Another example of Christians not understanding their own doctrine. - Left Behind (2014) Discussion

[–] patxi1460 10 years ago

Of course the Christians have an answer as to who would or who would not be taken.... "God, in his infinite wisdom decides and his decision stands... who are we to question it?" It's one of those "God moves in mysterious ways" moments. Now that would make for a good human interest story... not Sci-fi, not action but maybe a bit like "The Man Who Sued God" film that starred Billy Connolly. The protagonist would rant and rave about how unfair the decision process was but in an insane humorous way... perhaps Omar Djalili could star?

And what would the reaction be of the so-called Christians that I have known and who I feel sure will be left behind when they discover that... shock horror... their behaviour stopped them from being taken in the Rapture?

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[–] andrewgoro 10 years ago

I am Christian, and all I can say is that the Bible is quiet when it comes to the topic of babies and children's salvation and/or rapture. The Bible does not says neither yes nor no. And that's for a good reason.
But one thing I do know. There is a huge chance of being led astray from what the Word of God actually says if you rely on Hollywood. So far I haven't seen one Hollywood movie that presented truth from the Bible. Even "The Bible" series on History channel was not good.

However I liked original Left Behind with Kirk Cameron. It leaves you with some questions but it gets the message out that Christ is the only way to God.

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[–] AverageItalian 10 years ago

All the children that we see might be baptised (and they obviously believe in God since they're children, while their parents might have lost faith). The thing is never really stated. They probably thought it was too cruel to show children remaining "left behind" but still, God doesn't give a damn about you're innocence.

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[–] TheBaerIII 10 years ago

I think this falls under "non-Christians not understanding the doctrines that Christians are mislead by."

For those who believe in Jesus:

Christians are to be Christ-like, plain and simple. The key is that Jesus is alive, we're not supposed to be as He was, but as He is right now. The bible is not the center of our faith, Jesus is. Why become so distracted by defending words written, when in those words it is written, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us!? Jesus IS the Word of God, according to the bible. The scriptures never claim to be the Word of God.

For those who don't:

If you're left trying to understand the bible to understand Christians, I have sympathy for you. It's not an easy text to grasp without faith. A popular saying is, "You can't judge a book by it's cover." Jesus' words were similar when he said something like, "You will know a tree by it's fruit." In other words, observe the person and see what results from their actions, or lack thereof. That is how you will know how close that person is to the Jesus they claim loyalty to.

For everyone:

In the scriptures (bible) the taken and left behind concept happen at least two times prior to Jesus mentioning it where people form a "rapture" doctrine.

1) Sodom and Gomorrah. Angels came to the wicked cities. Who did they take and who was left behind? Remember, previously Abraham had pleaded with God to spare the righteous in the city. Only Lot's household was left behind and the wicked were taken from the earth, destroyed.

2) The Great Flood. The population of the earth had become contaminated with wickedness. God tells Noah to build an ark that will spare people and animals from the coming flood. Everyone (animals included) in the ark was left behind, while everything else was taken from the earth, destroyed.

In these two instances, being left behind is GOOD.

Jesus gives us more clues in the parable of the Wheat and the Tares (Matthew 13:24-30), particularly in verse 30 (emphasis mine):

Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”

When the "taking" happens, it's not the ones who accepted Christ that will be taken.

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[–] nammage 10 years ago

Muslims, Jews, Christians all worship the same deity just differently.

-Nam

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[–] theycallmebrandon 10 years ago

Not true. Anyone that has never heard the word is innocent and will be given a pass.

As an agnostic, I always wondered why Christians could be so selfish then because there is the loophole that would save all our souls. All Christians have to do is destroy all their religious text and never speak of their beliefs, and as the generations went by all of humanity would be given passes by default. They would sacrifice their eternal life for everyone else which is the greatest act of love possible.

Also, the rapture isnt a shared belief by all the denominations. It was first thought up just a few hundred years ago, in fact. It's mostly a protestant belief.

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[–] gabby_bm 10 years ago

What if "The Word" is presented to someone badly? Is that still considered "The Word"? There is such a slew of bad translations and interpretations that I wonder if anyone today really KNOWS "The Word".

I don’t need you to tell me how good my coffee is.. 
.

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[–] Kelvius 10 years ago

"The Word" is Christ and He presents Himself to those that will believe in the Good News ABOUT Him.

The Gospel is so simple that a child can understand it. Many people will not accept the Good News because they cannot accept the "bad news" which is that they are in need of redemption.

It is not complicated to present the Good News of The Word. Believing that God gave us Christ and that He was risen from the dead and that simply believing that this act happened is to acknowledge that we ALL are fallen creatures in need of His redemption. To not believe this is to reject God. To reject God is to reject salvation.

The problems start when people try to add their own spices to the mix.. but the Gospel is fairly simple... but when we see the world through flesh-colored glasses we can become blinded to the Truth of the Spirit.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is God's power for salvation to everyone who believes

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[–] gabby_bm 10 years ago

My main dilemma comes down to:

How does a reasoned and logical person abandon those traits in favor of faith? Man is blessed with reasoning and a scientific mind. Not only is man expected to abandon these in favor of faith, but to reject these traits with which he was blessed.

Is it fair and just for the lord to give man the ability to think and reason- and to have a thirst for knowledge and understanding about the world we live in- and then expect man to reject these abilities? Not only to reject them, but to be punished for NOT rejecting them.

I don’t need you to tell me how good my coffee is.. 
.

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[–] Kelvius 10 years ago

What we were 'blessed with' is free-will. That is what makes us individuals and is coupled with our ability to reason unlike animals, vegetables, and minerals.. but part of that free-will comes with the price. The ability to have faith in the face of logic is also part of that.
If we were made without the ability to make the "wrong choice" then it would essentially nullify free-will would it not? In that case we would be like robots.

A big part of that is that we cannot be perfect as long as we are NOT God.. because my free-will would inevitably conflict with the free-will of another person. That is one of the keys in needing Faith that there is a way to reconcile all of our free-wills with that which is the only Truly Free-Will, the will of God.

How does a reasoned and logical person abandon those traits in favor of faith?

Are we not all called/required to do this, Christian or not?
To be logical we must both admit that ignorance is the root common denominator in knowledge. As logical beings we cannot 100% logically conclude in one way or another because neither of us can arbitrarily decide what meets the criteria for evidence of the existence of God.
Through personal experiences we then make the choice on what qualifies for us as evidence of the existence of God.
But, then both the theist and the atheist are in the same boat with 'faith' because we are having faith that the criteria that we have chosen is adequate proof, therefore both are making a leap of faith. It is far more logical to say "I don't know" and just leave it at that. But without faith there is only empty hope.

Is it fair and just for the lord to give man the ability to think and reason- and to have a thirst for knowledge and understanding about the world we live in- and then expect man to reject these abilities?

I think so, because without those abilities we wouldn't be free-moral agents and would indeed be automatons. If it were not so then we would never have had the ability to question in the first place. It all would sound very circular to me if I did not believe that there was a specific purpose of our creation.. that being for us to seek the Will of God over our own 'free-will'. Since we are NOT perfect and we are all walking around within a certain level of ignorance of our existence then it can only make sense to turn to the creator that had NO ignorance of our existence.. It may also sound self-serving for God to make it like this.. unless you consider that He didn't have to create anyone at all but that His creation of us was out of an act of love. When we reject God then we reject the love of the creator. If that is what we were created to do then it is not unfair and it is just.

Not only to reject them, but to be punished for NOT rejecting them.

I don't necessarily see it as punishment in that way. I simply see it as an inevitability that is made quite clear. If we are to believe that Love and Justice are epitomized in the Will of the Creator (versus the will of humans) than to reject the God's Will is to reject Love and Justice and to accept the broken creation of our own ignorance, thus we must walk by faith in God. We cannot set ourselves as the true standard for Love and Justice because we do not and CAN NOT know everything like God.. therefore to merely put faith in ourselves is folly as we embrace and even glorify our own ignorance and limitations in the face of Perfection that is reaching out to us with open arms.
When we reject God's perfect will then we are accepting our own flawed will to our own peril. The message of Christ's salvation is simply to Love God and to Have Compassion on all people which is only possible through loosing this false faith in ourselves and turning to Faith in God through the event of the Cross. To reject this freely is to reject Love, Compassion, and Justice.. willingly. What is God to do with those that therefore choose to embrace Indifference, Apathy, and Iniquity?

The essence of our being is to be imperfect but imperfection cannot exist in the perfected universe that is awaiting us. We choose to either remain in darkness or seek the Light. Those that choose to remain in darkness then come to love the darkness and to hate the Light. They willingly will have NO part in the Kingdom. At the end of the day we must either tell God "Thy Will Be Done" otherwise God will say to us "Thy Will Be Done".

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is God's power for salvation to everyone who believes

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[–] behamut 10 years ago

My main dilemma comes down to:

How does a reasoned and logical person abandon those traits in favor of faith? Man is blessed with reasoning and a scientific mind. Not only is man expected to abandon these in favor of faith, but to reject these traits with which he was blessed.

Is it fair and just for the lord to give man the ability to think and reason- and to have a thirst for knowledge and understanding about the world we live in- and then expect man to reject these abilities? Not only to reject them, but to be punished for NOT rejecting them.

I've always found this argument interesting, since to me as a Christian, the existence of God is the logical and reasonable choice. The theory of evolution, for example, is irrational and illogical to me. It is so far fetched and improbable that, to me, it makes logical sense that it cannot be true. The idea of an all powerful being that created everything to work so perfectly and congruently is logical.

Through reason, I also can understand our place in God's plan. I think it is because when a person views the world without God, they can only see it selfishly (not meaning that in a negative way). A person can only see it from their perspective because there isn't another one to view it from. But once someone understands that this is not our world, but God's world, and that the nature of our existence is about Him, and not ourselves, suddenly everything makes sense.

We tend to view everything from our own human perspective and try to shove God into that box. We always view our temporary life here on Earth as the pinnacle because it is all we understand and know. When we do this, it looks illogical and that's because under those terms it doesn't make sense (such as children dying in the great flood) because WE wouldn't do things that way. However, from God's view, things work completely differently. Our existence is a temporary one compared to His eternal one. Our temporary body dying is really of no consequence compared to the condition of one's soul. The fact that a person's life was snuffed out early, and they didn't get to live out their little temporary existence, in the grand scheme of things is pretty irrelevant, especially to God.

On another note, the more I understand about the world, science, and the way things work, the more I can't NOT see God. With the amazing precision that the universe exists in, the only logical choice is that an all-powerful being created it.

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[–] julielb67 10 years ago

I've always found this argument interesting, since to me as a Christian, the existence of God is the logical and reasonable choice. The theory of evolution, for example, is irrational and illogical to me. It is so far fetched and improbable that, to me, it makes logical sense that it cannot be true. The idea of an all powerful being that created everything to work so perfectly and congruently is logical.

This is how I see it as well. I just can't see that there's not intelligent design (God) behind it all.

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[–] drjettrink 10 years ago

That's fine: for you. The natural world does not make sense to YOU, that does not make you right. You do understand that, correct?

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[–] Kelvius 10 years ago

The problem with your argument is this.. The natural world does not make sense to scientists either.. Science is the attempt to make sense of it based on our own ability to understand.. but any honest study of many sciences reveal that the more that science "reveals" that the more questions arise.

I have no problem with science. It is just a tool to try to quantify natural events into a system that makes sense to us and that we can work with; hence technology.. But do not be fooled into believing that science is some replacement for Actual Truth.. Many parts of science will ever and always remain merely theoretical because true scientific method must include the ability to reproduce results... and we certainly cannot reproduce the creation and development of the universe no matter how many mathematical models that we concoct.

Science will never explain God or creation anymore than a river can flow higher than its source. Even if I were not a Christian (and when I wasn't) I would never think that science has all the answers..

Your problem is that you think that only science and logic can provide any answers. You are limiting yourself by making that choice. There is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" but when people claim that the KNOW that God most be false it is just plain wrong.. because even if there was not such thing as a God no one would ever be able to KNOW that anyway.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is God's power for salvation to everyone who believes

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[–] EazyEwok 10 years ago

God is the logical and reasonable choice.

The theory of evolution, for example, is irrational and illogical

Hilarious.

TooYoungToCare

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[–] behamut 10 years ago

Exactly what is "hilarious" about that? You may not agree with it, but that doesn't invalidate it, nor does it explain it away.

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[–] EazyEwok 10 years ago

You consider scientific theories with mountains of evidence to back them up irrational, but consider a myth that's been passed on for thousands of years, without a single shred of evidence to back it up, perfectly rational. There's no argument to be had. I wouldn't debate a child about the existence of his imaginary friend, so I certainly wouldn't debate you.

TooYoungToCare

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[–] behamut 10 years ago

They're exactly that. Theories.

And a "myth" is only the spin you and others have put on it. It doesn't make it so.

Both are debatable, both require faith, so yes there is an argument to be had.

Secondly, we weren't arguing. I was stating a fact. I find it logical. That's not up for debate. If you don't agree, so be it.

Lastly, God being an "imaginary friend" is a decision you have made. It doesn't make it so. So get off your high horse and realize that you very well may be wrong. You can't prove that you aren't.

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[–] Belforhir 10 years ago

Science once KNEW the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth...

Just sayin..

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[–] osopestoso 10 years ago

God loves you anyway.

"They sucked his brains out!"

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[–] DelphinusMinor 9 years ago

Hey Christians, your own bible states that a prerequisite for getting into heaven is a belief in Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior.

This. A thousand times, this.

You need to accept Jesus into your heart willingly. Many Christians baptise their babies not even knowing this simple but important fact.

In order for anyone to be baptised, they have to agree to be baptised or else it means nothing.

+++ Jason

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