MovieChat Forums > Pan Am (2011) Discussion > the anti-German storyline is historicall...

the anti-German storyline is historically inaccurate


I mean, seriously. France under the occupation of Germany was in no way as bad as episode 3 intends to depict it as. Girls all over France were flirting with German officers and soldiers. The occupation was largely peaceful. The resistance/terrorists had much less power and support compared to the insurgents in Iraq and Talibans in Afganistan.

The situation in France was in fact, better than the current situation of Iraq and Afghanistan. There were no suicidal bombings, and no large-scale guerilla warfare or insurgence until the Allied invasion in 1944. The Allies killed more French people than the Nazis, how many people know this fact? Very few. The British in 1940 killed 1300 French sailors, called Operation Catapult. And don't even get started on the bombings in France during 1944.

People are just ignorant. The producer made up a story and they all believe it. I am no Nazi but this anti-German plot is just ridiculous, unneeded, and totally historically inaccurate.

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Breaking down at work (ie on the plane in uniform) is not considered professional in our era. And it also goes against the then image of the stewardess being a sex object.

It is difficult for somebody of my generation and younger to fully comprehend. We only see the history books, movies...etc. Personally having lived through such an amount of casualties is hard to take in.

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My impression is that Collette is of Jewish decent and that her parents were deported and killed. She only survived because she was taken in by neighbors. Though there are a few things I don’t get. If she was French how did she come to survive the war in Berlin? Or were her parents German Jews and she was later adopted by a French family? I hope at some point they give us more of her past.

BTW faith had nothing to do with the Holocaust – it was all about exterminating Jewish bloodlines. In Russia there was a village of Jews who’s ancestors had converted to Christianity an the inhabitants didn't even think of themselves as Jews anymoe and the Nazis still rounded them all up for execution while another village with Russians who had converted to Judaism was left alone.

It is also a little known fact that the last regular units to defend Berlin in April and May of 1945 were Waffen SS units of French volunteers of the 33 SS Charlemagne and Danish, Hungarian, Dutch, Norwegian, Finnish, French, Romanian, Spanish, Swedish, Swiss and British volunteers of the 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland.

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Non-Jewish people also suffered during the war.

Of course the suffering was not limited to Jews, not in a long shot.
They were by far not the only ones being killed by the Nazis, not even the most by numbers. The Jews just have the better lobby in telling their story.

In fact the first to be rounded up in concentration camps were the German communists and other political opponents of the Nazis.
And the first to be systematically killed by the Nazis were the handicapped and mentally ill of Germany.

And even after the invasion of Poland the Jews were mostly “just” rounded up and transported into ghettos. The systematic mass murder on the Jews did not really start until after the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.

And even when the mass killings of Jews reached their peak it never even came close to the mass murders on Soviet POWs:
"The most deaths took place between June 1941 and January 1942, when the Germans killed an estimated 2.8 million Soviet POWs primarily through starvation, exposure, and summary execution, in what has been called, along with the Rwandan Genocide, an instance of "the most concentrated mass killing in human history (...) eclipsing the most exterminatory months of the Jewish Holocaust"."

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The whole series was historically inaccurate and unbelievable.

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Most of your post is a gross oversimplification. You can't estimate how bad it was (for the whole of the population and much less for a single family) based on the number of dead or the number of members of the resistance. By the numbers, France might have weathered the storm a bit easier, mostly because it collapsed quickly and the Nazis quickly expanded their control mechanisms to control the bulk of the population (which had been so successful for over a decade in Germany and the whole Vichy state actually acted as a calming mirage) to the point that it was nearly impossible to even think about resisting (when France fell, Germany seemed unstoppable and likely to conquer all of continental Europe in a manner of months). And maybe the Nazis didn't regard the bulk of the French population in such a low esteem as other races (so they didn't kill them so readily), but that doesn't mean that they didn't use an iron hand or that single families didn't experience catastrophic loss.

It is the differences between "Total War" and a "Police Action". When France capitulated, it was pretty much destroyed: its army and political structure were non-existent. Any form of organized or large scale resistance was not possible and people had to feed themselves, attempting to keep their new overlords happy lest they would decide to starve them. There was no heavy equipment or any considerable number of weapons to arm yourself, France was defeated, and it would have taken years (generation) for an grass root resistance to build up support to rise up against such a powerful invader. Eventually, the same happened to Germany and Japan: they were so utterly destroyed (bombed back to the stone age), that most post defeat resistance was less than pointless and most of the population complied.

With modern wars, or at least in such an unbalanced campaigns as Iraq, the capitulation comes long before the psychological defeat. At the end of WWII, most everybody (on both sides) was way past the point of caring about who won and most countries were in such a state of destruction that all the could do was rebuild to feed their children and themselves. No one was going to try and resist (especially because the US didn't attempt to annex them), and even if they would, it would take generations (what happened with the USSR and Eastern Europe). Today, Japan and Germany are allies of the same countries that defeated them.

Comparing to modern day suicide bomber terrorists is a complete disconnect. Technology allows small numbers of zealots to inflict far more damage that was possible (specially because they plan on dying as a strategy, not a cost that should be avoided when possible). Also, while many of the Nazis' actions were ideologically motivated, most day to day activities had to consider practical matters (ie, the Nazis using "subhumans" as labor rather than just killing them off, or having to come up with efficient ways to kill - ie "The Final Solution"), while the modern day extremist have no practical considerations (ie, to them, the "only good infidel is a dead one").

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Most people in Europe felt that the Germans got off way too easy after the war after the devastation they had brought to the continent. It may have been easy for the Americans to forgive as they weren't taken over by an occupying Army at any point. I had a professor in college who had been a little girl in London during the nightly bombings. I don't think she was very forgiving either. And she hadn't had her parents murdered. I really don't think anyone from Europe who lived through the war was ready to forgive Germany less than 20 years later. Anyone who thinks that is either ignorant or naive or both.

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Sadly, I have to agree with this.

My grandmother was from Germany, and I grew up with a lot of German culture. For example, I grew up in the largest rice producing area of the US but we had potatos with every meal.

Anyway, I got to go stay for a couple of weeks with some German relatives in the early 70s, and when I got back I was excitedly telling someone about it. They told me they could not understand how anyone could want to visit Germany because of what they did to the Jews. I was stunned.

When I lived in Russia in the early 90s I was told to never mention my German heritage. Even then the Russians still held a grudge.

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Starwolf wrote:
"When I lived in Russia in the early 90s I was told to never mention
my German heritage. Even then the Russians still held a grudge."

In some regions of the former USSR, the people tend to have more of a grudge
against the Russians than against the Germans. I have met some Ukrainians
who preferred not to speak Russian and seemed pleased to speak German to me.

Many, if not most, Russians realize that almost all Germans today are not old
enough to have had any responsibility for the war crimes of the Third Reich.
In recent years, there have been some amicable meetings between German and
Soviet veterans of the Great Patriotic War. I doubt that it's true anymore
that most Russians would loathe everyone who has any German heritage.

On the other hand, almost all Americans seem blind to US war crimes and so
they seem ignorant of some compelling reasons that many other people would
have to resent the presence of flag-waving triumphalist "ugly Americans".

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My cousins in Lithuania have admitted their Russian has gotten rusty since they hardly ever use it anymore. One cousin was shocked when I told her I didn't speak Russian. I had to explain that living and growing up in the US, there was no need for me to learn it.

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Srcb2 wrote:
"I had to explain that living and growing up in the US, there was no need
for me to learn it (Russian)."

Yes, some immigrants in the United States eventually forget how to read and
write and sometimes even how to speak fluently their native languages.
There's a joke that goes: "What do you call a person who speaks two languages?
Bilingual. What do you call a person who speaks only one language? American."

By the way, can you estimate how many American schools teach Lithuanian?

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I hope you do know that most german people were brainwashed(esp. the youth) and had no choices at all . It is extremely absurd to make their descendants responsible or ashamed for World War II .There was no way to get out of this horrible dictatorship and if you tried to rebel against him you were instantly killed . I know this from grandma who suffered as a young woman during that time .And yes I agree with the OP ,bringing up that stuff about Colette being against germans was unneeded .Believe it or not Germany 's people today are complete opposite of what you have seen in past .

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As I recall, Adolph Hitler said something to the effect that it wasn't hard to hold France. Although the efforts of the French Resistance was relatively small, it could be very intense. A large percentage of Resistance fighters were leftists. More than a few were dedicated Marxists. Remember, the Nazis believed that they were making war on Communism and the Jews. Many Jews took refuge in France and managed to survive the occupation.

The Germans did commit atrocities in France. They tortured resistance fighters and summarily excecuted groups of people in villages. It wasn't pretty.

Unfortunatly, the war in Europe ended before the Manhattan Project completed its work on the Atom Bomb. It was always intended for use on Germany. The Germans richly deserved a nuclear holocaust. The Third Reich should have ended in a mushroom cloud.

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Echoecho69 wrote:
"France under the occupation of Germany was in no way as bad as episode 3
intends to depict it as."

First of all, after France capitulated in 1940, the Germans did not occupy all
of France. Vichy France (led by Philippe Petain) became the French state in
name and was somewhat independent, though deeply collaborationist, in practice.
So many French people did not have to live immediately under German military
occupation. As for the French people who did live under German military
occupation, their experiences varied greatly. Some French people found that
they could lead almost normal lives under a relatively mild German occupation,
but other French people were ruthlessly oppressed. There was some variation
among the German occupation authorities in their treatment of French people.

I don't understand why one should assume that Colette's experience must have
been typical for all French people under German occupation. There was not
a sole narrative of German occupation that was true for all French people.

Echoecho69 wrote:
"Girls all over France were flirting with German officers and soldiers."

More than a few Frenchwomen became intimate (whether on account of love,
money, or mutual needs) with German soldiers, and these Frenchwomen were
humiliated and punished after the war for their "horizontal collaboration".
The German occupation authorities also established official brothels (with
French prostitutes) for German soldiers. In general, German soldiers were
well-disciplined in their conduct toward Frenchwomen, and German soldiers
were usually harshly punished if convicted of rape. Some people claim that
a Frenchwoman in some regions was less likely to have been raped by a German
soldier under the occupation than by an American soldier during the liberation.
(Already tending to perceive Frenchwomen as available, some American soldiers
expected Frenchwomen to show their gratitude through sexual favours on demand.)

Echoecho69 wrote:
"The occupation was largely peaceful."

Broadly speaking, most French people adopted an attitude of passive
resignation toward the German occupation; only a small minority were active
in the French resistance before the Allies landed in Normandy in June 1944.
Once it became clear enough, however, that the Allies were going to prevail
soon over the Germans, many more Frenchmen joined the resistance so as to
emerge on the winning side. General Eisenhower's declaration that the French
resistance was worth fifteen Allied divisions should be construed more as a
political statement than as an assessment of the Maquis's fighting value.
When, as at Vercors, the Maquis stood up in an open fight against the Germans,
the Maquis usually got the worst of it.

Echoecho69 wrote:
"The British in 1940 killed 1300 French sailors, called Operation Catapult."

Yes, many French people deeply resented the Royal Navy's attack on the French
fleet at Mers-el-Kebir. For a long time, many French people regarded Charles
de Gaulle as a British puppet and and a traitor to the lawful French state,
which was led by Petain. To some extent, Vichy France's military was ready
to fight and did fight against the British. (A Frenchwoman once told me that
she regarded France's most lasting historical enemy as England, not Germany.)

France did suffer considerably, of course, under the German occupation 1940-44.
It's true, however, that many French people had less unhappy experiences than
Colette had, and thus they would have less unfavourable views of the Germans.
But "Pan Am" was not obliged to show what these other French people experienced.
After the war, of course, most French people sought to play down the extent of
their collaboration or even friendship, if any, with the Germans, and sometimes
to play up the extent of their self-described heroic resistance to the Germans.

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"The German occupation authorities also established official brothels (with
French prostitutes) for German soldiers....and German soldiers
were usually harshly punished if convicted of rape. "

This sounds like it could have been a legalized version of rape. A lot of times women are forced into prostitution (either for survival or actually just forced into it).

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Research the Vel D'Hiv. Overview, it was an indoor cycling place that no longer stands. In July 1942, the French police under the orders of the Gestapo rounded thousands of Jews and locked them in this building for days. No clean facilities, no privacy, no respect.

My father in law tells the following story: a cop came the day before and said to hide someplace else in a non Jewish neighborhood. The cops came and took the family, deported them and they were killed in a camp. My FIL comes home and sees he is alone, NO Family.

He joined the French Resistance...We have pictures of him with a gun doing whatever is needed to free is country.

Farewell,and may the blessing of Elves and Men and all Free Folk go with you.

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