MovieChat Forums > Iron Fist (2017) Discussion > The hypocrisy is stunning

The hypocrisy is stunning


This writer nailed it.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/01/not-your-asian-ninja-how-the-marvel-cinematic-universe-keeps-failing-asian-americans.html

excerpt:


Look, I, like every other Asian-American geek in the country, was on board with the#AAIronFist petition, which asked Marvel to consider casting an Asian-American actor as the traditionally white kung fu superhero Danny Rand. I have nothing against Finn Jonesas an actor and I think he could probably do a reasonable job with a “faithful” adaptation of the Iron Fist character. Just like I didn’t think it was a necessity that the racially ambiguous Dr. Strange be cast as an Asian guy, although making his faithful manservant Chinese felt like a slap to the face.

But here’s what gets me: They did do a “race lift” of a martial arts-oriented character. They took Elektra Natchios, who, if you couldn’t tell from her name, is supposed to be Greek, and cast the French-Cambodian actress Elodie Yung to play her. In order to justify this casting choice they radically changed Elektra’s backstory, making her an adopted child of the Greek ambassador Hugo Natchios rather than his biological daughter and removing the daddy issues between her and Hugo that—in case you couldn’t tell from the not-very-subtle reference in her name—played a big role in her original characterization.


All of this is exactly the same as what people asked for when they asked for kung fu superhero Iron Fist to be an Asian guy. “Danny Rand” could easily be the name of an Asian kid adopted by a Caucasian family. All the stuff in Danny Rand’s story about him being a Mighty Whitey outsider to “kung fu” culture could be about an Asian-American guy reconnecting with legends and folklore he’d long dismissed as irrelevant to him. We even have precedent for that in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, with Stellan Skarsgard’s Dr. Selvig’s incredulous reaction to the absurdity of his childhood stories of Thor and Loki being real.

But for whatever reason, they decided against that. They were willing to “racebend” one well-known character—one who’s already had a movie where she was played by Jennifer Garner—but not a much more obscure character who, unlike Elektra, was the focus of a massive community demand for positive representation.

So what gives? What are the differences between those two characters?
Just off the top of my head: Elektra isn’t the hero of her own story, and Danny Rand is. Elektra isn’t really heroic at all, in fact, while Danny Rand is. Elektra, in all her portrayals, is an amoral killer who’s a foil for Matt Murdock’s morality, and in this particular portrayal she’s some sort of inherently evil demonic killing machine. Danny Rand, by contrast, is an ordinary likable guy in over his head trying to do his best—the kind of Everyman hero we’re used to seeing played by white guys named Chris.

Finally—and this is the big one—Elektra is a hot chick who’s there as a love interest for a white guy main character to lust after, and for the audience to lust after by extension in various sex scenes and half-naked fight scenes. Danny Rand is a guy, and therefore of less interest to fetishists, thanks to the racial preference hierarchy that says Asian women get to be sex objects and Asian men get to be invisible.


It is a double standard. And the writer is correct that Electra, thanks to a motion picture made about her, was arguably the more well known character among mainstream audiences. And yet TPTB had no issue in changing her racial identity and tweaking her origin story to boot.

What I also noticed was how few fans objected to this. Which demonstrated a pattern among fanboys, or more specifically, white fanboys. When the race bending took place for a character that was NOT a white male character there was far less outrage (Think: Electra, Iris West, Sunspot, Terry Fitzgerald of the Spawn film, Alicia Masters of the F4 movies from ahwile back....hell Sue Storm of those same F4 movies considering Jessica Alba ain't exactly white). But let that racebending happen to a white male character (even though 95% of the heroes and villains in comic book history are white males) and white fanboys lose their minds.

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Was is expressly stated that her character was half Asian? Fine the actress was, but her character was supposed to be something other than human.

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There was no outrage about Nick Fury being black, though.







"I can't lie to you about your chances, but you have my sympathies."

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That's because he was based on the Ultimate universe Nick Fury - and there were plenty of complaints when that happened at the time, same with Ultimate Spider-Man.


It's hot... but not as hot as the night Johnny Viti got married...

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Actually the Ultimate Nick Fury was based on Samuel L. Jackson's portrayal, which has been excellent.

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Not actually true, Ultimates Nick Fury appears in the comics several years before the movies existed, but they had used Samuel L. Jackson as inspiration for his look, so they cast Samuel L. Jackson after the fact, luckily they were able to get him

http://superfrenemies.blogspot.com/

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What I had read is that Samuel L. Jackson was going to sue Marvel for profiting off of his likeness without permission, but a deal was struck that if Nick Fury was ever used in a live action role, the part would be Jackson's. I don't know how much of that is true.

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the African American nick fury is supposed to be the son of the og nick fury. African American mother nick fury father.

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Actually Ultimate Marvel's Fury is just black. He was well received enough for them to introduce the concept into the mainstream comics as Fury Classic's son. A cool idea I think, but I haven't read anything with Jr in it.

The crown has arrived warrior of great chieftaincy of abundant prosperity

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That was before the Ultimate publication, where Marcus Johnson AKA Nick Fury, Jr. was the first black version of Fury.

I think I know precisely what I mean when I say it's a shpadoinkle day!

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There was no outrage about Nick Fury being black, though.
Because it was Samuel L. Jackson.

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When the race bending took place for a character that was NOT a white male character there was far less outrage (Think: Electra, Iris West, Sunspot, Terry Fitzgerald of the Spawn film, Alicia Masters of the F4 movies from ahwile back....hell Sue Storm of those same F4 movies considering Jessica Alba ain't exactly white). But let that racebending happen to a white male character (even though 95% of the heroes and villains in comic book history are white males) and white fanboys lose their minds.


The Iris West casting was a big deal on the Flash board. It lead to a lot of people wanting to pair Barry with someone else. It also meant Wally West would be black, which upset a lot of people. However, if they had made the star of the show black, it'd probably would have been cancelled after one season.

Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice is Fan4astic!

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I'm one of those people who wanted Wally West to be a ginger, I don't mind racial change pretty much, but I wish the Flash movie differs a bit from the tv show, but yeah they already cast her so I guess I have to accept it...

If people were trying to bring you DOWN, that means you were ABOVE them.

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That writer is an idiot. You want an asian kung fu guy, start a campaign to get a Shang Chi series. There are plenty of stories there. You could even start it in the '70s and later do a time hop.



Happiness is a warm gun.~ The Beatles 
No touching guns. River ~ Firefly

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Lots of assumptions here, dude. I think it's fairly an undisputed fact that 99% of all badass kungfu guys are Asian. There's Chuck Norris and Caradine and the guy with the long ass beard from like ten decades ago, but who else really? Asian people dominate anything to do with kung fu.

And that's harmful right there. Michelle Yeoh had to go out and learn tai chi and martial arts to act in a movie because she had to be cast as a kung fu specialist?

Everybody on tv, or in a movie is arguably a sex object, except the women on lifetime channel, probably.

My take on it is racebending is bad either way. Discrimination is discrimination. "How is Finn going to portray the characters kung fu skills properly?" So if he was asian, he could actually punch trains and bullets and *beep* That would be more believable? I've been in kung fu classes whit zero asians (east indians, i guess you guys call them asians too, idk). no japanese, chinese, thai or korean. Hell, my brother is like a shotokan genius, and he's black. I've seen one badass kendo japanese girl, one, and her sensei was a huge white guy who looked something like Dana from MMA.

It's absurd that people would NEED a kung fu guy to be asian.

I'm not a white fanboy, but I'm losing my mind that they cast Elba to be the Gunslinger even though I'm a massive elba fan since his stringer bell days. Characters exist, people already get attached to them in one way, to change in the name of political correctness pleases who. Half the people complaining are like, "wait, so he was white in the comics?" they're not even fans, just SJWs looking for a bandwagon.

Fans protest. Nothing to do with whiteness. Real fans want it how they already like it.




Clever people will recognize and tolerate nothing but cleverness.

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Characters exist, people already get attached to them in one way, to change in the name of political correctness pleases who. Half the people complaining are like, "wait, so he was white in the comics?" they're not even fans, just SJWs looking for a bandwagon.

Fans protest. Nothing to do with whiteness. Real fans want it how they already like it.


Some real fans don't care. Not all fans consider race salient to every character. I'm a big Conner Hawke fan. When he was introduced he was a very brown man of white,black, and Asian heritage. Over time he's gotten whiter and whiter. He also has blonde hair. The Hawke we got on Arrow was a black guy. They are all Conner Hawke.



#GiveElsaAnAsianBOYfriend.

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Connor Hawke and Danny Rand are two very different type of characters though. I don't think anyone has any strong feelings about Connor Hawke one way or the other.

But going with that example, if someone was like hey, "How can this black dude possibly portray an archer. That's not a strong sport for African Americans, I won't be convinced at all that he's a superhero vigilante with competent archery skills. I need a Greek or a Brit." That would be ridiculous, right?

By your logic they can cast a white Shaft, or Blade, and then be all, "Chill out. They're all Blade."

If whitewashing is wrong on principle, then the principle can't be wishy-washy and applicable only when it works in one groups favour. We should press for them to make original black characters, don't just approve of blackwashed characters. I don't want a black Black Widow, I want to see the Daughters of the Dragon.





Clever people will recognize and tolerate nothing but cleverness.

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Connor Hawke and Danny Rand are two very different type of characters though. I don't think anyone has any strong feelings about Connor Hawke one way or the other.


You try to point out hypocrisy right after you display hypocrisy. Just because YOU perceive a character to be unimportant does not mean he isn't. I care much more about Conner Hawke than Rand and I'm sure other DC aficionados feel the same way.


[quote]If whitewashing is wrong on principle, then the principle

Whites have systematically and intentionally excluded non-whites from representation in all avenues of life. To continue to use the advantage they gained unfairly is wrong. It's funny that defenders of the white supremacy mindset thought that could continue forever.

#GiveElsaAnAsianBOYfriend #AsianJamesBond #GiveOliverQueenASpin-off

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Dude, isn't America predominantly Caucasian? Aren't like 90 something percent of the Marvel crew Caucasian? Isn't the Marvel target audience predominantly white Americans?

It's a leap to go from this straight to evil white supremacists.

"If a character is of xyz in the original portrayal, the character should remain of xyz decent in its adaptation, especially if the character I'm his original portrayal is like to already have an invested fandom."

That's basically my stand. It seems logical. Also I hope it clears up the point I was making in that worldwide popularity wise, Iron Fist is more likely to have an invested fanbase coming in than Connor Hawks. Yes? Not based on how you or I feel about him, but based on things like the number of solo series they have and the like.

Rhetorical feelings about fighting supremacists on the battlefield of Netflix casting decisions just feels like some kind of annoying sjw type input.

I ain't saying give Marvel an award for representation, just maybe tone down the rabble rousing. Or redirect it. Like, there's 0 people protesting High Castle...

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Dude, isn't America predominantly Caucasian?


62.6 caucasians in the US, which still makes them the majority, but it's a bit more diverse than one would assume.

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I completely agree. I hate it when they change the race of a character for the sole purpose of being PC. Just stick to the source material.

I wouldn't want Blade to suddenly be a white, asian or hispanic guy. Same with the gunslinger. He should have been white. Idris Elba is a fantastic actor, but he should have never been cast as the gunslinger, nor should he ever become James Bond. James Bond is white. There is no need to change his race.

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Hmm, Roland as black took some getting used to, but I like Elba for the role. It majorly changes some dynamics of the story, but from what I can tell they're not doing a Peter Jackson level of faithfulness to the books anyways. It seems like at least books 1 and 2, maybe even 3, will be in the movie.

James Bond I have no problem with being black, but I tend to view the name "James Bond" as being as much a codename as "007". I mean, I'm no spy, but I'm pretty sure a real spy doesn't go around telling everyone he meets his real name, especially not the main villain he's after. I know the character is suppose to be all "James Bond doesn't even care", but really, are you gonna use your real name with the big bad, AND with your local utilities?

Tommy... how's the peeping?

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Ian Fleming decided that James Bond was a white British spy. Why change his race? What would be the purpose? Changing a characters race for the sole purpose of being PC is completely unnecessary.

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Except I don't give a rat's ass about being PC, and never even implied that. I said I have no problem with Bond being black, and I already explained my rationale, which has nothing to do with any BS PC stuff.

Also, Bond was never written as Scottish either, y'know.

Tommy... how's the peeping?

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I didn't say that you wanted him to be black for the purpose of being PC. I asked why it would be neccesarry to change his race. His creator chose to make him a certain way. What would be the purpose of not sticking to the source material? All these unneseccary race changes are being made because the companies want to be PC. It's no coincidence that all those race changes started after america got a black president.

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Again, I never said necessary, but it can be explicable. Using my reasons, one could say the source character Ian Fleming wrote may have been white and had the code name "James Bond", but the code name itself doesn't necessarily have to be white.

Tommy... how's the peeping?

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Except James Bond isn't a code name. Why change the race of an already existing character? Why not create a new character with a different race? He or she could even exist in the same universe, but have a different 00 number. We've seen other 00's in the past. This would be much better than changing James Bond's race.

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Ok, you're making me repeat myself twice here, I already said that I explained my rationale for having no problem with making James Bond black.

And for the second repetition, since you can't seem to read, I'll repost the paragraph where I explained my rationale;

James Bond I have no problem with being black, but I tend to view the name "James Bond" as being as much a codename as "007". I mean, I'm no spy, but I'm pretty sure a real spy doesn't go around telling everyone he meets his real name, especially not the main villain he's after. I know the character is suppose to be all "James Bond doesn't even care", but really, are you gonna use your real name with the big bad, AND with your local utilities?


"James Bond" is a name to remember, rather than trying to remember new aliases all the time. Likewise you also can't go around introducing yourself as "Seven.... Double O'Seven".

Tommy... how's the peeping?

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If you'd bother to read my comment instead of accusing me of being unable to read, then you would have seen that I said that James Bond ISN'T a code name. It is his REAL name. 007 is his code name. I don't know where you got the idiotic idea from that James Bond is also a code name, but you're wrong.

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I did read your comment and saw that you said that. I never said it was a fact that "James Bond" is a code name. That's where me accusing you of being unable to read comes from. I said;

I tend to view the name "James Bond" as being as much a codename as "007"


Also, not having read the books, was it ever explicitly stated that it IS his real name, given to him at birth?

Tommy... how's the peeping?

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Yes, according to the books James Bond is his real name.

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how about a little person? can we get a little person iron fist?

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Perhaps even a little person, in a wheel-chair, who is transgendered, who isn't Asian but identifies as Asian! Check all the SJW boxes so all of them are happy (like that would ever happen).

The action scenes would be...interesting.

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Hey, I have severe depression and your reference to "happiness" triggers me!

Tommy... how's the peeping?

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When the race bending took place for a character that was NOT a white male character there was far less outrage (Think: Electra, Iris West, Sunspot, Terry Fitzgerald of the Spawn film, Alicia Masters of the F4 movies from ahwile back....hell Sue Storm of those same F4 movies considering Jessica Alba ain't exactly white).


Man, you really haven't been paying attention to the internet if you think that's the case. I mean you've paid so little attention as to be functionally ignorant on the matter to the point of needing to shut the *beep* up until you do some more research.

As for Danny Rand being a white guy, it could be important. Or they could have cast anyone. It really depends on what angle they're going with. If they're going with the old, original themes, then he pretty much has to be a rich white guy, since they were all about him realizing the benefits his wealth and color provided, especially when contrasted with the life of Cage.

If they aren't planning on exploring those themes, then *beep* it, they could have cast anyone. Though I find it interesting that the article writer is upset that they didn't cast an Asian-American. Why would it have to be an Asian-American? I'm all for more diverse casting and calling people on hypocrisy, but if you're going to do so, you should take more effort to examine your own hypocrisy while doing so.


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WORDS MEAN THINGS! Also, before you come to bitch about a plot hole, rewatch the show/movie.

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