MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > How many of you were hoping that TLJ wou...

How many of you were hoping that TLJ would redeem TFA?

posted 7 years ago by TexasJack (12516)
25 replies | jump to latest

I f***ing hated TFA. Really wanted to like it. Bought the Blu-Ray and watched it several times, trying to like it. Tried watching it drunk; tried watching it baked. The best I could give it was: great visuals and great music (I love Rey's Theme.)

I went into TLJ with more than an open mind. I saw it about 3 weeks after the opening because I wanted to avoid crowds, and I avoided ALL spoilers. Didn't even watch the trailers. The only advance word I had was from the "professional" critics who practically soiled themselves in the course of praising this film.

I was hoping that all my "WTF?" moments from TFA would be brilliantly answered in this movie. I was hoping that we would see such an amazing story for Luke that his bullshit cameo in TFA would suddenly make sense. Instead, we got him milking an alien sea cow.

[–] Thrillhouse (1509) 7 years ago

I hope for it to crash and burn because I don't like Disney and their politics.

However unlike you I think even the visuals are not good. There was nothing spectacular or breathtaking. It looked clean and mundane like JarJar Abrahm's tv shows. This is one thing that George Lucas was very good at, even with low budget and technology in the 70s because his inspiration to make the movies good. There were establishing shots and screen wipes. We want to see the worlds far far away. We don't want to see the sweat of a grunt with a steady cam mounted on his back as he charges into battle. That is for millitary style video games. Jar Jar wants to force us into his action because he doesn't trust that it is exciting enough for us to just watch. He doesn't understand that the suspense and drama comes from the characters. Lord of the Rings Twin Towers suffers from this big nameless epic battle syndrome too.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

You know where I stand jack...fucking bullshit excuse for star wars. And yeah...mostly liked TFA ...and figured the third act problems could be fixed for the most part in the sequel. Not to be...or not to even be attempted!??!😠😤👎

Honestly...you and I could have sat down with a pony keg and a half ounce and hammered out better shi t than this👍

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Nothing could redeem TFA. A better writer than RJ could have made TLJ work whilst also retrospectively fixing some problems with TFA but that would be their triumph, not JJs redemption. And fuck that's a lot of acronyms.

The story in TFA isn't just bad it is *broken*. It is fucked. It is the opposite of a story. It manages the near paradox of being a total rip-off of ANH whilst simultaneously destroying that story. It is the cinematic equivalent of Mark Chapman - an obsessed fan who knows everything yet understands nothing, whose only creative capacity is the ability to destroy.

So to answer the question: kinda. I hoped that on watching TLJ people would realise how awful TFA really was. And thankfully that seems to be the case for around 50% of the audience. Which is probably more than I could have hoped for.

[–] furiousstyles (4392) 7 years ago

How is it a total rip off of ANH? similar building blocks but it is its own story, dont understand this stupid arguement about completly riping it off.

[–] TristanReloaded (449) 7 years ago

i don't know about "total", it not only rips off ANH, but Emire/Jedi and parts of the EU too. How ist it a rip off? Let's start at the begining with ANH/TFA:

1. Stormtroopers attack civilians to obtain item
2. They brutaly defeat and capture them
3. Enter their black clad, masked leader
(he is a former Jedi Skywalker who was seduced by a dark lord and who then destroyed the Jedi Order paving the way for an empire)
4. He interviews the civilians leader and kills him to show how evil he is.
5. A young rebel has the sought item and hides it in a little droid.
6. Young rebel is capured and tortured/questioned and saved by a Stormtrooper.
7. The droid flees into the desert where he meets...

You know where this goes (exploding Death Stars), and if you do not get it by now, you never will...

Of course there are many other elements from other films in this scene, e.g.,

- Kylo's introduction is filmed more like Vader's in Jedi (more effective, with the steam and shuttle);
- a defecting stormtrooper is from EU-Han's background [now Solo too] and the cartoon shows and the comics;
- The night-village background with a massacre is visually and thematically lifted from Episode II when Anakin slaughters the sandpeople-village (one of the few clever references),
etc

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Come off if Furious. If you like the film, fair enough, but to deny it is a rip off is to deny reality. There are actual official reboots that are more original than TFA... look at the remakes of Robocop and Total Recall - these have significantly more differences to their respective originals than TFA has to ANH.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Are the "TFA is a ripoff" bashers still having trouble accepting that A New Hope was a literal ripoff of a Flash Gordon story? I mean this is fact, it's fact that Lucas failed to get the Flash license and simply adapted the specific Flash story into a different galaxy, and renamed the characters.

Force Awakens had to follow protocol, it was damn near committed to following the structure that A New Hope and Phantom Menace both laid down (and yes, TPM is also a "ripoff" of A New Hope).

A New Hope was the first, and it could have been original, but it was very clearly Flash Gordon in new duds. It even had the same type of opening scroll that Flash serials used.

I still chuckle every time A New Hope is claimed to be some super-original, never-before-imagined story that came out of George Lucas' forehead completely intact.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Yeah, but, Frogarama, unlike that Flash Gordon serial, from way back in the 1950s, EVERYONE knows A New Hope. EVERYONE. The only people likely to recall the Flash Gordon serial from the 1950s will be senile or DEAD.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Ok, lets accept for a moment that Star Wars is nothing more than a big old rip-off (not that I actually do but just for arguments sake) - in what way does that justify TFA being a rip-off? Can we just keep going forever then, just making the same film again and again and it's ok because there's nothing new under the sun?

No.

Star Wars took something and expanded it, grew it, developed it, improved it, *changed* it. TFA did just the opposite: it took something, then contracted it, reduced it, condensed it, and extracted from it everything that made it worthwhile.

[–] AP (5295) 7 years ago

A New Hope took inspiration from Flash Gordon as well as Hidden Fortress and several other films. It was a pastiche that Lucas made all his own. TFA was a direct scene-for-scene retread of that movie.

Pulp Fiction is also a pastiche of other films that came before it while still maintaining its own voice. Are you telling me that if someone were to make an anthology film concerning two hitman having a spiritual discussion after a near-death experience, a boxer on the run from the mob boss who wanted him to throw a fight, etc, you would sit here and say "Who cares if those film makers riipped off Pulp Fiction? Tarantino rips off other movies too".

[–] Threadkiller (3089) 7 years ago

I hoped that on watching TLJ people would realise how awful TFA really was. And thankfully that seems to be the case for around 50% of the audience. Which is probably more than I could have hoped for.

That was my main hope as well with TLJ but sadly it feels to me that it's more like 50% of the people who specifically disliked TLJ who are willing to recognize TFA for what it is. I find that the other 50% who were TFA lovers remain stubborn in the notion that it was all Rian Johnson's fault, more or less absolving J.J. Abrams, many believing that he can "save" the trilogy with the third installment.

TLJ (while still quite bad) was still not as bad as TFA given that a whole lot (though not all) of what makes TLJ bad is that it had to build off the clusterf*ck that was TFA.

[–] AP (5295) 7 years ago

I feel the same way. If I give TLJ any credit, it's due to the film makers actually trying something different. Those ideas mostly fell apart spectacularly, but at least there was some originality involved.

[–] furiousstyles (4392) 7 years ago

I actually liked TFA, was looking forward to this building on the story arcs TFA created, snoke, knights of ren, Luke, reys heritage instead Rian Johnson decided to do an Indie film and create controversy for the hell of it, this trilogy is now dead on the water.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

I HATED TFA as well but what pisses me off the most is that for some reason many others seem to love it. That episode of Big Bang Theory where the guys go to see it and are just mesmerized at how great it was just left me in utter shock.

Honestly I didn't think TLJ would redeem TFA but I didn't hate it as badly.

[–] dlancer (2036) 7 years ago

TFA took the easy route to avoid another Phantom Menace situation. I mean, I don't see why people are so pissed off at it when ROTJ did the same thing. In order to get another ESB (a good story that takes a detour) we need the universe to be set up with conditions we can accept, which TFA accomplished. Then TLJ threw it all away because Rian Johnson is a complete idiot of a storyteller.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

I hated TFA, not just because it was a literal by-the-numbers checklist of ANH, but because it did it POORLY, with characters I couldn't stand, namely the Mary Sue, the comic relief black guy, the too-good-to-be-true pilot, and the whiny emo villain, not to mention a droid that was 100% designed to be CUTE. And I HATE CUTE.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

I find this point of view harder to get my head around than that of TFA being a flawless masterpiece. It's like you're accepting that it's bad but that's ok because we needed it to happen? I just don't see why that is the case... sure you had to get the universe in a place where the story can continue, but you don't do that just by hitting a big old reset switch, by pulling new villains out of your arse, by ruining a great character (and JJs treatment of Han was every bit as bad as RJs treatment of Luke).

And the Deathstar argument, again, does that mean we can just have Deathstar's in every movie now because Jedi had another one? No. At some point you say enough is enough and two of them was just fine.

[–] dlancer (2036) 7 years ago

The story didn't continue with TFA. A new one began.
Ending ROTJ with Vader dying and the fall of the Empire was a reset switch by itself.
Introducing a new villain is required, but TFA did a little extra by also suggesting an old villain (TLJ ignored it).
Harrison Ford agreed to do the movie if they killed him off, and as long as it wasn't spoiled for you, it turned out to be the "holy shit" moment of the movie. Ford also wanted this back in ROTJ but they declined.

You can argue ANH is about a giant space station. You can argue ROTJ is about another space station. But if you argue TFA is about Starkiller base, you've veered off track. Since the Death Star thing had already been done repeatedly, they put Starkiller base in the background.

[–] furiousstyles (4392) 7 years ago

completely agree

[–] AP (5295) 7 years ago

ROTJ was only similar to ANH in that both movies had a Death Star. Also, ROTJ is generally regarded as the weakest of the OT, so I'm not sure that's a good comparison.

And I don't understand the argument that Star Wars needed to be set up. TFA was the seventh film of the franchise. The vast majority of the people watching will have already seen the previous films or be aware of them enough to know what's going on. Aside from that, if you feel the need to set things up for future films, it makes sense to do something new. Instead of the Empire coming back inexplicably with the third Death Star, why not go with Knights of Ren taking over the galaxy to set up a new rule? Knights of Ren is an interesting concept and the movies have done nothing with them. This way, old fans get an interesting new villain while new fans start fresh.

[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

My primary hope was it would fix Rey and make her co stars more valuable to the overall story. That Luke would be important to the story and be used well in moving the trilogy forward. Instead Rey still seems like an overpowered character that has no serious obstacles. Finn is more worthless than he was in TFA and is now saddled with probably the worst human character added to the trilogy. The Poe character seems incompetent and the Admiral he deals with more so. Luke was completely wasted and was so unlike the character he was before that he simply wasn't believable. The got rid of the only serious threat while leaving Ren as a weak villain and made more of a joke of Hux. Phasma might as well not have been brought back. RJ left nothing to look forward to in part 9. It really did the opposite of what most hoped it would do. Its Star Wars version of Highlander 2.