Funniest damn ending ever! - Nymphomaniac: Vol. II (2014) Discussion

[–] Crotchsplitter 11 years ago

OMG that ending ruined the movie. SHould have ended with her just going to sleep. Seriously, wtf?

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[–] shempXIV 11 years ago

But then Uncle Lars couldn't have fully expressed his contempt for humanity (especially men) now, could he?

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[–] icequeen_vienna 11 years ago

Von Trier likes to shock. But to me that felt incongruous. Throughout both films we feel that Seligman listens and wants to help her. Then he does this, which seems out of character. UNLESS that was a side to him we did not know about.

Kind of depressing, really. But I still enjoyed the film.

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[–] Fake_Plastic_Love 11 years ago

We know nothing of Seligman except he's a pseudo intellectual who keeps interrupting Joe with digressions. Besides the main theme of the film is hypocrisy.

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[–] gregoryhuffman 10 years ago

How is he a pseudo-intellectual? I think people mix up this term with pretentious. A pseudo-intellectual is someone who pretends to know what he is talking about when he does not, in an attempt to feign knowledge. If the references this character made were true, then at most you could accuse him of being pretentious by spouting off knowledge that was irrelevant.

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[–] ThreeSadTigers 10 years ago

then at most you could accuse him of being pretentious by spouting off knowledge that was irrelevant.

"Pretentious" would mean he was pretending to be something better than he actually was; a literal pretense. That clearly wasn't the case.

He was an intellectual and very knowledgeable about a wide variety of topics. At worst he was a bore; always interrupting the story to deconstruct Joe's analogies. But this was a symptom of his loneliness and his awkwardness at dealing with people.

He wanted to turn the story into a conversation to fulfill his own loneliness, but also had no other way of showing Joe that he was engaged in the stories she was telling.

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[–] atlantajoseph 10 years ago

I sensed subtle creepiness from Seligman throughout the film... seemed a bit "off" and the ending did seem to flow. Very well played by Stellan Skarsgard.

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[–] natbaj 11 years ago

Exactly, I also thought of that. It also ruined it for me a bit, but in the same time I wondered if maybe he wanted to experience sex that one time ever, since she's experienced. Highly unlikely somebody of his intelligence could do that in such a wrong moment anyway :P

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[–] Nirhtuc 11 years ago

Oh come on, 'Uncle Lars' (why do you keep calling him 'uncle'?? lol!) is not a man hater. Have you watched Antichrist? After watching that movie, I was convinced he was a woman hater. After watching Nymphomaniac, I'm convinced he's just a misanthropist. Which is fair enough- I'm with him on that one.

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[–] totokeke 11 years ago

Contempt for humanity? You're confusing von Trier with George Lucas or Steven Spielberg and their "love me or I'll kill you" and "give me your money -- forever" ethic. Not to mention the wretched films they shove down people's throats -- now that's contempt!

Anyway, Seligman got what he wanted. He instructed Joe on how to use the gun, in perfect detail, actually, after claiming he knew nothing about guns. At this point Joe might have left out of prudence, but Seligman was looking for someone to kill him, and it's unfortunate Joe was there at the right time with the right equipment. Seligman certainly didn't have the right equipment, when he came in to "rape" her -- he knew her well enough by that point to anticipate what she'd do in that particular situation. Plus we all knew it was coming. The death drive is one of von Trier's super topics, so there ya go.

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[–] Nirhtuc 11 years ago

I still think Von Trier is a bit of a misanthropist. If you look at all his main characters (from any of his movies), it shows a weird and distinct 'lack of love' for any of them- they are so flawed and do not have any redeeming qualities. I'm not sure how to explain it succintly, but that's just my opinion.

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[–] pferdemann 11 years ago

Never get into the friend zone

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[–] shempXIV 11 years ago

Please define "the friend zone."

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[–] Madgoodmoves 11 years ago

Hahaha

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[–] Madgoodmoves 11 years ago

That's pretty good

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[–] Nirhtuc 10 years ago

More like 'never try to rape your friends' :/

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[–] [email protected] (1367) 7 years ago

AGREED!

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[–] gocho23 11 years ago

I think Seligman didn`t want have sex with Joe until the story with the pedophile. “The man who succeed to repressing his own desires deserves a bloody medal", she is saying. And she gave a blowjob to the pedophile. Seligman is also that kind of man - he have been repressed his sexual desires all his life. So he starts to think that he deserves reward too, moreover, he is not a pedophile or some maniac,"I am innocent", he is saying about himself. According to Joe`s logic (in his mind) he deserves blowjob or sex as well. And why not, she`s a nymphomaniac, have been with thousands of men... With that conclusion at the end Seligman shows that he didn`t understood Joe like person at all, and beyond his knowledge he is just one hypocrite - the human trait that Joe hates the most. That`s why she is shooting him. And that`s the most logic and possible end.

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[–] gameleste 11 years ago

YES, i totally agree with you.

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[–] OlaCorleone 11 years ago

No. That makes absolutely no sense. Seligman didn't "repress" any desires because he simply didn't have any. He's ASEXUAL, I don't know which part of the word you do not get.

Anyway.
It only happened to prove Joe right about the hypocrisy. On a different note, her whole point was that she's lonely, she could never talk to anyone comfortably or have a friend. At the end she says she's finally found a friend in him, he ends up doing what he does to, again, prove her point on humanity being horrible and sentimentals being all lies. I honestly think it was very clever, the way the film ended, it seemed to be the right closure for the story because her wanting to change, admitting she has a problem and concentrating all her powers on being the "one in a million" seemed a bit ridiculous to me.

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[–] cthulhulurks 11 years ago

The problem is the pedophile didn't want a blowjob from an old female ho. He liked boys.

my vote history:
http://www.imdb.com/user/ur13767631/ratings

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[–] LaissezFaire_Aggeliki 11 years ago

LOL

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[–] LaissezFaire_Aggeliki 11 years ago

@gocho23: I totally, 100% agree with you in every word. I find the ending brilliant and very much in character for both of them. And also very telling of the nature of the human soul, in all its irrational depth and complexity. I didn't find it funny at all (sorry, OP).

As a side comment, I'd like to point out that imo he wasn't trying to rape her, as many posters here seem to believe. Far from it. He was just starting to get it hard when she woke up, and while she was still asleep he was rubbing himself on her, waiting for her to wake up -- which she surely would soon enough. I seriously can't imagine him penetrating her while she was asleep, no way. He couldn't do it physically even if he wanted to, which I'm sure he didn't by his whole mild and even playful attitude at that moment. He was more awkward due to his inexperience than aggressive -- actually he was not aggresive at all. That's nowhere near rape in my book, it's just poking a (potential) lover while he/she's asleep in order to have sex after he/she wakes up. Most of us have done this once or twice in our lives, I'm sure, ;) and we're not rapists. Seligman's efford to have sex with Joe at that point was idiotic (but oh so human and realistic), given her history, her issues and her decision to stop all her sexual activity -- but rape it was not.

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[–] jmooreluvu 10 years ago

Yeah, you're a rapist, dude. And I hope the next time you poke a woman with your dick when she's trying to sleep and wants to be left alone (especially a woman you haven't known really long, like the relationship in this movie) she takes out her gun and shoots you in the nuts.

Seligman had left the room and said she wouldn't be bothered by anyone. And the next thing she knows he's there with his dick in his hand. He was trying to rape her. I would have shot him too.

Jesus, men are scum these days. I'm seriously thinking of going back to lesbianism. So much less drama and so much less sociopathy.

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[–] teenidol_12 10 years ago

Jesus, men are scum these days. I'm seriously thinking of going back to lesbianism. so much less drama and so much less sociopathy.

...I think you should sit down and rewatch both volumes again. The film overall is very self-aware and challenges Joe's decisions and actions in the way an audience would. Were you wearing ear muffs during the closing segment of Volume II where Saligman questions Joe's perception had she been a man committing her lifelong acts? Many scenes in the film can be argued as depicting Joe to be a rapist (pedophile receiving a blowjob after being exposed, blowjob in the train early in volume I, etc), but people always seem to overlook that sense of hypocrisy like you just did by generalizing all men as "scum" in contrast to women.

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[–] DeniP 9 years ago

Jesus, men are scum these days. I'm seriously thinking of going back to lesbianism. So much less drama and so much less sociopathy.

Please do so. Go 'back to lesbianism' and never leave. We, men, do not need another overgeneralizing, labeling, misandrist, SOCIOPATHIC *beep* to hurt us anymore with her hate.
It's funny how you accuse of sociopathy, when you are the one unable of empathy to fellow human beings.
I pity the men who will have anything to do with you. You'll not really notice the good things that they do and the many good qualities they have, but you'll notice BIG TIME any imperfections they might have (and only in your opinion) and "wrong", "bad" (again, in your opinion) things they do. And you'll remember. You'll keep a mental list. It's a devilish mental filter that only lets you see/remember the "bad" things.
The reality is by now you've become damaged goods. It would take tremendous efforts by a very skilled psychotherapist to break the vicious cycle of this black mental filter which is self-perpetuating, since you'll only see what you want to see - more and more confirmations that men are awful, and ignore and belittle all evidence to the contrary.

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[–] AlexSefton 9 years ago

As a side comment, I'd like to point out that imo he wasn't trying to rape her, as many posters here seem to believe. Far from it. He was just starting to get it hard when she woke up, and while she was still asleep he was rubbing himself on her, waiting for her to wake up -- which she surely would soon enough. I seriously can't imagine him penetrating her while she was asleep, no way.

It really doesn't matter whether he was trying to penetrate her while she was asleep or he was just waiting for her to wake up. He had penetration in his mind and she did not give consent. That constitutes as an attempted rape, as defined in the law of many countries. Unless, he stops after she said no. But we weren't shown that last bit. The screen turns to dark and we can only hear Seligman say that she had done it with thousands of men, which can be inferred as him insisting to have his way at her.

I still say Joe was wrong to shoot him right away. She had choices other than shooting him. But that's another point. Right now, all I wanted to say is that he was indeed trying to have sexual intercourse with her without her consent. Especially since he could have asked her when she was still awake. But he actually waited until she fell asleep.

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[–] LaissezFaire_Aggeliki 9 years ago

Yes, he was trying to have intercourse with her.

But:

He didn't force penetration while she was asleep.
He never at any point attempt to penetrate her without her consent.
He insisted to have sex by talking to her, not by force.

Trying to have sex without actual force may be harassment (which it was in this case). But it's not rape or attempted rape.

Especially since he could have asked her when she was still awake. But he actually waited until she fell asleep.

Obviously he got the urge or/and the courage to try long after they stopped talking. But I'll agree he could have waited until the next day to ask her. He didn't wait because he couldn't resist his urges, or because he felt it might be easier in the night, or whatever. So maybe he acted like a pervert or a manipulator or whatever, but he did not act like a rapist.

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[–] AlexSefton 9 years ago

He didn't force penetration while she was asleep.
He never at any point attempt to penetrate her without her consent.
He insisted to have sex by talking to her, not by force.

That's because he was still trying to get an erection, when she woke up. There's no other explanation why he came in while she was still sleeping, other than he wanting to have sex while she was unconscious.

Trying to have sex without actual force may be harassment (which it was in this case). But it's not rape or attempted rape.

https://rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/was-it-rape

Just because force wasn't applied, doesn't mean it's not rape. Just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean the intent to commit the crime does not exist. Evidences of his actions showed that there was intent.

He didn't wait because he couldn't resist his urges, or because he felt it might be easier in the night, or whatever.

Exactly! He didn't wait. You're defending someone who gives in to their urges and commits crime. Also, it's not like he was too aroused that he couldn't wait. He didn't even have an erection. This strengthen the hypothesis that he was indeed using the opportunity to try and have his way while she was sleeping. What do you think he would have done if she didn't wake up at all? Just kneel there all night?

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[–] LaissezFaire_Aggeliki 9 years ago

There's no other explanation why he came in while she was still sleeping, other than he wanting to have sex while she was unconscious.

Just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean the intent to commit the crime does not exist.

What do you think he would have done if she didn't wake up at all? Just kneel there all night?

Maybe you're right. Maybe you're not. Who knows?

All of the above points are pure speculation, not facts as shown in the movie.
We can all speculate on what he might have done, or what went through his mind.
If your speculation is correct, then he might be a rapist.
If your speculation is wrong, then he is not.

I prefer to judge him based on the film's facts and the presumption of innocence, so I think he's not a rapist. But that's just my opinion. If you don't prefer this basis of judgement, then OK, I respect your opinion. After all, this thread is not a court of law, it's just a friendly discussion. :)

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[–] AlexSefton 9 years ago

After all, this thread is not a court of law, it's just a friendly discussion. :)

Exactly. I hardly ever met anyone here on IMDB who doesn't get all emotional when I counter their points. Thank you for not getting emotional.

I prefer to judge him based on the film's facts and the presumption of innocence.

My opinion is based on the facts as well. I clearly mentioned that rape didn't happen, but it doesn't mean that intent to rape was not there. You said it yourself he was trying to have intercourse with her. What do you call trying to have an intercourse with someone who's asleep? Did he explicitly try to wake her up? No. Did he wait for her to fall asleep? Yes. Did he ask her if she wants to have sex with him? No.

This isn't rape in the general sense, but rather in the technical sense. I don't think Seligman was a rapist. But what he did can be considered an attempt to rape. Even if you don't mean harm, it is still rape if the other person doesn't give consent.

Mind you that if the urge to have sex came after hearing the stories, Seligman could have asked her to have sex with him before she goes to sleep, or after she wakes up. Even if he couldn't wait that night, the least he could do is wake her up first and ask her.

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[–] LaissezFaire_Aggeliki 9 years ago

Thank you for not getting emotional, too! :)

You said it yourself he was trying to have intercourse with her. What do you call trying to have an intercourse with someone who's asleep?

Maybe I wasn't clear about this. Please let me clarify, speculating as well now:

I think he was trying to have intercourse with her as a general intent and not while she was asleep. I'm guessing Seligman knew it was practically impossible to initiate penetration while she was asleep without waking her up. This is impossible for any man, even with a full hard-on, unless the woman is drugged. I think Seligman was clever enough to know this, despite his inexperience, and even more so, he knew any touching would certainly wake her up. So, I'm guessing he intended to rub himself on her until she woke up, and then have sex with her consent.

I think it didn't cross his mind that she might reject him when she woke up, even after she stated she had quit sex (which is stupid but common male way of thinking). In case of rejection though, I'm sure he'd use persuasion, due to his peaceful and cerebral nature. Seligman was an intellectual, used to keep himself under mind control in all aspects. He certainly didn't seem like a violent man to me. So, persuasion by talk would be his way, as I honestly can't imagine him using any force or violence to save his life, much less to have sex. In the film he didn't force her after she woke up, he just expressed his incredulity for her denial.

About asking her before sleeping, or the next day, I believe I covered it on my previous posts. Bad judgment, perversion, cowardliness, whatever... but not rape intent. Does rubbing qualify as any kind of rape? If it does, then I agree with you.

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[–] AlexSefton 9 years ago

I think it didn't cross his mind that she might reject him when she woke up, even after she stated she had quit sex (which is stupid but common male way of thinking)

😀I'm a male and I wouldn't think like that. Especially when the person is tired and wants to rest.

Your claim that he just wants to wake her up by rubbing his penis on her is very contradictory to this :

Seligman was an intellectual, used to keep himself under mind control in all aspects. He certainly didn't seem like a violent man to me. So, persuasion by talk would be his way

Waking up a woman you barely know by rubbing your penis on her is even more brazened than asking her directly, and also very offensive. No matter how promiscuous that woman is.
You're telling me, that after waiting all night to hear her stories, he waited for her to fall asleep, just so he can sneak in, rub his penis until she wakes up and hope to have sex with her?

Does rubbing qualify as any kind of rape?

No. But was he really going to stop at just rubbing his penis on her? Either way, it's still an offence. Plus he violated her trust.

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[–] LaissezFaire_Aggeliki 9 years ago

I'm a male and I wouldn't think like that.

Yes, that's why I said it's "common". Thankfully, many men don't think like this. If I thought all men do I'd have said "standard", or "typical" or sth.

Your claim that he just wants to wake her up by rubbing his penis on her is very contradictory to this...

Yes, sadly (or not?) it is contradictory. Human nature is contradictory, all of us are contradictory, and Seligman is no exception. Which is one of the film's brilliant points imo.

Waking up a woman you barely know by rubbing your penis on her is even more brazened than asking her directly...

You think? In my experience many people often prefer direct action over direct pre-acting communication, believing it to be easier and more effective -- and often it is, especially in obvious situations. The key here is that in Seligman's mind it was obvious that having consensual sex with a nympho was a sure thing, anytime, anywhere. So when the idea of this unique opportunity for him to finally have (easy) sex formed in his head he went for it, right then and there.

You're telling me, that after waiting all night to hear her stories, he waited for her to fall asleep, just so he can sneak in, rub his penis until she wakes up and hope to have sex with her?

Yes. But you're making it sound like he had a plan to do this from earlier, from when they were still talking. I don't think he had it planned. I think he got the idea of having sex after she fell asleep, after all of her stories and the possibilities sank in, and then he went for it exactly as you said: He decided to "sneak in, rub his penis until she wakes up and hope to have sex with her". But even if he did have a plan for all this, that doesn't make him a rapist.

We can go on and on analyzing Seligman's character, but that's not why I came to this thread. I came here only for the "rapist or not" point.
So, to sum it up, being unthoughtful, contradictory, stupid, cowardly, lazy, reckless, offensive, untrustworthy, etc., etc., doesn't make Seligman a rapist.

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[–] AlexSefton 9 years ago

Yes, sadly (or not?) it is contradictory. Human nature is contradictory, all of us are contradictory, and Seligman is no exception. Which is one of the film's brilliant points imo.

I was pointing to your previous explanation, not the film's writing. That it's implausible (not impossible) that Seligman would be so brazen as that, unless he was a liar from the start.

In my experience many people often prefer direct action over direct pre-acting communication, believing it to be easier and more effective -- and often it is, especially in obvious situations.

Does this include committing potential sexual offence to someone you just met a few hours ago? I can understand doing it to someone you've known for quite some time, or someone in agreement that you both are in a sexual relationship.

Yes. But you're making it sound like he had a plan to do this from earlier, from when they were still talking. I don't think he had it planned.

Yes, sorry I didn't mean to imply that he had planned it. But still, it doesn't matter. That question pertains to your previous post only. You said he was an intellectual, used to keep his mind under control in all aspects. But he still sneaks in even knowing she's still asleep. Knowing that she just got beaten up and just decided to quit sex altogether. Why does he do it exactly? You said it's because he was being unthoughtful, contradictory, stupid, cowardly, etc. Well, in real life, momentary lapse of judgement doesn't excuse you from attempting to rape. Most of the people who have committed rape didn't plan their first offence. The moment someone fails to control their urge, and they decided to have intercourse without seeking consent from the other person, that's when an attempt of rape happens.

I've already said it in my previous post: I don't think Seligman was a rapist, as in, he probably never had done things like that before. He didn't proceed with force. Rape didn't happen. This is clear.

At this moment, I'd like to ask you to clear your mind from your previous perception of rape. Rape isn't necessarily violent. Force isn't a necessary component in rape. The victim can be intoxicated, unconscious, or not in a state where they can give proper consent. Any penetrative intercourse without eligible consent from the other person is deemed as rape in the court of law.

What is clear, is that Seligman came in with sexual intentions, knowing she was asleep. He came in without wearing any pants nor underwear. He did NOT explicitly try to wake her up. In fact, he was very quiet and careful about it. His focus went straight to her genital area. At this point, he could have tried to kiss her, or rub her shoulder first, or anything else. But no, he immediately uncover her crotch. All of this, can be construed as an attempt of rape. Doesn't matter whether he assumed she was going to wake up or not, because he did not explicitly try to wake her up. Intention to have intercourse knowing the other person is asleep is an attempt of rape. Obviously, he can change his mind, and the attempt of rape stays JUST an attempt of rape, even for a few seconds. Again, rape did not happen. One can speculate, whether he was going to stop or fully proceed had she not woke up at all.

Also, your claim that he knew she was going to wake up has no basis. At the NREM 3&4 stage of sleep, you are less responsive to the environment and most stimuli cause no reaction. You become even harder to be woken up in the REM stage. Here's just a few examples of how rape can be repeatedly committed to someone during their sleep:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/35025986/my-boyfriend-raped-me-for-a-year-in-my-sleep

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2910936/My-husband-raped-hundreds-times-slept.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11571284/Boy-14-raped-his-sleeping-mother-court-hears.html

http://ktla.com/2014/05/08/man-sentenced-in-sleeping-woman-rape-case-that-changed-state-law/

I have, in the past, heard stories of how some husbands could and had done rape to their wives while they were sleeping. There aren't many cases, but I've heard of them before. On the other side, stories of women who rape their male partner while they're asleep is also not uncommon. Some of the victims woke up in the middle of it, some didn't. You rarely hear of these things, because the victims are unaware of it. Only a few realised this happened and even fewer report their case. The point is, you can't possibly know that Seligman was expecting her to wake up. The contrary is more plausible, because he made no effort in waking her up. You can lift a sleeping person from the couch, carry them to another room without waking them up. You can even jerk their limbs, and they might not wake up. So, rubbing his genital to her can't be considered as an attempt to wake her up.

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[–] LaissezFaire_Aggeliki 9 years ago

OK!

Your point of attempted rape (if even for a few seconds) as a plausible possibility from Seligman's part is strong, given all the arguments and the links you provided.

I give in, and we have an agreement. It's possible that he attempted to rape her, even for a few seconds. Not certain, but possible.

Good job, my dear friend! Thank you for this great discussion! 
😃


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[–] AlexSefton 9 years ago

Yes, I'll settle with plausible possibility. I apologise once again for my wording that implies Seligman was planning to do it while she was sleeping. You're right that most probably he did it out of impulse.

We both agreed from the start that he did not rape her.

I admire your open-minded standpoint on this whole issue, for not being prejudiced against Seligman. And you gave really strong arguments without being too emotionally biased. Thank you for being such a great person.

Have a nice weekend!

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[–] LaissezFaire_Aggeliki 9 years ago

And I admire your sensitivity about the whole rape issue, your pursue for precision on words and facts, your civil manner of debating and your graceful closure.

Please excuse my language mistakes... I'm Greek, so English is not my mother tongue.

It was a joy talking with you.
Be well, don't be too good! 😉

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[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] earl687 11 years ago

I agree it was funny. To me the ending "proved" that joe's opionions on humanity were right on, and Siegelman was just a naive puppet. Joe says that humans are hypocrites, not worthy of democracy and cowardly.... Siegelman displays many of these characteristics with his one action at the end.

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[–] angelx 11 years ago

I thought the ending was way too cynical/too out-of-the-blue-just-to-prove-a-point.

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[–] Madgoodmoves 11 years ago

It's not like she goes around killing hypocrites all the time and heck she barely knew the guy. It doesn't make sense to me to become so involved with a person and to tell them your whole time story then to just shoot them for being on account of wanting to have sex with her. Maybe he thought she would like being with someone that has repressed his feelings. She seemed to get off on having sex with people with problems, she tended to find lust in their oddities. So no to shoot him seems stupid to me.

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[–] andrew-830 11 years ago

All the sex acts she entertained in the movie were initiated by her. At the end Seligman is trying to rape her, however ineffectually it might have been. Big difference.

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[–] jimmydeansmoked 11 years ago

I agree. The attempted rape scene was just to far out of "built" character and left a bad impression in one of the more important sections of the movie.
It should have ended with Seligman leaving the room, a hole appearing in the hanging picture, and an eye peaking through it. Sounds of Seligman moaning while masturbating through some of the credits.

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[–] angelx 11 years ago

^I have to say that would've been a great "compromise" ending. I like that ending better.

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[–] [email protected] (1367) 7 years ago

Yes agreed

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[–] MertAksu 11 years ago

Exactly! I have laughed more than I should've.

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[–] krunall 11 years ago

Even Without that scene the ending was very bad and with that scene it makes the whole two volumes stupid and you feel WTF?

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[–] MartianGhost 11 years ago

I found it humorous, but not exactly laugh out loud funny. I kind of figured he was going to die somehow but trying to have sex with her wasn't what I expected. I thought he would have a had a little more sense than that but oh well.

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[–] liketearsintherain 11 years ago

His small sand worm scared the crap out of her.

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[–] tcob44 11 years ago

His small sand worm scared the crap out of her.

LOL!!!

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[–] liketearsintherain 11 years ago

Just a tiny joke ;) lol

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