MovieChat Forums > Pan Am (2011) Discussion > the anti-German storyline is historicall...

the anti-German storyline is historically inaccurate


I mean, seriously. France under the occupation of Germany was in no way as bad as episode 3 intends to depict it as. Girls all over France were flirting with German officers and soldiers. The occupation was largely peaceful. The resistance/terrorists had much less power and support compared to the insurgents in Iraq and Talibans in Afganistan.

The situation in France was in fact, better than the current situation of Iraq and Afghanistan. There were no suicidal bombings, and no large-scale guerilla warfare or insurgence until the Allied invasion in 1944. The Allies killed more French people than the Nazis, how many people know this fact? Very few. The British in 1940 killed 1300 French sailors, called Operation Catapult. And don't even get started on the bombings in France during 1944.

People are just ignorant. The producer made up a story and they all believe it. I am no Nazi but this anti-German plot is just ridiculous, unneeded, and totally historically inaccurate.

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While watching the "Berliner" episode, I suspected that Collette might be Jewish. Many Jewish children were spared in the holocaust by being cared for by neighbors. When they didn't reveal that Collette was Jewish, I suspected they were leaving it open for a possible future story line. Even if Jewish, she was apparently brought up Christian.

--
Drake

FYI



[spoiler][/spoiler]

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What bothered me was her implied criticism of the US for allying with the enemy, like it was stepping on her families grave. If Colette were a French Jew, then she should be equally resentful of her gentile countrymen who were anxious to appropriate Jewish property for themselves and offer the people to the Nazis in tribute. If Colette were simply a French child of the resistance, then she should be grateful that the Americans cared more about releasing France than her fellow countrymen. But, no she is proudly French! C'est la vie!

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[deleted]

The USA invaded Iraq because they wanted their oil, not because of those ''alleged possession of WMD''. Everyone knew that Iraq had them LONG before the invasion and LONG before the Iran-Iraq War.

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[deleted]

Verlegendvlinder1981 wrote: "Iraq didn't have WMD."
Iraq used chemical weapons against both Iran and Iraq's own Kurdish minority.
Many other countries also have used chemical weapons.

Verlegendvlinder1981 wrote: "Otherwise they would have been found."
If Saddam Hussein really had all the WMD that the United States claimed he had,
why didn't he use any of them when he stood on the brink of absolute defeat?

Verlegendvlinder1981 wrote: "It was just used as a pretext to invade."
The United States embellished or fabricated "evidence" that Iraq was developing
a nuclear weapon, which was allegedly close enough to completion so as to pose
an imminent threat to US interests in the region. It was Iraq's alleged future
nuclear weapons, not its chemical weapons, that was the core of the pretext.

Verlegendvlinder1981 wrote: "That and Saddam's dictatorial rule."
But the United States did not object seriously to "Saddam's dictatorial rule"
when Iraq was at war (including using chemical weapons) against Iran.
For a long time, the US government regarded Saddam Hussein as a useful
dictator who was better than any realistically viable alternative leader.
It's a myth that, acting on moral principles, the United States always
objected to and oppposed "Saddam's dictatorial rule" from its beginning.

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[deleted]

And this is similar to what many are now claiming about Iran.

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"I mean, seriously. France under the occupation of Germany was in no way as bad as episode 3 intends to depict it as."

That has got to be one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on this board, and that's saying a lot. It displays such an astonishing ignorance of history that I have trouble believing you are serious.

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Movie map, you are wrong, the original poster is correct, France survived WWII pretty well compared to nations like Poland or Yugoslavia where millions died. The original poster clearly knows more about the topic than you do, I'm a history major specializing in 20th century European history so I know he's right.

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I'm a history major specializing in 20th century European history so I know he's right.

Heaven help the students you may one day teach.

Nobody mentioned France in comparison to any other nation that was devastated by the Nazis. So what was the point of you doing it? The episode in question presented a very real and plausible circumstance. I went to school in France during the 1970s and, believe me, there were PLENTY of people still experiencing what Colette expressed. Their resentment and bitterness were real. I remember seeing Mel Brooks' The Producers in Paris and the only people who were laughing were the American students in our class.

And France did not have 50 million people during the time of the Occupation. The OP was wrong about this, and implying that, comparatively speaking, not enough people died or not enough destruction took place in France during WWII is beyond ridiculous.

"Thank you, thank you--you're most kind. In fact you're every kind."

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Arm Chair History on their account, right? :)

Nothing beats the truth from people who experienced it or related to someone who has.

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I don't know what your beef with the French is, but rarely have I seen such utter BS from anyone, let alone someone who claims to be a history major!
You are telling people that you knew things, but in reality you know diddly-s hit!
Just because you say "I know this for a fact...!" doesn't make it any more true!

For crying out loud "would of", "should of", "could of" do NOT exist!

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How was it inaccurate? Many French still suffered under German rule and it isn't inconceivable that someone would still be resentful.

This time is ours
Inside a frozen memory of us
And we are motionless, motionless...

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The OP is correct, the French Resistance is largely a myth, very few French were involved in it, this was exposed in the 1972 French film The Sorrow and The Pity.

The French did however suffer from low food rations during the German occupation and many French males were deported to Germany to work in German factories although ironically they were more well fed there than they would have been if they had stayed in France.

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"The occupation was largely peaceful" - are you insane? Seriously. There were thousands of French involved in the resistance and hundreds died. I don't care what film "proved" that the resistance was a "myth." Additionally, France was the only occupied country in Western Europe that passed even stricter anti-Jewish laws than the Nazis already imposed. So if you were in occupied France, and you were Jewish, it was ANYTHING but peaceful. I cannot believe that people actually believe nonsense like some of the things said on this board. WW II revisionism is a dark path that far too many people seem more than happy to go down.

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The population of France is 50 million, thousands killed in the French resistance? You do the Math, it has been exaggerated.

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Josh, most French were not Jewish and took little interest in the fate of the Jews, that's a fact.

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[deleted]

You still don't get it, the myth is that it had huge support, it isn't pro-Nazi to show that if the population of France was 50 million and the French Resistance only had 100,000 members then by percentage THAT'S NOT A LOT OF RESISTANCE.

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People seem to struggle with basic logic, they can't understand that the French had a motive after WWII to claim they were all in the Resistance, their national pride was wounded and other nations were making fun of them just as you always hear this "surrender monkeys" insult thrown around in pop culture even today. What actually happened in France during the German occupation was that you had the two extremes of The Resistance and Collaboration with the vast majority of the population in the middle just trying to survive and stay out of trouble. Few French wanted to take the risk of getting tortured by the Gestapo.

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OK I am going to start off by saying that I know what I am talking about; I am a history BA working on my masters. That being said I can say you are wrong!The war in France was bloody and cruel. French citizens lost family, homes and money in this conflict. Since your comment leads me to believe you have never in fact opened a history text then i will ask if you have seen Saving Private Ryan. The moive depicts France as it was during WW II.Conflict free? As for Any French women who was flirting with a German officer/soilder they would have been labled a trader and could have been put in jail. As for anti-German attitudes I know it happened. My Grandmother was 1st gen. from Germany and had to change her name and accent becuse she was afraid of such happenings. I am not trying to be mean but you should not make light of this war. Also The current war is in no way comparable to WW II

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Butterfly, he never said it was conflict free, he said it was exaggerated and he's correct. You've obviously never seen the film The Sorrow and The Pity by Marcel Ophuls. Also, what happened to the French women who had sex with German soldiers during the occupation and were punished by the French after the German army withdrew certainly can't be blamed on the Germans, that's the fault of the French for allowing that kind of revenge to occur.

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To Butterflylove241-1

How can you expect anyone to take you seriously as having as BA in history and now working on a master's degree? You are in need of a basic English grammar course, one that teaches such things as pronoun-antecedent agreement, capitalization, spelling, punctuation, and the like. And you might also take a course in argumentative writing that would educate you on how to support your arguments with data. But you did give me my laugh of the day with trader/traitor! Ha! Gosh, did no one ever teach you to proofread what you write? Well, American education has been in decline for decades, and you are certainly proof of it.

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I have to say, while I don't usually like to comment on people's grammar (publicly in writing, at least), you make it quite hard to believe that you have a BA in history if you can't spell the word 'traitor'. I, too, was a history major, and with the ridiculous amount of reading and writing we had to do, I am quite disappointed that you have trouble spelling a word that you must've seen on paper several times.

edit: This was aimed at butterfly by the way. I replied to the above poster because I am agreeing with him/her.

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Seriously from what History books are you reading from ? Germany was in a miserable state after World war II .And as for 'Saving private Ryan ' you def. lost the connection to reality . What I want to state here is that there is quite a difference between a movie (may it be as realistic as possible) and real history.

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The typical French person during the German occupation just sought to survive, they didn't love the Germans but they certainly didn't want to get tortured by the Gestapo, so they did not join the small French Resistance. I think you people don't grasp that the whole "everyone was in the French Resistance" myth was created by the French government after WWII to heal their national pride.

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RemiRoyer33 - the exact number is 75,721 French Jews who died because of French complicity in the Holocaust. Does that sound like a peaceful occupation to you? These were FRENCH citizens. Do you understand that? Additionally in 1944 there were about 100,000 members of the French resistance. And yes, over the course of the war at least 1,000 resistance members died.

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And, by the way, in no way does "The Sorrow and The Pity" show that the resistance was a myth.

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It certainly does show that very few French took part in it.

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He said that the French resistance was a myth-wrong, and claimed that the Nazi occupation was peaceful. How do you not understand that both of those statements are 100% incorrect?

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67% incorrect.

Myth-building for the resistance was a national industry in the 40's and 50's, given philosophical credibility by followers of Sartre and nihilist 'year zero' philosophers who ruled the past offside, set everyone's cultural heritage to zero and avoided the question of how France had behaved during the occupation by arguing that it wasn't even a question.

Le Chagrin at La Pitie, one of the greatest documentaries ever made deals with the routine banality of collaboration. It was made at a time when the French still found it very difficult to face the reality of WW2 history. Many of them still do. Louis Malle became an exile after Lacombe Lucien, a film on the same subject and there are still very few films like this today.

When asked about the French resistance after the war, Albert Speer asked 'What French Resistance?' There were heroic French resistance fighters in large numbers but the Resistance was deeply penetrated by German agents and French collaborators. As an organisation, it helped with morale but was not very effective opposition to the Germans with two exceptions - in the South where maquisards maintained some small areas practically free from German control and in the Nord and Pas de Calais regions which had been occupied in WW1 and initially accounted for about 90% of resistance activity.

The idea that the Allies killed more French people than the Germans is utterly ludicrous, as a momentary glance at the casualties in the Battle of France will confirm.

The idea that it was a peaceful occupation is similarly ridiculous when you look at Nazi 'peace-keeping' techniques.

However, the idea that it was welcome to some French right-wingers is supported by the activities of the Milice and many French ministers in in the Vichy cabinet and the truly astonishing number of incidences of French civilians reporting to the Milice and the Gestapo on their neighbours activities. The Polish resistance was able to recover a V1 which landed in a ditch, hide it and ship it to England a task involving over 100 people and known to hundreds more as it was stored and treansported. Nothing remotely on that scale was possible in France because of the level of collaboration.

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~~~~~Louis Malle became an exile after Lacombe Lucien, a film on the same subject and there are still very few films like this today.~~~~~

I thought that it was because the jaunty music by Django Reinhardt was so incongruous.

Armee des Ombres was much better, (especially the tea scene) and Lucie Aubrac wasn't bad. The best scene though is the one in Au Revoir des Enfants when the Boche geezer puts the Milice bastard in his place.

Of course, French wartime collaboration was far less revolting and murderous than Thatchler/Major/Bliar/Brown/Cameron's unctuousness to bUShA.

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

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Well at least the free world now has a new leader to suck up to. And we can look forward to the sight of the next US President bending the knee and kissing her ass.

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[deleted]

100,000 members of the French Resistance in a population of 50 million?

75,000 Jews killed, and there were about 375,000 Jews in France.

So what exactly were the other almost 49 million French citizens doing during WWII? How have you proven that the original poster was incorrect? His statement was that for the vast majority of French citizens life went on as well as possible without violence. How is he wrong?

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The OP's main statement was that the Pan Am plot was BS because there wasn't enough bloodshed in france to make Colette hate the Germans as much as she did, however it's quite obvious that Colette's parents were some of the,

"100,000 members of the French Resistance in a population of 50 million? [or]

75,000 Jews killed, and there were about 375,000 Jews in France."

sooooooooo the plot was, in fact, accurate... it's not like they said at any point in the episode that it was any bloodier then that, the plot was about how the occupation affected Colette, therefore making the OP wrong.

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Exactly. Well stated....

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thank you =D

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People who haven't tried having their country OCCUPIED (by nazis, taliban, vikings, etc.) have no idea what that is like and should refrain from making ignorant statements ;-)

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It wasn't an anti-german storyline. The story was trying to show us that these women popularly regarded as 'sex objects' regarded themselves as professionals.

Collette tried--but failed to put behind a painful personal memory to successfully serve a flight to Berlin with other colleagues. Visiting a country whose people had previously killed her parents was painful for her. She could not hide her lingering hurt and sadness, even though she actually knew that 'not all german people' were responsible.

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I love that some people see everything through the political correctness filter. What in the world did that story line have to do with Collette seeing herself as a professional rising above the sex object role? She was trying to fit in with her friends and not be the one spoiling the party. As much as it was my favorite moment in the show so far, Collette singing Deutschland Uber Alles was a lot of things, but far from professional. She (properly I think) allowed her emotions to override her sense of professionalism in not wanting to embarrass her colleagues.

It was a very "Casablanca" moment by the way.

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RemiRoyer33 - you seem to not only not have a grasp of basic logic, but you seem to lack a grasp of what the word means. Nobody on this board ever claimed that the majority of French were in the resistance. But the idea that the resistance itself was a "myth" (which was the assertion) and that the French as a whole basically took it easy through their part of WW II is completely, without exception, a lie at worst and a complete nonsensical fantasy at best.

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Oh yea OP, it was a non-stop party for the 90,000 French Jews killed by the Nazis.

I feel stupider for having read your post.

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[deleted]