Why did KK choose Ruin Johnson to write and direct this shit? - Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion

[–] tom8 (3119) 6 years ago

Kuz Kathleen Kennedy is a kunt

.....😆

anything else i can help you with today?

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

All the previous movies were "woke". The problem is that Johnson isn't a writer. Kennedy isn't a creative nor talented person therefore she doesn't recognize poor writing. Another problem is that Kennedy and Johnson are unaware of the SW story and they didn't care to find out what it was.

Obviously, she's still in charge because she has made Disney billion$$$$.

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

"All the previous movies were "woke"."

Bullshit. Explain your reasoning for that.

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

Where have you been? Keep in mind that I saw SW: A New Hope when it was first released. Also, keep in mind that Lucas is a Liberal and had an important political message in his movies. I'll add historical context and background too.

SW: A New Hope
1) Prior to SW, the norm was to have a weak helpless female character rescued by a male character in movies. Leia was a feminist character. She took over the rescue and was the leader of the resistance. That was revolutionary in 1977. Many articles/commentary about her at the time.

2) There is backstory in the novel which I read at the time. Basically, it says that the evil tyrannical government was once a democracy. It wasn't overthrown. Evil leaders became its politicians and slowly changed it within from a democracy into a totalitarian government. When the people realized they lost their democracy, a rebellion was formed to get it back. In interviews, Lucas warned this is historically how democracies are lost.

3) The Empire also represented Nazi Germany. White human males were at the top of the hierarchy and discriminated against aliens which is why you never see any as officers in the Empire. That latter part was in the novel too.

4) Lucas also created a simple story about good vs. evil that people needed at the time. Watergate and Vietnam war left the country in a funk. Many movies had no real good guys.

SW:Empire
5) Lando was created after protests from the black community re: lack of black characters in the movie.

SW:Return of Jedi
6) Ewoks represented a weaker people able to win over a stronger more tech group. aka Vietnam won over the U.S. Lucas has done interviews about this and why it happens.

SW: prequels
7) Lucas added much more diversity. Strong female characters. Message about anyone can be helpful no matter who they are (Jarjar and Kiddie Anankin).

8) Palpatine was the "democratic" leader who changes the government into a tyranny. see #2.

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

9) That message about collapsed democracies was important because of the politics at that time.

Steve Bannon in an interview said he wanted to get rid of the EU by electing its leaders and changing it from within. Sound familiar? This recently happened in Turkey, Russia, Venezuela and other countries. They morphed into autocracies.

SW:Disney
I think we can both agree that the new stuff is short on story and message.

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Sorry, I think we differ on the definition of "woke":

I'm referring to forced feminism and forced cultural diversity in movies, picking actors based on their gender and skin colour rather than their acting ability, just to meet some diversity quota.

Many movies and TV shows have strong females and ethnic members that can ACT, and flow naturally as part of the story. In the above statement, they do not, and are chosen because of it.

What does "woke" actually mean, if not that?

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

woke wikipedia definition:
Woke as a political term of African American origin refers to a perceived awareness of issues concerning social justice and racial justice.

I'll stick with the formal definition.

It sounds like you only want white males who are only 31% of the American population and less worldwide (and diminishing) to star in films which isn't economically feasible.

Why would you not represent 69% (and growing) of the American population in films?

If you want to talk about SW:Disney writing quality then that's a whole different ballgame. You can't replace a creative (Lucas) with a noncreative (Kennedy, Abrams, Johnson) and have the same quality. A 100% white male SW:Disney would still be crap because Lucas isn't in charge as its creative and quality control leader.

Anyway, I moved on to Game of Thrones and the Orville even though I'm still a fan of SW:Lucas.

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

The thing is A New Hope didn't have to constantly remind the audience that Leia was a strong female character who could hold her own, her actions and character conveyed that message so I didn't have a problem with Leia one bit. Leia was well written and Carrie Fisher gave a great performance (well in the first 2 at least).

The Force Awakens on the other hand takes it WAY TOO far and seems to be more concerned with the audience understanding that she is a strong female character rather than just fleshing her out and allowing her actions to speak for her.

The difference between the two really just boils down to this: Leia was well written, well acted and well executed. Rey was not. Even Padme was a stronger character than MaREY Sue. Also Star Wars fans never had an issue with strong female characters, we have an issue that now it's being forced down our throats that females are strong also (something we never argued) and it seems a strong, compelling story is taking a back seat to what appears to be an agenda.

Same thing with let's say Lando vs. Finn. No one criticized Lando because he was an interesting character and Billy Dee Williams gave a great performance, no one like Finn because he's just annoying and over the top in a bad way (example: DID YOU SEE THAT!!!)

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

I agreed that SW:Disney writing was horrible. The OP's problem appears to be his need to have white males in all the major roles. The movies would still be crap but with white males in it.

That one scene when Leia grabs the gun and announces she will save everyone was more than enough to be shocking and revolutionary at the time. Lucas didn't need to do more.

Everyone loved Lando, but remember his role was due to protests. I recall bigots whining about Finn before the movie was released.

Let's be honest. There is a percentage of people complaining about SW:Disney because they are misogynists and racists. None of the fans I know personally have this problem, but some on the internet do.

If fans treated Lucas better, than he might not have sold the company to Disney. #$@&%*! the fans!

The only "agenda" is to make money.

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

As for the scene where Leia grabbed the gun and said someone "needed to save our skins" the thing is the scene didn't focus on that in excess like they do with Rey and they didn't go out of their way to show that Leia was better than everyone else around her. Rey is clearly better than everyone else around her including established characters like Han Solo and that is why she received the backlash that Leia didn't. If Rey were a guy and was played by Shia LaBeuf I'm sure the fan outrage would be equally as strong. Also what may have helped ANH is again Carrie Fisher is a far better actress than Daisy Ridley.

Are we sure Lando was thrown in there due to protests? I'm not denying that may have been a factor I just haven't seen any evidence.

That is a really a bold statement that people who complain about SW are racists and misogynists, in order to make that statement you would have to know what they are feeling mentally and that is a very difficult burden of proof to meet. Simply not liking a black character or a female character is nowhere near meeting that burden of proof and I am willing to be these same people you speak of didn't have a problem with Leia or Lando. The only way you'd be able to prove this is if someone openly said "I hate Rey, women don't belong in SW" (and they would be contradicting themselves unless they said the same thing about Leia and Padme), or "I can't stand Finn, black people shouldn't be in a SW film" (and again I doubt they made the same comments about Lando or Mace Windu).

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

The trilogy should've focused on Leia, Han and Luke and introduce Rey (Skywalker) as the new character to continue the legacy or just use Lucas ideas.

Remember Disney tossed the entire EU. They have no respect for the franchise.

I'm 100% positive about Lando! I should've used the term complaints instead of protests. I didn't mean to imply people marching with banners. After it was announced that sex symbol Williams was going to be in the next movie, black people were very happy with the casting especially the ladies.

Jackson asked Lucas if he could be in the movie.

Bigotry and misogyny don't work that way. There's nothing rational about it and it's not always obvious. "Get Out" is a great horror movie to watch about how subtle racism can be.

There was plenty of complaining on IMDB boards when people found out a black man was playing a stormtrooper.

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

Can you provide evidence of the complaints about Billy Dee Williams? Also simply not wanting him to be in the movie does not equate to racism, you also have to prove the complaints were because of his race. I personally would not want Chris Tucker to be in a Godfather movie, why? I don't like him as an actor, he seems to be a comedic actor and The Godfather isn't a comedy. Regardless of whether Francis Ford Coppola could make him a convincing actor in a Godfather film is irrelevant, my initial complaints were not due to his skin color, it was based on a prediction that he would not be an appropriate choice for that film.

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

You read the sentence wrong.

Reread it:
"Lando was created after protests from the black community re: lack of black characters in the movie."

There were no black characters in the original SW movie. Many black fans were upset. Lucas hired Williams for the sequel to address the concern in the black community re: to lack of black roles in the first SW movie.

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

OK and I'm sure if Billy Dee Williams gave a poor performance I'm sure he would have received just as much criticism as John Boyega has for his poor portrayal of Finn. The thing is Billy Dee Williams can act circles around John Boyega. How Billy Dee Williams got the role, at this point I don't care, I loved the character of Lando Calrisian and he seems to be a fan favorite.

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

Everyone loves Billy Dee Williams! It was great casting!

I don't have a problem with the new actors. Just the horrible writing. And they killed off the original main characters which was stupid.

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

I wasn't too offended by what they did to Han Solo, but the way they portrayed Luke was beyond bad, that is not Luke Skywalker, the Luke Skywalker I know saw some good in the second most evil man in the entire galaxy. He would not just kill his own nephew in his sleep because he looked at him wrong.

As for Carrie Fisher, I hated her performance in TFA, it wasn't as bad in TLJ but then again we ended up with Flying Mary Poppins Space Leia.

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

Agreed! SW:Disney isn't canon for me.

I'm very sloooowly reading the Thrawn trilogy which I consider the true trilogy.

It was a dumb move to kill off the original beloved characters. Star Wars Galaxy Edge is based on the new disliked characters. Few visitors.
https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2477906/disneyland-reportedly-cut-employees-hours-due-to-low-star-wars-galaxys-edge-attendance

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

I almost think it would have been better IF Disney were going to make Star Wars movies to just set them in the same universe but not have them be continuations of the Lucas films, just have them tell their own stories and let them stand on their own because I swear all of the callbacks to previous films are really getting on my nerves, the fan service/nostalgia is out of control.

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

Disney wanted to recreate the original trilogy environment in the sequel trilogy. Leia and co. are rebels again!

I like the idea of the Old Republic with thousands of Jedi and Sith at war but Disney will muck that up too.

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

Also I can't find any evidence that he was cast to appease people complaining that there were no black characters. (Note: I'm not denying that was the reason, I am stating that I have not seen any evidence for this).

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

I was going by memory of what was going on at that time, but I did find some links.

This column probably went nationwide because it sounds familiar to me. I read several articles about the topic at the time.
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/20382247/the_los_angeles_times/

"There’s a famous story about the first Star Wars film told by filmmaker John Landis, director of Animal House and a close friend to George Lucas. “I remember after George Lucas shot Star Wars in London, he showed it to all of us and I said to him after the screening: ‘George, is everybody in outer space white?’”

Indeed, 1977’s Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope contained an entirely all-white cast... Lucas (sort of) took Landis’s criticism to heart, casting Billy Dee Williams as Lando Calrissian in sequel The Empire Strikes Back."
https://www.thedailybeast.com/star-wars-and-the-fear-of-a-black-planet

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

OK fair enough, I don't accept that there were few black actors in ANH because of racism however I do accept that some people before 1980 did think that.

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

I think with Lucas it was more of an oversight. Something he didn't consciously think about. But, you can't expect millions of black people to pay money and not see themselves represented on the screen.

Similar thing is happening now. Hispanics, Asians, women, etc. want to see themselves on the screen too.

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

I agreed that SW:Disney writing was horrible. The OP's problem appears to be his need to have white males in all the major roles. The movies would still be crap but with white males in it.

You seriously have misunderstood me, that's not what I'm saying at all! Why are you doing this??

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

He's also yet another poster like someone else on this forum who sees everything through the prism of race. No one has a problem with Rey being a woman or Finn being black, we have a problem with the characters being poorly written and portrayed by horrible actors.

reply

[–] moviefanatic505 (6357) 6 years ago

Yet you praise the prequels... Hayden Christensen was worse than anything in the new series.

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

That's just your subjective opinion, also Hayden Christiensen has nothing to do with this discussion, the discussion is whether people have a problem with the new characters because of gender and race, how those characters compare to the characters of the prequels is irrelevant.

reply

[–] moviefanatic505 (6357) 6 years ago

It's also your subjective opinion that Rey and Finn are acted badly and written badly.

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

That's the reason I attack those characters, not because of their skin color/gender which is the entire purpose of this discussion. I don't need to have objective data to hold an opinion, I can think anything I want to be bad.

It seems you aren't quite smart enough to understand what this discussion is about.

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

I am NOT a racist!!! I just want someone who can ACT as well!

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

That seems to be a common debate tactic these days, just call the other side racist and they'll shut up. The thing is to determine someone is racist you have quite the burden of proof, you have to determine that they don't like the character simply because of the skin color. Just disliking a performance that happens to be played by a black or female actor does not even come close to rising to the level of sexism/racism. Disliking a character that is black or female while not criticizing another character who was white or male also comes nowhere close to the level of racism/sexism.

reply

[–] moviefanatic505 (6357) 6 years ago

Which is why you think the prequels are good... Cause you know the performances in the prequels were so good.

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

And the "performances" in the OT were good? Don't make me laugh.

reply

[–] moviefanatic505 (6357) 6 years ago

Exactly my point. Why do the prequels and the OT get a pass but the Disney films don't?

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

I don't blame the acting, just the scripts, characterisation and storylines.

reply

[–] moviefanatic505 (6357) 6 years ago

Which weren't good in the other films either.

reply

[–] tom8 (3119) 6 years ago

nevermind this keelai fool..... just another SJW left wing nut job, that cries racism and misogyny at every bus stop, and accusing everyone that don't agree with her with, for being racist, womenhater etc

reply

[–] fc31 (6137) 6 years ago

I have problems with the Finn character more to do with it is actually degrading if anything to black people (and I am not black). He is a janitor, coward, liar and thief, drinks from a water fountain like an animal (and with an animal). One white girl bats eyelashes at him suddenly he is willing to kill the fellow people he grew up with like a mistreated loyal pet.

Considering Kathleen Kennedy is a fanatic white feminist, which I think it is an overlap between feminist and white supremacist, that did not look coincidental.

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

You made a good point about Finn, but Kennedy is no feminist nor egalitarian. She doesn't have the racial nor gender sensitivity to create characters that aren't offensive.

Most of Last Jedi was about degrading men and showing how wrong or weak men were in relation to women. "Strong" Captain Phasma's entire existence was to show her wearing a chrome costume with zip character development. Rose appeared to be just a romantic interest for Finn. None of that is feminism.

And young Lando is pansexual because he wears a flamboyant cape. Talk about stereotyping!

She probably told Disney what they wanted to hear about how she can appeal to a larger target audience in order to bring in more profit like she lied to Lucas about preserving SW legacy before she quickly tossed the entire EU.

reply

[–] fc31 (6137) 6 years ago

Rose was a brave soldier compare to the cowardice of Finn, I think that was the point. These days that is what feminism looks like.

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

The Resistance was a volunteer army so why wouldn't Finn be able to leave if he wanted to? He was trying to find Rey to protect her. Rose was a mechanic, not soldier.

Not feminism. Crappy SW:Disney hack writing.

They hired a nonwriter to write this mess. Sheesh!

reply

[–] fc31 (6137) 6 years ago

Yeah, they are all able to leave. The point is Rose did not. Finn was trying to sneak out, even he knew that was shameful.

That was intentional. It was crappy, but intended. That is what happens when instead of writing a good story they try to get political.

reply

[–] fc31 (6137) 6 years ago

Captain Phasma I think was to show women, well, white women to think of it, in leadership positions. I think that was the whole point of that character.

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

Phasma created to sell Phasma action figures. No story, no character arc, no development.

Crap writing.

reply

[–] fc31 (6137) 6 years ago

It could be a male or colored woman and they still would be able to sell toys, but it wasn't, was it?

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

I meant they did nothing with the character. She was just there. The actress played a strong female character on Game of Thrones who was completely three dimensional.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMhbzNYHu6w

BTW, SW toy sales are down.

reply

[–] fc31 (6137) 6 years ago

Yeah, that is a total waste. Why hire a strong female actress with towering physique and doing nothing about it? At least have her smash through few rebels or have a commanding presence in some way.

You see Darth Vader you see power and fear. You see Captain Phasma, you see another bureaucrat in uniform.

They even failed at feminism, which is the main agenda of the film, that is just total failure.

reply

[–] fc31 (6137) 6 years ago

I would have Captain Phasma as a Jango Fett level character. Let her test Ray's power, give her some trouble and beat her around a bit. That could have been fun.

reply

[–] fc31 (6137) 6 years ago

Or on the hunt for Finn, calling him a traitor and beat him to an inch of his life or hold him by the neck like Vader did in his first appearance.

I think the most successful female character of that type recently is Martian marine Roberta Draper in "The Expanse". You see men shivering in her presence and you wouldn't be surprised. And I think she was delightful unlike the cringe worthy performance in this movie.

reply

[–] TexasJack (12516) 6 years ago

Donald Glover was great but making him be in love with a robot was just idiotic.

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

I'm guessing he programmed L3-37 to be a "pleasure model"

reply

[–] tom8 (3119) 6 years ago

white feminist men and women are always the biggest racists themselves...... to hide their true selves, they go overboard.... but their true nature sometimes shine through.... like in the case you are referring here

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

It sounds like you only want white males who are only 31% of the American population and less worldwide (and diminishing) to star in films which isn't economically feasible.

RUBBISH. Why would you make that BULLSHIT ASSUMPTION? I never even MENTIONED gender or race!

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

Like I explained in detail, Lucas had diversity and left-wing politics in his movies, but he's a much better writer and had a clear message.

The present problem isn't that it's "woke" as you use the term since it always was under Lucas, the problem is the lack of quality writing.

reply

[–] TheHungryHippo (821) 6 years ago

Right if these SW fans you speak of hated women and black actors so much they would have complained about Leia, Lando, Mace Windu and Padme, all of which were fully capable of holding their own in a battle. The only reason there is outrage over the new characters isn't because of their race or gender, it's because they are poorly written and poorly acted.

reply

[–] Keelai (36157) 6 years ago

Not according to the OP's comment:

"I'm referring to forced feminism and forced cultural diversity in movies, picking actors based on their gender and skin colour rather than their acting ability, just to meet some diversity quota."

He brought up race and gender.

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

I said forced, Keelai. The OT wasn't forced, PT wasn't forced, Alien wasn't forced, Terminator wasn't forced, HP wasn't forced. They all came NATURALLY.

reply

[–] kaze (349) 5 years ago

wow so star wars has always been on the side of evil liars.

reply

[–] mikethemartian (7003) 6 years ago

Everytime I hear that term “woke” it makes me think of the Cartwright clan on Bonanza always trying to fight for justice and interfering with lynch mobs.

reply

[–] TexasJack (12516) 6 years ago

If Ep IX fails, she will be gone.

reply

[–] Threadkiller (3089) 6 years ago

I'm guessing the same reason she hired Jar Jar Abrams to write and direct his even bigger pile of sh*t that got the sh*t ball rolling.

reply

[–] johnmiller (4011) 6 years ago

Simple: Kennedy just wants to get the product made. She could be making paper towels, it would be no different. And, Johnson was just easy for her to work with, and she wants directors with no creative drive or ambition. Perfect fit.

reply

[–] ccr1633 (1538) 6 years ago

This nauseating article explains pretty much everything. The goal is to advance feminist causes, not tell good stories. It is completely antithetical to the movement to introduce male characters with personality and balls:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/22/movies/star-wars-last-jedi-women-run-universe.html

reply