What do you guys think of the portrayal of Rosemary as having 'retardation'? Obviously what they did to her was awful no matter what, but there are conflicting reports about the true nature of her illness. Not much is known about her because so much information was suppressed. Some say she was autistic or had severe learning disabilities, others say she was bipolar or had a similar mental illness, and there are even some who say, having read her diaries and letters, that she was a completely normal young woman whose only problem was her inability to conform to her parents' expectations in Kennedy clan. A doctor who tested her said her IQ was above 75. It is reported that her sister Kathleen thought she suffered from a form of depression that wasn't readily understood by her parents or others. I've never really been sure what to think myself.
I don't think she was fully retarded or anything. She kept a journal and one can deduce that her IQ must have easily been at least 75 or a little over. Granted the entries she wrote were rather childlike, it did show someone who did have a certain function of cognitive ability. My guess (which is all that it is) is that she may have been mildly retarded or even more likely suffered from autisim.
It wouldn't have helped her much that they likely didn't have much in the way of treatment/therapy for such ailments back in those days. It also didn't help her cause that she grew up in a family of such obviously intelligent people. She must have really stuck out badly. I don't think that Joe Sr. had any idea how bad the lobotomy procedure would impair her (or at least one would hope that he didn't). It was a new thing at that time and there wasn't a lot known about it. But it is a very sad story. I don't think Joe Sr. ever visited her after that.
I don't believe enough was known about retardation in the early 20th century and many people who may have been within the low end of a normal IQ, who had learning disabilities, were simply labeled as retarded.
I don't doubt that if Rosemary had learning disabilities, it would have been difficult and extremely frustrating to live in a family where her siblings were highly competitive and her father demanded more than she was capable of doing. She couldn't compete with her brothers and sisters on their level and couldn't live up to her father's expectations.
I feel that what Joe did was terrible. He made the decision to have a lobotomy done on Rosemary, without Rose's knowledge, waiting for her to be out of town for a few days to do it. Rosemary was Rose's daughter too and she should have had a say in any medical procedure done on her child.
Rosemary's behavior and disability could have been dealt with in many other ways.
Do you really expect anything different from a man who was having an affair with his secretary RIGHT UNDER HIS WIFE'S NOSE, and when the were caught kissing, the girl leaves, and he looks at his wife and says:
You guys are taking the events as per the series. These events are largely fictional. No one knows the truth about Rosemary's illness or the circumstances surrounding her procedure, so she may never have really been autistic in the way we think of autism (also, I'm pretty sure Michelle is a fictional representation of the many women in Joe's life.)
Doris Kearns Goodwin in her book "The Kennedys and the Fitzgeralds" indicates that Rosemary was likely mildly retarded. The family was able to work with her, even having her presented at court when Joe was ambassador. But she did begin to have frequent outbursts and meltdowns, possibly brought about by her inability to compete in a highly ambitious and competitive family. There is a hint that she had become sexually aggressive as well. Rose Kennedy handled a dysfunctional marriage by traveling extensively and during one of her trips, Joe had the lobotomy performed on Rosemary. When Rose returned, she was told that Rosemary had been institutionalized and was not permitted to visit. She did not know about the lobotomy until after Joe had his stroke (or after he died). What a complete and utter b_______ that man was!
That's what disappointed me about "The Kennedys". For the first time a mini-series went out of it's way to show the true JFK as a near-cripple while he was in the White House. Then it makes up "flashbacks", as truths. To make it worse, the series was "ok" until Bobby, and Joe Sr. get life changing revelations the very morning before the brother/son is assassinated. There's no way that happened. In fact I read that Joe Sr. freaked out months later in bed to find JFK's casket flag used as a blanket.
Then there's the names of JFK's cabinet. The bald guy called "Dean" during the Cuban Missle Crisis was Adlai Stevenson. The air force general was "Curtis LeMay", not the name used in the mini-series.
As for Rosemary, that is the real tragedy. Is it possible that she was not truly autistic but had Asperger's Syndrome? Think about it, she would throw fits constantly over things she didn't like (that I have read about). The Kennedy family tried to form her to their lifestyle, when it's obvious she wasn't willing, nor able to conform. That's not retardation.
If that's true then in many ways Rosemary was brighter than the entire Kennedy family, yet she wasn't allowed, nor didn't know how to express herself.
Did anyone back then wonder how Rosemary knew how escape from the local Convent on numerous occasions? That's not a sub 70 IQ person.
Rosemary is quite possibly the greatest mystery of the Kennedy family as well as its greatest tragedy. We can theorize about what her condition was until the bowels of Hell freeze solid, and yet the fact remains that by medical standards of the day she was who she was no matter what her intellectual problems might have been. Having said that, almost every description out there is consistent with mild retardation. Mildly retarded folks can be quite clever, as I think we’re all aware.
I was thinking about this a night or two ago and not to toot my own kazoo, it does make a fair bit of sense. Consider this possibility: The family did their very best for Rosie, kept her right up front and excluded her from nothing. They missed the boat though perhaps in one vital area. How many fellers did Kathleen, Eunice, Jean and Pat have through the years compared to Rosemary? Yet there she sat, perhaps the prettiest of them all, undoubtedly keenly aware of just how different she was – if not in the eyes of her family, certainly in the eyes of other boys her age. I don’t recall the exact quote, but in something Rosemary wrote she’d asked why the boys didn’t ask her to dance – boys other than Joe & Jack, that is. Think what that must have been like!
Enter Papa Joe in search of a solution: “Isn’t there something to be done, Doctor Freeman?” Oh yes, said the quack – we’ve actually had quite a bit of luck with this procedure the past few years. It’s very simple and Rosemary will go on to lead a much calmer, happier life.” (Hypothetical as this might be, Walter Freeman gave these same assurances many times, as the film The Lobotomist illustrates.)
(Sexual assault would have been another risk, of course.)
In one of the many books about the Kennedys, one of the nuns who took care of Rosemary(as an adult, not a youngster), said that Rosemary could not dress herself. She was cooperative,and could button some buttons, but needed assistance. Interesting, Rosemary could recite the Hail Mary, and anything she knew by heart were those things she learned before the lobotomy. Even in the era of Joe Kennedy, the lobotomy was not a procedure recommended for mental retardation. It was not even a medically responsible choice at the time either.
Then it makes up "flashbacks", as truths. To make it worse, the series was "ok" until Bobby, and Joe Sr. get life changing revelations the very morning before the brother/son is assassinated. There's no way that happened. In fact I read that Joe Sr. freaked out months later in bed to find JFK's casket flag used as a blanket.
Sometimes events have to be compressed for time. No big deal.
You and I were made for this I was made to taste your kiss We were made to never fall away reply share
Laurence Leamer's book on the Kennedy women had indicated she was mildy retarded as well,back then other possiblties would not have been considered now other conditions are better understood and she could have had one of them.
As to the labotomy Rose asked Katheleen to check into it and she reported to her mom it's nothing we want for "our Rosie".Rose was satisfied with that but of course Joe did it behind her back anyways.
Both Joe Jr and Jack took Rosemary to the local dances and took turns dancing with her.They looked after her they tried to be protective.He was close to her and Kathleen as well.
Eunice was ultimately the sibling who really looked after her and did this until Rosemary passed away.Some of her kids intereacted with Rosemary as did Caroline Kennedy when they would bring her for visit.If you have not read the Leamer book on the Kennedy women I highly reccomend it.Rosemary is not just a footnote in this book on the family.
It seems Rose did not have to push them this way either.Jack would put his name at the top of her dance card then get some of his friends to add theirs(the ones I guess close enough to understand Rosemary) He and Joe would bring her punch and talk to her as well.She was their sister and they looked after her.
A few years back, perhaps a day or two after Rosie passed away I happened to see a CNN interview with Dr. Tim Shriver, her nephew. It was honestly fascinating, in part because of the relatively little we’d heard of Rosemary through the years. As he expressed it, “having Auntie Rosie come for a visit wasn’t much different than having other guests come, except that Rosie stayed longer.” He often swam with her, and was he said amazed by her ability in the pool – she could swim for hours at a time. (The timeframe on this is at least 25 to 30 years after the lobotomy. Tim Shriver was born in 1959.) One of the most beautiful pictures I’ve ever seen was shown during that interview – Rosemary, anywhere between 40 and 60 years old by the looks of her. She wore a one-piece bathing suit and cap and was soaking wet with a wide smile on her face.
We hear so many stories about how competative the Kennedy's are even with each other it's easy to forget the family can be quite supportive of each other.
What I don't get is why they didn't just "hire" some lovely, young gay man to woo and marry her? She would have been satisfied by the attention, protected/taken care of and had low risk of pregnancy. Moreover, they would be able to better keep up the appearance that she was "normal." It might have been a manipulative and controlling solution, but I bet it would have been more effective at reducing her frustration and outbursts than the nuns or the lobotomy knife.
Well, it’s certainly an interesting solution, I’ll give you that. The trouble is that heinous as it is, lobotomy was a new yet perfectly acceptable procedure which did have some beneficial effect according to patients’ families. If you’ve never seen The Lobotomist it might be worth a look.
Its nice to see somebody acknowledging that Rosemary was the best looking of the sisters. She didn't have that masculine feel to her face or the humongous chin. A part of me hates Joe for what he did to Rosemary, yet he didnt have the knowledge that we are privy to. I will say that it sucks that the family essentially seemed to ignore her after that horrible surgery.
He was doing what he thought would help her. It wasn't bc he hated her/wanted her injured.
Re the ignoring, their society did not have the laws...etc for people with disabilities on the books. Yes they had tons of money but even that has limitations.
How were they supposed to take her out and about without her being accepted by that society.
She still would have physically wandered off even with a 'nice' husband--and could have gotten physically lost/hurt herself in some other way. Without the modern neurological prescriptions we do have today, the family actually was trying to help her remain calm.
Joe was trying to 'help' her too with the lobotomy. it did not turn out at all as the doctors said--turned her into a vegetable. We have better treatments, policies and laws in part because of this family's work. They would not have done this without experience with and around rosemary. Sorry but they would not have cared eitherway.
I read somewhere, many years ago, that Joe Sr was afraid of a pregnancy and, being Catholic, an abortion would have been out of the question. There was also mention that she had been sterilized as well.
They're has been a report on Wikipedia made by her sister Eunice that the her sister's mental retardation was caused by the doctors delay in delivering her during birth, which prevented oxygen from the brain.
Another family member stated that she, and a few other children suspected epilepsy, and they noticed symptoms of epilepsy.
I stumbled upon a site talking about the 10 most fascinating and memorable lobotomies, Rosemary was of course on there but it made me think that I understand why Joe would fall for thinking it was a good idea if he was only told about the successes. There were some people who came out fine and claimed they were better. There were 2 at least who ended up dying from the procedure. It's so strange that a surgical procedure can range from good results to death to mentally incapacitated. We will never know what was motivating Joe or how much danger he knew was involved.
I'm not reading your manifesto, keep your damn posts short!
Watching the movie---I instantly thought about that too. The sedative the doctor gave knocked her out---and she was going to be groggy the next day.
This is in line with the drugs back then...really bad quality stuff.
I take daily prescription epilepsy medications which do not 'knock me out' much has improved since then.
I am only 'knocked out' with drugs in the very rare occasion I am in the emergency room with a break through seizure and then it is not as long as indicated in the film either. That seems dangerous on regular occurrence!!
They WERE one of America's wealthiest families---this is how primitive medicine was.
Drugs for epilepsy had really bad side effects back then. I myself had at one point also been on some of the early ones like phenobarbital and dilantin.
Abortion was illegal in the 1930's yes....but we do forget that it honestly never stopped a womanizer like Joe Kennedy. It actually would not bother him at all. Remember he had mistresses...as did his sons.
And he would have always found an 'exception' for his own family. Sterilization is supposedly against Catholic doctrine too.