screed on "the point of the story" is EXACTLY what I said in the end of my post. . .so take a breath.
half the universe was snapped.
50% of the people disappeared.
they're now back, the same people they were five years ago. they are the same age. if peter was 15 or 16 at that time, then he's 15 or 16 five years later.
ned was also snapped.
so, apparently, was mj & flash, based on the ads for far from home.
this is all pretty straightforward.
none of these four have graduated. they're all 15 or 16 or however old they are.
and they're going back to school to complete their education. for them, their last class was yesterday.
where is the confusion in this? i am baffled by the way this is getting needlessly complicated.
And it was instant ... so they wouldn't feel like they've missed any school or anything.
The only thing is they looked like long lost friends at the end, but they were only gone for an instant.
"The only thing is they looked like long lost friends at the end, but they were only gone for an instant."
That was the only part of it that kind of bugged me.
Peter Parker was just glad he didn't die in outer spaaaaace...
shareNed knows Peter's Spider-Man, so he knows Peter's been to space AND fought Thanos in upstate NY
He's bound to be extra happy to seem him after that
Besides which, they now share the experience of being out-of-time, half of their classmates having already graduated from college.
Who knows, maybe Ned went on to hug MJ, Flash and Betty Brant (who, according to the Far From Home trailers, also appears to have been snapped)
What about the people who died as a result of half the population being snapped? People who were performing crucial critical roles like Airplane pilots mid flight, Surgeons during surgery, Nuclear plant operators, etc, etc, etc. Millions should have died as a result of the snap, that's more than half. We even saw a few planes going down when Nick Fury got snapped (IW post credit scene). Do they get to come back? Does the snap bring them back, yes or no?
sharei don't think nuclear plant operators would die, but otherwise i agree that there would be lots of deaths as a consequence of the snap, & i don't think any of those would come back.
by the rules that i think the movie set up, the people who can be brought back are those that were dusted by the stones 5 years back.
It's not a flaw. 50% of the universe were snapped and now they are back. That's the explanation.
shareNot unless his friend was snapped with him. Half the universe was snapped. Statistically, that means half of Peter's classmates were snapped along with him.
shareObviously his friend was snapped too.
share[deleted]
>>>Unless somehow Banner only snapped the people back at the current time. Which would mean everyone that wasn't snapped has lost 5 years with their loved ones.<<<
That is precisely what happened. Tony specified to Hulk that the snapped where to be returned to the current time, i.e. 5 years after they disappeared. It is specifically stated in the film. So Peter is back and its 5 years have passed and he is 16. Ned is back and its 5 years have passed and he is 16. Since we have seen them in the trailers for Far from Home, MJ and Flash were snapped, are now back and its 5 years later and they are 16.
So now the Russos have confirmed that Rogers lived out his life in an alternate timeline, which makes the ending consistent with the rest of the movie
Bruce says Steve blew past the entry point, but turns out he didn't blow TOO far past ... only as far as the bench
Something else someone pointed out on Quora, he barely knew Peggy outside of "work." It's entirely possible that, after that dance, they realized they didn't have enough in common to stay together. Steve telling Sam he won't talk about "her [Steve's wife]" means that the mystery will remain unsolved - Steve's actually talking to the audience, in other words.
Another interesting point - Bucky seemed to know what Steve was going to do, by the way he said goodbye and based on his calm attitude when Steve didn't return immediately.
The Eternal told Hulk not to do that because it would be destructive.
Kind of a selfish move by Cap, which is something he wouldn't do, which is a plot hole.
It was a plot device to get rid of Cap and have the whole Falcon is Cap crap.
The Ancient One (not Eternal, that's a completely different set of characters) warned specifically about removing the Infinity Stones, not about messing about in time in general
They already messed with time by killing a second Thanos and his army. They messed with time by bringing back people who had been gone for 5 years, so now half of the population of the universe is instantly 5 years younger than the other half. Their very plan meant that they were messing with time
In comparison with destroying one of the most powerful tyrants in the universe, responsible for mass genocide across several planets, marrying some random chick is a tiny change in the universe's history. Gratuitous? Yes. Selfish? Yeah, I guess so
But, again, the Ancient One was referring specifically to the Infinity Stones. They control reality, so removing them from one timeline is what could have great consequences, not Cap marrying Peggy Carter
She's the Ancient One not Eternal, Eternals are completely different race and breed of superpowered Aliens...
shareIt's bad writing.
share"Do what I say, not what I do..."
shareIt would have made more sense if he had lived his life in the other timeline, then reappeared as an old man in the time machine 5 seconds later, like he was supposed to.
shareI agree, it would have made more sense if they did that BUT that removes the dramatic affect of him being on the bench.
It is also similar to the beginning of the film where Captain Marvel seemingly out of no where shows up to save Tony and Nebula. In the end credits scene of "Captain Marvel" Cap, Black Widow, War Machine and Banner are at the Avengers base. The pager stops sending its signal and Captain Marvel shows up and asks "Where's Fury?"
It looked like it should have been a scene in Endgame but if they did include it the affect of her showing up to save Tony and Nebula would have been lost because the audience would have known already.
"why was Captain America excluded from the rule they made when they first decided to time travel?"
He wasn't excluded, he went rogue. He broke the rules. It was already too late.
Markus and McFeely (the writers) claim they intended Steve to have grown old in the MCU's prime timeline.
His appearance at the end was intended to be the big reveal of Peggy's unnamed, never-shown husband.
It can work - post-Endgame Steve knows he can't mess with the past Maybe he'd like to stop Loki, Ultron, the Starks' assassination and Bucky's brainwashing, but his sense of duty might also compel him to steer clear of any changes. He's on a mission, after all, to return the infinity stones - a mission to restore and preserve the current timeline. Why would he then mess up all his work by changing things?
Or ... just presume the Russos are correct and he grew old in an alternate timeline (where he very likely DID rescue Bucky and the Starks, stop Loki, Ultron and Hydra, etc.)
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Basically...because that change was meant to be. It's as simple as that, really. I'm not being awful, but the idea of old Cap travelling back to the current timeline is in no way hinted or alluded to within the film itself. It basically screams out that Steve just waited until that one specific day before turning up on that bench. I'm not buying any other explanation because they're not even hinted at in the film at all. So yes, I believe he was excluded from that rule. Why? Because God, Time, Fate, TOAA (The One Above All), call It whatever you will...deemed Steve worthy of this minor miracle.
shareNope, that's not what Tony and Bruce explained about time travel, there is more than one timeline, and the moment any entity jump back, they are in a different timeline.
And that explanation goes against Cap's nature. There is no way he would let all those terrible things happened to Bucky, Tony, or the SHIELD, knowing what he knows.
A lot of people would argue that the Cap would do that for the sake of humanity in the future. No, that's not Cap, that's Tony and Nick, but not Steve. Steve has no sense of duty, what he has is a sense of honor. Which is why he disagrees with Nick in Winter Soldier, and why he did what he did in Civil War.
I agree that it goes against what the movie explains. But there's no other way of explaining it within the film itself. There is literally zero reason why Cap didn't show up on that platform as an old man. The fact he's on the bench indicates he just allowed himself to grow old in the timeline he returned to, which somehow was the main and original one.
As for it going against Cap's character? I don't think it does. If he somehow knew this was the main timeline and not an alternate one, then he would be honour bound to do everything he could to stop the timeline from being messed up, meaning he couldn't do anything about those terrible things happening to Bucky and SHIELD, etc, etc. This would probably mean he would have to drop off the grid, reveal everything to Peggy and play out life as someone who is not Captain America. Peggy meeting the original version of Steve in The Winter Soldier wouldn't matter so much because by that stage she has severe dementia. Whatever she told Steve wouldn't hold weight.
So yeah, that's the best I can come up with given the ending of the film.
If it can't be explained within the established logic, then it's just simply an inconsistency.
As for Cap's character, I'll just ask do you think Steve would agree with the US government dropping the atomic bombs on Japan?
Knowing the character as I do, no, probably not. But what could he do about changing anything? If he knew he was in the main timeline, stopping any catastrophic future event could potentially screw everything up so much that Thanos could end up winning completely. That's why if given the chance I myself wouldn't kill baby Hitler. I couldn't take the chance that killing him would make the future worse. It's the butterfly effect.
shareThere are lots of things he could do. Rather than making sure that the future he knew happened, he could just change the past so that Thanos never came to earth. He could go back further in time and get the tesseract before Red Skull found it and hide it, or he could work with Howard to find a way to destroy it.
He could prepare the Avengers to be better prepared for Thanos, he could start the Avengers Initiate earlier. He could work with Howard Stark and prepared Tony from an earlier age to eventually become the Ironman. He could work together with the Ancient One and consult her.
He could change the future for the better, or he could make it worse. So it's either let bad things he know would happen happens for a sure future or stop the bad things and do his best to make a better unknown future. It's the same argument with the atomic bombs on Japan.
I also wouldn't kill baby Hitler, given the chance. But not because I don't want to change the future, simply because the baby hasn't done anything wrong.
But that baby will go on to do so, so, so much wrong. Personally, even if I knew killing baby Hitler would ensure a better world, I still probably wouldn't be able to do it. I'm a Catholic. I'm not big on mortal sins, especially murder. I'd probably just remove Hitler from his parents, take him somewhere else far, far away from his home. Doing that would probably be enough to ensure his rise to power. Anyway, back to Cap.
Him travelling to other times wouldn't work because they would be alternate timelines again. In my personal canon, the only timeline that links directly to the main one is the one in which he returns to Peggy. The changes you suggest he make are all too big, especially any concerning Tony (as he was ultimately the one who killed Thanos for good). I know what you're getting at, I know it would be so, so hard for Steve to stand by and do nothing, but the risk of something going wrong is too great.
Let's not forget that Dr Strange specifically said there was only one timeline in which they won. Yes, that was from the position they were in, but if the odds were that slim I can only imagine they would be slimmer with Cap changing things. I mean, when it comes to Thanos, there aren't many ways in which Steve could stop him. The only thing I can think of is getting Wanda to kill Vision and destroy the mind stone. That's the only positive change I can think of that would definitely make things better.
"He could change the future for the better, or he could make it worse. So it's either let bad things he know would happen happens for a sure future or stop the bad things and do his best to make a better unknown future."
The sure future every time. That's what I'd choose. And I'm sure Bucky, Tony, and everyone else close to Steve would agree with that.
There is literally zero reason why Cap didn't show up on that platform as an old man.
Yeah, it did kinda tick me off at first. It soured the actual ending for me for the first couple of minutes as I was leaving the cinema. But it is only a movie after all, and movies have flaws. Not explaining this away at all (even a throwaway line would have helped) is disappointing, but it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Either way, we know for a fact that the Captain America we know got his happy ending with Peggy, regardless of the timeline he lived his life out in. I just choose to believe it was the original timeline as that's what is hinted at in the movie itself.
share