It's no secret that even though the movies don't say it, Cap is supposed to be the Democrat and Tony the Republican. Cap represents freedom, Tony security.
Cap supporters are the ones who scream the loudest for accountability among police, but superheroes? Nope. Free reign., especially the left-leaning ones.
To be fair, Cap had a point in not wanting the government controlling them. If the Kree invade Afghanistan but the Afghanistan Government refuses to let the Avengers deal with it, then the Kree are going to kill everyone in Afghanistan and the country of Afghanistan will be no more.
share"To be fair, Cap had a point in not wanting the government controlling them."
So cops and the military need to be "controlled", adhere to laws, respect a chain of command, but superheroes - who are little more than vigilantes - can do whatever the want?
In some ways yes. Certain governments would sooner be destroyed by aliens than to allow the Avengers to help them fight them and save them. That's Cap's problem. If controlled by the government they can't save a country from destruction.
shareSeems like you have it the wrong way around.
Democrats love Big Government intervention, as seen with all the Democrats supporting lockdowns, restriction of freedoms, mask mandates, and supporting vaccine passports. All of that is authoritarian and relative to the Skovia Accords being pushed in Civil War (i.e., more restrictions, more government control).
So if anything, Cap's side represents Republicans while Tony's side represents Democrats, since Democrats seem to hate freedom.
Wanda Maximoff, Black Widow, Bucky and all the other law breakers definitely aren't Republicans, LOL.
The Accords are law. Law put for by the government. The government is undoubtedly Republican in the MCU. Everything they do is hated and wrong in the MCU. This is actively still going on in Falcon and the Winter Solider; and Sam sure as shit ain't no Republican. Republicans are all about "law and order" (except when they are not). Back the blue, don't resist, etc. General Ross was the one working with Stark on trying to get the Accords passed and that man ain't no Democrat.
It's the MCU version and approach to The Patriot Act and the events that led to it's signing. That sure as shit wasn't a liberal thing.
Cap's argument never had A THING to do with big government. He was simply against it because he didn't want to be told what to do or held accountable. It was never about "big government", it was about "freedom". Freedom to do whatever he wanted and be held to a different level of accountability than normal people.
Christ, both shows still have this same exact mindset. Wanda, Sam, Bucky - they all break the law whenever they want. The law is the bad guy. Being patriotic is portrayed as a bad thing.
Wanda Maximoff, Black Widow, Bucky and all the other law breakers definitely aren't Republicans, LOL.
The government is undoubtedly Republican in the MCU.
Sam sure as shit ain't no Republican.
Cap's argument never had A THING to do with big government. He was simply against it because he didn't want to be told what to do or held accountable.
Freedom to do whatever he wanted and be held to a different level of accountability than normal people.
"He supports meritocracy and upholding the law"
LOL! Sam breaks the law all the time! He was anti-Accords, worked with Zemo (1 terrorist), and refused to fight Morgantheau - and then proceeds to lecture the government officials for daring to call her a terrorist. "Don't call her a terrorist." Bro, you are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.
Welcome to my ignore list, ya dope.
shareDemocrats want to register weapons or take them away completely. What do you think the registration act in this movie is compared to that?
You've got this totally backwards
Left-wingers see the authority/government as containing people that are fallible and therefore shouldn't be given unlimited power, something that is shown to happen. Restraint of police and military is a goal of the left so that less mistakes happen, saving the lives of innocents.
Right-wingers see the authority/government as potentially containing people that deserve power because they will use it to protect, something that is also shown to happen. Increasing the police and military is a goal of the right so that more protection happens, saving the lives of innocents.
Left-wing Cap supporters are not hypocrites because they would reject the idea of superheroes being granted authority power. The outermost edge of left-wing ideology is Anarchism, because like you said, left-wing ideology is based on freedom from authority.
Right-wing Iron Man supporters aren't hypocrites either. They would go along with superheroes being granted full power because superheroes demonstrated they are superior in some way. The outermost edge of right-wing ideology is Theocracy, the belief in a higher power.
In simple terms it's Anarchism vs Authoritarianism. Neither is the best ideology. The best is something in between.
Asking vigilantes to obey the rules, the law, be held to the same standards as the rest of us peons, isn't Authoritarianism though. It's just holding them to the same standards as anyone else. They operated outside the laws.
The heroes get away with whatever they want in the MCU. No accountability whatsoever. There's countless examples from the movies, but even just looking at the current shows:
1. Wanda took an entire town hostage and tortured them. Walked away Scott Free and the big mean evil government man who tried to take her down was the only one to go to prison.
2. Sam and Bucky are still doing whatever they want. Sam tried to negotiate with a terrorist (Morgantheau) multiple times. He carries her dead body and it's portrayed as if her death is a tragedy. He lectures government officials "don't call her a terrorist" and aided Bucky; who broke Zemo (another terrorist) out of international prison.
Trying to level the playing field and prevent these heroes from doing whatever they want isn't Authoritarianism, it's fair and right.
I didn't say that was Authoritarianism. I said the extreme of right-wing ideology is Authoritarianism, just as the extreme of left-wing ideology is Anarchism. I said neither is good because they are both extreme. The best is somewhere in the middle.
In a world of nexus-level beings such as Wanda, there's no mechanism to reign in that nexus-level being's ability. Wanda can only be imprisoned if she chooses to be. They showed her reading the Darkhold anyway, revealing she's about to become a villain.
Sam explained the label of terrorist is used to avoid the question of why, which is true. Right-wing ideology doesn't care about why something happens. Why did people riot last summer? Right-wingers didn't care that it was because George Floyd was killed. You see this all the time on the politics board. Why did people riot on January 6th? Right-wingers didn't care that it was because Trump lied about winning an election he lost.
Left-wingers want that stuff understood so it can be prevented the next time around. Right-wingers will do everything in their power to avoid the question so people shut up about it and focus on condemnation after the fact which doesn't accomplish anything. Keeping things exactly as they are is the core of right-wing conservatism. Moving forward is left-wing progressivism.
Sam, Bucky and all the Avengers are not an authority. The superhero authority was SHIELD which got dismantled by Cap at the end of Winter Soldier after Project Insight revealed authority is susceptible to being infiltrated by extreme Authoritarianism which was Hydra in the MCU, coincidentally the creator of Wanda Maximoff.
The Avengers would have to organize as some kind of Justice League or The Seven to get the attention of left-wingers to reign them all in. The Avengers are always too much in the background or too scattered to be considered that kind of authority.
"Right-wing ideology doesn't care about why something happens. Why did people riot last summer? Right-wingers didn't care that it was because George Floyd was killed. You see this all the time on the politics board. Why did people riot on January 6th? Right-wingers didn't care that it was because Trump lied about winning an election he lost.
Left-wingers want that stuff understood so it can be prevented the next time around."
BRB, gotta go wash the vomit out of my mouth.
In other words, I said something you couldn't refute, so you had to find another way out of the conversation.
shareYou're right. I can't refute it. Nothing I can say would get through that thick, biased, "progressive" skull of yours. You wear your liberal heart on your sleeve, so your post is no surprise, but that was bad even for you. You don't have a shred of objectivity in you.
shareYou struggle because you have a right-wing mind that can only attempt to figure out complicated things by warping them into simpler terms.
When left-wing minds can't find the answer to something, they go to the scientists, doctors, mathematicians, etc who can. In doing so, they get to the root of the problem.
When right-wing minds can't find the answer to something, they tend to make it as black and white as possible so they can come to a conclusion on their own. In doing so, they often fail to get to the root of the problem.
To the right-wing mind, the summer riots happened not because there's an underlying problem of police getting extra protection from lawsuits that's interwoven into the justice system, but instead it happened because Maxine Waters and/or the media told them to do it.
To the right-wing mind, the January 6th riot happened not because of the series of lies from the narcissist Trump who conspired with Giuliani and Powell to suggest the left rigged it to institute communism, but instead it happened because there was probably some funny stuff going on with the ballots.
To the right-wing mind, things get produced by Hollywood not because of corporate meetings with charts and data showing where the profit margins are, but instead it's because of a woke agenda.
To the right-wing mind, things get cancelled not because the majority of people with spending money side more with left-wing ideology along with companies who not only want to maximize profits but also contain people of the same ideology, but instead it's because of a woke agenda.
All right-wing brains can do is push the easy button and be done with it.
Nice try.
When left-wing minds can't find the answer to something, they go to the scientists, doctors, mathematicians, etc who can. In doing so, they get to the root of the problem.
"Not when they - the left-wing minds! - are told that THEY are the root of the problem."
Those who say left-wing minds are the problem are pushing the easy button. They are blaming the left for something more interwoven in society than left vs right... because it's easier to understand it that way, but as usual, misses the root of the problem.
Good approach. In the US the problem might be also the only 2-party-system. That eases black and white thinking a lot.
shareYou are a child. A complete and total child. This entire post is essentially, "Liberals are never wrong and Conservatives always are."
shareI didn't say anything about conservatives. The right is moving beyond conservatism, pushing conservatives toward the middle.
While Mitt Romney is out there criticizing this administration for being too far left, the majority of the right wants him kicked out for saying the election wasn't stolen and for not praying to Cheeto Jesus.
Conservatives have no real party of their own any more. They wander between the two.
But instead of using your brain to figure any of that out, you push the easy button and assume I was saying "Liberals are never wrong and Conservatives always are" which isn't anywhere close to what I wrote.
I bumped this thread in light of the Mar-A-Lago brouhaha over "Rule-Of-Law" and Trumpism.
Thanks!
Isn’t it ironic, that in the current climate Cap represents MAGA and equality, and Tony represents fascist pro-lockdown Democrats and discrimination.
shareHow is that ironic?
shareYou people are retarded. Cap is absolutely in no way, shape, or form a Trumper.
shareI don't think the politics of the MCU are meant to mirror those of our world, but if we analyze the viewpoints, I think we can match each to one of our real-world parties:
Captain America: represents the flag, stands up for the little guy, believes in doing the right thing over the easy thing, opposes big government control, rejects the idea that the ends justify the means
Iron Man: billionaire, tech giant, believes in a global community, willing to sacrifice personal freedom and privacy so that a governing body can keep us safe
Captain America is clearly representative of Republican values/beliefs, and Iron Man absolutely represents the Democrats.
There are of course nuances, because these are fictional characters in a fictional world, but it's pretty clear which side is which.
When is the last time you met a pro-military/cop and security Democrat? Iron Man is Republican. He's a much more moderate one than the current incarnation of the party, but he's clearly the Republican of the two.
Oh, and it's the Democrats who think of themselves as the party of the little guy.
As I said, they are not clear mirror images.
As for Democrats and the military/police, they tend to believe they have the right ideas for public safety and security, and see themselves as in support of both. They'd argue that defunding the police, for example, doesn't mean no police, it means a police force trained in conflict resolution, that uses violence as a last resort. I think Tony's "trust the government" version of security vs. Steve's "keep yourself safe" approach supports my notion.
Similar can be said about the "party of the little guy." Democrats may want to think of themselves as such, but they clearly are not. They're the party of the wealthy and influential.
Not to drag race into it, but compare Tony's relationship, and treatment of, Rhodey to Steve and Sam. One has a lackey, that he treats like a sidekick, the other a partner that he treats as an equal, and to whom he passes on his shield, and mantle. One could argue this mirrors the way Democrats have sponsored and supported racism from day one until today, but works to keep African-Americans down to keep them voting Democrat, vs. Republicans, who treat everyone as equal.
"Not to drag race into it, but compare Tony's relationship, and treatment of, Rhodey to Steve and Sam. One has a lackey, that he treats like a sidekick, the other a partner that he treats as an equal, and to whom he passes on his shield, and mantle."
Tony literally builds Rhodey armor. What a foolish comment.
He builds him armor so he can use it to help him, not out of kindness. But be honest-- do you really think Tony and Rhodey have the same partners/equals relationship as did Steve and Sam? Tony uses Rhodey's military connections when it helps him, but he keeps him at arm's length, and doesn't treat him as an equal. Even Rhodey's armor is a far cry from Tony's. No nano-tech, nothing fancy. Just armor and some guns. Rhodey is more like an armored butler than an equal.
shareTony doesn't have anyone other than Pepper and Rhodes.
He doesn't give him a better armor most probably because they don't want to deviate too much from the comics, in other words we don't know.
But Rhodes is certainly more than a butler to Tony. He's his only friend.
I don't deny they are friends. I'm pointing out that Tony's treatment of his friends is different than Steve's.
share"I don't deny they are friends."
Except you did just that:
"Rhodey is more like an armored butler than an equal."
You're talking in circles.
I've never denied they were friends. My entire point is that Tony treats Rhodey as both a resource and a subordinate, while Steve treats Sam an equal and an heir.
shareOh, and it's the Democrats who think of themselves as the party of the little guy.
Of the two parties, which would you say is more pro-police, military, and strong defense?
shareHang on, though. Cap is a purebred soldier, though. Absolutely pro-military and strong defense.
I can't think of any patriotic U.S., soldiers who are Democrats.
"I can't think of any patriotic U.S., soldiers who are Democrats."
The level of crazy you have to be to actually believe this.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2018/10/17/troops-see-rising-political-tension-in-the-ranks-poll-shows/
https://journalistsresource.org/politics-and-government/veterans-republican-party-affiliation/
Not really. First off, I said "patriotic U.S., soldiers", which discounts the paltry 23.6% of soldiers who would vote for Democrats in your first link. If they support gun right restrictions, big government, and limited freedoms, then they obviously aren't very patriotic since those go against the basic foundations of the Constitution.
A true patriot would defend basic rights, not side with a tyrannical group looking to restrict those rights.
As for this link here:
https://journalistsresource.org/politics-and-government/veterans-republican-party-affiliation/
It's an interesting read but is quite easily explained away given that the 55% of people surveyed as being Democratic veterans during World War II would actually have been Republicans. Why? Because the roles reversed after the Civil Rights Act passed in the 1960s:
https://www.history.com/news/how-the-party-of-lincoln-won-over-the-once-democratic-south
It started with the Dixiecrats during the rise of the Civil Rights movement.
You're probably curious about the third of veteran troops who identified with the Democratic party from the 1970s onward? Well, there are some anti-war veterans who were disillusioned coming out of Vietnam:
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/vietnam-veterans-against-the-war-demonstrate
But none of that detracts from my point about any patriotic U.S., soldiers being Democrats.
That is to say, there are definitely U.S., soldiers who may identify as or vote Democrat, but hardly patriotic.
And who make up the police and military, and want a safe, well-defended America? Here's a hint-- not the billionaire class.
share....ok?
shareThe working-class, middle class, lower class, everyday Americans, i.e. Republicans.
shareWhat is your point?
shareIf you are trying to equate the sides in Civil War to American politics, Captain America and his team represent Republicans, and Iron Man and his team Democrats.
shareI still don't get how he flipped the two around, it couldn't be more obvious which side represents which political party.
share"Iron Man and his team Democrats."
Those pro-law and order Dems, gotta love em. God knows I do. Always following the rules and respecting the law.
Hydra are the republicans.
shareReally? Cuz they (Hydra) sure look and act a lot like antifa.
shareJust shows how little you understand. Don't worry about it.
shareHydra is something of a Nazi-like group, which perfectly mirrors Antifa, the Nazis who pretend to hate Nazis.
shareYou ever see someone or even be involved in a conversation with someone who is super confident about their (incorrect) opinion? Like they're soo convinced they are right, but aren't" That's you right now.
shareWhat kinda shit take is this? Cap is in favor of reduced government interference (and old fashioned american values lol)
Cap is supposed to be the Democrat and Tony the Republican. Cap represents freedom, Tony security.
The only thing this entire discussion proves is that Labels Are Stupid.
Everyone is defining "Republican," "Democrat," "Left," "Right," "Conservative," and "Liberal" in easy, soundbite-sized pieces. Which is, of course, ridiculous.
Meanwhile, all the sane people see that there are compelling arguments on both sides of Most issues, and the truth is almost always somewhere in the middle. And even those who peel off one of those stickers and label themselves find that it's not as neat a process as imagined. . .because it ends up overlapping another of those stickers.
Sigh.
"Meanwhile, all the sane people see that there are compelling arguments on both sides of Most issues"
All the sane people? Where are they? Because this is a divided world with only two (real) options - and our art reflects that.
Stark is for a stronger "military" or police. You tell me which party that aligns with more. Is that a Democrat trait? Come on.
You think Sam Wilson is a Republican? Because he's one of Steve's best friends and is with him ALL THE TIME. That line of thinking even continued into his TV show. "Stop calling them terrorists." Does that sound like something a Republican would say? Bucky and him constantly breaking the law - and thinking it's justified - and excusing terrorism? Come on.
It's fascinating. . .and I mean that literally. . .that you so completely missed (ignored?) what I said.
Sam, Tony, Cap, and just about everyone else are pretty clearly APOLITICAL. Some of the things they say/do represent left/Dem/lib principles, some represent right/Rep/conservative ones. The reason the (ridiculous) argument above is happening is, simply, because people are attempting to put these fictional characters into these neatly-designed boxes.
That's tough enough with Real people. With these characters? Absurd.
Apolitical, LOL?! In a movie about politics in which each one of them chose sides? Apolitical, ha! Did you hit your head?! Even the people who think I am wrong - that Cap is the Republican - see it's quite a political movie and the characters took sides based on that fact. You can't work with - can't say for since heroes are technically not only not government employees, but vigilantes - the government and be apolitical.
You think liberals are big cop supporters after the Republican riot after last summer and the general anti-cop sentiments of the last 5 years? Every time a cop touches someone - particularly if they are black - there's outrage. Jesus H. Christ, there's police cam footage of Ma'Khia Bryant trying to STAB another girl: https://s.abcnews.com/images/US/210422_abcnl_prime_ault_hpMain_16x9_992.jpg and not only was there outrage, Lebron James outright threatened the cop involved: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EziPL-6WEA8_cRp.jpg.
Falcon & The Winter Soldier even threw in that shot at the police in the scene where the cop asked Sam to calm down when arguing with Bucky, which goes right back to my original comment. Cap supporters/Dems hold cops to a different standard than heroes; who are vigilantes. Outrage over a cop yelling at Sam. Heroes laying waste to cities? Silence or excuses for the heroes actions. But yeah, Dems are super supportive of police.
When is the last time you heard a Democrat say something pro-police?
shareDunno if you're American, but there was a horrific event in the US involving police in the nation's capital on January 6th. Many lost their lives/were deeply traumatized. In the aftermath, just about every Democrat has attempted to praise the actions and bravery of the police; the last budget had line items specifically to raise funding for their department. Every Republican voted against this, and several Republicans have either minimized the events of that day, or outright Denied It Happened.
I could give you many, many more examples, but. . .come on. Really.
In the aftermath, just about every Democrat has attempted to praise the actions and bravery of the police;
"Government interference"
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Are you drunk? The super humans exist OUTSIDE THE LAW. Trying to reign that in isn't "big government", you paranoid goof, that's called equality.