The OT didn't need a Mary Sue
Just saying.
shareThat's because the OT had a little thing called "good writing"
What Disney doesn't understand is that a hero isn't interesting unless they provide a reason for us to care about them and sympathize with them. Not only is MaRey Sue beyond unlikeable due to her snotty, know it all attitude, but she barely faces any challenges throughout the trilogy so there is little suspense or engagement. When she battles Kyle in TROS I know damn well she is not going to lose, she already defeated him before she even knew she had the force.
If the OT had good writing then so did the sequels because it's basically the same story.
Rey was as sympathetic a character as Luke. Perhaps even more so because even though they were both orphans Luke at least was brought up by his Uncle and Aunt whereas Rey had no-one.
Rey barely faces any challenges throughout the trilogy !? You are a moron.
When Rey had the lightsaber fight with Kylo Ren in TROS he beat her easily and could have killed her but he didn't want to. It was only when Leia distracted him that Rey ran him through. And in case you had forgotten Rey called on the Force to beat the wounded Kylo Ren in their first lightsaber fight in TFA.
The ST had good writing??? WTF is wrong with you?
Rey is sympathetic? First of all there’s barely anything about her to feel sorry for considering she faces barely any challenges and never fails at anything. Being an orphan doesn’t make you sympathetic automatically, you still have to flesh out the character and give the audience a reason to feel sorry for her.
Yes she barely faces any challenges throughout the trilogy, she is good at everything she attempts, everyone loves her and she outperforms established characters with no explanation, she is a Mary Sue.
HAHAHAHAHA you are really reaching here, just because you have the force doesn’t mean you are automatically good at it, you still have to practice, you still have to train and Rey even standing a chance against Kylo the first time she even touches a lightsaber is bad writing at its worst. She never should have been able to stand a chance against him and I don’t care if Kylo had to fight with one arm tied behind his back.
Rey always makes the right decisions, she never gives into anger, jealousy, hate, vengeance, etc., everyone loves her, she does everything perfectly, she is a flawless, virtuous Mary Sue and she is the epitome of a weak character. But of course we all know why Rey is like this: It’s because she’s what Kathleen Kennedy wishes the world saw her as.
I wrote a draft of how the ST should have been and Rey would have been Luke’s student, she wasn’t as advanced as Kylo but when Kylo turns to the dark side and Luke ends up out of commission for part of the movie she all of a sudden has to step up and take on a role that she wasn’t ready for, but as the trilogy progresses she becomes better at the force and can eventually hold her own against Kylo because she worked hard and the writing would have let us see her progression from a young, naive, inexperienced and vulnerable Jedi Student to someone who can actually hold their own against an experienced force user.
But instead Rey isn’t allowed to overcome any hardships or adversity because that’s just not allowed anymore.
shareYour not good at comprehending what people actually say are you ?
If the OT had good writing then so did the sequels because it's basically the same story.
Rey is sympathetic? First of all there’s barely anything about her to feel sorry for considering she faces barely any challenges and never fails at anything. Being an orphan doesn’t make you sympathetic automatically, you still have to flesh out the character and give the audience a reason to feel sorry for her.
HAHAHAHAHA you are really reaching here, just because you have the force doesn’t mean you are automatically good at it, you still have to practice, you still have to train and Rey even standing a chance against Kylo the first time she even touches a lightsaber is bad writing at its worst. She never should have been able to stand a chance against him and I don’t care if Kylo had to fight with one arm tied behind his back.
Continued...
The only reason that Rey beat Kylo Ren in their first lightsaber fight ( apart from her outstanding physical fitness and strength ) was because Kylo Ren had already been wounded several times before he started fighting Rey. He was visibly getting weaker and in the end he was reeling from exhaustion. By saying " I don't care if Kylo had to fight with one arm tied behind his back." You are admitting that you don't care about facts.
Rey always makes the right decisions, she never gives into anger, jealousy, hate, vengeance, etc., everyone loves her, she does everything perfectly, she is a flawless, virtuous Mary Sue and she is the epitome of a weak character. But of course we all know why Rey is like this: It’s because she’s what Kathleen Kennedy wishes the world saw her as.
"Like when she ran away in fright in TFA or when she went to Kylo Ren because she was sure she could turn him to the Light ? Or when Kylo Ren fought her to an exhausted, beaten standstill in TROS ? You are full of it."
LOL so running away into a forest constitutes a wrong decision when compared to Luke rushing off to face Vader when he wasn't ready. Hell if she hadn't ran away then FINN wouldn't have gone after her, that means they wouldn't have disabled the shields and they wouldn't have destroyed Death Star III, I mean Starkiller Base, so even her "mistake" ends up being the right decision. And if she hadn't gone to Kylo Ren then he wouldn't have killed Snoke and that would mean the Rebellion, I mean Resistance would have had 2 badass force users (or 3???) to go up against. You are so full of it.
Saying that Luke and Rey's character developments (or lack of character developments) are anywhere near the same level is one of the most dishonest false equivalences that has ever been perpetuated.
It is pointless talking to you. You just ignore everything I say and respond by spewing out your " Luke is great ! Rey sucks ! " rubbish.
I’ll take that as your concession, and yes Luke is great, Rey does suck.
I’ve noticed snowflakes when they can’t debate the subject try to weasel their way out of the discussion by saying “you’re just a troll, you’re not worth my time, wah, wah, wah”. It’s pretty pathetic.
"So I never said the ST had good writing. You just leapt to the conclusion that I said that so you could go on your automatic anti Rey rant."
Except the OT did have good writing so therefore you did say the ST did. And just recycling the same story of a movie that was well written doesn't constitute good writing, you still have to flesh out the characters which the ST did not.
"No being an orphan doesn't make them automatically sympathetic. Luke was brought up by his Uncle and Aunt so he gets no sympathy for being an orphan. Rey was on her own so she does get sympathy for being an orphan."
As stated above you still have to flesh out the characters, you still have to give the audience a reason to care about them, just having them be on their own doesn't constitute "character development".
Luke is a well fleshed out character, we understood who he was, what he believed in, what his personality was, his flaws, his strengths and what he needed to do to progress as a character. Rey on the other hand all we know about her is that she wants to know who her parents are which is beyond weak. On top of that she's beyond unlikeable, she constantly puts other people down including established character (like Han Solo) for not being as skilled as she is even though she didn't earn any of the achievements the movie keeps giving her.
"As Rey said to Luke in TLJ "something has always been there". Kylo Ren said "she is strong with the Force". Rey was a Dyad in the Force Luke was not. And although Rey had no prior experience with a lightsaber ( and God did it show with those repeated useless forward thrusts ) she was very good at fighting with her long staff so she had skills that would have helped her."
As we know from Episodes I-VI to be competent in a lightsaber battle you have to be competent with the force, it's why Anakin lost to Dooku, why Luke lost to Vader, etc. Being able to whip around a staff a little bit doesn't translate to being able to defeat a skilled force user the day you find out you even have the force. Luke knew he had had the force for years in ESB and yet we still see him struggle and fail with it. We never got that degree of struggle from Rey, I don't care if Chewie had shot off Kylo's dominant arm, he still should have been able to defeat her. Vader still kicked Luke's ass in ESB while fighting one handed most of the time and Luke had had far more training than Rey did. There is no logical reason why she should be that good with the force the day she picked up a lightsaber for the first time and found out she had the force. Hell even QuiGon wasn't perfect with Jedi Mind Tricks yet Rey is able to do it perfectly when she doesn't even realize what she's doing.
Rey is a weak character a poorly written character and a Mary Sue. The reason we got invested in Luke Skywalker is because he was realistic, he had character flaws, he made mistakes, he didn't always succeed that made him relatable and interesting. The same cannot be said for Rey, she was just a self insert character for Kathleen Kennedy and that's how she wishes the world viewed her. It's utterly pathetic.
He beat her easy? She held her own quite well I thought
shareBut it got one anyway. Just saying.
Oh, shut up, you tart!
Typical Mary Sewers, they can dish it out but they can't take it !
Oh, I've had enough of you. Ignored as of now.
The old “well Luke was a Mary Sue also” defense has not only been debunked countless times since 2015 but even people who like TFA seem to have stopped using that as an excuse. Quasimodo is not only a full fledged idiot but he never even got the memo from TFA fanboys (I guess Quasimodo isn’t important enough)
shareMaking up bullshit and agreeing with your sock puppets about it might be convincing in the asylum you live in but not anywhere else.
Lol there you go again acting like a snowflake. It’s just impossible that more than one person could possibly disagree with you so they have to be “sock puppets”. Go cry into your mothers tits you crybaby snowflake.
shareHey AMJF, how much do you want to bet that Quasimodo is a huge fan of Home Sweet Home Alone???
shareLuke is not a Mary Sue, Luke actually had to work to get to where he ended up and even then he faced struggles, challenges and failure. The same cannot be said for Rey because she is just the Kathleen Kennedy insert character and represents what Kathleen Kennedy wishes she was.
shareWho was the Mary Sue in the OT?
shareAbuse the Farce Puke !
Huh? Luke, a Mary Sue? The guy that needed Obi-Wan and Han's help to blow up the Death Star? The guy that took years of training and three movies before he could even stand up to Vader, let alone beat him? Only to have to rely on Vader to kill Palpatine anyway? That Luke?
shareYep that Luke ! The guy who became a Jedi after a handful of unsatisfactory lessons from Yoda that he failed. The guy who learned to use the Force after five minutes of being zapped by a floating ball and being told to " Use the Force Luke ! " by Obi-Wan, twice. The guy who became the lead fighter pilot of the Resistance overnight despite having no prior experience in flying a fighter. Yep that Luke !
He couldn’t become a Jedi until after he beat Vader, that's what Yoda said. Luke lost miserably in their first fight, and it wasn't until after that that Luke started taking Yoda's training regimen seriously, on top of the rudimentary training Obi-Wan left for him after A New Hope.
Obi-Wan was guiding him, while Han was getting Vader off his back. Without either of them, Luke would've been shot down and killed before he got a chance to fire the missiles.
Luke didn't become a lead fighter pilot of the Rebel Alliance overnight. He's flown before on Tatooine and was training to become a pilot along with his friends, and his skills were average at best during the Battle of Yavin. And throughout the OT, the Rebel's ace pilot was Wedge Antilles, not Luke.
You sure you watched the same Star Wars movies as everyone else?
Exactly and even though Luke was the one who destroyed the Death Star he never would have been in position to if it hadn’t been for Han, Obi-Wan, and the other Rebel Pilot. If this had been Rey she would have been able to blow it up by herself and then she would criticize everyone else for being incompetent.
You also bring up a great point, Luke was average at best as a pilot and he even needed to be saved by Wedge at some point during the battle, he wasn’t flawless, and he wasn’t even the best pilot, Wedge, Biggs, Red Leader, etc. were clearly better than he was.
This whole “well Luke was a Mary Sue also, wah, wah, wah” argument is beyond pathetic not to mention it is the mother of false equivalences.
Luke never beat Darth Vader and was never likely to beat Darth Vader. It was Palpatine who mortally wounded Vader. It is an example of poor writing that Yoda even suggested that Luke should be required to kill someone who was much stronger than he would ever be. Maybe Yoda was trying to get Luke killed, he clearly didn't like him.
Luke never got any more training after the first few lessons that he bailed out on and failed at. When he went back to Yoda he was old and dying and wouldn't give Luke any more lessons.
Obi-Wan died half way through the first film. Giving Luke five minutes with the floating zap ball and telling him " Use the Force Luke " is not "guiding him".
Luke had no experience flying fighters. Land speeders are not fighters. Luke did become the lead fighter pilot of the Resistance overnight. You are just desperately casting around for anything to deny the fact that if Rey was a Mary Sue then so was Luke.
LOL, so it's poor writing for a weaker character to overcome the odds and defeat someone more powerful than he was? So I'm guessing it was poor writing to have Rocky beat Apollo Creed? Or Samwise to defeat Shelob? Or Batman to defeat Bane? What the hell are you smoking? No one ever said that a weaker character couldn't defeat a more powerful character (that's a strawman on your part), but it should take some actual effort and we should actually see the characters growth as he becomes strong enough to be able to defeat the more powerful character. We got that with Luke, we didn't with Rey.
Ah yes the whole "Luke didn't get that much training", well first of all we did see him train, secondly there is no way that what we saw was the only training he got. Even after he trained he got his ass handed to him by Vader, and then even at the end of ROTJ he only defeated Vader because he tapped into the dark side and even after that Anakin had to save him from the Emperor. Rey did far more than that with less training, less work, and less character development, and for the record having her snatch the victory out of Anakin Skywalker's hands is probably the biggest insult the movie could have given us. BTW I always did have a problem with Luke going back to Yoda and Yoda says you don't need any more training, I know there is an explanation that wasn't covered in the film (that him being able to resist the dark side was sufficient training) but regardless of that he had far more training than Rey did and even if Luke didn't have sufficient training that wouldn't magically make Rey a better character, shit for brains.
Watch the Trench Attack again you idiot, Obi-Wan was clearly helping Luke he told him what to do and helped him tap into the force so he could destroy the death star, this isn't speculation, it's in the movie, he was helping him as did Han, Wedge, Biggs, Red Leader, etc. Also you again make a false assumption that the two minutes of Luke training on the Falcon is the only training he did only a mentally incompetent nincompoop or a biased troll would assume that.
"Luke had no experience flying fighters. Land speeders are not fighters. Luke did become the lead fighter pilot of the Resistance overnight"
Again it was firmly established that Luke was a PILOT. Obi-Wan: "And I understand you've become quite the great pilot yourself", and Biggs even confirmed to Red Leader than Luke was able to handle the X-Wing. Hell when we first met Luke he was ready to apply for the Imperial Academy meaning he had to have been at least somewhat competent at flying. However Rey actually did tell FINN she had never flown before which again emphasizes that your Luke vs. Rey comparison is false equivalence. Luke was also not the "lead pilot of the REBELLION" until ESB which took place years after ANH, again you show that you don't even understand the movie you are trying to trash. Luke was a somewhat well fleshed out character (not perfect but good enough), Rey was not, she was a bland, boring, underwritten Mary Sue.
Are you trolling me or are you really this stupid?
In addition to what MovieChatUser497 said, T-16 Skyhoppers are airspeeders, not landspeeders. They were known to have similar controls to X-Wings, and were used as training vehicles to prepare new X-Wing pilots. This is true for both the Legends Canon and Disney Canon. A quick search will prove this.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/T-16_skyhopper
Flying airspeeders to simulate space-flight is not that much different than real-life astronauts using diving suits and moving under-water to simulate space movement.
So yes, Luke does have experience and training, and he has flown before. We have on-screen dialogue and lore to confirm that. It's naive to assume that the only time he spent training was onscreen, for flying or for Jedi stuff, when evidence allows us to infer otherwise. The OT spans 3-4 years, he's definitely spent more than just a few minutes Jedi-training with Obi-Wan and Yoda, and clearly he's trained as a pilot before the Battle of Yavin.
Rey, on the other hand, was shown starting with a limited skill set, without even so much as throw-away dialogue to suggest she learned various skills before Force Awakens started. There was no reason to infer that she could do most of the things she did without prior set-up first, especially when she admitted that she hadn't flown much before and knew nothing about the force. Therefore, she's a Mary Sue.
Luke blows up the Death Star using the Force - after never having that ability before - his first time piloting a ship. You people are hypocrites.
share"his first time piloting a ship"
Um, did you listen to the dialogue?
"Who's going to fly us there? You?"
"You bet I could, I'm not such a bad pilot myself."
"I used to bullseye womp-rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two metres."
Did YOU? T-16 is a speeder. Luke never left Tatooine before that, let alone flew a ship.
shareT-16 is an airspeeder and very similar to the T65 X-Wing which he flew at Yavin as a support fighter.
Couldn't save his friend and would have been dead if it wasn't for Han at the last second. Not to mention needed help from Obi Wan from LITERALLY BEYOND THE GRAVE to make the shot.
You never raised any of these points for 40 years lol. The only loser backed into a corner is you.
Stick to bypassing compressors moron.
Yes, we already established Luke blows up the Death Star using the Force to guide a missle his first time piloting a ship. Very good, Skippy.
"You never raised any of these points for 40 years lol."
"Stick to bypassing compressors moron."
.....what?
You prove to me that's it's not a DEFLECTION to Luke by showing us where you claimed Luke was a Mary Sue in the almost 40 years between ANH and TFA. You said nothing of the sort before TFA was released.
You have no possibility to defend against Rey being a Mary Sue so you are trying to deflect and you've been proven wrong for 1 millionth time like the GRUB you are.
Problem for you is we are talking about REY, not Luke - try to stay on message next time.
The funny thing is the only thing worse than Rey's character writing is the way she is acted by Ridley.
You are demented. Or a troll. And that goes for your sock puppets as well.
Triplea, Quasimodo is utterly pathetic, his premise is riddled with false assumptions and logical fallacies. It makes him feel good to defend Rey no matter how little sense it makes. Yes Rey is a Mary Sue and apparently he's stupid enough to think that by trashing Luke it somehow makes Rey a better character. He's a crybaby snowflake and he needs to see a therapist.
shareFinn: We need a pilot !
Rey: We've got one !
Rey was a mechanic and a pilot. She worked on Plutt's ships and flew them.
Stick to bypassing compressors moron.
She wasn't a mechanic, she was a scavenger. Rey even notes that it was the first time she had flied like that after she excitedly celebrates her awesomeness with Finn after they escape the Ties.
You just pointed out how absurd the script is as that dialog is pathetically laughable.
Such lazy, incompetent writers behind this film. Clearly not qualified and absolutely not talented to the level required for Star Wars.
If Rey wasn't a mechanic what was she doing working on the Millenium Falcon and fixing things like a mechanic ?
Yes the Star Wars films are underwritten and often don't make sense. They are popcorn bums-on-seats films not meticulously researched documentaries.
She was never a mechanic and was not referred to as one either, only a scavenger.
Her being able to fix the Falcon like a mechanic is a classic example of WHY she is a Mary Sue ... Lol you're a little behind the curve im afraid.
You can't rationalize with Lucas Loyalists.
shareWrong, DUMBASS. Luke was a PILOT, he told Han when he met him...
https://youtu.be/bosSsgzgenA?t=68
And Finn told Rey he was with the Resistance...
Except we the audience know that FINN is NOT with the resistance, also based on what we see Luke do later in the movie that is enough for us to know that he was telling the truth when he told Han he was a pilot. Epic fail, junior.
Damn you love deflecting to try to justify your poorly thought out and fallacious premise. The logical fallacies are strong with you.
Oh I see when Luke says he's a pilot that's the gospel truth but when Rey says she's a pilot that's an outrageous lie. Speaking of epic fails try looking in a mirror moron.
Lol Rey said she had never flown before you idiot. And it’s not just Luke saying so, Biggs even confirmed he was a pilot and told Red Leader that he was more than capable of handling the X wing. If we are not to believe the characters in the movie there needs to be a reason to not believe them. It was established that FINN was not with the rebellion , I mean resistance so when he says he was we the audience know he isn’t. The same cannot be said with Luke being able to fly. Everything we are shown indicates he can. If it makes you feel better I could buy Poe being a good pilot , we know he’s been in the rebellion, I mean resistance for a while, and we see him being able to pull off impressive moves.
Also we are talking about Rey, NOT Luke. Luke being a Mary Sue (which he clearly isn't) doesn't automatically solve all of the problems with the way Rey was written.
No wonder you’re confused you don’t even understand the movie. And saying that Rey and Luke are equally underwritten characters is the most dishonest false equivalence I have ever heard of.
I can't believe this stupid 'Rey is not a Mary Sue' argument is still going on.
Honestly, she earns a living selling scavenged parts from scuttled Star Destoyers. She obviously doesn't know what happened to them; if she did she's know about the Millenium Falcon literally on her own doorstep. Apparently it hasn't flown for 10 years but when it's time to flee, somehow she knows every switch to flick and every lever to pull to power it up and take off, piloting it through far too many dangerous moves. Later on she even knows how to fix the hyperdrive system and the first planet she arrives at she exclaims, 'I didn't imagine so much greenery in the entire galaxy' or words to that effect.
Seriously, she knows how to repair it and fly it yet has never been anywhere in it. She's a walking McGuffin to the movie, more of a prop rather than a character.
Why do you losers get so mad over facts?
shareYou clearly didn't understand Star Wars 1977, it was nominated for Best Picture at the Oscars unlike the Disney SHEquel travesty.
shareI completely agree with you, Quasimodo doesn't understand Star Wars, the fact that it was clearly established that Luke knew how to fly when completely over his head which makes it quite odd that he would trash Luke's character when he doesn't even understand him.
shareNot even close, first of all Luke needed help from Han Solo, Obi-Wan and the other Rebel Pilots to even get into position to be able to destroy the Death Star, secondly it took some actual effort and it wasn’t blatantly obvious that he was going to succeed before the battle even started, finally he was barely able to do it, it took actual effort and the same cannot be said for Rey’s “accomplishments”
shareIn retrospect, this was one of the lesser issues of the sequel trilogy.
shareIndeed. Had the sequel trilogy been written from start to middle to end by Timothy Zahn or Kevin J Anderson, with approval and input from George Lucas, we would have had a fascinating, coherent, intriguing story with strong well developed characters.
share...we would have had a fascinating, coherent, intriguing story with strong well developed characters.
The opposite. George Lucas writing the trilogy with Timothy Zahn input. Zahn can expand on Lucas' concepts, but not deliver entirely new ones. Lucas already wrote something which Disney bought. He needed to finish HIS story. Lucas also had a good eye for visuals. His movie art was always top-notch.
Unfortunately, Disney just wants to rehash the OT ad nauseum.
"approval and input from George Lucas, we would have had a fascinating, coherent, intriguing story with strong well developed characters."
LOL!!! Lucas hasn't made anything good since the 80s. The prequels are trash and the Special Editions were foreshadowing of how bad they were going to be. Lucas lost his talent and passion long ago.
I respectfully disagree.
The prequels were never supposed to be a repeat of the OT which is what most fans wanted, I suppose.
The OT was a simple good guy vs bad guy popcorn movie to address the malaise that Americans suffered from because of Watergate and Vietnam. We needed clear heroes. Lucas also experimented with SFX.
The PT was addressing how democracies become tyrannies which addressed the politics at the time under Bush re: spying on citizens, etc. It wasn't meant to be a popcorn film, but much darker with heroes no longer clearly defined. Lucas was experimenting with CGI and digital filmmaking.
Both trilogies were experimental films!
With the ST, Lucas would have given us something new to reflect on. Not a rehash.
That does it!
Kuato, you are an IDIOT and a ST Lover and I will spend no more of my time on you and your OT/PT and Lucas Bashing.
WELCOME TO IGNORE!
THE SOCK PUPPET HAS SPOKEN !
AMJF, I agree with you that ST lovers are somewhat sub-human and aren't worthy of our attention but at the same time putting them in their places is beyond entertaining.
shareAgreed. I think Lucas' ideas combined with more talented (and restrained) writers could have led to more interesting world-building and compelling character arcs. Even if Abrams had had a plan for all three movies as he's now admitted that they did not, I still think we would have found the results lacking over the course of the new trilogy.
shareAll these guys did was basically remake the original trilogy with the addition of new characters. Why be original when you can play it safe and still make loads of money ? It stinks of course but that's Hollywood.
Luke is a Mary Sue.
shareYour misandry is showing.
shareLuke is absolutely Mary Sue in the first movie. It burns your asshole so much when people point that out and it's hilarious.
shareYou clearly didn't understand Star Wars 1977, it was nominated for Best Picture at the Oscars unlike the Disney SHEquel travesty.
shareYour misogyny is showing.
Yes, the sequel trilogy sucked. But, not because a female starred in it. It sucked because Disney only wanted to rehash the OT and hired a bunch of no talent hacks.
I thought all the actors were fine. They just didn't have a script or coherant story.
LOL if we just hated “strong female characters” then we would have complained about Leia, Palme, Sarah Connor, Ellen Ripply, etc. Except we don’t because they were actually well written and their abilities made sense. Rey’s do not.
shareMary Sue is a gender neutral term; saying it is not sexist at all.
No-one cares that there is a female lead. People care because the writing behind rey SUCKS. The term Mary Sue is a literary criticism as you likely know.
Exactly and if we just hated "strong female characters" then we would have been bitching about Ellen Ripley for the past 3 decades, but we didn't because she was a well written strong female character. Rey is not.
shareYou don’t even understand Luke Skywalker or what a Mary Sue even is. Just because you succeed that doesn’t make you a Mary Sue. You are a Mary Sue when you flawlessly and effortless do things that you realistically shouldn’t be able to and there is little to no explanation, you also outperform established characters (Luke, Han, Kylo) with little to no explanation. Luke was NOT a Mary Sue, Anakin was DEFINITELY NOT a Mary Sue, Rey is a Mary Sue.
share"You are a Mary Sue when you flawlessly and effortless do things that you realistically shouldn’t be able to and there is little to no explanation, you also outperform established characters"
Kind likes this:
1. Never flew a space craft.
2. Never used the force.
3. Guided a torpedo using the Force and blew up the Death Star the first time he flew in space.
"Luke was NOT a Mary Sue, Anakin was DEFINITELY NOT a Mary Sue, Rey is a Mary Sue."
This is how a child makes a point.
1. It was established that he did know how to fly a space craft and Biggs even confirmed this to Red Leader (yes that scene is canon because it is on George Lucas's preferred cut of the film)
2. He has used the force before, Obi Wan taught him on the Falcon and Obi-Wan also helped him during the trench run. Granted Luke is still in the early stages of learning to become a force user but to say he never used the force before is a lie.
3. Again he knew how to fly and he never would have been in a position to destroy the Death Star had it not been for Han, Obi-Wan, Biggs, Wedge, Red Leader, etc. Rey would have been able to do it all on her own and it would have been a walk in the park for her, then she would have talked down to everyone else for not being as good as she is.
Also we don’t necessarily need to see extended training sequences, as long as the filmmakers are able to set up a logical reason why the character is good at what they do then that is sufficient, kind of like how we never saw Bane train yet we understand perfectly why he is such a badass. By the time ROTJ came around we understood why Luke was competent with the force, we saw his progression from Point A to Point C. The same cannot be said for Rey, she is just good at things because she’s awesome, because she’s Space Jesus or whatever, because she’s a Mary Sue. When the character doesn’t make any mistakes, doesn’t fail at anything, is able to do ridiculously difficult things with no effort it makes them boring and bland and that’s exactly what Rey is. Not knowing who her parents are and being by herself on a desert planet isn’t sufficient character development. 4 minutes after we met Luke we knew far more about him than we ever found out about Rey, we know that 1) He has a strained relationship with his Uncle, 2) That he’s kind of a brat, 3) That he doesn’t like it on Tatooine and wants a better life, 4) That he doesn’t like being a moisture farmer, etc.
LOL, and yet I clearly said far more than "Luke was not a Mary Sue......", clearly you lack proper Reading Comprehension skills or you are intentionally being dishonest.
Luke flew a speeder stop lying.
And he went from deflecting a few shots from a training droid to moving a torpedo in an hour.
Sit down, you silly little man.
Obi Wan Kenobi: “And I understand you’ve become quite the good PILOT yourself”
Luke: “You bet I could you know I’m not such a bad PILOT”
Seeing him fly “a little speeder” doesn’t mean he never flew anything bigger, you idiot. Also it was quite clear that Luke was far from the best pilot in the fleet, he still needed to be saved by Wedge and he made mistakes and got into trouble during the space battle. Rey on the other hand flew the falcon FLAWLESSLY the very first time she even flew. You need to can it with your false equivalences because they are utterly pathetic as are your nonsensical defenses of this trash movie and this poorly written character.
As I said before you idiot, Obi-Wan helped him and told him what to do so he could blow the torpedoes down the exhaust port. He didn’t do it by himself, he also didn’t do it 5 minutes after he found out he had the force. Also I’ll say this again: POINTING OUT FLAWS IN LUKE SKYWALKER DOESN’T MAKE REY A BETTER CHARACTER!!!!
Quit embarrassing yourself, little boy. Your entire premise is based on A) Lies and B) An inability to even understand the movie.
Also as I effectively pointed out earlier: Pointing out made up flaws in Luke Skywalker doesn’t magically make Rey a good character. At the very best all you would have done is point out flaws in Luke Skywalker (who I also never said was flawless).
shareYour argument is weak.
Poster AMJF made excellent points. Luke didn't know how to fly, but saves the day by suddenly knowing how to fly a high-powered X-Wing. And better than seasoned pilots including his best friend Biggs who went to flight school. Give me a break!
Rey and Luke are both Mary Sues.
Correction:
Poster kuatorises is the one who made excellent points. Not AMJF.
You clearly didn't understand Star Wars 1977, NEWB.
shareI waited on line for 3 hours to see it in the theater in '77, newbie.
shareYou're just yelling at people now. "yoU DiDn'T uNdeRsTanD 1977 STaR wArs!" You're doing it because you can't make a coherent counter point to them both being Mary Sues. I bet money your a Trumper. This is a classic tactic of his supporters.
shareTake your "L" and walk away, dumbass.
shareYou totally owned kuatorises. These people who claim “well Luke was a Mary Sue also” don’t have the first clue what they are talking about and that claim is demonstrably false. They are just making excuses for a poorly written and bland character by deflecting to another character (which ironically doesn’t make Rey any more likable)
shareYeah, these idiots think if they just keep arguing after they've been proven wrong, it will look like they didn't lose the argument.
shareThey are snowflakes, and snowflakes typically come from very sheltered and privileged lives where no one ever stands up to them and tells them they are wrong, so when they get into the real world and they realize that not everyone has to accept their bullshit they throw a temper tantrum.
It’s also a logical fallacy to say that Rey is somehow a good character if they can somehow prove Luke was a bad character. All they would have done is prove Luke was a bad character (which they haven’t), that doesn’t magically make Rey a good character.
Actually it was established earlier that Luke did know how to fly, but that’s not what makes him not a Mary Sue. Him destroying the Death Star wasn’t something he did on his own, he needed help from the other Rebel Pilots, Han and Obi-Wan, if they didn’t help him then Luke never would have been in the position to destroy the Death Star in the first place, along with that it actually took some damn effort, Rey would have made the whole thing look easy and she would have been able to do it all on her own.
Rey is a Mary Sue, Luke is the furthest thing from a Mary Sue. Luke was well written and had an interesting Heroes Journey, Rey did not.
EDIT: Also FYI, claiming that I just “hate strong women” or that I’m sexist is not only baseless but it’s also a very cowardly thing to do. You can’t defend your position so you just play the gender card. If I had a problem with “strong women” I would have been complaining a long time ago about Leia and other badass women throughout pop culture who unlike Rey were actually well written.
Apples and oranges. Huge difference between flying a crappy hick plane in a backwater location and a 1st rate military space vehicle.
I'm not defending the ST writing. I'm just saying Luke is a Mary Sue, too. Not as extreme, but still Mary Sue.
Except you have no idea what kind of plane Luke flew on Tatooine, and even then it wouldn’t matter if he had never flown an X-wing before, he was far from the best pilot in the squad while Rey was an expert and pulling off moves far better than anyone in the Rebellion the first time she ever flew.
Luke is nothing like a Mary Sue, Rey is the epitome of a Mary Sue.
EDIT: I’m sure you can go to some fan website and find out what the planes Luke said he flew looked like and I’m sure they will be less advanced than an X-wing, but there’s a huge problem with that: Proof that he flew a less advanced plane doesn’t mean he never flew a more advanced plane while on the other hand TFA made it abundantly clear that Rey had never flown before.
Now, you're being silly. Luke was a poor hick living on a backwater planet.
X-wing isn't a cheap vehicle flown in Hicksville. It's a high-powered military space vehicle. Big difference.
Stop trying to make him something he's not to fit your narrative.
The novel said Rey knew how to fly.
So poor “hicks” are incapable of flying?
You have no proof that he never flew anything resembling an X-wing. It was established he was a good pilot which is far more character development than we got for Rey.
I’m not, I’m just going by the characterization the movie gave us, something TFA didn’t do for Rey.
Oh so now I have to read a novel for TFA to make sense? Sounds like TFA can’t stand on its own then which makes it a bad movie. I didn't have to read a single book to make sense out of the OT or the Prequels because they were well written. Also the movie said she had never flown before.
"You have no proof that he never flew anything resembling an X-wing."
It's not up to us to prove he didn't, it's up to you to prove he did; and nothing in the movies does that. Luke flew speeders, junior. This is a known fact.
Except you claimed he didn’t so yes it is your burden of proof which you have failed miserably. However there are multiple scenes that show that he is capable of handling an X wing including the scene with Biggs before the attack so it seems I am right and you are not.
Also none of this has anything to do with Rey being a good or bad character you dumbass.
Luke is apparently poor so its implausible ... But rey who is HOMELESS and her being an expert is perfectly ok......
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
I know SJW's are mostly dumbasses but seriously.
Oh and you actually see Luke's T-16 Skyhopper in the movie which is made by the same manufacturer and has a cockpit very similar to the X-Wing he flew as support in Yavin. Not to mention that his prowess is noted several times in the film and he's been training to go to flight academy.
Rey Sue is clearly written by incompetent writers.
If a movie has to rely on a BOOK to impart important details of the plot when the movie doesn't, then they're both badly written.
"Except you have no idea what kind of plane Luke flew on Tatooine"
"I’m sure you can go to some fan website and find out what the planes Luke said he flew looked like "
It's literally stated in the movie, LOL!!!
"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters."
https://youtu.be/l1_NRtylnDY?t=129
And it's a known fact it's a speeder: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/T-16_skyhopper/Legends. Keelai is right, you are comparing something akin to what the Wright Brothers made to a space ship.
No it isn’t you moron, we don’t know that’s the only thing he flew. Me riding a bike doesn’t mean I never drove a car you idiot.
shareYou can't prove Luke flew anything besides speeders...
shareI have shown you multiple lines of dialogues that established him as a competent yet not exceptional pilot. Sure it’s just exposition but it’s at least something to work with, far better than what we got with Rey. You however claim he only flew speeders and you have come nowhere near proving it.
-Luke had flown before, Rey had not
-Luke was not the best pilot in the fleet, Rey pulled out ridiculously complex moves that no one in the OT came anywhere close to pulling off.
-Luke needed help destroying the Death Star and it was clearly a team effort, he never would have been in the position to destroy the Death Star had it not been for Han, Obi-Wan, Biggs, Wedge, Red Leader, etc. Rey piloted the Falcon by herself and was a far better pilot than anyone we had ever seen before THE FIRST TIME SHE FLEW.
Saying that Luke was an equally underwritten character as Rey is beyond disingenuous and a false equivalence.
Also I’ll reiterate: TRASHING LUKE DOESN’T MAKE REY A BETTER CHARACTER!!!!
Oh come on Keelai! You're better than that. "If Rey is a Mary Sue then so is Luke" is just the one of the absolute worst arguments there is for defending the terrible Di$ney trilogy.
shareAre you sure Keelai is better than that? Based on his posting history I think you are giving him too much credit.
And yes I agree, calling Luke a "Mary Sue" is one of the most poorly thought out and fallacious arguments I have ever heard. First of all it's not true, secondly even if he were that wouldn't make Rey any better of a character.
Luke is NOT a Mary Sue because he doesn't outperform established characters and doesn't have any unrealistic abilities, he just happened to be the one in the position to destroy the Death Star. We also get to see him grow, change and mature as a character which makes him interesting and relatable.
Rey however does outperform established characters when she should be able to, nor is there any explanation as to how she's able to do this. We don't see her grow as a character, she was a virtuous, flawless Mary Sue when we met her.
Are you sure Keelai is better than that? Based on his posting history I think you are giving him too much credit.
"White supremacist", LOL, I think you mean "someone who doesn't agree with me"
But whatever, you do you.
Keelai clearly doesn't agree with me on this but to my knowledge isn't a suspected white supremacist either so your litmus test of "someone who doesn't agree with me" does not follow & is ironically an even worse argument than the logic behind claiming Luke is a Mary Sue. I'd say you were better than that argument but all things considered...yeah.... I only bothered mentioning your WS suspect status because you directly responded to my post that wasn't directed at you by questioning the character of another poster so I thought it was only fair to point out how you were perceived yourself. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.
shareSo who are you to be the ultimate decider on what constitutes a "white supremacist" and what doesn't? Please show me the exact quote that made you believe I was a "white supremacist" and I will be happy to set you straight. Keelia on the other hand has made multiple racist comments so obviously your "litmus test" as to what makes someone a "white supremacist" is obviously flawed to say the least. Your cult seems to just call anyone on the opposition a "white supremacist" because you know it's a very brutal smear tactic and it works in intimidating and shaming people to not dare to question your flawed logic.
To be brutally honest, you are the last person who should ever judge anyone's character, I remember you from the politics board now and yeah you are a real piece of work.
I'm glad to see that you at least have something resembling common sense when it comes to Luke Skywalker but to be honest it's not nearly enough to save you from being a flat out horrible person. I hope you take my advice into consideration and I've done all I can do.
Like I said I normally wouldn't have bothered as I feel that going back & forth with individuals with a reputation of being suspected white supremacists is not a productive use of time. Occasional exceptions can be made for people who may be misguided or otherwise mislead but I have no interest in engaging with bad faith actors on the subject. White supremacy has no credibility in public society & is now so universally condemned for the pure evil that it is that white supremacists themselves understand that it's better to publicly deny association with it. There is no person more horrible than a white supremacist & even they know it. Enough said
shareWay to dodge my question: I asked you to show me the exact quote I made that lead you to believe I may be a "white supremacist".
share