MovieChat Forums > And Then There Were None (2015) Discussion > British Vocabulary

British Vocabulary

posted 9 years ago by neilacts
63 replies | jump to latest

I realize that as an American watching a British-made film of a British novel, there is a bit of confusion about words or phrases. Might it have been helpful for the screenwriter to have explained or modified the language that modern folks outside of Great Britain might not know? For example:

chancery: in a hopeless predicament
"red herring": a misleading clue.

Would this be considered "dumbing the story down"? Certainly other elements were changed for effect -- plot points, even language (the inclusion of vulgar swear words). What do you think?

[–] bellapeligrosa 9 years ago

I would have thought the Britishness of it would be charming. You're watching a show set in another culture, as well as another time. Plus you learned something from it because it forced you to consult a dictionary (or wiki/google). If having to do this galls you, as does our programming, then I'd say just don't watch British shows at all and stick to All-American, which is clearly where your comfort zone lies. I would be very angry - as would most Brits - if we started changing our quality of writing just so it's easier for US audiences.

It's too cerebral! We're trying to make a movie here, not a film!

[–] littlesue-567-593153 9 years ago

I wonder if the OP ever watched Peaky Blinders😂

[–] bellapeligrosa 9 years ago

Perhaps he watched it with a dubbed Texan soundtrack!

It's too cerebral! We're trying to make a movie here, not a film!

[–] puirt-a-beul 9 years ago

I would have thought "red herring" was a very common term, especially in the context of a murder mystery! ;-)

I don't understand where anyone thought "chancery" meant "a hopeless predicament", though. I think someone's jumped to a whole heap of conclusions. It really means an office of the High Court, as directed by the Lord Chancellor.

The Chancery Court was set up to handle cases that could be fairly easily remedied with a somewhat looser application of the law than in regular court, where disputes tended to get more bogged down -- thus hopefully easing the backlog on the court system, and providing litigants with a quicker resolution. When the poem says,
"Ten little soldier boys going in for Law;
One got in Chancery and then there were four."
it probably means he was being sued, or prosecuted, and was hence taken out of action. A predicament of a kind, I guess, but "predicament" is not what the word means.

In answer to the general question: no, I don't think language should ever be "dumbed down". A Philosopher's Stone, for instance, is both a specific artefact and an alchemical principle, and if people don't know what a term means, well that's what dictionaries and encyclopaedias are for. Learning how to find out things you don't know is a valuable part of education.

You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

[–] shellieeyre 9 years ago

The Chancery Court was set up to handle cases that could be fairly easily remedied with a somewhat looser application of the law than in regular court, where disputes tended to get more bogged down -- thus hopefully easing the backlog on the court system, and providing litigants with a quicker resolution.

However, it became the court where cases went to die -see Jarndyce v Jarndyce in Bleak House, and so having a case "in Chancery" is also shorthand for being enmeshed in a seemingly endless, convoluted situation.

Another poster is right when s/he says that going in for Chancery means becoming a Judge of the Chancery Court.

I'm the clever one; you're the potato one.

[–] diverdiva 9 years ago

Interesting that you know the poem as "Ten little Soldier boys ....". The original book title before the age of political correctness was taken from the poem as it was first chanted and was "Ten little N...rs (disgusting name for black Africans)". This was then changed to "Ten little Indians ...". I suppose that is also now considered too racist, so we now have soldier boys. Every dramatization of the book has been called "And Then There Were None" - has anyone seen a recent edition of the book - has the title been changed again?
Although I agree that Christie wrote some great page-turners, she was a product of her age and portrayed some dreadful stereotypes of Jews and indeed most other foreigners (Italians were always over-excitable, people from the Middle East mostly oily and sly, etc., etc.) especially in her early works!

As for the OP's question - the whole point of the judge being dressed up in a wig and gown to be "in Chancery" at his death would have been made meaningless if the words were changed (and the poem wouldn't have scanned!). Here's a suggestion - if you don't understand a word or concept, look it up and get the additional benefit of broadening your knowledge!

"Inconceivable!"

[–] puirt-a-beul 9 years ago

Hi diverdiva,
I didn't actually know the "soldier boys" version, until I saw this TV version -- I was using that in the quote to try to be sure I didn't offend anyone by simply quoting the poem as it used to be.  I grew up knowing it as "n----r boys"; I understand why "soldier" boys, of course, but it still feels awkward.

You make a good point about Christie's inherited racial stereotypes, but she wasn't alone in that. When I was a wee kid I loved Noddy -- remember how he used to have fun in his red car running down the Golliwogs and laughing? And I'm still a big fan of Tintin (the comics, *not* the blerkk CGI film!!) and Hergé dealt heavily in stereotypes in those as well.

You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

[–] Kenny J 9 years ago

Chancery refers to the legal profession and was used in relation to the judge (charles Dance).

[–] Ann1115 9 years ago

When the poem says on went in for Chancery, it is meaning that one BECAME a chancery judge. Hence why in the book, and most adaptations, the judge is dressed in judge's robe and wig. It is even noted by the characters in the book that they should have realized beforehand that the judge was due to die at that point.

[–] perfect909 9 years ago

To the original question of this thread: no, of course the language used should not be modified. Yes, that would be dumbing down the story. Sorry if you missed the meaning of some lines (I did too), but they are not telling the story just for our sake.

As long as we're on the topic of regional phrases, however, I'm curious about the term Fenian. I had to look that one up. Is that term in common use outside of Ireland?

[–] momur (107) 6 years ago

About "Fenian", no. On the whole (can't speak for the Irish but certainly on the English side of things), we don't tend to refer to each other besides the names of "Irish" and "English". We sort of have a bit of a rocky past so we've learned to tread quite carefully around each other, which means not calling each other derogatory names, which "Fenian" has become especially in Northern Ireland where it's used as a derogatory term for Irish Catholics. It also has its origin rooted firmly in an actual 19th century Irish republican political movement which has been eclipsed now by the IRA so while it would make sense for an Englishman in the 1930s to refer to an Irishman as a Fenian, most people nowadays are more familiar with the IRA than the Fenian uprising. Its use here is to show what kind of person Blore is and what his attitudes are. By calling Lombard a Fenian, Blore isn't just calling him an Irishman, he's implying that being Irish automatically makes Lombard dangerous especially since he's drawing attention to the fact that Lombard has a gun.

[–] wendycscott9 9 years ago

You might find this interesting from the Online Etymology Dictionary:

red herring (n.) "smoked herring" early 15c. (they turn red when cured), as opposed to white herring "fresh herring." Supposedly used by fugitives to put bloodhounds off their scent (1680s), hence metaphoric sense (1864) of "something used to divert attention from the basic issue;" earlier simply "a false lead":

"Though I have not the honour of being one of those sagacious country gentlemen, who have so long vociferated for the American war, who have so long run on the red-herring scent of American taxation before they found out there was no game on foot; (etc.) [Parliamentary speech dated March 20, 1782, reprinted in "Beauties of the British Senate," London, 1786]

It's an old expression, therefore, and one Americans have long been familiar with since so many of our citizens have British ancestry, and English is our main language, too.

[–] robison380 9 years ago

Re: Chancery. I'm not sure where you found your definition for the word chancery. I have always known it to be the name used in the British court system. Are you perhaps mistaken with the word chancy meaning risky, unpredictable, uncertain, precarious; unsafe, insecure, tricky, high-risk, hazardous, perilous etc.

[–] vicky_lc2001-1 9 years ago

English isn't my first language and I know what red herring means.

Chancery though ......

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[–] Shimmer_Me_Timbers 9 years ago

I'm an American and I learned what a red herring was in like middle school. Not to be rude but if you're having difficulties with words and phrases just google it.

I think that making it more "Americanized" would take away from story and dumb it down.

[–] VValkyrie 9 years ago

You are correct Shimmer. If in doubt, look it up, try opening a dictionary or read the book.