MovieChat Forums > The Vampire Diaries (2009) Discussion > Damon is horrible

Damon is horrible

posted 8 years ago by HP_HG_Fan
434 replies | jump to latest

I was watching some scenes from the past seasons and am utterly disgusted by the way he treated people. I was in my late teens when the show first came out and at the time I saw him as a bad boy who was also insanely attractive, I overlooked his awful traits.Now I'm shocked at how I let it all slide and fawned over him with my friends as we watched episode after episode.

What exactly is good about Damon? Especially back then, what redeeming qualities did he have? The fact that he was nice to Elena? If a guy hurt and tried to kill my friends, raped one of my best friends, killed my brother, told me that he would "gladly" let my other best friend die so that she may sacrifice herself for me and all of the other shi!tty things, I would want him dead. The series made Elena look like a terrible friend and sister, as well as a fake hypocrite. I am also disgusted that Bonnie is now his "best friend" after the way he treated her and what he did to Caroline. And some Bonnie fans actually want her to be paired with this awful creature?

S.P.E.R.M member 270

[–] cocogurl-95192 8 years ago

Damon Salvatore is big reason why I started to hate this show. Not necessarily him specifically (I actually used to be a big fan), but the writers obsession with him and their constant desire to try to convince everyone that he was someone they should root for and sympathize with even though he does little that's worthy of sympathy. Granted, they do this with a lot of characters in their show, it's just they pull it off better with some. Damon is not one of those characters, imo. I actually feel more sympathy for Klaus than I do Damon.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

I actually root for Klaus Mikaleson, because of his growth, character direction, and backstory shown in TO, he's had 10x the mental and physical abuse any character from either show has had. He's grown 10x more in 3 seasons of his own show than Damon has in 7 seasons of his, and, he's conatnly showed that he has truly always wanted the best for him and his family.

[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

Agree--and we as the audience see the consequences with Klaus. Admittedly, he and the others do deserve a lot worse (they all deserve to be dead in hell, tbh), but with Damon there are literally NO consequences, just rewards and constant adulation. And there has been no growth, beyond him not killing Bonnie, I guess.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

See I agree, and Damon (doing good for Bonnie, Stefan, Elena, and even Jo) was kind of likeable in S6, he's almost two different people in S6 and S5. It's almost like there's supposed to be so much development in 1994. Problem is, it's never shown, what did he and Bonnie talk about? Did Damon admit all his wrongs? Did he really show remorse? Why was Bonnie boarderline in love with the guy? Of course that all doesn't matter because he regresses in S7.

[–] cocogurl-95192 8 years ago

Exactly. It amazes me just how much growth he has on TO and I applaud the effort the writers put into his character. The writers actually give us real reasons to sympathize with Klaus and show us why he's so angry and violent, and paranoid. I mean, the abuse he endured in his life, that's the kind of abuse that could easily break a person down. I don't fully understand why they didn't flesh Damon's character out as much. I'm sure they try, but it just doesn't always ring true to me.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Damon's abuse is almost a joke (pre-vampire) he was a soldier who ended witnessing a mini slaughter because of his brothers letter apparently (lol) as a kid his father was unfair because he made Damon eat his pet turkey. The most abuse he endured was obviously Augustine torturing him for 5 years. Doesn't really balance out his multi-decade murder spree.

[–] cocogurl-95192 8 years ago

You'd think that with how good they've been in developing Klaus, the writers would be able to come up with something equally as good for Damon. :(

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

I know, but all they keep giving us is his now tiring one liners and a scene about how he cares what happens to Stefan and Bonnie.

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

Lol growth the writers have effectively killed Klaus's character on the TO and the sh!tty ratings for the show clearly show many ppl feel the same. Another problem with TO is the constant focus on boring characters like Hayley. TO has been ruined by the PC police so sadly a once promising show has been ruined. That's ok though because personally I only count Klaus time in TVD as canon.

[–] cocogurl-95192 8 years ago

I love TVD Klaus, but I couldn't have watched three whole seasons of Klaus constantly being an a**hole on TO. And since TO is supposed to be Klaus' redemption story, he had to evolve beyond that. But whether he's one TVD or TO, Klaus Mikaelson is a million times more entertaining to me than Damon's been in seasons.

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

Well Klaus being the *beep* is what made him popular to begin with lol but yes I get the whole point of TO was for his redemption arc I just don't like how they are getting there. But we can agree one thing at the very least Klaus is a much more interesting character than Damon.

[–] cocogurl-95192 8 years ago

To each their own, I guess. I've actually been enjoying the journey that Klaus has been on in TO. :)

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

IN the end though Klaus will still have the people who stand by him as well no matter how many times he has hurt them. He has killed people Elijah has cared for and yet Elijah will always come back to stand by his side.

Who on the show has paid actual long term to equal to the wrong that they do?

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

Well that is called the unconditional love of family something Elijah says in the pilot of TO. That doesn't mean Elijah has forgiven him for everything which was shown in the show.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

But still KLaus still has him standing by him. just like how some have a problem with Damon having people who he has hurt stand by him. Family or not for Elijah to overcome the things that Klaus has done to hurt him enough to still stand by him is a big thing to overcome.

The talk is off Damon being the bad brother to Stefan, yet just as Damon killed Lexi, Klaus has harmed and killed some of the people that Elijah has cared for.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

The difference is we've come to know they've betrayed Klaus about as much as he's betrayed them and he stands by them, Damon situation isn't the same.

[–] cocogurl-95192 8 years ago

That's true. I feel, though, that the writers of TO have done a better job of at least allowing the other characters to have their own feelings about his behavior. And Klaus, on some level, even seems to acknowledge that they're right. Klaus even has a couple of characters who straight up hate him and they're not immediately written off by the show as bad guys for doing so. I mean, the show still has it's flaws and things I would change if I could, but overall, I feel like the writers have been more fair in how present Klaus on the show. Sometimes they want us to feel bad for him and other times, they seem perfectly comfortable showcasing the fact that Klaus can totally be a monster sometimes and it's not always excusable.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

So S7 of TVD was not all about literally every single character being allowed to voice their opinions about Damon's behaviour past and present? You have got to be kidding me?
Rayna? Valerie? Bonnie? Stefan? Enzo? Lily? Alaric? Caroline? Tyler?
All of these characters were allowed to validate their anger and sometimes hatred of Damon without being vilified in the narrative.There was literally nothing in the narrative last season that justified Damon and vilified those that opposed him. Even when he was doing terrible things to save Bonnie from those pills, the narrative still painted his actions as wrong or bad and had characters voice those opinions ( like when he killed Beau ).
Klaus made a sacrifice for his family at the end of S3, a true sacrifice...for once. Great, that is character development. Damon is already many steps ahead of him. He has already sacrificed his happiness for Stefan (and vice versa)many times. Damon has also done the same for Elena ( when she erased her memories), and for Bonnie (several times last season).

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] cocogurl-95192 8 years ago

Yeah, but that's the first time in a long time where the characters were actually allowed to be angry with Damon for longer than 5 minutes. But the writers are still intent on trying to make us all believe that Damon is actually friends with these people, which rings false to me. Not only does it feel false, but it feels unearned since I still don't believe he's really remorseful about anything he's done to any of them in the past. That's why I think TO has done a better job. Klaus has people who love him, but they have absolutely no problem being angry with him and holding grudges (and they do often). Then he has people who downright hate him and merely tolerate his presence and they aren't automatically dismissed as the bad guys for doing so. TO, imo, has just been better in writing Klaus in a way that makes us empathize with him without trying to make us forget all the horror he has caused.

As Damon's growth compared to Klaus' we'll have to disagree on that. If I thought Damon had grown even half as much as Klaus has, I would be more than happy to root for him. I just haven't seen it.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Yeah, but that's the first time in a long time where the characters were actually allowed to be angry with Damon for longer than 5 minutes.

Actually, S7 was an amplified version of what has been a running theme throughout the entire show.
You don't believe that Damon feels remorse for his actions, that isn't the view or the narrative of the show. It has been made pretty clear on several occasions that Damon processes guilt and remorse very differently. Damon shows his remorse in his actions...he does not waste time paying lip service with overblown apologies that mean nothing without actions to back them up. I do agree that there are some things that Damon would not apologise or feel remorse for because he isn't sorry....it's how he rolls but at least he isn't fake about it.

lol, Klaus is over 1000 years old and a great character....but, he should be way more evolved than he actually is

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] cocogurl-95192 8 years ago

That's the thing, I don't even feel the remorse in his actions. It always feels like he's more sorry for the potential consequences that could rise up because of his actions--particularly when it comes to his relationship with Elena.

lol, Klaus is over 1000 years old and a great character....but, he should be way more evolved than he actually is

Again, agree to disagree. Because considering how emotionally and mentally messed up he, the fact that he's even come this far is pretty great.

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

And Klaus has paid a million times over for what he's done, that to me is why I can somewhat sympathize with his character more than I can with Damon. What he's going through now is a very good example of that.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Exactly, thank you.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Tell that to Elena, or Aunt Jenna or Tyler or even Katherine.
I like and enjoy the character of Klaus, he is the catalyst of all the best storylines in TVD. I loved to hate him and I do sympathize with his character, but to say he paid for what he has done is a stretch.....especially when you consider why he did the things he did to the characters in TVD.
I've never really liked Elijah...he is a monumental hypocrite.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ThinkBfourUSpeak 8 years ago

but to say he paid for what he has done is a stretch.....

I've never really liked Elijah...he is a monumental hypocrite.

^ this

------Choose your relationships wisely. It's better to be alone than to be in bad company------

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

What Klaus has done was never swept under a rug either, that's the difference. He's a monster and has always been categorized as such. I can be somewhat sympathetic, but I can't wholly sympathize with him because of what he's done. You provided a good example with Katherine. What he did to her was disgusting. I mentioned the whole Tyler/Carol situation not too long ago because I remember how Tyler (illogically) was blamed for Carol's death by a lot of fans. But Klaus' actions were his own, they didn't change the narrative to say that it was someone else's fault when he chose to be a jackass.

And we share the same opinion on Elijah. I started off liking him but he has slowly become one of the biggest hypocritical characters ever introduced. I can't stand him.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

What Klaus has done was never swept under a rug either, that's the difference.

Yes it was. Klaus actions have been mitigated just as much as the guys in MF have. In S4 he was an ally, even recruited to take a turn at babysitting a compelled Damon. He got romanticized scenes with Caroline complete with pony drawings in S3 and S4 and even got a hero moment in the S4 finale.
Klaus's villain status started to wane the minute they started woobifying him with fantasies of long ago friendships with Stefan, and parents that wanted to kill him and siblings for being the monsters they created.

I remember how Tyler (illogically) was blamed for Carol's death by a lot of fans. But Klaus' actions were his own, they didn't change the narrative to say that it was someone else's fault when he chose to be a jackass.

Maybe, but they definitely skewed the narrative to make Tyler look like a turd when he retaliated at Caroline in anger after she slept with Klaus by having St Stefan come to her defense. Klaus killed his Mom, he had a right to be angry at her just like Caroline had a right to be angry at Elena for being with Damon after he tried to kill her. The difference is Damon had done many things by this point to prove and show how he had begun to change including save her and Tylers life not to mention Elena's. Klaus had done nothing to earn what he got from Caroline in comparison...at least not in Tylers eyes.

The truth is where Klaus is concerned is that they wanted a spin off show and Klaroline was a popular ship. End of, it wasn't organic and it wasn't even part of the source material.
That said, I have enjoyed The Originals on their spin off...though TVD is still my preferred show. I like Klaus, I like his story, I root for him to be better and to heal and enjoy his family again but everytime I rewatch 2x21 I want to stake him. Gah..poor aunt Jenna. I can still hear Elena's screams and pain when he killed her and that funeral scene with Birdy playing in background just guts me every single time.

A

nd we share the same opinion on Elijah. I started off liking him but he has slowly become one of the biggest hypocritical characters ever introduced. I can't stand him.

Well there isn't many of us in this club but I don't care. He is a dick and always was.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

They dealt with Klaus' presence, they didn't ally with him and say he's so, Stefan or Damon calling him to help solve complications in MF is by no means forgiving him for what he's done. Even when saved everyone in S4 finale he did not get one thank you from Elena, Stefan, or Damon. Giving Klaus his own villains I.e his own family, doesn't woobify him either.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

They dealt with Klaus' presence, they didn't ally with him and say he's so, Stefan or Damon calling him to help solve complications in MF is by no means forgiving him for what he's done.

This is exactly how the majority of the Mystic falls gang treat Damon. They team up with him because they need him and he gets stuff done, but it's clear to me that he is not forgiven for everything he did by everyone. He is mainly tolerated because he is Elena's boyfriend, and before that Stefan's brother and because despite doing terrible things he had started to make amends and atone for some of things he did.

Even when saved everyone in S4 finale he did not get one thank you from Elena, Stefan, or Damon

.

Well saved Damon off screen so maybe there was a thank you off-screen too, lol. Anyway, the whole point of that scene was to give him a hero moment for the Klaroline ship.
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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Yes, it was a hero moment, but he was treated as a hero, and that's what everyone's discussion is about, Damon has Bonnie, Alaric, Enzo, Elena, he had Liz, and he has Stefan and even Matt and Tyler tolerate him, he's constantly saved with no thought about it, like what was Matts logical reason for not letting Damon get killed by Bonnie? Why did he shoot first with Stefan but only questioned Damon and Enzo? Damon's coffin SL was the first time in a long time anybody didn't forgive him within one episode, and it was completely stupid because we had to throw in Alaric and Enzo as if they're close to Damon at all in 2 seasons.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

The coffin doesn't even count because they were angry he took himself out of their lives. They were angry because they loved him so much. Of all the things Damon has done, that's the one 'crime' that was unforgivable? Nope.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Well because you just agreed that Klaus was portrayed as having a hero moment and was romanticized to service his male lead role on his new show.

Damon's coffin SL was the first time in a long time anybody didn't forgive him within one episode,

Nope, this is just not true at all. You are confusing Damon with Stefan.
Damon is a lead character, with that comes a degree of plot armour and grace at times from the other characters, but having said that..there are examples in the show that explain why Damon earned the friendships and loyalty that he did.

Stefan has had exactly the same treatment but with very little comparably to earn it.

So has Elena.

Honestly, I just feel like this is nitpicking and hair splitting so that you and others can justify enjoying a character that is very similar to Damon. I like both, I like both shows.

BTW- Matt shot Stefan blind....he did not know it was Stefan when he shot. JS!

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

The discussion wasn't even about comparing Klaus and Damon, it was about Damon. You and others are bringing up Stefan and Klaus.

When's the last time it took more than 2 episodes for someone to forgive Damon?

Stefan was hated by Caroline for friend zoning her for like half a season lol. He was also hated by Enzo for no reason, Alaric forgave him after 1 episode I guess, but his beef was ridiculous anyway. Point being, I don't have them confused.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

You also have cases of some being hypocritical and blaming Damon for all of the problems that happened in Season 7. When all of their actions lead to the problems and the fall out in Season 7.

Alaric was selfish by lying about the Stone.

Enzo raised up Rayna and put Bonnie in danger and made selfish moves for himself at the Armory.

Stefan's decisions lead to him and Damon being stuck in the stone.

Yet three years later when Damon wakes up, they all get to express their anger at him as if Damon's desiccation is the only decision that was made during that time period that lead to people getting hurt or being put in danger. Enzo gets to be self righteous with Damon. But, when has he faced real consequences for all of the selfish decisions that he made in Season 7 that lead to people getting hurt or put in danger?

Enzo gets to have a revenge plan against Stefan for no reason and have Damon become his friend again.

[–] lindsay-kneece 8 years ago

Stefan was hated by Caroline for friend zoning her for like half a season lol.

They did that to keep Steroline apart with relationship drama not bc the hatred was well-deserved.

The Enzo hating Stefan SL was ridiculous. They were just creating pointless drama that they realized was a terrible idea after the fact.

They have these characters accept past transgressions when its necessary bc they work together so often to take down the foe of the moment. You can't have them constantly at odds with a show like this

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

That's my point that it's happened and ridiculous.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

They just had Enzo wanting revenge on Stefan, because they didn't know what to do with him after Season 5. They thought that attaching him to the Salvatore's would make people care about him more. So, after the revenge on Stefan story line didn't work, they attached him to Lily and then put him with Bonnie and now he has the going dark story line with Damon. Because they failed to make lots of the viewers care about Enzo on his own and as his own character.

How many would care about a solo rescue Enzo mission right now if Damon didn't also need to be pulled back from the evil force taking them over. It comes off as Enzo having a obsession or an attachment to the people in Damon's life or close to Damon,with his storylines being with Stefan,Lily, and Bonnie.

[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

Me too. And, I mean, what makes the bad boy compelling is that they're bad, right? Damon was appealing in seasons 1/2 (maybe 3, I don't remember) because he was bad and the audience knew it. But now, despite the fact that Damon does bad thing after bad thing, the show is portraying him as the hero of this show, who deserves constant mollycoddling, saving and support from people he has harmed AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. He isn't even the bad boy you hate to root for anymore, he is a weak little bitch. He abuses women, betrays his friends repeatedly, and kills for the sake of killing. What is there left to like about this man!?

[–] ditzymuffin 8 years ago

He isn't even the bad boy you hate to root for anymore, he is a weak little bitch.

 Preach!.

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

There is plenty of reasons to sympathize with Damon and Klaus both are damaged souls which makes their characters interesting to watch. Look you can hate Damon all you want but there is a reason why he is very popular and its more than just his looks. He reflects the complexity of human nature and many ppl can relate to that. And I guess that touches a nerve with you ppl here.

[–] ditzymuffin 8 years ago

Look you can hate Damon all you want but there is a reason why he is very popular and its more than just his looks. H

I sincerely doubt that. Seriously though we will always disagree about Damon. Where you see complexity I see shallowness, stupidity, and stagnation.

And I guess that touches a nerve with you ppl here.

What touches a nerve is that all the other characters are twisted and bent to justify Damon's presence in the group when it makes no sense because he's still a violent, lying, manipulator who has done very little to justify people's attachment and devotion to him. Matt blame's his sister's murder on Katherine, seriously?!

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

I sincerely doubt that. Seriously though we will always disagree about Damon. Where you see complexity I see shallowness, stupidity, and stagnation.

Well the beauty of opinions is its all subjective there is no hive like mentality. I wont tell you the way you feel about Damon is wrong you will see from his character what you wanna see no one can change your mind on that. I just hope you realize Damons looks is a big plus but its not the only reason hes liked.

What touches a nerve is that all the other characters are twisted and bent to justify Damon's presence in the group when it makes no sense because he's still a violent, lying, manipulator who has done very little to justify people's attachment and devotion to him. Matt blame's his sister's murder on Katherine, seriously?

!
You see the issue here is no one is a saint in this show. It would be hypocritical of the characters to be self righteous towards Damon when they all have done some cruel sh!t especially ripper stefan.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Well the beauty of opinions is its all subjective there is no hive like mentality

True, and that's all they are, opinions. They are not based in the reality of the what is being shown onscreen.
There is plenty of growth in Damon's characterisation for those that choose to see it, there is also regression at times but that is the journey. The only character stuck in the past, unable to move on and grow is Stefan. Throughout season 7 his attitude to Damon was a throwback to S1 negating all the growth achieved in S6 when Stefan thought Damon had died for good. It was perplexing to the majority of fans and the media whether they were fans of Damon or not. Talk about twisting and bending facts to prop up a character...it was a major flaw in the writing in S7 and a retcon of previous storytelling.
At times I really felt like they were going to actually GO there with Stefan only to see them back out and not commit fully to exploring the darkest parts of that character and let him own it. Now the "Ripper" is a hereditary gene. THAT my friend is stagnation and poor character development.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

I sincerely doubt that. Seriously though we will always disagree about Damon. Where you see complexity I see shallowness, stupidity, and stagnation.

 Stagnation???????

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

[–] ThinkBfourUSpeak 8 years ago

when the show first came out and at the time I saw him as a bad boy who was also insanely attractive, I overlooked his awful traits.Now I'm shocked at how I let it all slide and fawned over him with my friends as we watched episode after episode.

So true. There are so many things when as a young audience we enjoy but as we grow older we see the absurdity of what we used to like. I can actually say the same thing for Klaus but Klaus is still much much better than Damon in my eyes.

------Choose your relationships wisely. It's better to be alone than to be in bad company------

[–] ditzymuffin 8 years ago

There seems to be two dominant perspectives here. One is extremely Damon centric to the point where anything he does is fair because according to them the world/TVD revolves around him. The other side pretty much argues that there is more to the world/TVD than Damon and that other perspectives need to be taken into account to form a richer story. It's a vampire story we all understand that and we all suspend our beliefs for the supernatural bits. What we don't suspend our beliefs for is the emotional parts. We expect logic. We expect realistic reactions to incredible situations (even if we happen to disagree with the reaction). So when Damon attempts to murder someone in his inner circle I want repercussions. That *beep* is serious. I want to see it dealt with. I don't want it swept under the rug. Because if it is than what was the point in doing it one the first place?

Also I'd like to point out how sick and tired I am of Damon fans acting like criticizing Damon means the critic can't handle moral complexity and adult material. I watch Game of thrones, Narcos, Dexter, True Blood et cetera. Next on my list is Breaking Bad. I handle sex and violence on my tv screen just fine. TVD is just weak *beep*

What offends me is how the writers are either too stupid or too scared to follow through with the scenarios they set up. What I can't stand is that the writers are so protective of their favorites they won't let them face realistic consequences of their actions (and this is not exclusive to Damon). I hate how they retcon history to suit their new fangled short term story goals rather than working with the shows history I an organic manner. And good lord don't get me started on the way they sweep thing under the rug by lobotomizing their characters.

[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

What offends me is how the writers are either to stupid or too scared to follow through either the scenarios they set up.
What I can't stand is that the writers are so protective of their favorites they won't let them face realistic consequences of their actions (and this is not exclusive to Damon). I hate how they retcon history to suit their new fangled short term story goals rather than working with the shows history I an organic manner. And good lord don't get me started on the way they sweep thing under the rug by lobotomizing their characters.



Sometimes I almost wish I hadn't started paying attention, because I really do feel like this show could have been "epic", but the showrunners are truly awful. They are better suited to procedurals, where you don't have to actually craft a story and the characters are bland. She should be thankful that casting is so good, because the actors have been carrying this show for awhile.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Agreed, I'm also sick of the Damon argument deflection, how many times have Stefan, Klaus, or another been brought up in this thread as a comparison to Damon. Ridiculous.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

I think that it's fair for others to be brought up. Like Katherine's rape of Stefan and since the Damon fandom is being accused of whitewashing over his actions, when fans of other characters do it. I say again that if the problem with the writers wbitewashing Damon's rape of Caroline is discussed, that their doing the same with Katherine and Stefan should be discussed. Or if some don't care about what Katherine did to Stefan, then it's a case of being Anti-Damon and not discussing the fact that the problems with the shows writing aren't just limited to Damon and the fandom excusing wrong doings of characters is not limited to the Damon fandom.

When Damon fans bring up other characters problematic actions, you also have people in the fandom who bring up what Damon has done wrong. When Stefan's wrong doings are brought up you have his fans bringing up what Damon did. So in this fandom when someone's faves wrongdoings get brought up you have fans being up what others have done wrong.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

For them to be brought up is fine, but to deflect with Stefan, Klaus, Kai every single time he's brought up is ridiculous. Katherine's crimes were never really whitewashed on the show, just by fans. She eventually paid for it all, she watched her daughter die, was rejected and killed by "the love of her life" Stefan.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Her rape of Stefan wasn't addressed by the show anymore than Damon's of Caroline's was. She is still shipped with Stefan despite the fact of compelling him because she wanted him and was romantically interested in him. Her rape of Stefan isn't brought up as much as Damon's is of Caroline's.

And I find it hypocritical for the same people have a problem with Damon or the Damon fandom to ignore their faves wrong doings. Especially if the same who focus on Damon, will whitewash and excuse their faves wrong doings and actions, then that is no better than the Damon fans who won't acknowledge Damon's rape of Caroline or Damon's other harmful actions towards people.

If some call Damon out, but then turn around and say Stefan is unproblematic then they have no room to talk.

If some accuse Damon fans of overlooking Damon's actions, but then you have fans of Stefan/Klaus/Kai doing the same and they don't also call out those fans then there is no room to talk.

If some have a problem with Damon fans whitewashing over Damon's abuse of Caroline, but see Kai fans who blame Bonnie for what Kai did to her in 1994 and blame Bonnie for what Kai did to everyone post 1903, and they don't have a problem with Kai fans doing it then there is no room to talk.

I bring up the others in the thread because the writing for the show is not the only thing that has been discussed. The fact is that Damon fans have been attacked when not all Damon fans excuse and whitewash his actions and some acknowledge his wrong doings. Those Damon fans that whitewash Damon's rape of Caroline are wrong, but so are the fans of other characters who do the same for their fave.

In that case no fan of Stefan or Kai can bring up Damon's wrong doings when Stefan and Kai's wrong doings are discussed, because fans of both characters will bring up what Damon has done wrong, if a Damon fan has brought up what Stefan or Kai has done wrong. It happens all of the time in this fandom. Again why act like certain behaviors are limited to the Damon fandom?

When a Delena fan mentions how they think that Stefan abuses Elena, then you will have a Stelena/Stefan fan come along and point out how they think that Damon abuses Elena in return. Damon's wrong doings are often brought up in defense of Stefan, when Stefan's wrong doings are mentioned. They are brought up to make it seem like Damon is worse.

Damon's wrong doings will also be brought up in defense of Kai.

If Damon fans behavior are going to be part of the discussion then I think that is's fair to mention how it's a problem with other fans of other characters doing the same things that Damon fans get accused of are part of the problem.

I happen to think that some fans have the same mentality of excusing their fave characters wrong doings, as the writers have when it comes to Damon's rape. Excusing Damon's rape, blaming Bonnie for Kai's abuse of her. All on the same level of wrong to me. Because it shows a problem with real world rape culture and how abuse victims get treated and blamed for people defending rapist/abusers.

If some think that it's only Damon's abusive actions that should be discussed on the show then that proves my point of Damon's wrongdoings getting focused on while others get excused for their abuse and murders.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

I am a Damon fan that dislikes Stefan. I have never started a discussion thread that is derogatory to Stefan for the sake of it. I will bring Stefan and others into the discussion to make my point (usually to defend and anti-damon post that I feel is unfair)but I don't need to deliberately post hate threads to bash a character I don't like. I/we in the Damon fandom rarely do this (twitter fanatics aside), despite popular belief. Arguments tend to ensue when a fan will respond to an anti-post first. Just like this thread.

It's clear that some people think their opinion is the only valid one and everyone else is just deflecting. They think that when they make posts that they are arguing a point and not merely deflecting...because only Damon fans do that. That defending, whitewashing and understanding every character except Damon is reasonable but somehow Damon fans are not allowed to do the same??

Ultimately, I don't care because the show supports my reasonings and not theirs and that is why they are mad.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

I mean if someone mentions Kai's abuse of Bonnie or brings up the things that Kai has done to hurt Bonnie, you will often see on here, twitter, or tumblr some fan of Kai or who favors Kai, to bring up how Damon has hurt Bonnie, even bringing up how Damon bit Bonnie in Season one when she was possessed by Emily.

And will debate on how Damon has treated Bonnie worse or hurt Bonnie worse as part of their defense of Kai's hurtful actions towards Bonnie. And overall when Kai murdering people is brought up then his fans will point out how Damon has killed more people or how Damon's motives are worse than Kai's for killing and will try to point out how to them, Damon's reasons for killing aren't as understandable's as Kai's. Saying that Damon has killed more people or whatever else they can come up with to try and make Kai look better by making Damon look worse.

And now some don't want Kai's actions to be mentioned when Damon's wrong doings are brought up, but it's fine for Damon's wrong doings to be brought up any time that Stefan/Kai/Enzo etc... fans want to bring up what Damon has done wrong as part of their defense of their fave or when they want to make their fave look better by painting Damon's actions as worse. Stefan/Kai/Enzo fans all have compared what Damon has done to what their fave has done, so why is it deflecting when only Damon fans do it.

Even in the case of some thinking that Damon is written as the hero and that others like Kai or Katherine are written like villains who pay for their crimes, you still have their Stans who take on their own mindset and don't see their faves as villains and will paint them as hero's in their minds, even if the writers don't.

The writers don't make some Kai fans excuse and whitewash his actions to make him seem like this misunderstood guy, who they will blame everyone else except for him for his wrongdoings.

In the case of Katherine, her relationship with Stefan is shipped and sometimes hyped up to have been something romantic and great by fans who ship them together, despite the fact that she compelled Stefan to be with her. Whenever the history of their relationship was discussed between Stefan and Katherine, was her compelling him ever mentioned in the form of a rape discussion? The writers gloss over that in the same way that they do with the Damon/Caroline situation.

And would some agree with Damon and Caroline being hyped into something romantic, in the same fashion that Stefan/Katherine have been at times? Are their fans who think that Damon raped Caroline, but will also ship Stefan/Katherine together?

[–] orgine 8 years ago

Don't forget Kai. You can bet your life that awesomebamon will always bring him up.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Yes him too, which more ridiculous since he dies in the same season he debuts in.

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

That's why it's a moot point with his character. He literally died the way he came in: evil.

Katherine is another one that died and literally went to hell, so in the writers eyes, she was never redeemed either.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

[–] orgine 8 years ago

But that's what's so fascinating about Kai / Bonkai. The character only existed for a season and there was never a 'cannon' romance between him and Bonnie. Yet Bamon shippers, who've been waiting for something to happen between Bonnie and Damon for SEVEN YEARS see Bonkai as their biggest threat. I think it says a lot.

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

I don't get it at times because mentioning him at this point makes no sense, he's dead. I could understand if he was still around and constantly causing Bonnie and everyone in his path pain, but he isn't. It also helps that Kai was categorized as a monster on the show, there was never a time when this was questioned.

Constantly comparing Damon to someone that was brought in to antagonize these characters and nothing more makes no sense, at this point I would think Enzo would be a better comparison.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

He's dead, but he is still brought up when some Kai fans want to bash Damon for his wrong doings, especially when it comes to Bonnie. And Kai can and will be discussed, especially when even if he is dead, Bonnie and Damon still get blamed for his actions and wrong doings. Some of his fans won't let Bonnie not forgiving him go and Damon is blamed for Bonnie locking him in 1903. In that case fans of Bonnie/Damon, but especially Bonnie will defend her when you have cases of Delena/Elena Stans blaming Bonnie for what Kai did in post 1903 and for not forgiving him.

Dead or not, it's not fair for Bonnie to be dragged down for Kai's actions or because she didn't forgive him. Kai being dead doesn't stop him from being discussed in current events, especially with Elena's coma.

ETA: Others won't just admit to the fact that Bonnie locked Kai in the prison world because he was a villain who abused her and did her wrong. Bonnie was painted as the bad guy by many and she wasn't cheered for as someone striking back at the the villain.

Kai was painted as the man who was being redeemed and who wanted to be good and Bonnie was blamed for turning him bad again. Instead of him coming back and doing what he did post 1903 being seen as the product of him being a monster/psychopath. It would be one thing if everyone accepted him as a monster instead of acting like Bonnie was the bad guy in the situation.

Although I have brought up Enzo.

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

Bonnie has been dragged since season 2, literally. These fans find reasons to hate Bonnie. There was Bonnie hate when she tried to kill Klaus in season 2, even though Klaus had been terrorizing them all and had just killed Jenna. Had Kai stabbed Elena or Caroline you wouldn't see half of the Kai sympathizers that you see now. It was Bonnie so a lot of these folks were probably applauding when he was terrorizing her.

I have never seen Damon get blamed for anything Kai did, Bonnie yes, I've seen that a lot, but never Damon. It's always Bonnie. Bonnie. Bonnie.

The only time I saw Damon vs Kai was when there were a lot of fans that believed Bonnie and Kai, sometime down the road, would or could become a thing. Other than that possibility of redemption it's pointless, because contrary to a lot of these Bonnie hating fans beliefs, there were other ways for Kai's coven to get him out, they didn’t. They knew he was trapped and they didn't lift a finger to save him, they didn't. So to say it was all on Bonnie when there were other roads they could've taken is ridiculous.

I used Enzo because Bonnie is in a relationship with him despite the fact that he was once responsible for kidnapping her and Jeremy, hurting Jeremy, stalking Stefan, turning Stefan's girlfriend, and kidnapping Caroline. No one really questions what he's done to her or her friends.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Damon gets blamed for what Kai did after 1903, because some believed that Damon tricked Bonnie into locking Kai in 1903, by saying that he didn't mention to Bonnie that Kai helped saved her and I guess they think that it would have made Bonnie more willing to forgive Kai or show mercy on him and not trap him in 1903. But, Damon actually tried twice to get Bonnie to see that Kai had "changed".

One was over the phone and he tried to explain to her about the merge and how it impacted Kai and Bonnie shut him down and didn't want to hear any of it or the claims of Kai's change.

Second time was when he went against her wishes at the rave and gave Kai a chance to apologize which just triggered Bonnie's fear and ptsd of him.

I know that the Bonnie haters in the fandom will use anything to hate on her, even to the point of making things up and saying that she is a awful friend to Elena.

I do agree with Enzo, Bonnie has been allowed to confront Damon at times and call him out when he does wrong, even if some don't think that she is angry with him long enough or forgives him too fast. She has let Damon known when she thinks he is wrong.

Since they have built up BE, Bonnie has not really been allowed to call Enzo out. Not even before they got together and Enzo kidnapped Caroline and she was all about what he deserved and helping him make Lily jealous.

And even though he played a part in the problems of Season 7 by raising up Rayna and even though he pistol whipped and drugged Bonnie at the Armory, being he prevented her from leaving and put her in danger, which lead to her being hurt by Tyler and Damon desiccating himself.

Three years later he gets to be written as Bonnie's hero. With no real consequences for all of the selfish decisions that he made in Season 7. He even gets to act self righteous with Damon and calling out Damon for the desiccation. Like he didn't play a role at all in how everyone was in danger because of Rayna/The Armory,

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

I've seen Damon be blamed for not truly respecting Bonnie's wishes in keeping Kai out of her face, but that was it. I've never seen Damon be blamed for what Kai did when he escaped the prison world. Even the writers steered clear of directly mentioning Damon. All of Kai's words to Bonnie were those of revenge, but his actions in linking Elena/Bonnie made Elena and Damon the victims and Bonnie took the blame. It's written into the narrative and it's been mentioned more than once, his harsh words to Bonnie to get her to wake up were somewhat the truth, Bonnie said this. It's all Bonnie's fault that Damon and Elena can't be together.

It was never acknowledged that Jeremy and Kai saved Bonnie, it doesn't matter that Damon never mentioned because no one did. I don't think Bonnie even knows, one would think Jeremy would've said something but, nope. But it was obvious that changes were made towards the end of season 6, because a lot of events post 6x16 make no sense, at all.

Bonnie has never called Enzo out, has she? Unless calling him a "ruiner" is considered harsh.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Have me on ignore and still worried about me. A Kai fangirl being bitter over me bringing up Kai's abusive/problematic/sociopath behavior. I'll keep mentioning it for as long as you ignore Kai Stans victim blaming Bonnie and whitewashing of his actions, while acting self righteous about Damon fans. Hypocritical and your problems with Damon fans can't be taken seriously. For all of the spewing about Damon fans, you hold a grudge and are bothered and bitter because of those who point out Kai being an sociopath/psychopath, who can't accept him being discussed as a villain dead or alive.

Address me if you still have a problem with me. But, if it's a problem with me because I don't like/worship Kai Parker then so be it lol. Pretty funny that the same Kai/BK fans who still talk about Damon/Bamon then turn around and have a problem with Kai's wrongdoings being mentioned.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Agreed, I'm also sick of the Damon argument deflection, how many times have Stefan, Klaus, or another been brought up in this thread as a comparison to Damon. Ridiculous.

Because Damons actions do not exist within a vaccuum.

I get it now, people can't handle a challenge or an alternative POV on a discussion board.
You want threads where everyone agrees with a certain POV.
I think people get fed up when their arguments are challenged and supported with canon from the show that goes directly against personal head canon.
I for one do not agree with how Damon is written at times, some of his actions have seemed OOC to me but I still accept them as part of story and discuss accordingly.
You don't want to read the comments? then don't, it's that simple.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

No, Damon deflections go like this:

Poster mentions Damon raped Caroline

Instead of talking about what Damon did

"Ripper Stefan's done way worse he has a higher body count, Kai abused Bonnie over and over again and freed the heretics, Klaus is a monster but his family still loves him"

Instead of just addressing "hey, Damon did rape Caroline, it was wrong, it's pretty bad writing that Caroline has tolerated him this long without a apology of some sort."

Instead it apparently isn't canon because the show hasn't wrote it on a chalkboard and pointed to it and said "Damon did this".

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Same goes for fans of all of the other characters that U mentioned. Do they defend their fave without bringing up what other characters did wrong?

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Yes, I can. Unless my favorite is wrong, then they're wrong.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Well, the whole point is some not liking Damon fans deflecting to the wrong doings of other characters when Damon's rape of Caroline is brought up. And I'm saying that fans of Stefan/Klaus/Kai etc....will also do it.

In the case with the Salvatore brothers, if someone mentions the murders that Stefan committed or what he did as a ripper or how they think that he did Elena wrong, then his fans will bring up Damon and how what Damon did is worse. They don't solely focus on Stefan and defend Stefan all of the time by solely focusing on him. Stefan being a ripper and being seen as not being able to control his addiction, is used to explain why they think that Damon's killings are worse.

Kai fans too will use "The others have killed and been redeemed, so why can't Kai be redeemed and forgiven as well. Bonnie forgave Damon, why can't she forgive Kai. Damon has killed more people. Bonnie is friends with other people who murdered, but she can't forgive Kai? Using what the others have done and Bonnie being friends with him to act like she owes him forgiveness and a second chance, instead of just focusing on how Kai as an individual has done to earn her forgiveness and acceptance."

Klaus fans will bring up Tyler and bash Tyler or more recently some will focus on what Stefan's wrong doings since KC/SC fans ship their faves with Caroline.

So, if it's wrong for Damon fans to do then why not be wrong for fans of other characters to do? Fans of other characters don't choose to defend their fave by solely focusing on what their fave did all of the time.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

They should be able to try and defend their character solely on them, unless circumstances of said character directly involve another. If someone points out a mistake that Klaus makes and they counter with "Elijah has the red door so what's your point?" Then they have no ground in defense lol. If I point out Damon muredered Sarah's parents he doesn't deserve to know her, and Someone goes "Stefan's muredered people too what should he?" They have no leg to stand on. So yeah it's wrong, doesn't mean anyone here has to do it.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

The point that is being made repeatedly is that you and others do exactly that.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

While Damon used to be a favourite character of mine because of how entertaining Ian played him, I have to agree. His defence always rests on him being compared to other characters who did 'worse'.

For example, the Stefan defence is based on alcoholism being used as a metaphor for ripperdom; and also that every time he turned off his humanity switch, he did it under some form of external duress (being compelled by Klaus, to save Sarah Salvatore's life, etc). Klaus's defence is based on his childhood abuse / Mikael-induced-paranoia. Kai's defence is likewise based on childhood abuse, the good he did while he was 'redeemed', and a natural reaction to betrayal. Katherine's defence - I have not seen much of it but when I do see it - is based on her teenage pregnancy and traumatic birth, Klaus hunting her and massacring her family and her having no one but herself to help her survive.

Besides, the 'woobie' reasons for their actions, there are also reasons less noble reasons like survival (Katherine), power (Klaus), ambition (Kai) etc.

But Damon's defence of raping Caroline always boils down to : "well, none of these guys are angels, either."

I guess what I'm trying to say in my own roundabout way, is that even the evil deeds of the villains are motivated in-story. Be the motivations be sympathetic (childhood trauma) or nefarious (greed, quest for more power and control), there is a reason, for example, why Klaus murdered Carol Lockwood. He did it to teach Tyler a lesson. Katherine traded Elena's life to Klaus for her own freedom. They are all despicable reasons but at least they are reasons.

What reason are we given for Damon raping Caroline?

It wasn't necessary to his plans to free Katherine. She wasn't Stefan's friend so his ill treatment of her didn't hurt his brother. He didn't hate her, Caroline. She irritated him, yes, but he didn't have any feelings for her as strong as hate. So it wasn't about revenge or anything of the sort.

It really just seems to boil down to he raped her because he was manipulating every aspect of her life anyway, he might as well help himself to her hot body. For a show that's been targeted to a female audience, it really blows my mind why they chose to go in this direction. I can imagine a show with a male-dominated audience being able to - VOMIT - 'sympathize' with Damon's rape of Caroline. After all, she is that HOT, so how couldn't he have raped her? But for a largely female audience, how are we not supposed to sympathize with Caroline in that situation?

Although, maybe I underestimate the effects of internalised misogyny?

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

I'm a male, don't understand it. He was already sleeping with her, but he instead wanted to terrorize & continously feed on her in the most frightening way possible. He then took away her consent, I just don't get how it's been buried so hard after S2.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

What reason are we given for Damon raping Caroline?

It wasn't necessary to his plans to free Katherine. She wasn't Stefan's friend so his ill treatment of her didn't hurt his brother. He didn't hate her, Caroline. She irritated him, yes, but he didn't have any feelings for her as strong as hate. So it wasn't about revenge or anything of the sort.

There will be no reasons given for Damon sleeping with Caroline other than it was part of a plan to seduce her into a faux relationship to infiltrate the founders party so he could get the crystal that he needed to open the tomb that Katherine was in (or so he thought). He pretended to be her boyfriend to get invited in, so yes it was necessary to the plan. In a town where there was an active vampire council he needed to blend in and be seen around town with people and he used Caroline (who was a popular cheerleader) to gain an IN to that group of people. He also needed to feed and because Damon was a remorseless vampire at this point he was feeding from the vein. Caroline fulfilled both roles for him and his actions were portrayed as villainous. So, you see, there were reasons for Damon doing what he was doing, it wasn't random villainy...he had an agenda, just like Klaus.

What I find funny is that you are quite clearly able to justify and explain away the motives for arguably equally or worse villains than Damon, but you point blank refuse to entertain the notion that Damon's actions are equally understandable?

Damon came from an abusive household....just like Klaus. This was inferred in S1 and more explicitly stated in S7. Guiseppe Salvatore was an abusive father and husband and killed both of his Son's in cold blood. Are we going to pretend that it didn't have an effect on Damon's psyche? while at the same time understanding Klaus had an abusive relationship with his father that fostered his current personality?
Why do you see Klaus motivations for killing Carol Lockwood as a reason for killing her yet not see that Damon has reasons for doing the things he does?

Why did Klaus kill Jenna? why not Katherine?
Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

What I find funny is that you are quite clearly able to justify and explain away the motives for arguably equally or worse villains than Damon, but you point blank refuse to entertain the notion that Damon's actions are equally understandable?

You are mistaking my ability to follow a story/understand character motivations as an ability to "justify and explain away the motives" of villains. Because I can see that the motives exist does not equate that I am 'excusing' the motives. To point out the most obvious example: I can see that Damon raped Caroline because she was hot and he could, for example. I'm sure we can both agree that at no point in time have I excused him for that.

They are not the same thing and I think that is perhaps where your disconnect lies between enjoying a character like Damon and doing what - I think the word that is used is - 'woobifying' Damon because you feel that you cannot enjoy a character who does evil things. It is a problem I also think lies with the writers of these show so it is not entirely your fault.

And - this is amusing to me - for you to apply any of these "reasons" for Damon raping Caroline - you would first have to admit that he actually did rape Caroline in the first place which is something that, to the best of my knowledge, you have vehemently denied. So, by your own reasoning, you are defending Damon for committing a non-existent crime! Which is kind of you admitting that the crime did happen in the first place so.... ?😀 (Sorry, I just find this entirety so amusing.)

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

You are mistaking my ability to follow a story/understand character motivations as an ability to "justify and explain away the motives" of villains. Because I can see that the motives exist does not equate that I am 'excusing' the motives. To point out the most obvious example: I can see that Damon raped Caroline because she was hot and he could, for example. I'm sure we can both agree that at no point in time have I excused him for that.

That is my point. I do not have to like a characters actions to enjoy a character as long as I understand what is motivating them. You are making the mistake by assuming because I like Damon, I excuse what he does, I don't, I just understand the motivations from the character POV and within the context of the storytelling. I like Damon because his journey is the most interesting to ME....
I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me on that point, I understand that people enjoy other characters more that is why it is fun to discuss. I have a problem when people try to tell me that during discussions or debate that supporting or understanding Damon is somehow different to those that support another character.
Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

They are not the same thing and I think that is perhaps where your disconnect lies between enjoying a character like Damon and doing what - I think the word that is used is - 'woobifying' Damon because you feel that you cannot enjoy a character who does evil things

Wrong! I enjoy Damon because I can acknowledge his terrible deeds but nevertheless still enjoy his journey within the show. I understand the trajectory of his story in the main and root for him to find his happy ending or whatever. I also root for Klaus, Rebekah, Elena, Bonnie etc in the same way.

And - this is amusing to me - for you to apply any of these "reasons" for Damon raping Caroline - you would first have to admit that he actually did rape Caroline in the first place which is something that, to the best of my knowledge, you have vehemently denied. So, by your own reasoning, you are defending Damon for committing a non-existent crime! Which is kind of you admitting that the crime did happen in the first place so.... ?😀 (Sorry, I just find this entirety so amusing.)

You're right, I can't reason why Damon raped Caroline, and the show isn't going to either because it didn't happen. By that definition I can't defend Damon for something that does not exist.

Answer me one question, If you believe what Damon did constitutes rape, then you must accept that it's likely that Stefan also raped countless women throughout time.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

I enjoy Damon because I can acknowledge his terrible deeds but...

I can't reason why Damon raped Caroline, and the show isn't going to either because it didn't happen.

Putting them side by side so that the disconnect won't be obvious to only me.

Answer me one question, If you believe what Damon did constitutes rape, then you must accept that it's likely that Stefan also raped countless women throughout time.

After 7 seasons, we've seen several iterations of ripper!Stefan, humanity-off!Stefan, both in present day and flashbacks. The nearest we've seen to a sexual scene between Stefan and his victims is Stefan and a female vampire (Rebekah, Caroline) co-feeding on a victim, getting turned on, and then having vampire sex with each other. Unlike Damon whom has long-term predator/prey arcs with Caroline and Andie, we're never shown Stefan having a similar relationship with any of his victims.

Now this to - not Damon, for a change, but humanity-off Caroline compelling human!Liam to make out with her. Or the story making a structural decision to have Katherine rape Stefan and not Damon.

The show 'chose' to make Damon's vampirism about sex; and chose to make Stefan's vampirism about blood-lust and murder: doing sick things like torturing a married couple to 'court' Rebekah. These are the most depraved moments of Stefan's life - him sinking to the lowest of the low, so to speak and the show made the decision not to include depictions of rape in this.

So yes, I accept that it is likely as much as anything that happens off-screen is likely as a negative cannot be proved. However does it make sense based on the 7x22 episodes of story that has been devoted to Stefan's character both in present-day and in flashback?

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

o yes, I accept that it is likely as much as anything that happens off-screen is likely as a negative cannot be proved.

It's canon that Stefan was compelling and feeding off humans, it is also canon that he was waking up covered in blood with women he doesn't remember. It is implied directly that Stefan was having sex with these women when Damon was reading Stefan's journal. It might not be in character to define Stefan as a rapist when the series is viewed as a whole but the fact remains that these things did happen and were talked about onscreen even if they were not alluded to as rape.

The show 'chose' to make Damon's vampirism about sex;

The show has not made Damon's vampirism about sex, they made it about love. The love for Katherine and without her he did not choose vampirism at all. For a long time he was vampire that was using women/humans for blood and literally nothing else until he met Sage. That to me does not jive with a character that is a rapist.
The fact that Damon enjoyed having sex in the first few seasons does not make him all about sex. Once he was with Elena he had sex with her and only her, then Stefan was the one out and about having lots of casual sex. Being sexual does not = rapist.

him sinking to the lowest of the low, so to speak and the show made the decision not to include depictions of rape in this

The show is not making depictions of rape about Damon or anyone for that matter, that is my point. The show has made it quite clear that all the women in this show had sex willingly for a reason. Could it have been written better? of course it could but it's the intent of the storytelling that is important when discussing the show.

Do you honestly believe it was the intent of the writers to portray their leading men as rapists?

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Was it implied that Stefan had sex with his victims? Then in that case, I stand corrected.

The show is not making depictions of rape about Damon or anyone for that matter, that is my point.

::sighs::

Do you honestly believe it was the intent of the writers to portray their leading men as rapists?

It is irrelevant what they intended to portray. What matters is what they did.

At my most charitable, I will say that they are part of the same rape culture that prevents you from seeing what Damon did as rape, or made Whoopi Goldberg say that Roman Polanski did not commit rape-rape or made the Judge that commuted Brock Turner's sentence to three months believe that his actions were essentially harmless.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Was it implied that Stefan had sex with his victims? Then in that case, I stand corrected.

Yes.

It is irrelevant what they intended to portray. What matters is what they did.

Sighs.. in your opinion. No matter, I got what I wanted from you which was an admission that in your opinion Damon is not the only rapist on the show, that by your own reasonings Stefan should carry that label too. I'm fine with you believing what you want as long as that logic is dished out equally and that all characters are measured by the same yardstick. I don't share that opinion because I don't think compulsion works the way you are assuming it does and the evidence is right there in the show but I won't go into that because I've said it all before.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Well, obviously anyone who is a rapist should carry the label of rapist. I have already "admitted" in this thread & several times in this site that Katherine raped Stefan. Additionally, that Caroline at least sexually abused Liam when she compelled him to make out with her - and that it could have progressed to rape given enough time (or it did, off-screen, whichever way). Why does Stefan need specific definition? You and awesomebamon seem obsessed with comparing Damon to specific "rivals". In your case, Stefan and in her case, Kai. You've proved is that you're satisfied with Damon being a rapist as long as Stefan can be labelled as one too. Similarly, awesomebamon is satisfied with Damon being a problematic character as long as Kai can be regarded as one to.

At first, I wonderered what did these two men have in common? Stefan is Damon's brother and a main cast member. Kai was a one-off villain. One a vampire; one a sort-of witch. As apples and oranges as can be.

Then it hit me!

They are both Damon's "romantic" rivals for your respective ships! For you as a Delena fan, Stefan is the enemy. For awesomebamon as a Bamon fan, it is Kai. So your primary concern is that your respective target can be shown to be no better than Damon. Your objections to Damon being a rapist stop the moment it can be shown that Stefan is one. Similar to awesomebamon's arguments.

Apparently, I waded into two simultaneous shipping wars that I didn't even know were occurring. Here I was thinking I was having a discussion about the responsibility of story-tellers to their audience, etc. And all this while both of you have been having a "Who Deserves Elena/Bonnie More?" discussion of epic proportions.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Well obviously your reading comprehension skills need work because I actually said this.

I'm fine with you believing what you want as long as that logic is dished out equally and that all characters are measured by the same yardstick. I don't share that opinion because I don't think compulsion works the way you are assuming it does and the evidence is right there in the show but I won't go into that because I've said it all before.

For the record, and I will say it one more time.. the show is not depicting ANY of the characters as rapists IMO. I brought Stefan into the conversation specifically because he is the other main character that has been shown to do similar things as Damon and he most definitely is depicted as being the hero of the show and the good brother and because others, not necessarily you, like to call out Damon fans specifically when they are guilty of exactly the same thing.
I personally could not give a toss about Stefan anymore, he is mostly a cardboard cutout character now, and i'm certainly not worried about him from a shipping POV. He is irrelevant to the DE love story now, that particular love triangle died seasons ago. I'm not particularly interested in a DE endgame as long as Damon gets some kind of decent closure to his series arc but if I had choose a "ship" I would choose DE, of course I would because Elena is who Damon would choose.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Really is annoying how the show won't let the Salvatore relationship grow and let them move past their issues and have a better relationship. The triangle is over and yet they will have Elena an issue where she doesn't need to be. Like in Season 7 using Elena to make Damon look like the bad brother and Stefan the brother that is burdened by Damon and always suffers at Damon's hands.

One of the things that I don't agree with in their writing for the Damon character. Beating a dead horse with the good brother/bad brother angle.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

blues - I really agree with you on this one.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

I don't think compulsion works the way you are assuming it does

Nor, apparently, do you think it works the way the show writers spelt out that it does. But then again, your thoughts of how rape "Works" are also rather unique, aren't they?

Well obviously your reading comprehension skills need work because I actually said this.
For the record, and I will say it one more time.. the show is not depicting ANY of the characters as rapists IMO.

Well, a few posts back, you went to considerable pains and several paragraphs to give a detailed defence of a rape that I needed to point out that according to your own stipulations never happened in the first place. At which point, you promptly backed down and recanted. And you not being "particularly interested in a DE endgame" is preceded by you first reassuring yourself that Stefan is irrelevant to said DE love story. For someone who doesn't "give a toss" about Stefan, the rest of your words are surprisingly contradictory.

It appears that there is only so far that reading comprehension can compensate for the lack of logic or consistency of the text in question.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Orgine claiming to have me on ignore and still worried about what I post. Talking about Bamon fans when as a Bonkai/Kai fan she/he is just as obsessed with bringing up Damon/Bamon fans and Damon as she claims that Bamon fans are of Kai/BonKai. Always worried about Bamon shippers for someone who claims that Bamon saw BK as a threat when Kai is dead. lol Must mean that Damon/Bamon is seen as a threat if Kai/BK fans discuss him by that logic. I saw the mention that she was for Bonenzo as a way to stick it to Bamon fans and then claims that someone else's views comes down to shipping.

All comes down to not liking Bamon fans, because of how some Bamon fans think that Bonkai is problematic and abusive, but has no problems with the BK fans who will still talk about Damon/Bamon and make out Damon to be worse than Kai.

Must mean by that logic that her problems with Damon comes down to shipping since she keeps mentioning Bamon fans. Alright for Damon to be brought up in defense of Kai, but don't like Kai being mentioned at all, for the worship. smh lol

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Orgine claiming to have me on ignore and still worried about what I post. Talking about Bamon fans when as a Bonkai/Kai fan she/he is just as obsessed with bringing up Damon/Bamon fans and Damon as she claims that Bamon fans are of Kai/BonKai. Always worried about Bamon shippers for someone who claims that Bamon saw BK as a threat when Kai is dead. lol Must mean that Damon/Bamon is seen as a threat if Kai/BK fans discuss him by that logic. I saw the mention that she was for Bonenzo as a way to stick it to Bamon fans and then claims that someone else's views comes down to shipping.

All comes down to not liking Bamon fans, because of how some Bamon fans think that Bonkai is problematic and abusive, but has no problems with the BK fans who will still talk about Damon/Bamon and make out Damon to be worse than Kai.

Must mean by that logic that her problems with Damon comes down to shipping since she keeps mentioning Bamon fans. Alright for Damon to be brought up in defense of Kai, but don't like Kai being mentioned at all, for the worship. smh lol

The comment was addressed to bluesexy and Delena shippers.... 😕

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

When logged out I saw several comments from Orgine directed at me and talking about Bamon fans and actually bringing up my name. She has always have a problem and personally attacking me because of me being a Damon fan and glosses over Kai being problematic to make personal attacks against Damon fans about rape, even while some Damon fans don't excuse the rape.

Now she is back at it again with worrying about Bamon/Damon and Bamon fans as much as she accuses Damon/Bamon fans being worried about Kai/BK.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Then this does not concern me.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

It doesn't which is why it's more directed at her since she has me on ignore or claims that she put me on ignore. Just thought that it was hypocritical to accuse someone mentioning Kai's wrong doings because they see BonKai as a "threat" and yet mentioning Bamon/Damon fans all of the time.

Still made a whole thread about Bamon fans/JP and keeping track of what I do and post. Keeping track of what Bamon fans post on twitter, but then complains about how Bamon fans were towards BK fans, like the shipping war was one sided and that BK fans were innocent in it and that it's all Bamon fans fault. Not trying to drag you into it, but was just commenting.

Also keeping an eye on how Bamon fans react to Bonenzo. Just find it funny to accuse others of focusing in shipping when discussing characters wrong doings and problematic behavior.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

If it's directed to her, then address it to her. Otherwise then you are deliberately trying to drag me into it which I don't appreciate.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Then I apologize.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Well, a few posts back, you went to considerable pains and several paragraphs to give a detailed defence of a rape that I needed to point out that according to your own stipulations never happened in the first place. At which point, you promptly backed down and recanted.

Nope, you are going to have to refresh my memory on that one.

And you not being "particularly interested in a DE endgame" is preceded by you first reassuring yourself that Stefan is irrelevant to said DE love story. For someone who doesn't "give a toss" about Stefan, the rest of your words are surprisingly contradictory.
Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Says the queen of contradiction. The fact that I do not see Stefan as a threat to DE was in response to the accusation that you levelled that my posts were shipper based. I was refuting that particular point. I have never denied that my fave ship is DE but it isn't the be all and end all for me was my point.
Lady, you need to stop condescendingly remarking on others ability to understand basic reading comprehension and propensity to derail discussions if you can't do the same yourself.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Me: And - this is amusing to me - for you to apply any of these "reasons" for Damon raping Caroline - you would first have to admit that he actually did rape Caroline in the first place which is something that, to the best of my knowledge, you have vehemently denied. So, by your own reasoning, you are defending Damon for committing a non-existent crime! Which is kind of you admitting that the crime did happen in the first place so.... ?

You: You're right, I can't reason why Damon raped Caroline, and the show isn't going to either because it didn't happen. By that definition I can't defend Damon for something that does not exist.

Found it amusing then, find it amusing now. As I've said already, far be it for me to call anyone a liar on the internet, so I shall assume you've already forgotten a conversation that occurred barely twenty-four hours ago and leave it at that.

Lady, you need to stop condescendingly remarking on others ability to understand basic reading comprehension and propensity to derail discussions if you can't do the same yourself.

If you feel you are being condescended to, you need to look inwards, into your own complexes, and not outwardly at anything I've said. As for the rest, you've shown that this discussion about a fictional rapist is so important to you that you are ready to drag in your alleged personal demons to score a point so you will forgive me if I take your assessment of my logical skills with a grain of salt.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

Was it implied that Stefan had sex with his victims?

No, it wasn't. And you're absolutely right that Damon's vampirism is about sex while Stefan's is about blood-lust. In fact, I'm going to quote someone on tumblr who said it best:

[Rape] is a Damon thing. He is the one who's about sex and compulsion and seduction, which is why in 1x15 when he’s spiraling with the sorority girls, he’s drunk, they’re dancing, they’re in their underwear etc. etc. with Vicki, he didn’t compel/sleep/rape her but she’s in her underwear and his shirt is unbuttoned, like the sex factor is a very Damon thing.

Stefan is a ripper, he’s about the kill, he’s about the feed, he’s about the blood, which is why in 3x06 Damon actually walks down the stairs and they’re covered with dead bodies, the girls playing twister are in shorts, yes, but they’re fully-clothed. Even in 2x15 when there’s a flashback to his early ripper days, there’s a woman playing the piano and Stefan tells her to keep up the tempo or he’ll snap her neck, he compels the women to want to die, in 3x03 that flashback he and Rebekah feed on a woman and the sexual undertone is between them not with Stefan and the human because she’s food, that’s it.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

I think I might even have read this same tumblr. zalb right?

It made sense to me, but bluesex's argument is that Stefan wrote in his diary that he had sex with his victims. While I don't remember this, if that's the case, then he almost certainly raped them.

However, it makes no difference to me because Stefan being a rapist does not excuse Damon from being one or the show from representing Damon as a hero. Not to mention that a throwaway line from a diary that very few even remember about Stefan's past does not compare to an entire arc of the first half of season where we're constantly shown Damon raping Caroline in present day.

I already have a problem with the show turning a rapist into a hero. Am I supposed to be mollified that the show did it twice?

[–] orgine 8 years ago

Yes, this is the link:

http://zalrb.tumblr.com/post/145286038025/ders-says-that-stefan-rape-these-girls-on-twister#notes

And you're right, of course, that it shouldn't matter to anyone who's actually arguing if Damon is a rapist whether anyone else is. But you hit the nail on the head in your other post that this really boils down to ships. DE shippers hate Stefan so they need him to be a rapist. BD shippers hate Kai so they need him to be... well, I'm not sure what they need Kai to be since Julie Plec etc already wrote him as villain and killed him.. but whatever it is that Damon is, BD fans just need it to be on record that Kai is worse. ::rolls eyes::

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

That's one I missed, shockingly. Lol. I usually read and reblog most of her posts.

[ b]My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...[/b]

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

However, it makes no difference to me because Stefan being a rapist does not excuse Damon from being one or the show from representing Damon as a hero. Not to mention that a throwaway line from a diary that very few even remember about Stefan's past does not compare to an entire arc of the first half of season where we're constantly shown Damon raping Caroline in present day.

It doesn't stop you defending him though does it?
Selective morality much?

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Obviously, I was referring to the narrative structure of the two "rapes". This is TV - a visual story-telling medium. One was a significant part of the first half of season 1 which included violent visual images like Damon throwing a terrified, half-naked girl on her bed and jumping on her. The other was a "blink and you'll miss it" mention from a diary that few people on these boards remember. Caroline's dreads and her compulsion of Liam to make out with her is far easier to remember that this diary entry mention.

But, of course, the kind of person who reads every discussion through shipper lenses won't have even registered the following:

While I don't remember this, if that's the case, then he almost certainly raped them.

and

I already have a problem with the show turning a rapist into a hero. Am I supposed to be mollified that the show did it twice?

When it comes to selective morality or indeed reading comprehension, it might do you well to evaluate yourself before accusing others.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Fact is that Stefan also has his advantages to whitewashing when it comes to the fandom and the writers. I'll admit to the problems with the writing for Damon. But the fact is that Stefan gets a built in excuse when his being a ripper and his addiction being used to give him a free pass when it comes to murder/abusing and using women for his personal needs and wants. The addiction is used as a way to say that "He can't help it or control himself" when it comes to the murders and abuse/harmful actions that he commits in his ripper stage. The ripper stage used by the writers and Stefan fans to prevent him from being labeled as a cold blooded killer and abuser/user right out. Where was Damon not being a ripper makes his murders out to be as worse.

Since some don't want Kai to be brought up because Kai is a villain. There is still the case of Stefan's ripper stages being used to excuse him in a way. And despite all of the immoral things that he did and all of his wrong doings. Or his murder of people and abuse/using of women during his ripper stages still gets painted as the good brother by the writers and some in the fandom.

Some of the same people who have a fandom with how the writers handle Damon's rape of Caroline, when also use the same writers as their advantage to act like Stefan is way more moral/saintly/ and a better person over Damon.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

I see Damon's villainous motivation, your right there.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Damon suffered from an abusive childhood too, with neglectful parents. If that explanation works for Klaus/Kai them by the same logic it could work for Damon. But, I guess Damon fans would defend the rape of Caroline don't focus on his childhood as much, as Klaus/Kai fans do on their fave. Either way though abusive childhoods may help understand why Klaus/Kai are the way that they are, but they don't mean that KLaus/Kai get an excuse or a free pass over it.

Because not everyone who has suffered an neglectful/abusive childhood chooses to go into adulthood hurting,abusing and murdering other people. They are still grown men who know right from wrong and still choose to do the wrong. And they grow up abusing/murdering people who had nothing do to with their abuse. Like Kai killing and attempting to kill the children in his family there is no excuse, they had no control over how Kai's parents choose to treat him and they were defenseless and innocent.

Unless that defense could also be used for Damon and unless people are going to start to diminish the abuse/neglect that Damon suffered as a child to make it seem like Klaus/Kai's childhood was a more justified reason to act out.

And unless people think that they can rate the childhood troubles that people have grown through as if they are competing. Telling one person who had to grow up in an abusive household that emotional and mental pain that they had to suffer through in childhood wasn't as bad as someone else's abusive childhood.

But, at the end of the day they are grown men who can control what they decide to do and the path that they decide to take. And has grown men all three have used revenge/hurt feelings/feeling betrayed as a reason to lash out in violence. And used their manpain as a reason to justify it. "Someone did something to hurt/betray me, now I'm going to go out and murder/hurt people"

Damon was physically tormented and tortured by the Augustine society for years and locked up and tortured by them and used that as a reason to murder anyone related to the members of the Augustine Society down the line.

Kai in both cases of escaping the prison world used betrayal or trying to gain power for wanting to kill after his escape. Even though both his family and Bonnie actually had justified reasons for locking him in 1994/1903 in the first place.

Kai and his fans focus on how wrong that Kai was for being locked in 1994 and him being there for 18 years and wanting to get out is used as a defense for why he choose to do what he did to Bonnie. But, his family actually had good reason to lock him up, because they did so because Kai killed children and was trying to kill toddlers in Luke/Liv for power and control.

Like how some focus on Kai striking out because of the abuse of his childhood. His family was mourning for the loss of the kids that he killed and it's understandable why any family or person would want someone who murdered children close to them locked up and to face some kind of justice.

Bonnie locked Kai up because of the abuse/torture that Kai put her through. But, Kai just ignores the fact that his decisions played a part in why he got locked in the prison worlds and focuses on his feelings and only cares about his feelings while he is focused on revenge. The hurt and abuse that he choose to do doesn't matter and he just acts like they betrayed him. BUt, then that is a sociopath who make themselves the victims even if they have hurt others themselves.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Damon suffered from an abusive childhood too, with neglectful parents. If that explanation works for Klaus/Kai them by the same logic it could work for Damon. But, I guess Damon fans would defend the rape of Caroline don't focus on his childhood as much, as Klaus/Kai fans do on their fave.

😀😀😀

Don't take this the wrong way - but I burst out laughing at your first paragraph. I had just written a post where I explained about how all Damon defence hinges on "but the other guys are just as bad", detailing character motivations and basically inviting you to give motivations for Damon's character that do not rest on the "but what about these other guys" argument.... And the first thing you do, indeed, the whole body of your post, is basically another variation of "the other guys are just as bad!" argument. Indeed, you spent a great deal more time detailing/examining Kai's motives in your post than you spent examining Damon's. Your 'counter' argument basically proved my point.

But for the record...

Klaus was abused for his illegitimacy, and then hunted by Mikael. So he needed to make himself invincible (become a hybrid, surround himself with an army) and control his siblings since he could never completely trust them. That directly ties with his motivations. His quest for more power ties to this.

Kai was abused because he didn't have magical powers. So he needed to merge with his sister to gain some. His ambition ties to this. His sociopathy gave his evil another dimension - being literally without a conscience.

Katherine was hunted by Klaus, and he massacred her family for her defiance. So she turned into a selfish survivalist, willing to sacrifice any and all for her desire to survive.

Damon was abused by his father so...... he raped Caroline and Andi...? If he was sexually abused by his father, I can see how that would direct his future sexual predatorial behaviour and I recant everything I've said already if this was the case and I somehow missed it. Was he sexually abused by a woman? In fact, you can make a better case of Stefan turning into the vampire rapist because he was actually raped by Katherine - but Damon went into the relationship with her fully cognisant of who and what she was. She never compelled him into sex like she did Stefan.

It's not just a question of 'woobifying' a villain. There has to be a logical connection between their past, their motives and their evil actions... and there isn't any of this for Damon. It's actual a technical failure of the story - which is why I have a big problem with the writers's of this show. As a Damon fan, you won't have to work so hard to rationalize him if the writers did a better job but it really does seem that Julie Plec etc were right in believing that as long as Damon is played by Ian Somerhalder, constructing his character properly is superfluous.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

lol and just like the point that I have been making this whole time. If you are going to call out "bringing up other guys" to Damon fans then you would have to do that to fans of others as well. Kai fans all of the time bring up what Damon has done wrong to defend their fave so..... Especially in the case of Kai/Stefan fans. Trying to create a rule where Damon fans can't mention what others do wrong. But, both Stefan and Kai fans will often use what Damon has done wrong to defend their fave character, so double standard here?

Also the talk about Damon fans excusing Caroline's rape and the fact is that fans of Kai woobify him. They don't admit to him doing what he did as him being a sociopath/psycho path. They paint him as some misunderstood guy who is really good with a heart of gold deep down.

Bonnie is blamed for his abuse of her in 1994. Kai's a sociopath but everyone is suppose to have empathy and sympathy for him and coddle to his feelings or they are the bad guys. Bonnie was treated as the bad guy because she didn't forgive Kai. Kai wasn't seen as a sociopath, his merge with Luke was used to paint him a a redeemed man who was good and wanted to be good and how he was going to be an angel/saint until Bonnie "betrayed" him. Bonnie was expected to get past the torture that he put her through and treat him like he was totally good and a saint/angel because he said sorry one time and because the guilt of the merge made him do one decent act to help get Bonnie out of 1994.

Since we are focused on Damon's rape. Then what if the writers actually acknowledged Damon's rape of Caroline and showed Caroline suffering through all of the pain and hardtimes that a rape victim has to go through after rape. Then Damon comes along while Caroline is in the middle of suffering emotionally and mentally through being raped and Damon gives one apology and does one decent thing. But, Caroline tells him to stay away. but Damon refuses to and invades her space and makes Caroline uncomfortable and she defends herself in some way because she doesn't want her rapist disrespecting her feelings and invading her space based off what he needs, feels and wants.

Because Kai saying sorry one time and doing one decent act is seen as a reason for why he should have been completely forgiven and accepted by Bonnie. Doesn't matter if he invaded Bonnie's space and triggered her ptsd, just as long as he said sorry.

Now, imagine the outrage if Damon fans had even demanded for Caroline to forgive Damon for the rape, because he said sorry one time and did one decent thing. Imagine the outrage since Damon fans are getting the focus here. But, some Kai fans and Bonnie haters in the fandom demand forgiveness of her when it comes to Kai.

Would Caroline be blamed for lashing out at her rapists, in the same way that Bonnie is blamed for lashing out at her abuser?

Tyler is bashed for his response to KLaus, when Klaus killed his mother.

I don't agree with those who whitewash Damon's rape, but the point is that fans of other characters do it too and you can't just act like only fans of Damon are part of the problem in the TVD fandom. You can focus on the writers and some Damon fans excusing the rape. But don't think that the victim blaming of Bonnie is also a part of the problem and isn't just as damaging?

What is the real difference between whitewashing over the rape of Caroline and victim blaming Bonnie for Kai's abuse or the actions that Kai decide to take in 1994 and post 1903? Especially because some of the same DE fans that have said that Damon didn't rape Caroline are the same who blame Bonnie for not forgiving Kai and expect her to forgive and accept her abuser.

This whole rape/abuse culture way of thinking is not just limited to Damon with the TVD fandom and acting like it's just on Damon won't solve others who excuse abuse.

Not Kai fans acknowledges him as a villain/sociopath/psychopath and have tried to paint him with someone that has feelings or is good deep down and as the victim at the hands of Bonnie/Damon/his family and use that to excuse his behavior like he can't control himself and what he decides to do.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

This whole rape/abuse culture way of thinking is not just limited to Damon with the TVD fandom and acting like it's just on Damon won't solve others who excuse abuse.

So basically, you've applied your usual logic to other villains in TVD now to 'other shows'? Since other shows also have problematic rapists, then there's nothing wrong with TVD having a problematic rapist?

I find that reprehensible.

lol and just like the point that I have been making this whole time. If you are going to call out "bringing up other guys" to Damon fans then you would have to do that to fans of others as well. Kai fans all of the time bring up what Damon has done wrong to defend their fave so..... Especially in the case of Kai/Stefan fans. Trying to create a rule where Damon fans can't mention what others do wrong. But, both Stefan and Kai fans will often use what Damon has done wrong to defend their fave character, so double standard here?

I am not trying to "create any rule". This is not the first time I've noticed your inability to understand or want to understand what I say which makes responding to you rather tiresome. I concurred to a point made a few posts back by Taylor that Damon defence always hinges on him being compared to other characters while the other characters's are defended by their motivations in-story. Considering that your every response to this is always to bring up other villains (mind you - villains, who technically speaking, aren't even comparable to Damon who is supposed to be a hero in this story), you keep proving that point. All you've proven is that there is no objective explanation for Damon's actions.

But don't think that the victim blaming of Bonnie is also a part of the problem and isn't just as damaging?

OK, let me take a deep breath and unpack how ridiculous this statement is.

Caroline is repeatedly victim-blamed for her own rape in the story. From her mother sighing at her teenage daughter for dating 'inappropriate' older men to her friends being oblivious of the fact that she's abused, including Elena slut-shaming her for it, and Bonnie being indifferent enough to become best friends with Damon. At no point in the story is Bonnie victim-blamed for what Kai did to her. Instead her decision to lock up Kai is supported by everyone - from her friends to his family.

Unlike Bonnie, Caroline has to put up with her rapist being perpetually in her life - as her best friend's boyfriend, as her other best friend's best friend, as her now-boyfriend's brother. Bonnie tolerates Kai's presence in her life for all of two episodes. Caroline has to deal with her rapist for 7 seasons and she's perpetually told by everyone from Elena to Stefan to Bonnie herself to suck it up. At what point exactly, did anyone tell Bonnie told to suck it up about Kai? Did anyone force Bonnie to confront her abuser or deal with him or be in the same space with him? Oh... wait a moment... I think someone did. Someone called DAMON!

Unlike Bonnie, Caroline's rape is never acknowledge in the story!

Unlike Bonnie, Caroline's abuser is never punished for abusing her!

Unlike Bonnie, Caroline never gets to have Damon raped back!

Unlike Bonnie, Caroline never gets an apology or a show of remorse for what Damon did to her! Never even gets an acknowledgement that he did anything to her!

That you think that these two scenarios are remotely comparable - and do not in fact, indicate how offensive Damon's treatment of Caroline has been handled in the show... just shows how determined you are to apply any and every possible argument in Damon's defence, regardless of how irrational the argument is.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

But don't think that the victim blaming of Bonnie is also a part of the problem and isn't just as damaging?

OK, let me take a deep breath and unpack how ridiculous this statement is.

Caroline is repeatedly victim-blamed for her own rape in the story. From her mother sighing at her teenage daughter for dating 'inappropriate' older men to her friends being oblivious of the fact that she's abused, including Elena slut-shaming her for it, and Bonnie being indifferent enough to become best friends with Damon. At no point in the story is Bonnie victim-blamed for what Kai did to her. Instead her decision to lock up Kai is supported by everyone - from her friends to his family.

Unlike Bonnie, Caroline has to put up with her rapist being perpetually in her life - as her best friend's boyfriend, as her other best friend's best friend, as her now-boyfriend's brother. Bonnie tolerates Kai's presence in her life for all of two episodes. Caroline has to deal with her rapist for 7 seasons and she's perpetually told by everyone from Elena to Stefan to Bonnie herself to suck it up. At what point exactly, did anyone tell Bonnie told to suck it up about Kai? Did anyone force Bonnie to confront her abuser or deal with him or be in the same space with him? Oh... wait a moment... I think someone did. Someone called DAMON!

Unlike Bonnie, Caroline's rape is never acknowledge in the story!

Unlike Bonnie, Caroline's abuser is never punished for abusing her!

Unlike Bonnie, Caroline never gets to have Damon raped back!

Unlike Bonnie, Caroline never gets an apology or a show of remorse for what Damon did to her! Never even gets an acknowledgement that he did anything to her!

That you think that these two scenarios are remotely comparable - and do not in fact, indicate how offensive Damon's treatment of Caroline has been handled in the show... just shows how determined you are to apply any and every possible argument in Damon's defence, regardless of how irrational the argument is.

Is it possible to marry a post? Because I want to marry yours?

Also, a rapist showing genuine remorse for his crimes is actually a popular survivor's fantasy because so many survivors deal with being blamed for their own rape, implicitly or explicitly from the rapist, to the Law, to even one's own family. That Damon-fangirls can even use this as a point in his favour - that he didn't "bother" Caroline by apologising or trying to atone for his actions to her - shows how tone-deaf and utterly misogynistic they are. They are the most disgusting set of people in fandom.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

You can address me directly since you are keeping track of what I post and have mentioned me by name. For all of the claims to have me on ignore and but have mentioned by name and are obsessed with I and other Bamon fans because you want to call out Damon's wrong doings. While wanting and expecting people to say silent about Kai's wrongdoings and are salty because the truth of his abuse and torment of Bonnie gets pointed out.

Accept that some see Kai as a sociopath/psychopath because your bitterness towards Damon/Bamon fans obviously comes back to how some dislike Kai and mention his wrong doings. Want Kai's wrongdoings to be ignore and not mentioned, while you harp on Damon's and want Kai's to be brushed under the rug just because he is dead.

Can't take you seriously a Kai fangirl excusing and justifying his actions on him being dead and accusing the Damon fandom of white washing when you Stan Kai and are part of a Kai fandom that constantly whitewashes and excuses his actions. Still holding a grudge because not all Bamon fans worship Kai as the misunderstood puppy that some Kai Stans paint him as and don't worship Kai as Bonnie's "hero", like some do.

Still keeping track of what I do and are worried about what I post or here or twitter. You can always address me directly and put me off of ignore if you still have that much of a problem with me.

But, can't take a Kai worshiper/fangirl seriously when you show outrage towards Damon. Since you are bitter for Kai's problematic behaviors and actions being mentioned.

If you ever have the will to take me off of ignore, like you have to keep mentioning me!

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Damn you hit the nail right on the head. Excellent post.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Where did I ever say that there was nothing wrong with TVD having rapists?

Yes, the show has handled Damon's rape of Caroline wrong and it's offensive. Now for you to imply that the FANS who victim blame Bonnie and who attack Bonnie is this story aren't as bad as the writers who excuse Damon's rape in the story line is offensive and reprehensible. There is no excuse for it anymore than the writers white washing over Damon's rape are.

They are on the same level as bad because both enable the culture of victim blaming and excusing the male characters off of good looks and being popular. Some just go on about how hot and good looking that Kai is to be a fan of his and defend his abuse. No different from those in real life who actually will defend rapist/abusers off of the men being popular or good looking.

What's irrational is U refusing to see how the writers and any of in the fandom who has ever victim blamed Bonnie are the same. The writers have their fault for enabling people to whitewash over Damon's rape and those that choose to whitewash over Kai's abuse of Bonnie have theirs.

What's the explanation or excuse for the fact that Kai is written as a villain and that the writing was meant to show Bonnie as lashing back at the man who abused and tormented her, but people don't support the writing and don't support Bonnie's decision and call her all sorts of names, writing long metas for why she was in the wrong for locking Kai in 1903 and acting like Kai was a victim of hers. WHat's your explanation for how they call Bonnie a B**** for locking up Kai and going on and on about how they feel sorry for Kai?

Go to Bonnie's Wiki page and see the comments from people blaming Bonnie and acting like she he was her abuse victim instead of the other way around. Go to see how they say that Bonnie provoked Kai into stabbing her, go to see how they use "She hurt him first" to justify everything that he did to her in 1994. Basically saying the same lines that abuse enablers say about how women in abusive relationships anger and provoke the men into hitting and abusing them.

Look at the comments under the 6x17 youtube videos with Bonnie and/or Bonnie/Kai and see the people calling her names and blaming her and going "Poor Kai" "How could Bonnie do that to him" "Bonnie is a B..." "Bonnie is wrong" They don't support Bonnie as the victim striking back and that is a fact. They paint Kai as the innocent victim turned good and done wrong by Bonnie.

[b]Am I the only one who thinks Bonnie is being majorly hypocritical? I get her anger, hurt, not wanting to see him (BUT THEIR CHEMISTRY!) but she was the one who attacked Kai first! In the prison world, she killed him & tried to leave him behind then he retaliated. They are way more than even now, especially as he saved her life & brought her back. I hope someone actually bothers telling her that.

At the moment I actually hate bonnie. Kai was actually starting to be good but she just couldn't let what happened go and now he's back to being evil because she left him in the prison world. Sure he deserved it, but bonnie getting annoying now.

Damn it Bonnie you're suppose to be above this. This is something you shouldn't do. The man is asking for forgiveness consider this before you kill and leave him.

[i]Sorry but I can't get over the fact that Bonnie try to kill Kai.. again! Here are my 8 reasons oh why I think that was unfair:
1. When they first meet he flirts with her (locator spell scene) he show them the way to get out but Bonnie stab him with an axe on his chest because he didn't know the spell and so they don't longer need him (she started the whole stabbing trilogy)
2. Then Kai stab her with an arrow because they were leaving him behind (now they are even), and notice the next scene she wakes up on the couch (he didn't let her on the ground)
3. He ask her to help him to arm the ascendant so they can get out.. she refuse, he get mad and suck a little of her magic to threat her and she stab him with a pen (again, they are even).
4. He chases her because (after years of being in prison world and attempting to kill himself) he is desperate and don't want her to leave him behind again..
5. She freak out and crush a bunch of stuffs against him.. so he strangled her to threat her (they are even).
6. When they where about to leave (together) he told her he is not a monster and that he wanted to be more like him hopping her to be a good influence on him.. (and brought her Mr. Cuddles, that was cute) but she trick him dropping her magic on the bear (sabotaging their only chance to get out).
7. FUN FACT: Why she play victim saying he leave her alone? wasn't she the one who said "let's divide the world half and half and go separate ways"? and "I don't enjoy your company"? and btw the one who get rid off their chance to get out of prison world? WHY get mad at him for leave without her when she didn't want them to leave?!
8. And last one; the guy already apologize and ask for a second chance, Damon did worst things than him; including trying to kill her lovely Jeremy twice (but he have her brother and other people to save him from himself and lead him to be good) Kai didn't have anyone, his own father and family get rid of him..
So she can forget Damon but not Kai for kill his siblings? Hypocrite!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8dyUhbieLU

Just some of the comments that I found under the 6x17 videos for Bonnie if you even care or bother to read them. Or if you want to ignore them and act like they are okay to make and say that they aren't problematic as what the writers have done with Damon and the rape situation.

If you don't think that those who victim blame Bonnie are the same as the writers who brush over the rape of Caroline then you are being the irrational one, who can't see that people saying how Bonnie "provoked" Kai are on the same level as those who say that Caroline consented including JP and the writers.

COme back when you acknowledge that not everyone supports Bonnie as Kai's abuse victim and don't support the writers allowing her to lash out as an abuse victim.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

And once again your entire defence of Damon rests on "but other villains' are just as bad" and completely ignore the facts that - 1, Damon is not a villain, he's a hero so if you're holding him to the standards of a villain, then clearly there's something wrong there and 2, you still have not given a defence for Damon's actions. You have written an entire essay on How Bad Kai is and somehow you imagine that this is an explanation/excuse for Damon.

Yes, the show has handled Damon's rape of Caroline wrong and it's offensive. Now for you to imply that the FANS who victim blame Bonnie and who attack Bonnie is this story aren't as bad as the writers who excuse Damon's rape in the story line is offensive and reprehensible. There is no excuse for it anymore than the writers white washing over Damon's rape are.

They are on the same level as bad because both enable the culture of victim blaming and excusing the male characters off of good looks and being popular.

You've done this before which is extremely tiresome and in bad taste.

You are pretending that Bonnie's treatment by Kai's fans is equivalent to Caroline being ill-treated by the writers and Damon's fans.

Caroline being attacked by Damon defenders is as offensive as Bonnie being attacked by Kai defenders.

Caroline being shamed in the story for her own rape is more offensive than Bonnie being justified / Kai being punished.

They are not on the same level of bad. Qualitatively and quantitatively they are not. If you fail to see this then I have nothing further to discuss with you.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Nah it's not in bad taste. And if you think that way then *shrug* because I'm not going to change my views on how disgusting and wrong that I think that victim blaming in the fandom it. If you want to make me out as worse than those who victim blame go ahead.

Not pretending anything. You're the one who is acting like one case of victim blaming is not as bad as the other. That one case of excusing and whitewashing the abuse/rape that a woman goes through is not as bad as the other. You're the one pretending that Kai defender's attacking Bonnie isn't as offensive as Damon defender's attacking Caroline.

I've have called out the Damon fans who victim blame Caroline or who whitewash Damon's rape of Caroline and have listed the reasons for why it is indeed rape and for why they are wrong for saying that it isn't rape.

Now would you acknowledge to the fact that Kai fans who victim blame Bonnie for her abuse are in the wrong or going to act like I'm the one in the wrong for calling them out and thinking that they are just as bad as the ones who defend Damon's rape are?

Story is not the only thing that we are talking about here. If you ONLY have a problem with Caroline's rape being whitewashed and only focus on her, instead of focusing on how BOTH her and Bonnie are treated by the fandom in their rape/abuse situations then I have nothing to discuss with you anymore.

Clearly U think that only what Caroline goes through in the fandom matters. And that it's cool and okay for Bonnie to be attacked and victim blamed by some in the fandom,just because Kai is a villain or using Damon being written as a hero as your cover up and excuse for why you don't want to see them on the same level as bad.

Victim blaming is Victim blaming. Excusing rape/abuse is excusing rape/abuse. Defending a rapist/abuser for his rape/abuse, is defending a rapist/abuser for his rape/abuse. But. apparently Kai fans aren't as bad for blaming Bonnie as Damon fans and the writers. are for blaming Caroline.

Only Damon's case shows the rape culture. Kai case in no way shows the problem with abuse culture and victims in real life getting blamed like Bonnie got blamed.

No more discussion if you side with Kai fans for victim blaming Bonnie.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

You're the one who is acting like one case of victim blaming is not as bad as the other.

You are the one who is deliberately diminishing Damon being white-washed by the story and Caroline not getting the same comeuppance that Bonnie did and creating this false equivalent of either/or when it's more like either/more.

One case of victim blaming is fans defending a villain. One case of victim blaming is fans defending their fave and the writers making the rapist a hero. One case of victim blaming is Kai fans excusing his actions. The other case is Damon fans saying that Damon never raped Caroline in the first place and she was a slut for sleeping with him! So no, they are not as bad as the other and for you to insist on equating to do is offensive.

It is the literal equivalent of saying that a rape victim whose rapist gets away with his rape of her and goes on to become President of the United States is the same as an domestic violence victim whose husband is executed for beating her.

The society as a whole might victim-blame both women. But one victim gets justice while the other is told to suck it up. And for you to insist that the rapist and the assaulter are being giving equivalent treatment is extremely bad taste.

Of course, I will watch, unsurprised, as that metaphor escapes you.

No more discussion if you side with Kai fans for victim blaming Bonnie.

The fact that you think that there are even sides in this is a strong indication of how disconnected you have been so far from this conversation.

In addition to the fact that I literally wrote in the post that you're replying to:

Caroline being attacked by Damon defenders is as offensive as Bonnie being attacked by Kai defenders.

I agree that there is nothing to discuss here because you apparently lack the basic reading comprehension required to carry out a discussion.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Not diminishing since I have said that the writers are wrong for whitewashing over Damon's rape and pretending like it never happened. SInce I am calling what Damon did to Caroline rape how is that diminishing? I don't allow JP glossing over the fact to impact by views. Don't use her or the writers as an excuse to say that what Damon did wasn't rape. I have explained why it is rape because of Damon compelling Caroline and taking away her ability to consent, so again how am I diminishing by saying that it was rape?

What does Kai having to be the Villain have to do with how wrong it is to victim blame? Kai's a villain his fans make him out to be a misunderstood hero, no different from your claims of the writers making Damon a hero.

For you to say that they aren't equally as bad is offensive. You are belittling and making a competition out of what abuse victims have to face vs what rape victims have to face. When I think that they are both awful.

A rapist getting away with rape, an sign of the rape culture that society has. Caroline getting slut shamed a sign of how real life victims get slut shamed and victim blamed and for that those who say that Damon didn't rape Caroline are wrong. The fact that some only view rape in a certain way is a problem with rape culture and it shows it how some defend Damon's rape of Caroline.

Now, this is why it's offensive and a problem for you to act like people who defend and excuse Kai for his abuse are not equally as bad.

If an abuse victim in real life is trying to get justice and have her abuser sent to prison. Especially if he abused and tormented her to the point of almost killing her and did such emotional and mental damage to her that he got her ptsd and almost caused her to kill herself.

And she wanted him in prison and out of her life and away from her, wanted him locked up and tried to find ways to get him locked away or at least out of her life and you have a group of people sitting back and attacking her, defending the man who abused her/almost caused her her life. Defending him and standing up for him and making excuses for her abuser, feeling sorry for her abuser.

Going after her reputation and character, bashing and trashing her character and reputation. Calling her names and making her out to be the bad guy. In an attempt to make him look innocent and better. Then U wouldn't find that troubling?

Because pretty much yes Bonnie got to lock Kai in the prison world but was made out to be the villain and bad guy for it. Just like if a woman tried to get the man who abused her and raped her thrown in prison and tried to get justice and he may not have gotten away with it and got sent to court or locked up. But, she is STILL made out to be the bad guy and villain because he is locked up and some blame her for the man being in prison or her wanting him out of her life.

Those angry that Bonnie locked Kai in the prison world, is like those in real life who would get angry at a victim of violence who wants her abuser/tormentor/rapist locked up in prison. And acting like she should turn the other cheek and not go after charges on the man who hurt her. Getting angry at the victim because she didn't allow the man to walk free and get away with it. Because of the man being good looking or popular they want her to allow him to walk free and invade himself into her life.

Imagine a rapist getting what he deserves and being sent to prison and serving time and instead of a group of people being happy about that, they are upset because he is not free and DIDN"T get away with it. And they start to make the rape victims life harder by blaming her and attacking her because she helped sent him to prison. Because if they got what they wanted then the rapist would have gotten away with rape or they think they he should have because he was nice for five minutes or did some decent things in his life.

Now does that go over YOUR head?

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Imagine a rapist getting what he deserves and being sent to prison and serving time and instead of a group of people being happy about that, they are upset because he is not free and DIDN"T get away with it.

Obviously, I have to imagine it - since that never happened in the show. A point. that. continually. escapes. you.

Like I said - my metaphor completely went over your head since at no point in your increasingly lengthy, off-topic replies did you once address it. Whenever you are confronted with arguments you cannot counter, you derail them with random rants like this:

Because pretty much yes Bonnie got to lock Kai in the prison world but was made out to be the villain and bad guy for it. Just like if a woman tried to get the man who abused her and raped her thrown in prison and tried to get justice and he may not have gotten away with it and got sent to court or locked up. But, she is STILL made out to be the bad guy and villain because he is locked up and some blame her for the man being in prison or her wanting him out of her life.

The operative word there being "like" - the key difference that completely escapes you being that Caroline did not lock up Damon and he wasn't punished for her rape. Not only are you unable to defend Damon without mentioning Kai, you are not even able to structure your arguments coherently around him.

Let's have this discussion when Caroline has arranged for Damon to get raped and ripped his heart out of his chest, Stefan and Bonnie, and Elena and everyone else cheer her for this and Julie Plec goes on record to say that Damon raped Caroline and his comeuppance was long overdue. Then we can argue about the degree of support from fans for both women. Until then, this will always be a false equivalence as you very well know and it is clear that rather than lacking basic reading comprehension, you are deliberately bringing up fallacious logic to justify/vindicate your attachment to a rapist character and whatever you "say" about Damon being a rapist, certainly does not translate to how you "Act" about it. This whole discussion is tiresome. We have devolved to a point where I am literally explaining why 1 does not equal 2 or how 2 is greater than 1.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

We are never going to see the same on this. But, I have read some people who said that they have been in abusive relationships, saying how they have been bothered or triggered by Bonnie/Kai interaction. And then actually are attacked by Kai/BK Stans for expressing their views against Kai. Kai being the villain doesn't stop people from being triggered and may not stop how some people feel in seeing him defended.

You're unable to see why victim blaming is wrong all around without trying to single it down to Damon and Damon fans and that's why we will never agree on this subject. SO I guess this will end the conversation between us.

ANd we will never agree if you don't see how Bonnie being victim blamed is just as troubling as Caroline being victim blamed.

The writers and TVD fans alike both diminishing how Bonnie is treated within the writing and the fandom I'm used to anyway. One of the other characters treatment within the show and fandom will always be worse than Bonnie's in some eyes. Some will always use what others go through to point out to Bonnie fans why we shouldn't have a problem with how she is treated.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

ANd we will never agree if you don't see how Bonnie being victim blamed is just as troubling as Caroline being victim blamed.

The writers and TVD fans alike both diminishing how Bonnie is treated within the writing and the fandom I'm used to anyway. One of the other characters treatment within the show and fandom will always be worse than Bonnie's in some eyes. Some will always use what others go through to point out to Bonnie fans why we shouldn't have a problem with how she is treated.

Until the writers of this show depict Bonnie as being in the wrong for what happened between her and Kai. Until they portray Kai as a hero or her family/friends tell Bonnie to 'get over' what he did to her. Until we see a season where Caroline and Kai become best friends, Damon and Kai become lovers and Enzo adopts Kai as a blood-brother, there is no way the two situations will be just as problematic.

But, I have read some people who said that they have been in abusive relationships, saying how they have been bothered or triggered by Bonnie/Kai interaction.

I am deeply sympathetic to them. I imagine it must have been doubly triggering for them to have witnessed all the violence, sexual abuse, psychological manipulation and confidence-stripping that Damon subjected Caroline to when she was under his thrall; and have to live with the realisation that much like reality, rapists and molesters not only get exonerated, but also live far more fulfilling lives than their victims. I imagine it was even more triggering to witness the physical abuse and verbal assault that Damon hurled at Bonnie over the span of 6 seasons, constantly calling her worthless and useless and treating her like a literal slave - which while never sexual, was just as damaging - only for his former victim to now being written as someone willing to die for him. That Bonnie was a black woman being sacrificed to save Damon's white love interest was also racially triggering and depicts the abuse that happens in some WMBW relationships. I can imagine that watching the show at this point in time must be borderline traumatic for them, reminding them of the cycle of abuse/reconciliation that they must have gone through in their own relationships where they were forced into devotion to someone at whose hands they had suffered so much, but found themselves unable to stop loving.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Until the writers of this show depict Bonnie as being in the wrong for what happened between her and Kai. Until they portray Kai as a hero or her family/friends tell Bonnie to 'get over' what he did to her. Until we see a season where Caroline and Kai become best friends, Damon and Kai become lovers and Enzo adopts Kai as a blood-brother, there is no way the two situations will be just as problematic.

My point is that even if the writers are the show don't depict Bonnie as being in the wrong. The ones who do depict her in the wrong are just as problematic. Because I find those same attitudes that some will actually have in the real world when it comes to victims of abuse, are what makes it difficult in society for abuse and rape victims to come forward.

The fact is that real life abusers/rapist will get defended and whitewashed because they are good looking or popular. And this is damaging if the same who blame Bonnie, would have the same attitudes about a real life abuse victim. Because they are overall a part of the problem in the abuse/rape culture.

It's the same type of attitude that you see in the Johnny Depp/Amber heard case. Fact is that Bonnie victim blaming is a problem, because that's how it is in real life for abuse and rape victims and they hesitate to come forward because of how some in society will view and treat them.

Damon and how he is written could very well bother and trigger some people. TVD has many abusive and problematic relationships. I acknowledge all that Damon has done wrong. As long as it is also acknowledged that it's not Damon and Damon's relationships solely that are problematic or that can bother and trigger people.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

My point is that even if the writers are the show don't depict Bonnie as being in the wrong.

And my point is that everyone depicts Caroline as being in the wrong - Damon fans and the writers.

As long as it is also acknowledged that it's not Damon and Damon's relationships solely that are problematic or that can bother and trigger people.

Acknowledged by whom?

The fans? The writers?

On this very thread, I am arguing with your fellow Damon-lover who vehemently denies that Damon did not rape Caroline - because the writers never said so! Damon still exists, 6 seasons later, and as depicted as a hero. No one is arguing if Kai stabbed Bonnie. But Damon fans not too far removed from you, still bring up the most ridiculous explanations for why Damon did not really rape Caroline.

Even now, people can watch TVD and avoid whatever the fans think or feel about a lot of characters. No one can watch TVD and avoid that the writers never bothered to define Caroline's rape or whitewashed Damon-the-rapist or turned a rapist into the hero of the show.

Like I said, at this point I'm not even arguing morality or ethics or even common sense with you. I'm arguing Maths. And if you can't see that 2 (writers and fans defending Damon) is not equal to 1 (fans defending Kai etc) or that 2 is greater than 1... once again... ::sigh:: I'm not even sure why I bother.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

There are actually some Damon fans and even Ian himself that say that Damon raped Caroline. So not all of us agree with the Damon fans who do whitewash Caroline's rape and we don't agree with how writers whitewashing the rape either. JP has been called out by some Damon fans for her refusal to write or acknowledge what Damon did as rape.

As well as Damon fans who do believe that it was rape, trying to point out to the ones who don't believe it was rape why it was rape. The consent issue has been explained and some Damon fans just don't want to buy into it. It's wrong that they will use JP's words as a reason to excuse the rape and JP does enable them to gloss over the rape.

Still there are Damon fans and Ian himself who will come to the defense of Caroline. Ian will actually acknowledge all of what Damon has done wrong including to Bonnie/Stefan/Caroline/Jeremy etc.... and won't sugarcoat it and for that some will say that he doesn't get the Damon character. It's some who happen to ship Damon with Elena who will just defend all that Damon does in the name of their ship.

And I still say that Katherine's rape of Stefan also has to be acknowledged. Her relationship with him is still hyped into a romantic ship. As well as we have to face all of the other vampires who used compulsion to make their victims more willing to get what they wanted from them.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

There are actually some Damon fans and even Ian himself that say that Damon raped Caroline. So not all of us agree with the Damon fans who do whitewash Caroline's rape and we don't agree with how writers whitewashing the rape either. JP has been called out by some Damon fans for her refusal to write or acknowledge what Damon did as rape.

Well the story doesn't agree with them. And the likes of bluesex can always fall back on what "canon" says. As we've both seen on this thread, Ian can shout it from the roof-tops and I can type until my fingers fall off all the ways why Damon committed rape and it doesn't make a lick of difference and that is entirely on the writers and the story they chose to tell.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

There is no doubt that how they whitewash Damon's rape is one of the many problems that the writers have on this show. I don't always agree with their writing when it comes to Damon and how they write in ways that enable him to go out and be self destructive or harmful towards others.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

I have nothing at all to say against this. It is nice to find common ground.

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

I understand what you're saying. If we're going to compare, bottom line is Kai was punished for pretty much every single move he made, these punishments included 18 years of being in prison, and ultimately his death. Not once did the show make him out to be a victim, he made comments about his family, but ultimately they were never corroborated. In the end he died as he lived: violently.

That's why it's hard to compare Damon to a villain (especially villains like Kai or even Katherine) because on paper he isn't one, yet, sometimes his actions say otherwise. I don't even have to bring up Caroline, I can mention Damon putting Enzo up to kidnapping Bonnie and Jeremy in season 5 because Elena/Katherine hurt his feelings. Damon does things out of anger, which is fine if they want to write him this way, but there has to be accountability, even if in the end it actually works out in his favor, still acknowledge it.

What I find funny are two things fans blame, and or were angry with Damon for, I actually defend. His choice to dessicate and his attitude when Lily died.

Fan opinions, are just that, opinions, in the grand scheme of things what they personally feel at times is trivial, and has no bearing whatsoever on the writing. In this instance of comparing and contrasting, Bonnie was actually granted justice, regardless of how certain fans felt...for what? The second time, the first being Silas. A whole hell of a lot happened to Bonnie before season 5 and yet Silas was the first time she truly got to get revenge, before then everything she went through was trivialized or swept under the rug.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Oh thank goodness, I was beginning to question my own rationality. It is such a simple argument that I wondered how it was repeatedly going over awesomebamon's head.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Yeah I'm probably done on this thread, it's changed to so many arguments it's ridioclus.

First it was about Damon's behavior

Then it's Damon vs Klaus

Then Damon vs Stefan

Then Damon vs Katherine

Then Damon vs Kai

Now it's Caroline's atrocities vs Bonnie's

On the other half its Stefan's PAST vs Damon's PAST.

The argument constantly been changed from human morals to the shows writing, which is why all these retorts about Kai's actions or Ripper Stefan's actions vs Damon's are equal etc, lol it's like Caroline being a main character isn't a factor and isn't connected to the other 6 mains. So Bluesy and AwesomeBamon, I'll see y'all next time.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Head and brick wall is starting to apply I think.
This circular argument won't be resolved because people cant admit to themselves that they behave and argue in exactly the same way as Damon fans. For some reason excusing and defending other characters is ok, but not if it is Damon. The moral superiority complexes that are being exhibited whilst at the same time being completely hypocritical is going straight over their heads.

You are making some valid points that are repeatedly ignored in favour of condecension and righteousness. It is impossible to discuss Damon's actions without discussing other characters actions too because like I said earlier, his actions do not exist in a vaccuum.

I know you don't share my view on the rape issue, but just know this. It wasn't an issue at all in this fandom until S3 aired and Damon looked to be gaining some traction on winning Elena's love. It was a desperate allegation that was levelled at Damon by furious Stelena fans and Damon haters to undermine the storytelling. Prior to that there was no mention of what Damon did to Caroline as being interpreted as rape, and if there was it wasn't voiced because actually people didn't give a crap...,because it wasn't affecting the EPIC love story. They won't acknowledge that by those standards, Stefan Katherine and pretty much all the older vampires are rapists....betcha!

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

I can't speak for the fandom, only myself and I have had an issue with Damon raping Caroline since the episode where Damon raped Caroline. I imagine the 1 out of 4 women in the US who statistically will be victims of sexual assault at least once in their lives also had an issue with it when it was aired. That you can actually believe that the only reasons why women will have a problem with watching a rapist turned into a hero on a show targeted at female teenagers is because of "shipping" shows ... well, it shows you've been a very fortunate woman in your life and I'll leave it at that.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

I can't speak for the fandom, only myself and I have had an issue with Damon raping Caroline since the episode where Damon raped Caroline. I imagine the 1 out of 4 women in the US who statistically will be victims of sexual assault at least once in their lives also had an issue with it when it was aired

Where were they then? I understand that those kind of scenes can be triggering for victims of abuse, I just have an issue with the coincidental timings of the outrage. The show had been on air for 3 whole years before this issue began to get raised on public forums and social media and it was nearly always by disgruntled Stelena fans who were pissed at the writers. That is my experience in this fandom and I have been around it a very long time, so yes I am cynical around the motivations of the fandom in bringing the issue up especially since the accusations are generally only levelled at Damon.

If you have felt that way about the show since those scenes were aired right at the start, I'm staggered that you even give it a minute of your time and support, never mind 7 years of it.

well, it shows you've been a very fortunate woman in your life and I'll leave it at that.

Well you would be wrong about that.......but this has nothing to do with my personal life so I would prefer not to discuss it since it isn't up for public consumption. Please respect that.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

If you have felt that way about the show since those scenes were aired right at the start, I'm staggered that you even give it a minute of your time and support, never mind 7 years of it.

I never expected Damon to be made into the hero of the story. He was not one at the start, nor was he one in the source material. He wasn't a rapist in the source material either. It was a storyline that I kept expecting to pay off and only came to terms with that it was never going to. I actively stopped watching this show in season 4 so it lost my time and support around the time that it chose to canonise a rapist.

I have no intention of disrespecting your personal life and I'm sorry for whatever circumstances you have gone through that led you to say that. In turn however, I wonder if you can extend that same curtesy to others? Or at least consider how your repeated insistent defence of a rapist might be triggering to others who have actually lived through real-life defence of their own rapists? As you have chosen to remain private about your circumstances, so might many others on this very thread. Have you thought of that? It was something I pointed out to your at length when I first explained to you how pointless it is to argue against this. No one who already knows Damon as a rapist is going to be convinced otherwise by any iteration of argument that you will put forward. All it will succeed in doing is triggering/offending a lot of people who take this matter to heart on a much closer level than you realise, and make them even more resolute in seeing him so because of the echoes between art and life, so to speak.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

I never expected Damon to be made into the hero of the story. He was not one at the start, nor was he one in the source material. He wasn't a rapist in the source material either.

Firstly, he isn't the hero in this story either. He is consistently portrayed as being the bad brother and wrong.
Secondly, the story isn't finished yet and the books were never finished by the original writer either but the story in the books was beginning to evolve Damon, and you are correct...the source material did not depict Damon as a rapist. It isn't canon in either version. If it becomes part of the story you will see a completely different attitude from me.

I actively stopped watching this show in season 4 so it lost my time and support around the time that it chose to canonise a rapist.

You stopped watching? well if you say so.
Even if I believe you, 4 seasons is still a long time to support a show that glosses over rape (according to you) from several characters at this point. Add that to the fact that you are still commenting on the show 4 years after that and you seem to have a pretty in-depth grasp of the story you say you don't watch. You do realise that being here and commenting is supporting the show.

I have no intention of disrespecting your personal life and I'm sorry for whatever circumstances you have gone through that led you to say that. In turn however, I wonder if you can extend that same curtesy to others? Or at least consider how your repeated insistent defence of a rapist might be triggering to others who have actually lived through real-life defence of their own rapists? As you have chosen to remain private about your circumstances, so might many others on this very thread. Have you thought of that? It was something I pointed out to your at length when I first explained to you how pointless it is to argue against this

You are trying to censor my opinion based on realities that I have no control over. It isn't my intention to trigger people or be insensitive to those realities, but I am not responsible for those people choosing to be here and participate. I never bring up the subject because my personal belief is that it has no place here but other people seem to want to talk about it alot. I won't apologise for joining in on a discussion board and defending my POV, I don't force people to read or respond to my opinions.
I am truly sorry if my comments upset you personally, like I said it is not my intention and I can't help it if people struggle with separating reality from fiction that is also based in fantasy/sci-fy.
Your defense of Stefan and his actions could also be seen as triggering to some people. I measure both boys by the same yardstick....your opinions seem to be based on selectivity of what you will accept as canon and what you won't.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

I never bring up the subject because my personal belief is that it has no place here but other people seem to want to talk about it alot.

Well, you did bring up the subject in the first place. No doubt a lot of people will wonder how someone who has undergone any form of sexual assault would take the stance that you currently do. I guess they'll just have to take your word for it, being unable to approve/disprove it in anyway. Far be it for anyone to call anyone else a liar on the internet.

Even if I believe you, 4 seasons is still a long time to support a show that glosses over rape (according to you) from several characters at this point. Add that to the fact that you are still commenting on the show 4 years after that and you seem to have a pretty in-depth grasp of the story you say you don't watch. You do realise that being here and commenting is supporting the show.

The oddly-reasonable, yet on close examination, insupportable and illogical claim that discussing a problematic issue is equivalent to 'supporting' it. That by 'seeing no evil, speaking no evil and hearing no evil' somehow makes the evil disappear.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

I never bring up the subject because my personal belief is that it has no place here but other people seem to want to talk about it alot.

Well, you did bring up the subject in the first place. No doubt a lot of people will wonder how someone who has undergone any form of sexual assault would take the stance that you currently do. I guess they'll just have to take your word for it, being unable to approve/disprove it in anyway. Far be it for anyone to call anyone else a liar on the internet.

☕

😀😀😀😀

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Well, you did bring up the subject in the first place

Umm nope, I didn't.

No doubt a lot of people will wonder how someone who has undergone any form of sexual assault would take the stance that you currently do.

Again, I will respectfully ask that you do not attempt do bring into the discussion my personal life and judge it as if you know anything about me. It's not up for discussion.

discussing a problematic issue is equivalent to 'supporting' it. That by 'seeing no evil, speaking no evil and hearing no evil' somehow makes the evil disappear.

Your being pedantic, what I meant was talking about the show in whatever capacity creates a buzz and generates interest on TVD web pages which is attention for the show, therefore supports it. There are plenty of other places to vent your opinions and to talk about the issues you have that would probably be more cathartic for you and more constructive than here. I respect your right to do it here if you so choose, but then please do not expect me to censor my views on the show.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Umm nope, I didn't.

Again, I will respectfully ask that you do not attempt do bring into the discussion my personal life and judge it as if you know anything about me. It's not up for discussion.

Well so far, no one has discussed your personal life and the only reason why it's in this conversation at all is because of what you chose to reveal - for the sake of an argument about a fictional character. Indeed, of all the participants in this thread, you are the only one who felt the need to bring up your personal life in anyway. While I spoke about these matters in general terms, you felt the need to indicate about yours in specific, personal terms.

For the record, considering that your personal life is not something that is in my power to prove or disprove, I really have no interest in discussing it. I don't, however, need to go into the details of your personal life, to wonder why a message forum about a fictional TV alleged rapist merited you bringing your personal life into this discussion in the first place.

Your being pedantic, what I meant was talking about the show in whatever capacity creates a buzz and generates interest on TVD web pages which is attention for the show, therefore supports it.

I am quite certain that isn't how it works. Considering that nothing from renewals or sponsorship deals are based on IMDB forum pages. Furthermore, considering that the show is up for cancellation and that is not likely to change, this is entirely a moot point and in this particular circumstances, you are the one being pedantic.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

I try very hard not to discuss the head canon that Damon raped Caroline...been there and done that over and over again but the same 7 or 8 people just love to bring it up over and over and use it as a reason to bash Damon even though it isn't part of the show or acknowledged canon by the characters or the writers.

We will never agree on this subject so there is no point in discussing a non existent plot point or using it to inform characterisation or story because it doesn't exist in this world view for ANY of the vampires.

Instead of just addressing "hey, Damon did rape Caroline, it was wrong, it's pretty bad writing that Caroline has tolerated him this long without a apology of some sort."

The writing isn't the problem in so much as they have been very consistent with how they have viewed and portrayed Damon's actions towards Caroline and Andie, Katherine and Stefan and also Stefan and all the women he compelled and slept with and so and so on.
If it's your interpretation of the writing that rape occurred even when it has been explicitly stated and defended by the writers that it wasn't the intended reaction then I don't know what else to say except for why are you watching and supporting a show full of rapists?

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Lol Ian Somerhalder just stated this year that Damon did rape Caroline. The Ripper, as far the show has shown, equated the blood feed to being better than sex, it's pretty much shown in 3x03 when they shoot the shot to make it look like he's having sex with a woman and instead is feeding on her. Same with the twister game in S3. Once again, you're acting like I care that Damon is. a rapist, I don't, it's the writing and how stuff major like this is so glossed over.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Are you justifying Stefan? Explaining away his actions?

It was made pretty explicit by Stefans journals that Stefan was having sex with these women. "Stefans not a virgin"?
It's clear that he had compelled women to let him feed on them it's not a reach that he slept with women too, or did he seduce them with sex then rip them apart?

you're acting like I care that Damon is. a rapist, I don't, it's the writing and how stuff major like this is so glossed over.

Your arguments say different, unless you don't like the fact that the same accusations are levelled at Stefan with the same paper thin reasonings. The point i'm trying to make is that by defending what Stefan did is agreeing that the same logic and theorising can be applied to Damon, unless you are a hypocrite of course.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Except I'm not bringing Damon up to defend Stefan, I'm also not explaining away his actions, in the show he's not shown to be obsessed with the women specifically but the feed, I'd say he seduced them just to rip them apart, which is still terrible. Hell, idk if Damon's raped any other women, but he did Caroline, & you explain it away with Julie saying it's not so its not. Damon's the hero of the show, no matter what anyone says, the show revolves around him, he gets the main storyline, he's the focal point, this is a huge flaw that hasn't been addressed by any main character besides Caroline, and it's mentioned by her once, when she just pushes him and says "you really suck" wow such a consequence.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

I'm also not explaining away his actions, in the show he's not shown to be obsessed with the women specifically but the feed,

This is justifying....the action is still the same, they still end up raped according to the yardstick that people are purporting around here.

I'd say he seduced them just to rip them apart, which is still terrible.

Yes it is, and Damon was shown to seduce Caroline so he could feed on her, equally terrible.
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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Lol I'm not justifying it, it's still not right, he's more obsessed with the blood than the women, so why would he rape them? The ones he slept with he probably seduced to later rip them I doubt he needed compulsion, like Damon didn't. But, I doubt he compelled then slept with them, just ripped their heads right off, Ripper Stefan wasn't one for self control. Damon continously slept, fed from, and abused Caroline. Neither of them are right.

Put it like this, if Stefan had raped Bonnie, and whenever she made something of it after it happened and was shamed, silenced, and no one batted an eye while Stefan was everyone's favorite person, I'd call him out for the exact same thing.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Lol I'm not justifying it, it's still not right, he's more obsessed with the blood than the women, so why would he rape them?

But, I doubt he compelled then slept with them,

Ok, you think that Stefan (who was ruled by his blood lust) would seduce a woman, have sex with her just to get at her blood and kill her? Why? it does not make sense why not skip the sex and go straight to the point. It makes more sense that he would feed first if blood was his main motivation and I don't think many women would allow him to that without compulsion first. Face it, it's likely that Stefan used a combination of seduction and compulsion to control women to get what he needed and wanted. Stefan was as depraved and as psychotic as they come and we know he was indulging in all aspects of his life.

Put it like this, if Stefan had raped Bonnie, and whenever she made something of it after it happened and was shamed, silenced, and no one batted an eye while Stefan was everyone's favorite person, I'd call him out for the exact same thing.

I seriously doubt that.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

I doubt it, it's probably a game to him, be with the girl, rip her head off.

I don't doubt it, unlike Stefan's stanning fangirls, I don't care how he looks, I don't care who he's with on the show, if he was getting the same treatment for raping a main character, a la Damon, I'd be questioning it just like I am now. There's no reason not to.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Lol I'm not justifying it, it's still not right, he's more obsessed with the blood than the women, so why would he rape them?

LOL, I forgot about this little gem.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Lol I'm not justifying it, it's still not right, he's more obsessed with the blood than the women, so why would he rape them?

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Stefan did use compelling to feed off of women and take away their decision on whether or not they wanted to give him their blood. We know that they are vampires and feeding is part of their thing. But, still vampires compelling people to sleep with them is like putting a date rape drug in their drinks. And them compelling to feed from people would be like them drugging someone to take their blood without the person's permission or will.

Just because it wasn't on screen we aren't going to believe that Stefan didn't once use compulsion especially during his time as a ripper to sleep with women. Don't know if it for sure happened, but we can't say the it for sure didn't happen either. He was murdering and drinking blood without letting morals get in the way, so is it far fetched to think that he wouldn't care about using compulsion to get sex from a woman?

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Taking their blood isn't the same as rape. It really does depend on what he would first, feed or sleep with them, if he even was doing both all the time. So I agree we don't know if he did or if he didn't. I just don't think it's far fetched to say he didn't, or didn't care to have sex with the women at all.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

And MY point, not anyone else's point, mine, is that I really don't care if Damon has raped women in the past, it really wasn't the argument, so Stefan and the women in the past is terrible yes but not my point.

Damon raped Caroline Forbes, which if I believe so, was my first point on this thread, the OPs point was that he's horrible. Somewhere 10 pages back someone brought up other characters, and because like in almost every other Damon questioning thread People had to draw comparisons, because.. Well you guys can tell me.

The fact that Damon gets away IN THE SHOW with raping another main character,(and hell KILLING another!) is the problem. It's just a problem from a writers standpoint, im not even going to talk morally speaking just the fact that it's bad writing for the hero to have such a giant connected flaw and it be swept under the rug is mind boggling. Yes, the same exact argument stands for Enzo. But, he's also not the topic, Damon Salvatore was.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Well we know that at least Stefan uses his bloodlust/ripper mode to compel women so that he can freely feed off of them and use them as blood bags, then proceed to viciously murder them and rip of their heads. And that the show writing for Stefan to be addicted to blood and bloodlust allows some of his fans to excuse his vicious murders and abuse of women during his ripper stages. By saying that Stefan is an addict and alcoholic and giving him an out by claiming that he can't help himself when he murders in his blood lust because of his addiction. So, in a way the show enables Stefan to have an excuse for murder, where Damon is just seen as a cold blooded killer at times and the bad brother.

Even though someone killing/murdering while they are drunk or high shouldn't completely give them a free pass from killing. Stefan has that with the writers and some fans.

And helps Stefan get an out for not being seen as a right out cold blooded murderer.

Damon being a vampire and compelling women to get what he wants is excuses a part of his vampirism by the writers and bloodlust/ripper mode being a part of the disease that vampires get is used to explain about the hundreds that Stefan has killed as a ripper.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

The premise that Damon Salvatore raped Caroline Forbes is ridiculous. The writer/producer has unequivocally stated it did. not. happen. Ian Somerhalder did not write the script. It's like telling an artist the subject of their painting is different from the one they intended; Andy Worhal didn't really paint Campbell's Soup cans, instead they were tin soldiers and he was a warmonger for pushing this premise forward and it offends pacifists.

Depicted on film is vampire Damon compelling Caroline in order to feed from her. Depicted on film is Caroline pursuing Damon from day one to gleefully jump in bed with him. This is not victim shaming because Caroline was not a victim of sexual assault. She chose to go home with Damon for the express purpose of joining forces, hip to hip. Andi Starr also pursued Damon, loved him up "You can booty call me anytime you want!", and slipped into a bubble bath. He compelled her to feed from her. Not very nice, but why quibble? Damon is shown to have to compel these women for little things (usually when they are satisfied and getting dressed), which kinda shows they were not compelled to bump uglies or he wouldn't have needed to compel them again.

That is a moot point. Rape was not depicted, and those who choose to view this as a twisted unspoken event are responsible for their own bastardization of a good vampire tale. Why watch at all and why hang in there for seven seasons (or an additional five if you were waiting for a reckoning for this wayward vampire) if this show lifts up a rapist in your imagination? The last word and authority on the show said it did not happen. The end.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

👏👏👏

Finally. I hope you stick around. This board could use some common sense.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

You seem to be a common sense voice in the wilderness here. So many posts hysterically based on a false narrative, that being Damon is a rapist, when the authors of the series deny it carte blanch. There are areas of the story left for interpretation, but this has been stated time and time again not to be the case. It could not have been made more clear. Thus, it is within someone's imagination with an agenda twisting the story to fit whatever path they have chosen to fixate on. They hide in the dressing of "victim shaming" when someone such as yourself with a rational mind points out the obvious.

There was no sexual abuse depicted of Caroline Forbes or Andi Starr. To make them victims within this choice they made for sexual exploration is the true affront, suggesting that such behavior must be excused under the cloak of rape. The writers showed a grown woman making a choice to sleep with a man, and indeed pursue him. He accommodated. It was not shown that she objected or changed her mind about wanting to sleep with him. This is a separate issue from compelling to feed. The authors of this story provided magnanimously information regarding what we did not see on screen; Caroline Forbes chose to sleep with Damon without compulsion and her choices intact throughout their every interaction sexually. Really not so hard to understand.

If the barometer is disclosure of vampirism prior to sealing the deal, then Stefan is guilty as are most of the characters. To say that the authors don't understand the definition of rape and have shown it in spite of their best intentions is such a stretch, when indeed they have said without exception it did not happen. That means Caroline chose to do this without compulsion and not under duress. The desire of the viewer to want to place such reprehensible actions on the character, despite this gift of undeniable evidence to the contrary provided by the creators of the story and what was depicted on screen, speaks louder for the viewer then the writers.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

The desire of the viewer to want to place such reprehensible actions on the character, despite this gift of undeniable evidence to the contrary provided by the creators of the story and what was depicted on screen, speaks louder for the viewer then the writers.

And Damon's actor, Ian Somerhalder, too. This desire of his to declare the character he portrays as a rapist speaks just as loud about him.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

The desire of the viewer to want to place such reprehensible actions on the character, despite this gift of undeniable evidence to the contrary provided by the creators of the story and what was depicted on screen, speaks louder for the viewer then the writers.

And Damon's actor, Ian Somerhalder, too. This desire of his to declare the character he portrays as a rapist speaks just as loud about him.

I've no problem with your statement.

[–] HP_HG_Fan 8 years ago

It does NOT matter what the writers have to say on the topic. Whether or not they intended to have rape depicted is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that it was depicted. By any standard, someone who is not fully in their right mind cannot give consent. Someone who is not able to make her own decisions because her mind is being controlled clearly cannot consent, and if consent is not possible then it's rape. It doesn't matter that Caroline "jumped into bed with him" the first time. How hard is it to understand that consenting once =/ consenting infinitely? The moment he took her autonomy away from her, the ability to consent disappeared. She was asking this guy if he was going to kill her without even flinching at the thought, are you trying to say that someone like that was in her right frame of mind?

The actor calling it rape does say something about him: that he has a conscience.

S.P.E.R.M member 270

[–] orgine 8 years ago

In season 5 of Game of Thrones, there's the scene at Joffrey's wake when Jaimie raped Cersei. And there was a frank outcry from viewers because the scene that was shot, was completely different from what was written by Martin and was indeed - a rape scene.

The writers/director of the scene were clearly baffled by audience reaction because they probably thought they were filming some risque, but still consensual -- but everyone was clearly telling them that if a man grapples a woman to the ground beside their dead son's corpse as she's constantly saying, "No, No, No", it's rape.

So this constant "trump card" (see what I did there?) of claiming the Writers Are Infallible, is just dumb and intellectually lazy. According to JK Rowling's beloved Harry Potter books, Dumbledore was a kindly, wise old man who made some hard choices for the greater good. Because I have more than a few grey cells, I'm thinking that anyone who thought it was a good idea to live a one-year-old baby with a family that abused him on the regular for 11 years was a sociopath. A "well-intentioned" sociopath but a sociopath all the same.

The writers are infallible when they tell me that the Salvatores migrated from Italy or that Elena lost her appendix when she was 6 or Katherine Pierce's village was located in a specific place in Bulgaria. They're not infallible when they tell me what to think about what I actually see and watch on the show. It doesn't matter what they "intended" to depict with Damon/Caroline or Damon/Andie. They depicted rape. Anyone who's arguing otherwise is clearly someone who doesn't care to examine their crush on Damon too closely.

Ever notice how in these conversations, there's never a 'neutral' fan defending Damon. It's always a ride/die Damon-obssessed fan vs the masses. Wonder why. Apparently objectivity is not required when defending this plot.

[–] HP_HG_Fan 8 years ago

Excellent points! I remember people being angry that the show turned Jamie into a rapist when in the book the scene was consensual. I agree Dumbledore too.

The Gossip Girl showrunners might as well claim that Chuck never tried to rape Jenny and Serena but only Chuck/Chair fangirls/boys who have had their judgement clouded would believe that. And as much as I dislike Chuck and that show, even he eventually apologised to Jenny and characters did a better job acknowledging what he did (but still poor) than TVD characters did with Damon.

S.P.E.R.M member 270

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

Someone who is not able to make her own decisions because her mind is being controlled clearly cannot consent

There is no evidence Damon used compulsion on Caroline for sex. There is evidence he controlled her mind to invite him to the dance and put her nose where it doesn't belong. There is no disputing Damon compelled Caroline, but it is not shown he does so for sex. When he spoke of killing her, he'd just compelled her for the invite. Did they have sex after? The writers indicate that Damon doesn't compel for sex so that is a handy clue.

Isn't is odd in a vampire show neither main male character does this? Or do we assume it for all the vampire characters without evidence? This is not an issue of consenting once = consenting for infinity. The issue is compulsion for sex was not shown. Her lack of autonomy was sporadic. She defied Damon repeatedly and thus had autonomy at times. That was shown. What the writers say does matter, backed up by the fact there is no depiction of a female having sex while compelled.

[–] HP_HG_Fan 8 years ago

Compulsion is equivalent to a victim being intoxicated at the time of rape by a drug which doesn't wear off. Others have beat me to it and made excellent points about this. Even if he did not compel her specifically for sex, her head was a mess and they were in a sexual relationship. Damon has been hurting and abusing this girl, compelling her when she screamed and tried to run from him when he wanted to feed, yet if she decided that she didn't want to have sex and tried to walk away, he would have let her and that would have been consistent? Caroline was shown to be terrified of him after finding out who he is, yet after compulsion we see her casually talking about her murder and putting up with all of the horrible abuse he threw at her. And this is the girl who is supposedly having consensual sex with him?

If you knew that this is "not an issue of consenting once = consenting for infinity" then why did you bring up Caroline jumping into bed with him the first time, as though that is relevant? And her lack of autonomy being sporadic is exact proof that she wasn't all there.

S.P.E.R.M member 270

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Compulsion is equivalent to a victim being intoxicated at the time of rape by a drug which doesn't wear off.

There is nothing to state that Caroline was under any influence of compulsion when she slept with Damon, and the writer JP has confirmed that to be true.

Even if he did not compel her specifically for sex, her head was a mess and they were in a sexual relationship.

Well that may or may not be true and there are arguments for and against, and we are assuming that further sex took place. Do we know for sure that they had sex a second or third or fourth time etc.....? or are we just assuming? the entire arc spanned a couple of days or so in TVD time.

Damon has been hurting and abusing this girl, compelling her when she screamed and tried to run from him when he wanted to feed,

Are you talking about the time when she woke up and tried to run? If so, this did not happen. He fed on her but he didn't compel her. What is depicted here is that damon violently fed on Caroline against her will.....there was no sex involved here or compulsion. Let me just state for the record before someone else does...this was a horrific display of violence, but again is was not rape.

Caroline was shown to be terrified of him after finding out who he is, yet after compulsion we see her casually talking about her murder and putting up with all of the horrible abuse he threw at her. And this is the girl who is supposedly having consensual sex with him?

After compulsion? are you sure that happened or are you assuming? The truth is we don't know what happened between Caroline and Damon after he fed on her that morning because it wasn't shown. IN the face of no evidence to the contrary I have no option other than to believe what the writers tell me....Damon did not rape Caroline.

yet after compulsion we see her casually talking about her murder and putting up with all of the horrible abuse he threw at her. And this is the girl who is supposedly having consensual sex with him?

I guess it's a matter of perspective. I mean she made him read twilight and listen to Taylor Swift. Joking aside aside, I assume by the term abuse you mean feeding on her? It's made clear that Caroline knows he has been feeding from her and she is worried that the bites will turn her into a vampire. They have a very frank conversation about vampirism in which Damon is honest with her and divulges his secret to not burning or sparkling in the sun. He tells her this secure in knowledge that she can't divulge his secrets due to compulsion, but said compulsion is not definitive, because straight after he has to compel her to take him to the party against her will. It just goes to show that there are different forms of compulsion, those that last and those that don't.
We have been shown that the compelled person becomes de-compelled after the mission that they have been compelled to do is done.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

This this this this this. The fact that the writers denied this, makes me disgusted. I would have had a ton of respect for Julie and Co if they just had said: "Look, we didn't intend for this to be rape when we wrote and filmed it. But the end result lacks appropriate consent and depicts rape. It's not something that we meant to do, but this speaks to a larger blind spot when it comes to how rape is interpreted." Like, how awesome would it have been for a showrunner to acknowledge that it's not always really black and white, and despite the intentions of those involved, rape isn't about intent. It's about what actually happens. It could have opened up a dialogue with young fans of the show about what consent means. The fact that they didn't use this opportunity...well..I am not a fan of Dries or Plec, but they really *beep* up. I am not a fan of Ian, but the fact that he acknowledges that it was rape elevates him several steps in my eyes.

[–] HP_HG_Fan 8 years ago

They have the same poor judgement that many Damon fangirls/boys have resulting from their crush on Damon. I was also disgusted when I say JPs tweets in which she dodged questions from fans asking whether or not Damon would apologise to Caroline for the rape and abuse.

S.P.E.R.M member 270

[–] mymammakat 8 years ago

Thank you!! Damon did not rape Caroline! Damon compelled her to forget that he fed on her. When Caroline became a vampire and remembered everything he compelled her to forget she was angry about being used as a personal blood bag, not about being raped, because she WASNT! I'm amazed at all the unjustified hate for Damon and the complete disregard for the truth displayed by some on this thread. You can expound on your version of reality all you want but the fact is no such thing happened.

We're all on our way out, act accordingly.

[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

The fact that Plec says it wasn't rape, does not mean anything to me. She has proven herself to be biased and unreliable. She also has EVERY reason to lie. It makes her look bad that she has made a rapist the central hero for the show, so I can see her attempting to erase that as it doesn't suit her narrative.

I can buy that Julie didn't necessarily intend to showcase a rape, that it happened because she did not consider what was shown to be rape. She is notoriously short sighted and does not admit she makes mistakes. If she had come out and said "we didn't intend for this to be rape when we wrote it, but upon considering the implications about consent, we understand why it looks that way.", that would be fine. I could erase that it happened from canon. I actually didn't think it was rape upon first watch, but I was younger and didn't really get it. I can see how other people would think that too. But the fact that Julie won't acknowledge it, when presented with the facts of what rape is, makes her completely unreliable to me.

Others have already made great points about why what was depicted was rape, and the fact that you don't think it is makes me afraid for the people in your life. Consent can be revoked at anytime and Caroline gave consent before she knew Damon was a vampire. He then removed her ability to consent when he compelled her not to be afraid.

If you went home with someone you wanted to sleep with and then found out they were a murderer, would you still want to sleep with them?

[–] mymammakat 8 years ago

Damon did use and abuse Caroline, I'm not defending that but she willingly got into bed with him and had sex with him. Did she know he was a vampire, no, but that doesn't mean he raped her.
As far as consent after he compelled her, he didn't compel her to have sex with him! He compelled her to forget the feeding on her, to help Elena with dishes,take him to the founders party, feed Bonnie info to take to Elena and ask Stefan to dance. Oh, the horror of it all! That's what happened, you and others trying to turn that into rape is ridiculous.
You want Julie Plec to say she understands why it looks that way. I only speak for myself, I understand why you and others would think it looks that way, after all you are on a thread entitled Damon is horrible. A virtual invitation to Damon haters.
I disagree with you're interpretation of the events, that doesn't make you morally superior to me.You feining concern for the people in my life only amplifies what you have already projected, which is a need for attention and approval from those who are weak enough mentally to follow your skewed sense of reasoning relating to this show.
Almost everyone on the show has woken up with a murderer sooner or later, even when they wake up alone.
You're question about what I would do, well that would depend on who they killed and why they did it! After all, Vamps get hungry, it happens.😈

We're all on our way out, act accordingly.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Thankyou, another person I can relate to and agree with.

Damon did use and abuse Caroline, I'm not defending that but she willingly got into bed with him and had sex with him. Did she know he was a vampire, no, but that doesn't mean he raped her.

Exactly. What is depicted over the two/three episodes is that Caroline was involved in an abusive, one sided relationship. The abuse being emotional and physical...but not sexual.
It was horrendous, and portrayed as such.

I disagree with you're interpretation of the events, that doesn't make you morally superior to me.You feining concern for the people in my life only amplifies what you have already projected, which is a need for attention and approval from those who are weak enough mentally to follow your skewed sense of reasoning relating to this show.

A Harsh but true representation of several posters on this board.

Almost everyone on the show has woken up with a murderer sooner or later, even when they wake up alone

Perfect.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Others have already made great points about why what was depicted was rape, and the fact that you don't think it is makes me afraid for the people in your life.

At this point in time, I really have no other choice but to agree with this. I mean, I always understood 'intellectually' that there's a reason why a majority of rapes go unreported, un-investigated, unprocessed and un-convicted and that it boils down to a majority of people, male and female, in the society have these skewed concepts of consent and consensual sex. But I guess it's a shock to actually "see" the rationality, the stubbornly dangerous rationality of that belief system in play.

There is a reason why a judge felt brock turner should only get 3 months in prison for 20 seconds of "action" and we're looking at it.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

I always understood 'intellectually' that there's a reason why a majority of rapes go unreported, un-investigated, unprocessed and un-convicted and that it boils down to a majority of people, male and female, in the society have these skewed concepts of consent and consensual sex. But I guess it's a shock to actually "see" the rationality, the stubbornly dangerous rationality of that belief system in play.

These are the stats:

Out of 1000 rapes, 330 will be reported; 63 will lead to an arrest; 13 will be tried; 7 will be convicted; 6 will be incarcerated*

*This 'incarceration' also includes the likes of Brock Turner serving reduced sentences of 3months out of a maximum of 15 years sentencing.

The stats are shocking but when you realise that people are making excuses / denying that a fictional rape occurred --- is it really surprising that there is a less than 1% chance of true-life victims getting justice? The Damon defenders in this thread keep harping on and on about how real life and fiction are 2 different things and I'm just here smh because everyone knows that's bull. Real life is always influenced by fiction and mirrored in fiction. ALWAYS.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

I knew the statistics would be depressing that is why I have never tried to know the actual figures. I never imagined they would be as harrowing as this.

The Damon defenders in this thread keep harping on and on about how real life and fiction are 2 different things and I'm just here smh because everyone knows that's bull.

It is laughable, really, and I sincerely doubt any one truly believes that 'philosophy' but as it turns out, people are willing to stoop to any level to maintain a devotion to a male idol so of all the 'arguments' that have been raised during these discussions, that is one of the least offensive.

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

The Damon defenders in this thread keep harping on and on about how real life and fiction are 2 different things and I'm just here smh because everyone knows that's bull. Real life is always influenced by fiction and mirrored in fiction. ALWAYS.

Ummm real life and fiction are different anyone that doesn't understand this should seek help immediately. And yes sometimes art imitates life but the true draw of entertainment and what any good entertainment should be is a escape from reality Majority of people watch movies and shows to forget about their mundane lives for a few hours. You really think the people that pay so much of their heard earned money at the cinema do it to be preached to for a few hours? Lol seriously get real already. Entertainment is meant to be escapism not to reflect real life. And ppl can enjoy things in fiction that they wouldn't in real life as fiction is fiction.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Others have already made great points about why what was depicted was rape,

No they haven't, they have interpreted events that happened off screen and turned them into canon in their imagination and twisted logic to fit their own agenda.
There are lots of scenes that depict Damon compelling Caroline to do specific things for him, it is depicted that outside of those compulsions Caroline has the ability to think for herself and make her own decisions.

I can buy that Julie didn't necessarily intend to showcase a rape, that it happened because she did not consider what was shown to be rape

I think there are enough scenes in the show, put there deliberately to showcase the nature of how Damon's compulsion was working. There are exactly no scenes of Damon compelling Caroline to sleep with him, and the fact that Caroline was shown to go to bed with Damon willingly is not coincidental, it is on purpose, so I think JP and KW made a conscious effort to showcase that what Damon was doing was terrible, but it wasn't rape.
Those that choose to view it that way are responsible for that, not the writers.

He then removed her ability to consent when he compelled her not to be afraid.

And this is where the whole basis of your rationale falls down. This did not happen, this it what you assume happened because it fits your POV. The writers did not tell you this, you made it up. There are other just as plausible scenarios to explain what Damon did to Caroline in between feeding on her and her rocking up to school like the cat the got the cream. The difference is, my assumptions are supported by the text and subtext that the show provides.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

The whole concept of this thread is flawed. To say the show became unacceptable when the poster believes a character she or he felt to be a rapist was held up as a hero, disregards the glaring fact that the heroes in the show are first and foremost cold-blooded murderers. Always have been. Pretzel logic.

So, we've been shown unequivocally murder after murder at our leading men's hands. This began shortly after one brother turned the other into a vampire by offering up a compelled innocent and pushing them together like a good little matchmaker. Misery really does enjoy company. These murders are written clearly, shown in graphic technicolor, and put on rinse and repeat. Whichever brother a viewer holds close to their hearts is a killer. Not imagined after the credits roll, but depicted blatantly.

Why not chew on that or bounce that off the vast echoing walls of a brain that would object to a fabricated scenario, indeed one vehemently negated by the writers of the show, yet not flinch a cerebral inch regarding murder written gleefully and served up weekly.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

The whole concept of this thread is flawed. To say the show became unacceptable when the poster believes a character she or he felt to be a rapist was held up as a hero, disregards the glaring fact that the heroes in the show are first and foremost cold-blooded murderers. Always have been. Pretzel logic.

Excellent point, nicely put. It just shows the foundations for such logic are paper thin.

Why not chew on that or bounce that off the vast echoing walls of a brain that would object to a fabricated scenario, indeed one vehemently negated by the writers of the show, yet not flinch a cerebral inch regarding murder written gleefully and served up weekly.

It doesn't fit the nature of thread, because apparently Damon is the only bad man on this show unworthy of a slice of the redemption pie that is served up to Klaus, Stefan, Kai..to name but a few. Pinning Rape onto Damon was a new concept when the brothers (through the narrative) were shown to be equally monstrous.. somehow they had to make Damon worse in their minds to justify their love their own particular HERO. Like, somehow rape is more distasteful and un-hero like than say rippering through entire villages on a blood high.
The convoluted logic (pretzel, haha) and hypocrisy is staggering.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Like, somehow rape is more distasteful and un-hero like than say rippering through entire villages on a blood high.
The convoluted logic (pretzel, haha) and hypocrisy is staggering.

If rape is just another crime, or an even lesser one than mass murder (which, by the way, it is the USA - you'll get a far harsher sentence for 'boundary hopping' - sending your child to a school outside his zip code's district than you will get for rape) --- why put up such a spirited defence?

As always, your logical convolutions are baffling.

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

Well here's the thing you can hate on Plec all you want but she is the showrunner. So if she says something isn't canon its not. And she is hardly biased she has shown both brothers are no good or bad as the other. She has shown the flaws in all her characters.

So like the above poster stated Damon did take advantage of Caroline by using her as a personal blood bag but he didn't rape her. So anyone stating otherwise is just being pathetic Damon haters grasping for straws to try and justify their hatred.

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

And you also seem to have a misunderstanding on what rape truly is. Rape isn't a bad decision on your part. If you get drunk one night and choose to sleep with someone and wake up the next morning that's not rape its just a sh!tty decision on your part. People need to stop harming what rape truly is which is a very violent forced act onto someone. I have known people that were really raped and they are disgusted at what ppl try to say is rape. So stop pretending that your being some moral crusader when you have no clue.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Their rationales have been smashed to pieces with doses of common sense backed up with logic that is backed further by the show, hence the deafening silence. I think we can safely agree that Damon is not a rapist but I doubt it won't come up again.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

They will continue to try sadly but they will be beat by logic every time.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

A convict is gang-raped in a maximum security prison.

A celebrity loses his virginity at the ripe old age of 8.

The frisky co-ed decides to 'help herself' to her sleeping male roommate's morning wood

A former college student on a swimming scholarship sees a girl passed out drunk and thinks 'free pussy'

Only one of those cases is violent. All these cases are rape. The law recognises that rape can occur in a variety of 'non-violent' ways (statutory, marital rape, institutional rape) because rape =/= violent sex. It's sex without consent whether the consent was taken forcibly (violence, blackmail) or consent could never have been given in the first place (under-age, in-balance of power, someone who wasn't even conscious in the first place), etc.

So stop pretending that your being some moral crusader

The bar for moral crusading is set really low, then.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Your credibility and reasoning is shot to pieces when you continually move the goalposts when it concerns your favorite character. I have steadfastly championed that rape does not exist within the context of this show and have given very valid reasons why I think that and why the show does not depict that. You on the other hand have given very little in the way of evidence only assumptions that are not based in canon. The framework of your reasoning lies in the value of consent. There is nothing in the show that depicts that Caroline is not able to consent to sex with Damon, in fact it depicts the opposite and I and others have given you the evidence to support that reasoning.
The above post is indicative of an agenda that does not in any way relate to the conversation but serves to belie a reliance on real events that in no way correlates to anything that is depicted on the show we are discussing.
Unless you are willing to discuss the issues within the context of the show, using the scenes and obvious subtext to construct valid points I see futility in continuing since I'm not willing to humor your baseless conjecture any longer.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

And your entire logic falls from the first sentence - because I do not have a favourite character. That is the sad affliction that the likes of you and awesomeBamonfan suffer. Your devotion to a specific male character, and no doubt a specific romantic outcome with you as the female self-insert, has erased every trace of objectivity from your mindset. You also seem to think that because your point-of-entry into this show is through a specific male character, then everyone else does the same. So by your reasoning, since I am not a Damon fan, I must be a Stefan fan. By awesomeBamonfan, I must be a Kai fan. And by whatever sad soul that ships Daroline - I was in turns a Tyler, Klaus and Stefan fan.

Even though I have already admitted based entirely on evidence that you gave without an coronation, that he's as likely as much a rapist as Damon - something that you will never do, regardless of what logic or reasoning or arguments have been presented to you. All throughout this discussion and indeed, your featuring on these boards, you have brought up arguments and analogies which have been decimated, to which you respond by diversionary tactics, the lowest of which was claiming your alleged trauma to score a cheap point. Apparently, an internet discussion about a fictional rapist is worth riffling through past trauma. Typical survivor behaviour, I'm sure.

The problem isn't that no one is "willing to discuss these issues within the context of the show, using the scenes and obvious subtext to construct valid points". This entire thread is filled with to the brim with this, tendered to you with a great deal more courtesy that I have long been depleted of. The problem is that you have refused to accept any argument or conclusion that is counterpoint to your own. While I have shown that I am more than willing to accept conclusions that I had never considered when provided with reasonable arguments, you have constantly shown that you will backtrack, derail, or plain out deny your own arguments once they are refuted. From your own 'alcohol-as-compulsion' argument being shattered to pieces by origin, to your 'defence of Damon as a rapist' to even now, skirting over the point I made (your declaration that 'rippers are worse than rapists' makes no sense in the context of your arguments) to which, as always, you respond by obfuscating and diverting.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Why are you bringing my name into this particular discussion? Because it with another poster and not a debate that you and I are having directly. It can go both ways and I ask you not to include me in a discussion that doesn't directly involve me.

lol keep getting my name mentioned directly, because some just don't like other characters flaws being brought up and mentioned and only want other characters flaws and problematic behavior to be ignored in their Anti-Damon posts.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

I was making a point that much like bluesexy, your default assumption is that anyone who isn't "for Damon" must be "for whoever his romantic rival is". In your case, you're a Bamon fan so you assumed that I was a Kai fan. Bluesexy assumed I was a Stefan fan because she's a Stelena fan. This is not conjecture. These are things that actually happened on these boards.

You both seem to struggle to understand/appreciate that people might just objectively have a problem with Damon - based on his portrayal on the show - without having some kind of shipping agenda. And so far, I'm sorry to say, I am yet to meet a Damon fan who has disproved this.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Don't think that everyone has a shipping agenda. Even tho some might when trying to uplift their fave over Damon. I do think that some have an individual agenda. Whether that be Anti=Damon and pro their fave.

Because again and again, I say that it's not just the writing itself that has been brought up as an issue in this thread, but how some Damon fans whitewash his actions. So, I think that it's valid to mention how fans of other characters whitewash their faves actions also and will also go out of their way to defend their fave. As I mentioned recently in a Kai fan on youtube going out of their way to defend Kai and making excuses for Kai, while blaming Bonnie and holding it to Bonnie to understand Kai's feelings and where Kai is coming from.

That's pretty much to be like the ones who go out of their way to defend Damon and to use Caroline do show how she "consented" to them and use Caroline's actions against her to say that Damon didn't rape her.

If the behavior of some Damon fans were left out and it was only focused on the writing, then maybe the ones who don't agree with me of bringing in Kai would have more of a point. But, I'll always think that I have a valid reason when part of the discussion is the behavior of characters fans, in that case all characters fans who do the same are fair game in the discussion.

And as far as the writing goes, I have made my case on why Damon isn't the only one who's actions get glossed over and whitewashed in the writing. There's also cases of Stefan's wrong doings being whitewashed to the point where he is also built as a hero and not only built as a hero, but as the good brother despite all of the immoral things that he has done, the people that he has abused and killed. And is built up as someone who is way more of a better person and brother over Damon, by the writers and fandom. Stefan even did something with Jeremy that I don't think that Damon would get as pass for with the fandom. Just the writers making it so that Stefan is way more moral over Damon and his fans don't mind embracing that part of the writing to their advantage, even while having a problem with the writers whitewashing Damon in other areas.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Don't think that everyone has a shipping agenda.

In my experience on these boards, all the Damon fans have a shipping agenda. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Even tho some might when trying to uplift their fave over Damon. I do think that some have an individual agenda. Whether that be Anti=Damon and pro their fave.

Or maybe, just maybe, people are concerned that the portrayal of rape on this show is not only offensive but insidious and want to discuss it? And that the fact that there are people - I know you are not one of them so hold your peace - denying that the rape happened at all has only made people like me more concerned and more invested in this discussion?

Or in other words:

Not. Every. Thing. Has. To. Do. With. Shipping.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Some Damon fans do have an shipping agenda in defending Damon. Then again so do fans of every other character who defends their fave. Some of the Anti-Damon agenda against Damon fans does comes down to shipping. As you see shippers or ships mentioned from some of the Anti-Damon fans often on here. One of the biggest Anti-Damon fans made a whole thread talking about what Bamon fans said to JP on twitter.

I do believe that if some only focus on Anti-Damon or Damon hate, while ignoring and not caring about how the show is problematic with other characters in other ways or is problematic in ways besides with just Damon. That their agenda is just mostly Anti-Damon and focusing on Damon hate.

If they always try to shut down and exclude others besides Damon from being brought into the discussion and act like the writing for Damon is the only problem in writing on the show.

Or if they are only intent on calling out Damon fans and bashing Damon fans as if Damon fans are the only problematic ones in the fandom and try to avoid discussions on other characters/fans being brought into it, especially when it's their fave character or a character that they stan and they want to focus on Damon's wrongdoings, without their fave characters wrongdoings being brought up.

Which is why I have been mentioned directly by a Kai fan who is Anti-Damon and don't like when I bring up Kai. The ones who only want to discuss Damon's wrongdoings and Damon fans are the ones who I believe have the Anti-Damon agenda.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

And your entire logic falls from the first sentence - because I do not have a favourite character.

Easy to say, but some of your postings are very defensive and Stefan centric in POV.

Even though I have already admitted based entirely on evidence that you gave without an coronation, that he's as likely as much a rapist as Damon - something that you will never do,

You qualified that admittance with the ridiculous notion that is was a fleeting moment so therefore not memorable or important. I think you said "blink and you'll miss it" You don't think that moment was intended to inform Stefan's character in that way...yet by your reasonings and house of cards logic it depicts Stefan as not treating women excellently at all, sexually or otherwise. Like I said, Stefan centric POV.

All throughout this discussion and indeed, your featuring on these boards, you have brought up arguments and analogies which have been decimated, to which you respond by diversionary tactics, the lowest of which was claiming your alleged trauma to score a cheap point

I haven't discussed or brought into the debate anything at all from my personal life, I have actively attempted to divert you from going down that route on more than one occasion to avoid statements like yours above. You are the one who has broadcast your trauma in order score cheaps points in this debate in order to add some kind of authority to your posts. You speak as if your POV is the only correct one because you have some personal experience and anyone who disagrees with you must have led...how did you put it...oh yes:

it shows you've been a very fortunate woman in your life and I'll leave it at that.

to which I rsponded with this

Well you would be wrong about that.......but this has nothing to do with my personal life so I would prefer not to discuss it since it isn't up for public consumption. Please respect that

From that statement alone you have since run around this board making assumptions and putting words into my mouth.

What you are failing to grasp is there are people out there that have experienced very painful lives that do not agree with you, and to that end you treat those people with disdain, disbelief and scorn. It isn't a nice trait considering that you asked for sensitivity and tact, especially since you aren't willing to give it or pay mind to those who might be triggered by your shameful abuse of the word rape to justify a hatred of a fictional character.

The problem isn't that no one is "willing to discuss these issues within the context of the show, using the scenes and obvious subtext to construct valid points". This entire thread is filled with to the brim with this

There are a few, including myself that are happy to discuss issues that pertain to the show and do use what is part of the narrative to explain. The majority of posts are just filled with conjecture based off assumptions, twisting what is actually shown on screen into something unrecognisable to what is the intended story. You and others are responsible for that, not the writers and constantly attempting to project your opinion that has been rejected by the people that wrote the story is indicative of a mind set that is determined to see what they want to see despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I am willing to accept conclusions if someone is able to provide a reasonable argument that is based on what is known to be true and not based on conjecture. So far, no one has managed to do that on this particular issue.

you have constantly shown that you will backtrack, derail, or plain out deny your own arguments once they are refuted. From your own 'alcohol-as-compulsion' argument

I recognised that using the analogy alcohol= compulsion did not really work since they are completey different and work in different ways. I also recognised that at that point I had followed Orgine down the rabbit hole of debating real life cases of rape involving alcohol and sex and attempting to parallel them with what was happening on the show (As was Orgine)...Then I woke up and realised that they weren't comparable at all and withdrew from that particular discussion when she began to call me a rape apologist ad nauseum, she has been on my ignore list pretty much since then.

your declaration that 'rippers are worse than rapists' makes no sense in the context of your arguments) to which, as always, you respond by obfuscating and diverting

It's not diverting, it's pointing out the holes in your logic and reasoning.
Your whole reasonings are based on the fact that you dislike Damon since he was canonised as a rapist, then held up as a hero (In your opinion that is), yet this show is full of heroes that are actually canonised as full blown murderers but you are ok with that? It's very confusing logic, if not hypocritical.
I am personally ok with it because it is a genre show, I expect the protagonists to kill people since they are vampires. In vampire lore, vampires compel people for their blood and to do their bidding, so i'm not surprised to see those things depicted on screen and for those characters to be still be seen as the people to root for.
Here is example of your subjectivity is regards to how you sympathise with "victims" of abuse and you are quick to draw lines in the sand about what can be directly linked to serve as motivation, therefore understand how each of the characters backgrounds of abuse are directly linked to what is going on in the story.

Klaus was abused for his illegitimacy, and then hunted by Mikael. So he needed to make himself invincible (become a hybrid, surround himself with an army) and control his siblings since he could never completely trust them. That directly ties with his motivations. His quest for more power ties to this.

Agreed.

Kai was abused because he didn't have magical powers. So he needed to merge with his sister to gain some. His ambition ties to this. His sociopathy gave his evil another dimension - being literally without a conscience.

Agreed

Katherine was hunted by Klaus, and he massacred her family for her defiance. So she turned into a selfish survivalist, willing to sacrifice any and all for her desire to survive.

Agreed.

Damon was abused by his father so...... he raped Caroline and Andi...? If he was sexually abused by his father, I can see how that would direct his future sexual predatorial behaviour and I recant everything I've said already if this was the case and I somehow missed it. Was he sexually abused by a woman? In fact, you can make a better case of Stefan turning into the vampire rapist because he was actually raped by Katherine - but Damon went into the relationship with her fully cognisant of who and what she was. She never compelled him into sex like she did Stefan.

Pertaining to the bolded part....I can see how there isn't a connection because Damon was not sexually abused by his Father according to canon and he didn't rape the women on the show..also canon. So of course your analogy here or links to the past don't correlate. What does correlate directly is how Damon was treated by Katherine. The parallels are quite strong actually with the story with Caroline.
Katherine seduced him with her wiles and charm and got him so far under her spell (not in a supernatural way) that he was willing to do anything for her including kill, and die/turn for her. She also did use compulsion on him at times...although this was not about sex so she did not rape him. She was able to do this because Damon was incredibly needy, vulnerable and highly susceptible to this type of manipulation as a human....because he was a victim of abuse and had no self esteem or sense of worth and he was never the chosen one. Just like Caroline, who was busy lamenting within earshot of Damon that she is never the one chosen, that she tries so hard, that she see's life as a competition that Elena is winning without even trying.
Well Damon did choose Caroline, and he obviously revealed his secret to her in a very violent way....but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Damon was able to talk Caroline down and convince her be his "girl" and accept his vampire status. We know it's plausible because it happened to Damon with Katherine, and we know that Elena also accepted Stefan despite having a terrified reaction to Stefan initially.

Damon pretty much outright states it to Stefan in this conversation 1x04:

They are talking about Elena, but the subtext is Caroline IMO

Damon "I decided to stay a while, I'm having way too much fun with you and Elena"
Stefan "Well you can't touch her now"
Damon"Well the vervain keeps me out of her head [Elena], but maybe that's not my target. Believe it or not Stefan, some girls don't need mind persuasion. Some girls just can't resist my good looks, my charm and my unflinching ability to listen to Taylor Swift".

Now who do you suppose he was most likely humoring by listening to Taylor Swift if not Caroline? We actually do see him humoring her love of Twilight later on don't we?

For me it is totally plausible that Damon did not have to use mind compulsion to seduce Caroline into a relationship with him and certainly not to sleep with him...this was explicitly shown. If that was what he wanted from Caroline he would have just compelled her right from the start. What he actually wanted from Caroline was a believable alibi to gain entry to the founders party (and her blood)... and for that to happen Caroline's reactions had to be her own in order to avoid suspicion. It worked, Caroline was still a raging bitch to her friends and to outsiders their relationship was accepted. Compulsion was directly used on Caroline to expediate her obedience when her natural agency was allowing Caroline to defy Damon. Doing the dishes is one example of this and others have cited many more.
There was no long lasting compulsion influencing her, she was not compelled to obey his every whim, nor was her fear compelled away......as we were clearly shown Caroline was shown to be terrified of Damon at times, if she were compelled to be not afraid of him the compulsion would not allow her feel or show fear. He was also able to dissipate her fears using charm, fake words and kisses. He was a manipulator in the same way Katherine was with him. He exploited her weaknesses for his own gain and sometimes he behaved cruelly to her...He was horrible and abusive but he did not rape her. The End.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

And your entire logic falls from the first sentence - because I do not have a favourite character.

Easy to say, but some of your postings are very defensive and Stefan centric in POV.

Even though I have already admitted based entirely on evidence that you gave without an coronation, that he's as likely as much a rapist as Damon - something that you will never do,

All throughout this discussion and indeed, your featuring on these boards, you have brought up arguments and analogies which have been decimated, to which you respond by diversionary tactics, the lowest of which was claiming your alleged trauma to score a cheap point

it shows you've been a very fortunate woman in your life and I'll leave it at that.

to which I rsponded with this

Well you would be wrong about that.......but this has nothing to do with my personal life so I would prefer not to discuss it since it isn't up for public consumption. Please respect that

The problem isn't that no one is "willing to discuss these issues within the context of the show, using the scenes and obvious subtext to construct valid points". This entire thread is filled with to the brim with this

you have constantly shown that you will backtrack, derail, or plain out deny your own arguments once they are refuted. From your own 'alcohol-as-compulsion' argument

your declaration that 'rippers are worse than rapists' makes no sense in the context of your arguments) to which, as always, you respond by obfuscating and diverting

Klaus was abused for his illegitimacy, and then hunted by Mikael. So he needed to make himself invincible (become a hybrid, surround himself with an army) and control his siblings since he could never completely trust them. That directly ties with his motivations. His quest for more power ties to this.

Agreed.

Kai was abused because he didn't have magical powers. So he needed to merge with his sister to gain some. His ambition ties to this. His sociopathy gave his evil another dimension - being literally without a conscience.

Agreed

Katherine was hunted by Klaus, and he massacred her family for her defiance. So she turned into a selfish survivalist, willing to sacrifice any and all for her desire to survive.

Agreed.

Damon was abused by his father so...... he raped Caroline and Andi...? If he was sexually abused by his father, I can see how that would direct his future sexual predatorial behaviour and I recant everything I've said already if this was the case and I somehow missed it. Was he sexually abused by a woman? In fact, you can make a better case of Stefan turning into the vampire rapist because he was actually raped by Katherine - but Damon went into the relationship with her fully cognisant of who and what she was. She never compelled him into sex like she did Stefan.

Pertaining to the bolded part....I can see how there isn't a connection because Damon was not sexually abused by his Father according to canon and he didn't rape the women on the show..also canon. So of course your analogy here or links to the past don't correlate. What does correlate directly is how Damon was treated by Katherine. The parallels are quite strong actually with the story with Caroline.
Katherine seduced him with her wiles and charm and got him so far under her spell (not in a supernatural way) that he was willing to do anything for her including kill, and die/turn for her. She also did use compulsion on him at times...although this was not about sex so she did not rape him. She was able to do this because Damon was incredibly needy, vulnerable and highly susceptible to this type of manipulation as a human....because he was a victim of abuse and had no self esteem or sense of worth and he was never the chosen one. Just like Caroline, who was busy lamenting within earshot of Damon that she is never the one chosen, that she tries so hard, that she see's life as a competition that Elena is winning without even trying.
Well Damon did choose Caroline, and that for someone like Caroline could prove to be very powerful motivation enough for someone like her to feel like she has scored some points against Elena, especially since Damon is also very hot. He obviously revealed his secret to her in a very violent way....but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Damon was able to talk Caroline down and convince her be his "girl" and accept his vampire status. We know it's plausible because it happened to Damon with Katherine, and we know that Elena also accepted Stefan despite having a terrified reaction to Stefan initially. The truth is we don't know exactly what happened because it wasn't shown, and all we have is conjecture...but at least mine in based upon reason and likelyhood given what has been shown, and talked about for example:

Damon pretty much outright states it to Stefan in this conversation 1x04:

They are talking about Elena, but the subtext is Caroline IMO

Damon "I decided to stay a while, I'm having way too much fun with you and Elena"
Stefan "Well you can't touch her now"
Damon"Well the vervain keeps me out of her head [Elena], but maybe that's not my target. Believe it or not Stefan, some girls don't need mind persuasion. Some girls just can't resist my good looks, my charm and my unflinching ability to listen to Taylor Swift".

Now who do you suppose he was most likely humoring by listening to Taylor Swift if not Caroline? We actually do see him humoring her love of Twilight later on don't we?
It's not rocket science, it's a fairly simple show.

For me it is totally plausible that Damon did not have to use mind compulsion to seduce Caroline into a relationship with him and certainly not to sleep with him...this was explicitly shown. If that was what he wanted from Caroline he would have just compelled her right from the start. What he actually wanted from Caroline was a believable alibi to gain entry to the founders party (and her blood)... and for that to happen Caroline's reactions had to be her own in order to avoid suspicion. It worked, Caroline was still a raging bitch to her friends and to outsiders their relationship was accepted. Compulsion was directly used on Caroline to expediate her obedience when her natural agency was allowing Caroline to defy Damon. Doing the dishes is one example of this and others have cited many more.
There was no long lasting compulsion influencing her, she was not compelled to obey his every whim, nor was her fear compelled away......as we were clearly shown Caroline was shown to be terrified of Damon at times, if she were compelled to be not afraid of him the compulsion would not allow her feel or show fear. He was also able to dissipate her fears using charm, fake words and kisses. He was a manipulator in the same way Katherine was with him. He exploited her weaknesses for his own gain and sometimes he behaved cruelly to her...He was horrible and abusive but he did not rape her. The End.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

I think the gist of your post is this:

Easy to say, but some of your postings are very defensive and Stefan centric in POV.

And the aweBamon person thinks my posts are Kai-centric. If you're going to scrutinise my every post with shipper goggles, then you will see whatever it is you want to see. That's on you, not me.

You are the one who has broadcast your trauma in order score cheap points in this debate in order to add some kind of authority to your posts.

When have I ever said I've had trauma?
When have I ever said I haven't?

I recognised that using the analogy alcohol= compulsion did not really work since they are completey different and work in different ways. I also recognised that at that point I had followed Orgine down the rabbit hole of debating real life cases of rape involving alcohol and sex and attempting to parallel them with what was happening on the show (As was Orgine)...

Tomato. Tomato. You call it 'followed down a rabbit hole'. I call it 'being backed into a corner logically & wisely avoiding any further rematches'.

your shameful abuse of the word rape to justify a hatred of a fictional character.

Switch that around - and not only will it be closer to the truth - it would actually make more sense. People don't hate fictional characters unless they do hateful things. I didn't start this show with an "agenda" to hate Damon any more than I'm sure that anyone picked up their first Harry Potter book with an "agenda" to hate Draco Malfoy. I hate the guy because the show had him rape several people, never addressed it and want the audience to think he's a hero. I find your defence of these - the character and the writing decisions - to be offensive on so many levels.

Your whole reasonings are based on the fact that you dislike Damon since he was canonised as a rapist, then held up as a hero (In your opinion that is), yet this show is full of heroes that are actually canonised as full blown murderers but you are ok with that? It's very confusing logic, if not hypocritical.

Because Damon was never canonised as a rapist in the show.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

When have I ever said I've had trauma?
When have I ever said I haven't?

You said this

I have no intention of disrespecting your personal life and I'm sorry for whatever

circumstances you have gone through that led you to say that. In turn however, I wonder if you can extend that same curtesy to others? Or at least consider how your repeated insistent defence of a rapist might be triggering to others who have actually lived through real-life defence of their own rapists? As you have chosen to remain private about your circumstances, so might many others on this very thread. Have you thought of that? It was something I pointed out to your at length when I first explained to you how pointless it is to argue against this

The bolded part is in relation to a conversation we had months ago when you disclosed that this issue was close to your heart in a personal way, and that my comments were triggering a reaction from you that you found offensive. It's insulting my intelligence to now backtrack and infer that you was not talking about yourself. Unless you are telling me that you do in fact hold intimate knowledge of other people's personal lives on this board and are speaking on their behalf.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

You lack reading comprehension, don't you? There's nothing in anything I've said now or then about trauma being personal to me (or not) or myself being triggered (or not). All throughout the paragraph you quote, I refer to a vague "other". I might have been speaking about myself. Or I might not have been. I'm not desperate enough to score cheap points on the internet to go into the details of my psyche. And yes, I will seriously side-eye anyone who feels so strongly about a non-existent alleged rapist that they feel the need to do so.

No, I don't need to insult your intelligence. You do that all by yourself.

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

Ursula, do you really believe there is a need to enumerate the elementary menu of what is considered rape? All you have listed fits the bill completely and there are many more "non-violent" qualifiers. Would you not agree all rape is violent?

The dividing line is not a lack of education or awareness on the issue of rape and how it manifests in a myriad of forms, the disagreement is surrounding the fact there was never a time compulsion was shown for sex. We were shown Caroline's general agency was hugely intermittent, there at times and gone at others.

In reading this thread, it is difficult to reconcile your treatment of another poster (who you seem to have assumed has personal experience in this area and accuse of using this in some manner to deflect discussion in spite of the fact she has discussed this topic at some length with you), and your vehement stance on this subject resplendent with graphic examples and a tap, tap, tap on the chalkboard. In the name of victims. In the name of women. Concepts are easy until we are required to put them into practice.

By all means, champion a fictional character for ills that you believe have befallen her, invented or otherwise, then disparage a human being and belittle her experience for the sake of your argument.

All throughout this discussion and indeed, your featuring on these boards, you have brought up arguments and analogies which have been decimated, to which you respond by diversionary tactics, the lowest of which was claiming your alleged trauma to score a cheap point. Apparently, an internet discussion about a fictional rapist is worth riffling through past trauma. Typical survivor behaviour, I'm sure.

Negate the intelligence. Negate the give and take. Reduce and mold for your purposes something you know absolutely nothing about. If indeed this person has experience regarding this topic, you have not been a sister in arms - you've been the opposite.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

.... then disparage a human being and belittle her experience for the sake of your argument. Reduce and mold for your purposes something you know absolutely nothing about. If indeed this person has experience regarding this topic, you have not been a sister in arms - you've been the opposite.

Oh, please. 😒😒😒😒😒😒😒😒😒😒 You do know that there is absolutely nothing in that statement that you can ever know is true? From this person's alleged experience that was brought up after many months of triggering people on these boards with her defence of a fictional rapist to empathise with said rapist... to my own lack of personal knowledge about rape .. to even the fact that this person or I have genitalia that make it appropriate for us to be referred to by pronouns like "her" or as a "sister"? Give me a break.

We were shown Caroline's general agency was hugely intermittent, there at times and gone at others.

I don't understand how you can make a claim that Caroline had intermittent agency and not be able to see that someone who has "intermittent" agency cannot give complete consent. I am literally baffled at how you and some other posters repeatedly make declarations like this, and yet in the next figurative breath, draw the complete opposite conclusion.

do you really believe there is a need to enumerate the elementary menu of what is considered rape? All you have listed fits the bill completely and there are many more "non-violent" qualifiers. Would you not agree all rape is violent?

No, no, no. Not all rape is violent. Rape does not have to be violent. Clearly, for this alone, there is a need to enumerate the "elementary menu of what is considered rape". And it's not a "menu" - it's just the one thing - un-consensual sex. As long as people keep imagining that rape involves and only ever involves some hooded (undoubtedly ugly) man breaking into a woman's home and "violently" sticking his dick into her, then there will always be a need to enumerate what is considered rape.

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

You do know that there is absolutely nothing in that statement that you can ever know is true? From this person's alleged experience that was brought up after many months of triggering people on these boards with her defence of a fictional rapist to empathise with said rapist... to my own lack of personal knowledge about rape .. to even the fact that this person or I have genitalia that make it appropriate for us to be referred to by pronouns like "her" or as a "sister"? Give me a break.

Hope you don't mind if I left out all of your little emoticons. The above is incredibly convoluted and nonsensical, but let me reiterate that this person is not defending or empathizing with a rapist, as it is his or her contention, along with the writers, that rape did not occur. The treatment regarding his or her personal life stands on its own with a harsh sneer. You are very correct we can never know what others have experienced or witnessed in their lives. So, on this delicate issue so close to your 'heart?', that kind of vitriol detracts from any purported sensitivity to the issue.

I don't understand how you can make a claim that Caroline had intermittent agency and not be able to see that someone who has "intermittent" agency cannot give complete consent. I am literally baffled at how you and some other posters repeatedly make declarations like this, and yet in the next figurative breath, draw the complete opposite conclusion.

If you define any form of compulsion during any point in a relationship by a vampire as taking away agency from that time forward, regardless if the compulsion ends, I believe I at least understand the bog from which you begin your views. In other words, if Damon or Stefan at any point in any relationship compels someone (or leaves out important information such as the fact they are vampires, but consummate the dirty deed anyway) but do not compel an individual to have sex with them, it is rape simply by previous mind-control and/or omission of pertinent information.

No, no, no. Not all rape is violent. Rape does not have to be violent. Clearly, for this alone, there is a need to enumerate the "elementary menu of what is considered rape". And it's not a "menu" - it's just the one thing - un-consensual sex. As long as people keep imagining that rape involves and only ever involves some hooded (undoubtedly ugly) man breaking into a woman's home and "violently" sticking his dick into her, then there will always be a need to enumerate what is considered rape.

Very eloquent. All rape is violent, whether it be with an unconscious person or inebriated person, etc., whether it be done gently or through coercion of a child. It is violent to invade a person sexually without their consent, period. No hoods or break-ins necessary, simply non-consent.

Within these parameters, let's assume compulsion is similar to alcohol. (Apparently, this is an ongoing comparison on these boards.) It can be considered rape to have sex with a person too wasted to give consent. However, once the alcohol is out of his or her system, consent can wholly be given. That is where Caroline had intermittent agency. She toggled between compulsion being out of her system and being compelled. There was never an instance where it was shown Caroline was compelled to have sex. Again, if you consider any compulsion a precursor to rape, then all vampires are rapists and that is the lens through which you will see the whole series.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

The above is incredibly convoluted and nonsensical, but let me reiterate that this person is not defending or empathising with a rapist, as it is his or her contention, along with the writers, that rape did not occur.

Let me simplify it for you then: This poster's persistent Whoopi-Goldberge-esque 'it is not rape if it's not rape-rape' argument - is defending or empathising with a rapist. As a general rule, I reserve sympathies for rape survivors and vitriol for rape apologists. Spare me the pearl-clutching.

If you define any form of compulsion during any point in a relationship by a vampire as taking away agency from that time forward, regardless if the compulsion ends, I believe I at least understand the bog from which you begin your views.

A girl running away screaming for her life - and being mind-controlled to not run away screaming for her life - is taking away her agency. I really don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand.

However, once the alcohol is out of his or her system, consent can wholly be given. That is where Caroline had intermittent agency. She toggled between compulsion being out of her system and being compelled. There was never an instance where it was shown Caroline was compelled to have sex. Again, if you consider any compulsion a precursor to rape, then all vampires are rapists and that is the lens through which you will see the whole series.

For someone who adheres to the Writers Are God trope, you certainly pick and choose what to accept/reject, don't you?

It has been established consistently in this show (surprisingly one of the few aspects of their own mythology that they've never retconned) that Compulsion. does. not. wear. off. It's not a drug that "gets out of one's system" while the person's still alive, not without the intervention of very powerful magic by an extraordinarily skilled witch. It cannot even be 'overriden' by another vampire. Stefan was only compelled once by Katherine. Caroline needed to die to remember how Damon treated her. Elena needed to die to remember what Damon told her and made her forget, etc. Katherine Pierce, the ultimate survivalist, is stuck in the cave because of Elijah.

FYI: Here's the dictionary definition of violence: using or involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something. Educate yourself. Rape doesn't need to be "qualified" as violent to be depicted as reprehensible. And all this additional "definers" only serves to restrict what rape is and isn't

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

For someone who adheres to the Writers Are God trope, you certainly pick and choose what to accept/reject, don't you?

Given the choice between their clearly-stated interpretation of events and your deeply imagined ones? Sure, I'll go with the writers on this one.

It has been established consistently in this show (surprisingly one of the few aspects of their own mythology that they've never retconned) that Compulsion. does. not. wear. off. It's not a drug that "gets out of one's system" while the person's still alive, not without the intervention of very powerful magic by an extraordinarily skilled witch. It cannot even be 'overriden' by another vampire. Stefan was only compelled once by Katherine. Caroline needed to die to remember how Damon treated her. Elena needed to die to remember what Damon told her and made her forget, etc. Katherine Pierce, the ultimate survivalist, is stuck in the cave because of Elijah.

Elena did not 'remember' what was said to her while under compulsion. That certainly didn't mean she was still compelled. What? Really? Why then the need to re-compel? It's a huge assumption that Caroline was under compulsion 24/7 when she was shown to disobey Damon consistently and he had to "re-compel" her.

FYI: Here's the dictionary definition of violence: using or involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something. Educate yourself. Rape doesn't need to be "qualified" as violent to be depicted as reprehensible. And all this additional "definers" only serves to restrict what rape is and isn't

No one is suggesting it must be "qualified" as violent to be reprehensible. You are a smart girl or boy, right? You know that. Or perhaps not, as you would have seen stating all rape is violent supports your case that it is a multifaceted definition, and that rape is not sex, but rather violence. Hello in there.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Given the choice between their clearly-stated interpretation of events and your deeply imagined ones? Sure, I'll go with the writers on this one.

Clearly stated? Someone needs to send the guy that's been playing the role for the past 8 years a memo. Apparently, you can interact on a regular basis with these people for 8 years, on / off camera and still be confused as to what the heck they were trying to portray. Seems to me that that's the opposite of "deeply imagined". Or is this another case of you using words that you don't know the meanings of?

Elena did not 'remember' what was said to her while under compulsion. That certainly didn't mean she was still compelled. What? Really? Why then the need to re-compel? It's a huge assumption that Caroline was under compulsion 24/7 when she was shown to disobey Damon consistently and he had to "re-compel" her.

I literally don't understand anything you wrote here. Are you arguing now that Elena remembered that she was compelled? Or that she was no longer "still compelled" but somehow had no memory of multiple encounters with Damon?

No, Caroline was never re-compelled to do anything Damon asked her to do. He only ever needed to tell her once.

No one is suggesting it must be "qualified" as violent to be reprehensible. You are a smart girl or boy, right? You know that. Or perhaps not, as you would have seen stating all rape is violent supports your case that it is a multifaceted definition, and that rape is not sex, but rather violence. Hello in there.

No, it doesn't. Qualifying something by a specific description is the opposite of opening it up to a multifaceted interpretation. You're literally trying to box the definition of rape into violent rape. Rape is rape. It doesn't need to be described as any other knid of crime to make it more or less what it is. I guess you're the IMDB version of Whoopi and her rape-rape gaffe. And yeah, I'm a smart enough person not to fall for that fallacious logical crap.

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

Qualifying something by a specific description is the opposite of opening it up to a multifaceted interpretation. You're literally trying to box the definition of rape into violent rape. Rape is rape. It doesn't need to be described as any other knid of crime to make it more or less what it is. I guess you're the IMDB version of Whoopi and her rape-rape gaffe. And yeah, I'm a smart enough person not to fall for that fallacious logical crap.

Sadly, apparently you are not. I am actually solidifying your definition and broadening it. You are welcome, BTW. Rape is rape. I don't agree with Whoopi. And rape is violence not sex. That is a solid misinterpretation that washes down the concept of rape. You are welcome, again. Doesn't have to be the kind that knocks you over the head with a club.

You are even cantankerous when someone agrees with you. No wonder.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

Given the choice between their clearly-stated interpretation of events and your deeply imagined ones? Sure, I'll go with the writers on this one.

Make sure you tell Ian that because he's also deeply imagining stuff.

Nice side-stepping of your own alcohol-as-consumption metaphor, by the way. As diversionary tactics go, you D-defenders take the cake.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Oh I noticed the side-stepping, too. But what else is new?

As for the clearly-stated, I'm asking an obvious question here but as Plec gone on record to say that Damon did not rape Caroline? I'm not talking about the show itself and it's handling of the matter. We're never told in the story that he raped her; but we're not told he didn't either. Just that Caroline needs to 'get over' whatever it was that happened 'between' them. But outside the story - Doylian perspective, I mean - has Plec actually stated that it was not rape?

[–] orgine 8 years ago

That's a good question and I honestly don't know? Like if she had, won't someone have said so by now? You'd think it'd be the first thing they threw out. And for Ian to have said so AFTER she's gone on record to say the opposite, that's basically him flat-out calling her a liar or an idiot, isn' tit? I tihnk they generally pretend it never happened. Caroline hates Damon for obscure reasons that happened when they "dated" but details are never mentioned and we're supposed to feel that she's grudgingly moved past that. Heck, Damon even brings up sleeping with her in s6 as a joke.

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

As for the clearly-stated, I'm asking an obvious question here but as Plec gone on record to say that Damon did not rape Caroline? I'm not talking about the show itself and it's handling of the matter. We're never told in the story that he raped her; but we're not told he didn't either. Just that Caroline needs to 'get over' whatever it was that happened 'between' them. But outside the story - Doylian perspective, I mean - has Plec actually stated that it was not rape?

@julieplec @SEisForever I feel Damon did not just compell her for blood - but also to have sex with him when she was scared of him...

julieplec Verified account ‏@julieplec @Lab_Queen @SEisForever no she has sex with him because she wanted to. Once she realized he was a vampire, things changed.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

julieplec Verified account ‏@julieplec @Lab_Queen @SEisForever no she has sex with him because she wanted to. Once she realized he was a vampire, things changed.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

It's like watching a balloon floating over someone's head.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

When I saw it, I blinked and I thought - you quoted that? The woman literally says, "once she realized he was a vampire, things changed" and you're using that as proof that she was still consenting to have sex with the guy?

[–] orgine 8 years ago

It's like you're going to need to define every single word in that tweet for them. Preferably with pictures. They're still not going to get it, though. Watch them twist it around to something else. Kind of like the same way that the alcohol-as-compulsion argument has now turned into 'Caroline-slept-with-Klaus-so-she's-a-slut-who-can't-be-raped' argument.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

It's so exhausting. Do you ever get exhausted? I know that I'm exhausted and this is the first time I've ever truly waded into these waters. I have been biting hard on my tongue for a long time, trying not to get dragged into this discussion. And really all I want to do now is disengage from it.

I feel ... dirty, is the word. To have been involved in this. To have been on the receiving end of all this misogynistic vitriol. I feel somehow complicit - like if, the fact that I engaged in this conversation gave them an avenue to spout all this. Do you ever feel that way?

[–] orgine 8 years ago

Then - with all due respect - if you can't stand the heat, you need to stay out of the fire. Yeah, it's rough, I know when you think about the crappy real-world parallels between this stuff and the show. Which is why it's a conversation that no one's ever going to stop having. They're not going to ever get it, but that doesn't mean it's not important to keep saying. But look, you know your own mental health. If you're getting triggered by this conversation, you need to step back and/or step away for good.

Or just block a couple of people, like I do all the time. I mean, there's only so much vitriol someone can be expected to take.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Well, you said it. It's a conversation that's important to keep having. Doesn't mean that I have to be the one to continue it.

I feel blocking should be my absolute last resort. Or rather than blocking anyone, I should just block myself from the boards for a bit.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

You do you, then. I mean that nicely. If you need to give yourself a break, then you've more than earned it. Heck, I might do the same because lord knows, your epic take-downs are half the fun of coming in here. And now that the season's about the start, these discussions are going to get worse, not better.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

LOL.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

whatever happened to taking a break?

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

I will, I promise.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

Don't get me wrong I'm glad you're still here, but if you're waiting for these guys to concede, you're going to be a bag of bones. As you saw happen live, they will literally talk out of both corners of their mouth if they have to.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

good point.

[–] cocogurl-95192 8 years ago

What's crazy is even if they could explain away Damon's relationship with Caroline, how in the world do they justify his relationship with Andie, or Vicky? It's crazy.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

The same way every good rape lawyer does.
Deny. Deny. Deny.
Also that Damon's hot. He doesn't need to rape anyone.
And the new one - "intermittent" consent. All the cool kids are doing it now.

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

julieplec Verified account ‏@julieplec @Lab_Queen @SEisForever no she has sex with him because she wanted to. Once she realized he was a vampire, things changed.

She further expanded on it. I will find her complete response.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

⏰⏰⏰⏰⏰⏰

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Thank you, I thought so myself. Have some more:

A reminder of when you made this declaration: 🕙

And now: 🕧

Any-day now, I'm sure....

(Thanks for the video. I'm sure it's as wonderful as you. But since I'm saving my bandwidth for the rest of Plec's tweet, I'll pass. 😉 )

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

@julieplec @SEisForever I feel Damon did not just compell her for blood - but also to have sex with him when she was scared of him...
0 replies . 1 retweet 4 likes

julieplec Verified account
‏@julieplec

@Lab_Queen @SEisForever no she has sex with him because she wanted to. Once she realized he was a vampire, things changed.

The truly clear statement is that Damon did not force Caroline to have sex with him. That is the only time we see sex between the two characters. "Once she realized he was a vampire, things changed." Did they ever have sex again? We do see Damon on the bed with the Twilight book, fully dressed. We also see him on Elena's bed with a teddy bear, fully dressed. Later in the series, when Caroline is already a vampire, we see him watch her get ready from the doorway.

julieplec Verified account
‏@julieplec

@SEisForever he was an amoral character who used and abused a young ingenue. She was naive and easily manipulated and drawn to a bad boy.

So, again, the writers when faced with the question of rape, default to use and abuse; two things undisputed by everyone. "Nativity and manipulation" do not compulsion make. That she was "drawn to a bad boy" is obvious in her eagerness to please him. Sex after the initial night was not implied. There was a single kiss, and a single hug before he tried to drain her in this short time frame. There was a whole lot of doing his bidding to further his plot in Mystic Falls in the meantime. That is what was depicted with compulsion. When she would refuse to do something he told her to, he would take her arms, capture her eyes with his, and compel her again. Guess compulsion needs a booster shot...

Julie Plec further states that she avoids rape as a theme for her characters, as this is then the only lens through which they are viewed and they cannot lead normal lives at that point, as they are stuck in this single event.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

Yeah. I'm positively on tenterhooks in anticipation of this. 😏😏

[–] orgine 8 years ago

OK, not even going into what ursulazsenya said about how compulsion doesn't wear off. You want to use alcohol as a metaphor, let's think it through for a moment. Let's work through every aspect of that argument, shall we?

However, once the alcohol is out of his or her system, consent can wholly be given. That is where Caroline had intermittent agency.

So this girl is inebriated/ high/ not in her right mind - and during that time, this practical stranger treats her as a literal and figurative chew toy. He repeatedly reminds her that when he's done with her, he's going to straight up murder her.

So when she gets sober, her first thought is not - oh my god, I need to get help, call my mom, talk to the police, go to a women's shelter, lock myself inside my room and make sure he doesn't find me again and enslave me (with alcohol, drugs, whatever) and just generally get the hell away from this guy before he literally kills me.

No, her thought is "Wow, since I'm sober, I'd better get some clear-headed-sex with the abusive, clearly pscyhopath prick that's being chewing a hole through my neck for the past few days/weeks before he gets me all high again and I lose my ability to consent to have sex with him?"

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

No, her thought is "Wow, since I'm sober, I'd better get some clear-headed-sex with the abusive, clearly pscyhopath prick that's being chewing a hole through my neck for the past few days/weeks before he gets me all high again and I lose my ability to consent to have sex with him?"

You mean in a similar manner as she did with Klaus? A man who repeatedly threatened her and indeed killed her friends? Sure. That seems to be how this character is written.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

Er... no. Because Klaus wasn't compelling Caroline at any point in time in their interactions.

Nice try, though.

Sure. That seems to be how this character is written.

Cue the slut-shaming was due in 3... 2... 1...

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

Er... no. Because Klaus wasn't compelling Caroline at any point in time in their interactions. Nice try, though.

To get you up to speed, the issue is would a non-compelled woman such as Caroline continue to be involved with Damon knowing what he was and what he had done. She proves with Klaus that, yes, she would opt to sleep with such a man on her own convolution.

Cue the slut-shaming was due in 3... 2... 1...

Slut-shaming? How so? Her choice. No harm no foul. It simply proves that this character could easily opt to have a sexual relationship with Damon without compulsion. He would be her type, if Klaus were a barometer.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Slut-shaming? How so? Her choice. No harm no foul. It simply proves that this character could easily opt to have a sexual relationship with Damon without compulsion. He would be her type, if Klaus were a barometer.

No, it doesn't prove anything. Apart from the obvious that Klaus was not in the middle of threatening to kill Caroline and regularly feeding on her and demeaning her when they had sex.

And for the record, let it be stated that this new "Klaus" argument has absolutely no bearing on your own "alcohol is compulsion" logic which doesn't come into play in any of Klaus x Caroline's interactions as she's never at any point compelled by Klaus. A key difference that you're ignoring in favour of examining/ questioning Caroline's sexual history / decisions. You're defending a rapist by bringing in the victim's sexual history. Textbook strategy from every rapist's defence attorney ever. So yeah, congratulations on that.

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

A key difference that you're ignoring in favour of examining/ questioning Caroline's sexual history / decisions. You're defending a rapist by bringing in the victim's sexual history. Textbook strategy from every rapist's defence attorney ever. So yeah, congratulations on that.

If I may approach the court, your honor. Firstly, I am not defending a rapist, therefore there is no victim of rape and no need to make her preferences inadmissible. I do not accept your premise.

To say that Caroline would unequivocally avoid a vampire who has been violent towards her, killed her friends, and manipulated her choices is intellectually dishonest. Klaus is a complete parallel and viable candidate to parade before the court. He inhabited someone's body. No need to compel when you can show up as Tyler, the one person your victim desires. So, I will fling off my pearls if you take off your very dusty white wig.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

And once again you trip yourself up with your own arguments - Klaus inhabited Tyler's body and when Caroline starts kissing him - he stops her and tells her exactly who he is, knowing and expecting her reaction. Apparently, it's only special vampires like Damon Salvatore that rape women.

Firstly, I am not defending a rapist, therefore there is no victim of rape and no need to make her preferences inadmissible. I do not accept your premise.

The funny thing about this statement of yours is that - in real life rape cases? The victim's sexual history is almost always made admissible to the court. So no matter how you spin it, you're definitely doing exactly what a rape defence attorney is doing it. Doesn't matter whether you admit a rape occurred - which, by the way, is what rape defence attorney's job is - proving that a rape never happened. So you have my congratulations as well.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

origin said it better, really. ::sighs::

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

I will say that Klaus did take advantage of Caroline in a way, when she thought that he was Tyler and he kissed her under false beliefs because she thought that ht was someone that he wasn't and used Tyler's body to his advantage.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

She initiated the kissing and he made her stop by telling her who he was. I'm not comfortable with that scene but it could easily have gone the other way and it didn't.

I'm not a Klaus or Klaroline fangirl before you jump down my throat. I think he should have died in season 2 and that keeping him around but not unkillable was one of the many fatal flaws this show made. I also think that Klaroline is disturbing for several reasons and if they absolutely had to ship Klaus with someone, it should have been with Bonnie Bennett not the new Vampire Barbie. If I hold any ship in this show dear to my heart - it's Forwood.

And I'm stating all this for the record so you'll understand where I'm coming from when I say that that's a stark example of how "not all vampires are rapists even when they have the opportunity to do so."

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Yeah but making her believe that he was Tyler at that point was wrong. Just like it was wrong for Katherine to try and take advantage of Elena's body/Stefan by making Stefan believe that she was Elena, in hopes that she could get Stefan and also tried to use Elena to get Stefan to kill Damon. If she would have been willing to sleep with Stefan in Elena's body then that would be another way that she raped Stefan.

Of course Stefan didn't go for it. But, it's still kind of creepy and wrong for characters to use another person's body under false pretenses to trick or fool another character into thinking that they are someone that they aren't.

I'm just pointing out how the writers get cross the line or get close to crossing the line and it's with other characters besides with Damon. The fact that JP explained Damon compelling Caroline as a part of vampire nature, I wouldn't be surprised if off screen that compelling women/people before or during sex was considered a part of more than one of the vampire characters nature.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

It was wrong but he told her within minutes of getting a chance to do so. So I'm not going to split hairs over that. Like I said, I'm not a Klaus fan and I don't have a stake in this game. It is problematic, but barely in the region of this discussion. I find Caroline compelling Liam to make out with her far more problematic than that moment.

The fact that JP explained Damon compelling Caroline as a part of vampire nature, I wouldn't be surprised if off screen that compelling women/people before or during sex was considered a part of more than one of the vampire characters nature.

Did, Plec though? I'm just having this conversation on another thread. Did she actually go on record to say that Damon didn't rape Caroline?

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Yes, I believe that at least at one point JP tried to defend the writing for what Damon did to Caroline and said something about how it was in a vampire's nature. I don't remember exactly what she said. But, I do know that JP tried to defend it and not call it rape. That's why JP enables the fans who don't think that it's rape to say that it isn't rape.

And also part of the reason why I don't think JP's claims to feminism seriously. Because the way that she writes for her show does a disservice to women characters.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

There was this conversation on tumblr, that I sadly lost track of that went something like this:

A: I heard there were 2 lesbians in season 7.
B: Yes.
A: What possible role could 2 women not naturally inclined to obsess over a man's d--- play in this show?
B: Nothing.
A: ?
B: They literally set themselves on fire and die.

Which, yes, summarises your point perfectly.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Gosh, I wish I had written this. Or waited for you to reply first. Because it's so much more nail-hitting than mine.

Stefan gets Caroline on vervain and - hey presto! - her sexytimes with Damon comes to a screeching stop. You'd think that based on that ridiculous theory, that now that she's clear-headed and sex with Damon was so important to her that she was willing to overlook every aspect of their relationship, that they would continue to have sex together. Apparently it was one thing to have sex with him while she had "intermittent' agency" but she stopped when she had "full agency". Gee, I wonder why the big difference.

I don't know whether to be amused or frustrated.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

I was going to put something there about how they won't be able to counter any of their own logic and yep, not five minutes later, they deflect/backtrack, this time with slut-shaming.

This is your interpretation of Caroline. No one called her a slut. In fact, it is the opposite - I give her free will and don't require that she be compelled to do what she loves to do. Old tired argument.

And *beep* that idiot that tried the " but I'm a rape survivor too so I know what rape is really like". *beep* you because if you knew anything about rape, you'd know that rape survivors generally aren't jumping over themselves to defend any kind of rapist, fictional or otherwise and even find the normalization of rape culture on TV disturbing and triggering. On behalf of every person who's ever been told that she can't be raped because she said yes the first time/ sleeps around / wears the wrong clothes/ is a slut - *beep* you for trying to appropriate other people's real life trauma to prop up someone and something that every rape survivor stands against. I can't read/reply to her posts because I blocked her offensive ass from my profile for a long time and it's a good thing because i'd probably blow a blood vessel doing so.

This is laughable even for a little minion. Just as you impose actions and statements on characters in a show, you do so with living individuals. If you read again the interaction on this thread, the person in question never said that he or she had been raped. A personal comment was lobbed at him or her stating that in essence it was obvious he or she had led a 'fortunate' life or basically would not be holding the views that he or she does. This person merely stated that this was not the case. That is all. Basically said that the assumption by the poster was incorrect, that he or she has not led a 'fortunate' life. You all ran with it rabidly. There was no statement this individual made that supports what you have said above. He/she did not indicate a rape had occurred. You all filled in the blanks with drool dripping from your muzzles. You were the ones who in effect turned a casual rebuttal into the crap you site in your above paragraph. How is that helpful?

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

This is your interpretation of Caroline. No one called her a slut. In fact, it is the opposite - I give her intermittent free will and don't require that she be compelled to do what she loves to do. Old tired argument.

Fixed that, for you.

Your ideas of women and sexuality are confused, confusing and frankly disturbing. No news there, really.

Caroline being a slut is =/= Caroline not having free will. Sluts, by definition, are women who freely, happily, cheerfully, willingly engage in lots and lots of sex. Which is why bringing a woman's sexual history is always ridiculous - a woman having consensual sex A has no bearing on whether she was forced into having consensual sex B.

The only purpose of that argument is to imply that since this woman had consensual sex A with person A, then she will always give consent to sex; sex B with person B can not be non-consensual because this kind of woman would never refuse to have sex with person B, under circumstances B.

That's the insidiousness and ridiculousness of using her sleeping with Klaus to 'defend' Damon's rape. It's the 21st century/supernatural version of "only virgins can be raped".

As for the rest.... Bluesexy never said what exactly their personal experience was, and I never asked for details because I found the apropos-of-nothing statement not only unprovable but in bad taste. You're the one who said that I should show "sensitivity" as a "sister" for their experience, painting a picture that I neither believed nor the OP admitted one way or the other. So I think if anyone's jumping to conclusions and playing that card, it's you.

And chill with the insults. Someone might think you're falling back on name-calling because you don't have actual logic to provide.

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

I see you two hunt in pairs. For the record, I was responding to Orgine and the very pointy paragraph regarding that poster.

Now, as to your input regarding assuming the poster was sexually assaulted and questioning her opinions based on it.

No doubt a lot of people will wonder how someone who has undergone any form of sexual assault would take the stance that you currently do. I guess they'll just have to take your word for it, being unable to approve/disprove it in anyway. Far be it for anyone to call anyone else a liar on the internet.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

OK, there are multiple conversations going on here and I might be missing something but what is your point? You're the still the one who was soliciting 'sensitivity' from a 'sister-in-arms' or has that changed since this morning?

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

As for the rest.... Bluesexy never said what exactly their personal experience was, and I never asked for details because I found the apropos-of-nothing statement not only unprovable but in bad taste.

It's in bad taste to imply and assume things about people you nothing about. You tried to direct the conversation down a personal route, and I shut it down. Instead of respecting that you continued on several occasions to take that route and actively put words into my mouth, then looked down your nose at those words.

That's the insidiousness and ridiculousness of using her sleeping with Klaus to 'defend' Damon's rape. It's the 21st century/supernatural version of "only virgins can be raped".

You keep projecting your opinion onto others. No one here is defending rape, merely rejecting the premise that rape took place. Two very different things.

And chill with the insults. Someone might think you're falling back on name-calling because you don't have actual logic to provide.

Pot and kettle here again. Sigh.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

As no one twisted your arm to disclose or insinuate your alleged personal experience, you only have yourself responsible for that.

No one here is defending rape, merely rejecting the premise that rape took place. Two very different things.

When you're rejecting the premise that rape took place, then you're defending it. That's the entire premise of any self-respecting rape apologist, of which there are plenty afoot.

Sigh.

About the only honest thing you've posted.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] orgine 8 years ago

Oh well, I didn't know that the person never said they'd been raped. That user is blocked to me so I only see greyed out posts next to their name. I assumed from your tear-inducing "show some lover to your fellow woman victim" that the person had said that. I was reacting to the spin that you put on the events.

Little minion? Dripping from muzzles?

😀😀😀😀😀

“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”

― Socrates

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

You know I know that expression - when you resort to insults, you've lost the argument - but I never knew it was from Socrates. Guess this thread hasn't been an entire waste of my time, then.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] orgine 8 years ago

LOL. Yeah, right. I wasn't in a discussion with that person, have no clue wtf she's posted of late, so I didn't resort to insults because my logic had failed me.Can't say the same about you.

Nice try, though.

Lemme know when you're ready to actually address your 'alcoholism-as-compulsion' argument or, failing that as you so obviously have, come up with some other analogy for me to decimate.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Thanks for the extended hand to discuss compulsion, and particularly the brand of compulsion you've created in your head.

In other words, you basically proved the point that has been made ad nauseum on this thread. Backed into a logical corner, you derail, obfuscate or deprage.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

Thanks for the extended hand to discuss compulsion, and particularly the brand of compulsion you've created in your head.

Quite certain that I didn't argue about "brands" of compulsion - just used your own alcohol-as-compulsion and riddled it with bullet holes. If anything, you're the one who's equating compulsion to Klaus looking like Tyler.

Nice try, though.

As for the rest - I see a loooooot of words but nothing that addresses the "alcohol-as-compulsion" argument that you started. Wonder why that is? So yeah. Thanks for proving my point. 😎

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Thank you for saying what I have been trying to say for a while. Ursula seems so obsessed with arguing what is essentially a moot point in a fictional show about a fictional character, that she can't see that in the process she is shaming, belittling an actual person for not agreeing with her.
It seems experiencing rape is the only credential she deems adequate enough to be able to understand what rape actually is. (Does she really believe that not a single Damon supporter has experienced abuse of some kind?) Ludicrous.
Furthermore, she is that far down the rabbit hole in this discussion, that she has lost the ability to recognise when someone is agreeing with her.

Now she is being disingenuous enough to deny that she did exactly what she accused me of....point scoring. Pot and kettle is an understatement around here because I have never sarcastically or otherwise suggested that any trauma that she implied she went through was not the truth, because that to me would be insensitive and dismissive of a real person's life. I might have been a bit cynical at her claim that she doesn't watch the show anymore, but I hardly think that is in the same ball park.
I haven't disclosed my personal life, since from experience around here, it is likely to met with scorn or dismissed....as proven.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

This is your interpretation of Caroline. No one called her a slut. In fact, it is the opposite - I give her free will and don't require that she be compelled to do what she loves to do. Old tired argument.

This!

Again, thank you pointing out what surely must be obvious by now.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Sexy times with Caroline (if they ever even occurred after the first time in their 3 day relationship) stopped because Damon had no need for that relationship to continue, hence why he tried to kill her at the Lockwood party after he found the crystal. Damon made exactly no moves to seek her out and they do not interact until 1x08 when he has to compel her to organize Stefan's birthday party at the grill.
Oh! yet another example of how Caroline had agency before Damon had to compel her obedience. I believe she called him dungeon boy and told him he seriously hurt her? Why would she do that if she was compelled to do what he says forever? Or if he compelled away her fear?
Stefan obviously hadn't given Caroline vervain at that point, and I can't remember exactly which episode it was that Stefan gave Elena vervain jewelry to give to her friends and family but Caroline was still susceptible to compulsion in 1x10 because Damon was compelling Caroline to help him find the rogue vamp (Logan Fell) at that time using the vampire compass. So your argument has failed yet again. Another example of how the show was telling the audience that Caroline had agency outside of the specific compulsion..until compelled otherwise.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

Thank you so very much.

I'm wondering the same thing. But it was explained that Vicki was actually Katherine's fault....

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

[–] orgine 8 years ago

Explaining that Vicky was Katherine's fault is probably the most obvious example of how it's impossible to take things on this show at face value. How can you reconcile that with what was actually shown? That Damon turned her and that Stefan killed her a full season before Katherine could even return to Mystic Falls? It's nonsensical.

I daresay some will argue that Damon was not raping Andi because we don't see him having sex with her. Apparently, they just had pillow fights in their underwear and cozy bath times together.

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

I know it is and to this day I wonder how they wrote this in and kept straight faces about it.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

.... and the best you can come up with is an earlier tweet from the same conversation?

I also noticed that the goal post has been officially shifted from "Caroline had intermittent agency and had consensual sex during her moments of clarity between being used as a chew toy content at the thoughts of her future murder" to... "Caroline and Damon didn't have any sex after she realised he was a vampire."

I'm satisfied with that. At least, I have got you to concede implicitly that any sex that happened afterwards would be rape - as evidences by the fact that your argument has shifted from re-defining consent & slut-shaming to flat-out denying that the sex never happened.

For any one who's interested though, this is the entirety of the conversation (4 Jul 2015) that Julie has ever gone on record (in the 8 years she's worked on this show) about this topic, in the right order:

julieplec: @SEisForever he was an amoral character who used and abused a young ingenue. She was naive and easily manipulated and drawn to a bad boy.

LabQueen: @julieplec @SEisForever I feel Damon did not just compell her for blood - but also to have sex with him when she was scared of him...

Plec: @Lab_Queen @SEisForever no she has sex with him because she wanted to. Once she realized he was a vampire, things changed.

LabQueen: @Cetacea3 @SEisForever if damon slept with her after he compelled her it was rape - that was not schown - but implied...i think he did...

LabQueen: @Cetacea3 @SEisForever so unless Julie says he didn't i think it's up to the viewers to Interpret what they saw and many agree it was rape

blueafternoon1: @julieplec @lab_queen @seisforever So they didn't have sex after she found out he was a vampire?

LabQueen: @julieplec @SEisForever Okay - always thought that after that he threw her back on the bed...and slept with her again - against her will...

@julieplec @SEisForever 1x04 he tells her he is probably going to kill her - after he compelled her and they kissed.. [video clip of this scene inserted]

@julieplec @SEisForever :( I'd really like another answer to this one - have i been watching all wrong?

The last thing Plec writes on this topic is "once [s]he realized he was a vampire, things changed." She does not state that Damon did not rape Caroline after she realized he was a vampire. She is asked point-blank several times whether he raped her or not, and she doesn't reply. She is asked point-blank if they had sex after Caroline finds out, and once again, she does not reply.

That he "used and abused" her does not mean that he did not have sex/rape her. She was "drawn to a bad boy" before she finds out that he was a vampire. She had sex with this "bad boy" because she wanted to.

After she found out he was a vampire, things changed.

'How exactly did things change, Julie?' ask several twitters.
Julie: 'deafening silence'.

The truly clear statement is that Damon did not force Caroline to have sex with him.

The only clear statements are that:

Julie Plec states that Caroline has sex with Damon willingly before she realized he was a vampire and after that - things changed.

Julie Plec chooses not to answer point-blank statements about whether Damon had sex with her afterwards or if he raped Caroline.

This whole thread of conversation started because I wanted to know if any of the writers of this show had ever clearly stated that Damon did not rape Caroline. The only statement that Sacrosanct has found, after undoubtedly endless hours of internet searching, is Julie Plec saying that Caroline had consensual sex with Damon before she knew he was a vampire, and 'things changed' after that; and Julie Plec being unable to say anything to questions by the same user/group of users she's responding to, about whether Damon later raped Caroline or not.

So naturally, the conclusion that Sacroscant draws from this is NOT that Damon raped Caroline and Julie Plec cannot say otherwise because she understands the implication of that but that:

Sex after the initial night was not implied.

It was implied after he threw her on the bed the day after their first night together and she comes late to school.
It's further implied when he kisses her on the bed as they talked about Twilight and how he's going to eventually murder her.

But hey, I'm not going to split hairs about this. Like I said first, at least we've moved past the shameful discussions of whether "intermittent" agency can consent to sex, or judging Caroline for her sexual decisions, etc and arrived at the purgatory of whether Damon and Caroline actually had sex at all. So I'll take it as a victory that you have indirectly acknowledged that there is no way any sex that happened when "things changed" was consensual. Whether or not you choose to believe that sex happened... well, the evidence speaks for itself and someone (me) has to draw the line somewhere.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

If you want in-depth research, educate yourself and do it yourself.

When I asked the question about Plec ever talking about this, I wasn't even asking you. You chose to take the challenge upon yourself. No one asked you to go digging for answers that never existed. Now you're looking like a fool but really, you only have yourself to blame for that.

BTW the comments beneath hers are random responses by Damon haters. Perhaps JP was not unable to respond, but rather chose not to engage...because why bother really?

Now a complete stranger who you've had no prior interaction with is a "random hater"? Because she asked a few questions? I suppose you need to tell JP this - as she's mutual follows with this "random hater".

As for the rest of your tirade - you said the same to origin and she certainly answered you appropriately. I guess there's nothing more for me to do than to take her lead and block you as well.

I have a life

You could have fooled me.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

The only thing I'm getting from these tweets is that Julie never said that Damon didn't rape Caroline after he revealed himself as a vampire. Additionally, per her further tweets from this discussion she never answers several point-blank questions asking her if he did.

Nice try though.

Sex after the initial night was not implied.

LOL. Well, like ursulazsenya said, at least you've dropped the disgusting 'intermittent' consent rape apologia. Now we've gone to flat-out denying that the sex even happened. Since the show's not on HBO or Showtime, there's always going to be a loophole there, isn't it? Smart.

And you know what? if this had been your position from the first, no one would have had a problem with everything you've said. You don't think Damon raped Caroline because you don't actually see him have sex with her is a world of difference from the disgusting nonsense you were arguing before where your own alcohol-as-compulsion argument showed how stupid your intermittent agency theory was; or you needed to judge Caroline's "ability" to be raped by Damon on her own sexual history. If you want to tell yourself that Damon didn't have sex with her, by all means, hug those delusions tight to your chest like a teddy bear. Don't come here trying to redefine rape to suit the male character that gets your panties wet.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] orgine 8 years ago

Both of these statements can reside within the same realm of possibility. They do not conflict with each other.

Either Caroline and Damon didn't have sex - or they did. The two statements cannot exist in the same realm of possibilities because the two statements are precise contradictions of each other. Even a third grader would grasp that. But I guess expecting a modicum of intelligence from such as yourself is asking too much.

Sex was implied. JP didn't say that there was sex that night because JP refused to answer the question point-blank. You know who said there was sex that night? Ian Somerhalder, who as the actor presenting himself as Damon, would know the nuances he should put in his performance. Funny how your own words come back to bite you. Assuming you even knew what the word meant in the first place.

Your enthusiastic attempt at paralleling compulsion as alcohol has now turned into something "mentioned in passing". Pathetic. As pathetic as your position that "qualities of men that Caroline was attracted to/accepted" is an explanation for why she couldn't have been raped by a man that bears those qualities. Because that's how you tell a person's been raped - by whether the accused in question is someone that they'd ordinarily sleep with.

Textbook legal defence for every rape trial ever - use the victim's sexual history evidence. Because of course in matters of rape, what is on trial is what "qualities in a sex partner" the victim prefers and if her alleged rapist fits those qualities - not if she gave her consent to have sex with her partner, regardless of what qualities he presents. That last was sarcasm because no doubt that went over your head.

Besides just being a generally disgusting and creepy comment, it is incredibly misogynistic and directed at a person rather than a character.

You clearly have no problems dishing a few choice personal comments yourself but you get your knickers all in a twist at receiving them. Add hypocrite to your list of flaws. Disgusting and creepy comment for a disgusting and creepy personality. Believe me, I would have said worse - describing in great detail just how loathsome and pathetic you've shown yourself to be, how lacking in intelligence, common decency, common sense, a contributor to the equally loathsome rape culture you are so passionate about defending - but I would probably be violating the TOS. Consider yourself blocked.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

The username of the person JP is responding to is very unsurprising!

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

I agree with you on the compulsion thing. There are different forms of compulsion seen on the show. Like the type Caroline was under to do the dishes. It was specific to that task, and once the task was completed she was no longer compelled ie temporary.
We have seen compulsion used to erase memories, and that type of compulsion seem to be infinite or until the person transitions into a vamp or the vampire who did that compelling reverses the compulsion. We have also seen compulsion that is lasting like when Elijah compelled Katherine to stay in the tomb, or when Klaus compelled Stefan to protect the blood bag.

In regards to Caroline, it's clear to me that she wasn't under any compulsion to do whatever Damon said or be agreeable to his advances...because she was able to directly refuse, like when he wanted her to wear the Blue dress and take him to the party.
She was basically his bloodbag and minion.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

For someone who is adamantly 'not discussing' their personal life, it's a card you consistently play, isn't it? 😉 Considering the fact that I've made it quite clear that I take your 'confidence' with not a grain of salt, but the entire saline content of the Dead Sea, it's amusing that you think any further 'revelations' on your part would have ever held any significance to me.

This is not my problem, because I don't have one, it's yours so own it and stop projecting.
My opinion is that your version of events flies in the face of everything in this genre, and seeks to imply things that don't exist. Maybe you shouldn't watch if you are too sensitive to absorb the content and process it in a logical, mature way that is not triggering, nor take part in discussions that are likely to upset you because your opinion is disputed, not just by me, but other posters too.

And your opinion has been roundly disputed by several other posters on this thread and others. So your point is what, precisely? That people disagree on the Internet? What an epiphany.

Several other posters have pointed out to you the flaws in your argument both for the show and reality. It has been persistently pointed out to you how and why your reasoning flies in the face of basic common sense and moral decency and seeks to defend the indefensible. Your analogies and reasonings have been broken down and shown to be lacking (to which you respond by discarding them). You are inconsistent with your arguments (e.g. your 'current' defence is now that Damon did not have sex with Caroline post-reveal.... then are you admitting that if he did have sex with her, it would have been rape?) because you are not having a discussion, you are on a crusade against apparently all the people that "hate on Damon and make up false charges about him" without reflecting on the ludicrousness of that statement.

People don't hate a fictional character by default. If a character is 'hated', it is because he is written to do/say hateful things. That you are examining this entire discussion from this frankly delusional stance where everyone who hates Damon has an agenda of some sort (an agenda of what? hating Damon? shipping Stelena? not agreeing with you?) is quite alarming.

As for whose 'problem' this is, it seems clear from the way you offensively and aggressively respond to every and any criticism about your favourite character, your inability to let any thread that posts a negative opinion about Damon/Delena go unchallenged by your vitriol, that this is clearly something close to your heart. It is indeed amusing that you are playing the 'victim' card now, considering how borderline bullying you have behaved towards every poster who has mildly agreed with you on this topic long before questions about 'personal experience' where raised. Indeed, it begs the question of exactly what side of the coin, your 'personal experience' with this subject matter rests.

😱

Which, on further reflection, actually makes an alarming amount of sense and might explain why this entire topic is so important to you! If you are approaching it from the perspective of someone who needs to justify the actions of Damon in this matter because there are actions that you tacitly approve of, then I can imagine why this conversation becomes vital. At which point I can only say that it's way past time I use the block option, because there's only so much toxicity, vitriol and sheer offensiveness that can be regarded as tolerable.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Several other posters have pointed out to you the flaws in your argument both for the show and reality. It has been persistently pointed out to you how and why your reasoning flies in the face of basic common sense and moral decency and seeks to defend the indefensible. Your analogies and reasonings have been broken down and shown to be lacking (to which you respond by discarding them). You are inconsistent with your arguments (e.g. your 'current' defence is now that Damon did not have sex with Caroline post-reveal.... then are you admitting that if he did have sex with her, it would have been rape?).

Nope, I was agreeing with the other poster that it is a possibility that Damon and Caroline only had sex once therefore rendering the whole thing moot. Accepting other possibilities does not negate anything I said previously.

you are on a crusade against apparently all the people that "hate on Damon and make up false charges about him

On the contrary, I'm not the one posting multiple threads (some of which I haven't posted a thing in) titled and filled with anti-Damon sentiments. Oh, and I see a brand new one has just popped up thanks to your best bud, the anti Damon crusader 😀.

As for whose 'problem' this is, it seems clear from the way you offensively and aggressively respond to every and any criticism about your favourite character, your inability to let any thread that posts a negative opinion about Damon/Delena go unchallenged by your vitriol,

A complete exaggeration and distortion of the facts. Not surprising.

That you are examining this entire discussion from this frankly delusional stance

This is pure comedy. Especially coming from someone who seems to rely on tumblr posts to inform her POV instead of the actual show....that you don't watch anymore.

considering how borderline bullying you have behaved towards every poster who has mildly agreed with you on this topic long before questions about 'personal experience' where raised. Indeed, it begs the question of exactly what side of the coin, your 'personal experience' with this subject matter rests.

Actually, I think you need to reread and rethink because I far as I can remember, I have not called anyone names such as "Rape apologist" "delusional" or told anyone to Fxxk xff. I have been civil and only retaliated in the same vein when I have felt personally attacked for my opinions. In reality the thread devolved and insults were traded in both directions but only you and your wingman decided to stoop to mysogynistic vitriol. What a lovely example you are.

Which, on further reflection, actually makes an alarming amount of sense and might explain why this entire topic is so important to you

I place the same amount of importance on it as you do. I have not been here arguing by myself.

If you are approaching it from the perspective of someone who needs to justify the actions of Damon in this matter because there are actions that you tacitly approve of, then I can imagine why this conversation becomes vital.

Damon's actions with regards to Caroline were completely amoral, and he used and abused her horrifically. There is no justification for this so therefore zero tacit approval.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

Only one of those cases is violent. All these cases are rape. The law recognises that rape can occur in a variety of 'non-violent' ways (statutory, marital rape, institutional rape) because rape =/= violent sex. It's sex without consent whether the consent was taken forcibly (violence, blackmail) or consent could never have been given in the first place (under-age, in-balance of power, someone who wasn't even conscious in the first place), etc.

Ummm no and this is the problem in this country. This very thing happened to a old friend of mine. He went to a party there got drunk with a lady there who also lied about her age. Sleep with her completely consensual but yet when the parents found out he was charged like if he raped her. That's not right and its a constant reminder of why we need to change the laws of what rape and consent really is in this country. I will give you that if you sleep with someone unconscious or sleep with someone very young how that could be rape. But too many ppl have twisted what rape really is and that needs to change fast as well as lowering the legal age. It's ridiculous that the law thinks someone is ready for sex strictly at the magical age of 18.

Pretty much the laws don't have always have it right and it ruins the true victims of this violent act.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

They shouldn't lower the age because minors at not mature in mind enough to consent or to know fully what they are getting into. Especially when you have adults into their 20's or older trying to prey on minors. That's why this laws are needed. Because some only prey on the young and are pedophiles. Kids under 18 are not mature or ready enough to have sex with grown adults.

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

I disagree they are no more ready for sex at 18 then they would be at 16. Lowering the age would stop men being prosecuted for having sex with a chick that is 17(granted that the sex is consensual) and also would stop teens from being in trouble for harmless acts like sexting. This idea that someone is strictly ready for sex when the clock strikes midnight on their 18th birthday is ludicrous. Once again the laws don't have it right in my opinion. Rape should only be prosecuted when the act in question is harmful or the person was unconscious and not aware during the act.

My mom used to work for a rape and domestic violence womens shelter and even victims of actual rape feel disgusted of what passes for rape. It harms what rape really is which is mainly a violent act.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

No the age shouldn't be lowered to 16. People and adults especially up onto their 30's, 40's, 50's plus sleeping with teens and 16 years old is predatory to me. If an adult person wanted to get with a 16 year old, then that same adult and some other adults would also prey on kids younger than that. A 16 year old can't and shouldn't be making decisions to sleep with adults and especially older adults.

A young kids life an be impacted if they become pregnant because of an adult preying on them and a 16 year old is no where near ready for parenthood.

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

I don't think so. Would it be predatory for a 40 year old man to get with an 18 year old? Once again the logic that someone is strictly ready for sex when the clock strikes midnight on their 18th birthday is ludicrous. There is no sound logic reason for it. It just seems like jealousy over the fact that men are naturally attracted to younger hot chicks. And the men that prey on children will do so whether the age of consent is lower or not. And those ppl that do prey on children deserve to be prosecuted. 16 isn't a child though its 2 years younger than the legal age now. 2 years isn't that much of a difference in someone's sexual maturity. Lowering the age would stop people from being prosecuted for harmless sexual acts.

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

Whether Ian believes this crap or not the fact is the showrunners(you know the ones that have the actual say in the story) have stated that wasn't the intention therefore isn't canon and doesn't need to be addressed.

[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

What it boils down to is PC nuts can't help but be PC nuts. It would be nice if we could discuss the actual show but these nutjobs are determined to bring in the modern uptight politics that have no place in this show. There is much better places to discuss such issues than on a IMBD board on a show about vampires.

Seriously I can't stress enough its a damn vampire show. It would be terribly unauthentic and complete disrespect to vampire lore to not portray the true nature of vampires. They have always been seductive creatures that take what they want no different than a wild animal.

These PC nuts really need to stick with their cozy disney and lifetime shows.

[–] Dogandathermos 8 years ago

He's such an over-grown, bratty child. Sure, he has his moments. There were some especially sweet ones when Stefan wasn't around to do it and Elena desperately needed taking care of. But for the most part, he's the problem that needs solving. Like how about when there was a pretty solid plan in-place for Elena to drink Elijah's elixer and Damon force-fed her vampire blood!? Or when he promised Ric "no surprises" at the dinner party and then attempted weild the all-demon killing dagger (narrowly saved by Stefan's phone
call). Or when everything was OK and on-track, Elena had made her wishes clear (I'm forgetting exactly what this was about but it was during the time she was working with Elijah) and Damon grabbed Andy, saying they were splitting from the team. Going rogue.

There's a zillion more examples. All of which he himself knows. That's why he put himself to sleep. Destroying a friendship with Bonnie that he didn't much deserve post-prison world anyway. Everything is always one step forward, four steps back with him.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

But for the most part, he's the problem that needs solving.

Perfect. That's the perfect summary of Damon. Most of his greatest 'saves' are him fixing his own messes. For example, he get credit for 'rescuing' Caroline & Tyler from Klaus but he only did that because he screwed up in the first place. And to fix that mistake, Aunt Jenna and Uncle John had to die. He gets credit for 'saving' Bonnie in the s6 finale, but whose idea was it to lock Kai up in the first place? The whole heretics -> Julian -> Phoenix stone -> Rayna -> Armoury -> vault chain of events can be traced back to that decision in s6.

[–] Dogandathermos 8 years ago

Yes! Right! It's his fault Kai was locked back up, made a huger lunatic and brought back the Heretics, that he himself became a card-carrying member of. It's his fault he rashly went after his crazy mother in the first place. His fault she was EXTRA pissed when she psychically (or whatever) connected with Kai, and promised to turn him. His fault, at least by proxy, that Kai then choked out and drained Bonnie, before ferociously crashing what became a red wedding. All of witch led up to Bonnie basically being blamed for angering Kai to the point of the sleeping spell.

And what about where Katherine was concerned? First 26 tomb vamps are let out because of him. His sniffing around the sealed tomb led to lovlies like: Elena being nabbed by Lexi's destroyed lover, and this innocent teen has to save DAMON. After killing Jeremy, he brought Anna and worstactoraward Bartender into his and Bonnie's lives. They kidnap her and Elena. Anna planned to use "cute, floppy" Jer as so much Ensure for her crusty mama. OMG, not to mention Isobel, Elena's own birth mama, being fully on him. But that brought us our Ric so I'll make an exception.

Stefan had to risk his life to save Damon on the night of the tomb vampire roundup, which could have gone a whole other way. Plus, Bonnie wouldn't have lied about not removing the spell on the device, had Damon not been such a dick. Katherine was lured to town by that whole tomb vamp release and she reaked utter havoc. So was destroying Elena's life, controlling what meant most. So what does Damon do after ripping out Mason's heart? He calls Kit Kat to brag about it. So she attempts to disembowel Aunt Jenna.

I *finally* liked Enzo by the end of season 7, but for all the rest, he's been the Domino's Noid (look it up, I'm ancient). Guess what was Damon's best buddy's fault (the one he "owed" endless bad behavioring comraderie to, after leaving him to burn)? Ah, EVERYTHING. Enzo's 2 yr old antics as a ghost led to the Travellers dopplenapping Stelena. After he'd stopped Luke's spell and tried to roast him (along with Stefan and Damon). That protective cloaking spell was the last trick the Gem's had up their sleeve before the Doppelgängers becoming an official liability. The Travellers got their blood and the Wonder Twins went after Stelena. Killing the Traveller who rescued them. Whose husband then killed Stefan. While it was all nice and heroic for Damon to blow himself up to retrieve him, there were too many people, too little twin accountability, and him dying with Bonnie didn't do anyone any favors. We all know what his "death" did to Elena. When he wasn't ruining her virtues in real-time, he was behind her mind-wipe, which left a pretty vapid, co-ed shell, of her former deep, warm chocolatey, empathetic and moral Elena.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

I won't go so far as say it's Damon's fault as much as Damon's bad decisions definitely started a chain of events that led to all these things happen. And in a better written story, this should be dealt with "in" the story. In Buffy season 7, she makes a bad call that leads to a lot of the Potentials being killed - an honest mistake made with good intentions - and she gets thrown out of her house and rulership given to Faith. Angel turns into Angelus after they have sex because they didn't know that this was going to break his Ensoulment curse. And after that, his relationship with the scooby gang is changed for good. They never trust him completely again. And Bonnie gets cursed out the first time they discover he's alive and she was hiding him. Xander and Willow make out and their relationships with their significant others change permanently. etc. etc. There are no consequences for Damon's actions. The narrative protects him. So it's Matt telling Bonnie that the heretics are in Mystic Falls because she betrayed Kai in season 7 - and no one ever mentions the fact that it was Damon's decision to go into 1903 AND trap Kai that started that snowball effect. Elena forgives him and kisses him as he dies in season 2 from werewolf bite - completely indifferent to the fact that her bio-dad and uncle John DIED to save her from becoming the vampire that Damon tried to turn her into. No one ever connects the fact that Aunt Jenna died to Damon's attempt to 'stop' Klaus from "hybr-ascending"that month because he felt bad about what he did to Elena.

ad nauseum.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

I completely forgot about that nice little continuity about how betrayed the gang feels about Angel, I loved the character (I seen Angel before Buffy) so when he was getting hated for something that really wasn't "his" fault, but now that I look back I understand it. The scoobies were continously traumatized by Angelus, especailly what he did to Jenny and Giles, their core group was betrayed and they were honest with the fact that even though it's Angel, they will still see that it's Angelus too, and what he's done. Even in seasons 4, 5, and Angel S5, they still don't forgive him.

That what escapes this show with Damon, the consequences are non-existent if not very, very light from Jeremy, Elena, Caroline, Bonnie, and Matt.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Someone blaming Damon for Kai's decisions post 1903 just as I said. Instead of Kai being a grown man who can make his own decisions on what to do after 1903. Call out Damon but then don't think that others should be held fully accountable for the murders/abuse/wrong doings that they commit to TVD. Just being Anti-Damon while whitewashing all other characters and blaming everything on Damon.

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

Who called out Damon though? I swear to you I've never seen or read that. I'm not being funny either. I've always seen Bonnie blamed but I have NEVER seen Damon blamed for Kai's actions.

No one is disputing what Kai has done, they never have. A few disgruntled fangirls don't count as they don't write the script. This thread was started because the OP wondered how Damon gets away with a lot of things, onscreen. Onscreen Kai paid for what he did, everyone hated him and no one pardoned him, that never really happens for Damon. Damon gets blamed for things like dessicating himself...really? This is a time he thought it would help to remove himself from the picture, admirable if you ask me. I'm not even gonna mention Caroline because it's been mentioned enough. He gets pardoned for throwing a tantrum in season 5, conspiring with Enzo to have Bonnie and Jeremy kidnapped, because Katlena broke up with him, this is primarily what this thread is about.

If I were to base everything on what fans thought, rather than what I see, then I would hate Bonnie along with most of TVD fanbase because she was "mean" to Vampires in the beginning of the series. I know you remember how fans, especially Damon fans, hated Bonnie because she didn't like them. Even going as far as calling her a bitch for actually being upset that Abby was turned. To this day there are Damon fans that hate Bonnie because of how their relationship started out. To this day there are Caroline fans that hate Bonnie because Bonnie was cold to her when she became a Vampire. These fans don't care that Bonnie had reasons to feel the way she did at the time, they only saw that she was being mean to their fave. This type of treatment isn't reserved for Kai fans only.

I guess I just don't understand why Kai is a constant comparison when the circumstances and how they are portrayed are vastly different. Kai died a villain, he was only treated as a villain and not once did this show try to woobify his actions by blaming the Gemini coven, Bonnie or Damon. Even if I were to mention Katherine, what she did to Stefan was rape, she took away his consent, they never acknowledged this, but every other act Katherine committed (or didn't commit), she was punished for them, she went to hell for them. Not once did this show turn Katherine into a victim, even when her past with Klaus/Elijah was revealed and the audience understood what motivated her, they still didn't depict her as anything but a villain.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

[–] ditzymuffin 8 years ago

Gracias, Jordan. I didn't have the strength to reply.

[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

LOL! I know the feeling. There is a lot on these threads that I literally do not have the emotional energy to deal with.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

I mentioned Kai because it's not only the writing that people have mentioned in this thread. It's also those in the Damon fandom who have whitewashed or Damon's wrongdoings and made excuses for them and in that case I say that the Kai fans who do the same with Kai or no better than the ones who choose to excuse Damon's rape of Caroline. And the ones who blame Bonnie for Kai's abuse of her in 1994. Even on youtube just for the past couple of days you have a Kai fan blaming Bonnie and writing long metas on how Bonnie did Kai wrong. Blaming her again for Kai's actions in 1994 and going into a long explanation of how Bonnie owed it to Kai to think about what he went through in the 18 years locked up in prison and how Bonnie was wrong to lock Kai in 1994.

If Caroline had even gotten the chance to express rightful anger towards Damon and lash back out at him, then I would never blame her for it or say that she owed it to Damon to understand the abusive childhood that he came from. Nor do any of Damon's victims owe it to him to understand his difficult past. Klaus's victims don't owe it to him to understand any hard ships that he went through. So, why are some acting like Bonnie is suppose to get past what Kai did to her and show him empathy and sympathy for his childhood or what he went through in 18 years as a result of him killing his family. If Kai was an innocent person locked in the prison world then it would make more sense for Bonnie to feel sorry for him.

I think that the writers whitewashing Damon's rape/Damon fans whitewashing his rape/ and Kai fans or Bonnie haters who blame Bonnie for what Kai did to her and think that she owes it to him for forgiveness all fall in the same line and that it is what makes victims of abuse/rape hesitate to come forward because you actually have people who feel and think this way in real life.

[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

You are correct, there is hate for Bonnie from some Kai stans because they felt she owed him, why I don't know. But there is also hate, on YouTube as well, for Bonnie when she tried to kill Klaus, when she gave Damon an aneurysm, when she didn't lift a finger to help Damon when the Original's forced her to unlink them, when Damon shoulder bumped her after Elena turned and she was feeding from people at that party the three of them attended, her attitude at the 20's dance when she was forced by Klaus to do the location spell and she confronted Damon about Abby. My particular favorite? When Bonnie made Caroline her daylight ring. All you have to do is type in "Bonnie Bennett" and somewhere in the comments section you'll read really nasty responses about her character and how much they hate her. This board in general used to be filled with anti Bonnie posts, like one after the other. That's why I never call out an individual group of fans when it comes to Bonnie since half of the fanbase, regardless of who they stan, don't like her.

The whole Caroline situation is one thing, but Damon has done other things, one of these things is the death of Vicki. We know Damon killed her, we saw Damon kill her, yet the situation is Katherine's fault? According to the writers it was, even though Kat wasn't even in Mystic Falls, but yeah, it's her fault. Or like I mentioned before, his hand in Jeremy and Bonnie being kidnapped in season 5 because he was mad....at Elena. At least the Damon/Caroline situation was never outright referenced as anything but him being a dick to her on the show, so to a lot of fans his actions with her are somewhat debatable, the other situations were smack dab in our faces and still, these writers and fans choose to either ignore them, change them or give him excuse.

And you are right, the WRITERS whitewashed what Damon did, but the WRITERS NEVER whitewashed what Kai did. That's the difference here. This same argument can be used for Stefan, Caroline and Elena, they too, have done things that are either totally forgotten, or they were never outright blamed for them in the first place.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

You're right about their being a lot of Bonnie hate in the fandom. And Bonnie gets a lot of hate for the things that others get a pass for or they don't get judged as harshly as Bonnie for doing the same types of things. Some just don't like it when Bonnie has any type of conflict with their fave character. And Bonnie is held to a different set of rules and standards/morals over the other characters. Partly because of the box that the writers have kept Bonnie in where they make her role out to be nothing but to serve and sacrifice for everyone, but never really being allowed to think for herself or put herself first. And anytime that she does she is bashed and hated on for it.

Even some admitting that they started to hate Bonnie in Season 6 when she talked about putting herself first. They think that her life is suppose to be lived always thinking about Elena;s needs and feelings, even while Elena is in a coma. She does one thing and is called a "horrible" friend towards Elena, despite all that she has given up for Elena. Like blaming her for Damon sleeping with Krystal, because she told Damon to move on, The same thing that Stefan told him and when Elena also told him to live his life, but they focus on what Bonnie said and act like it's her job to lecture to Damon about Elena and how he needs to stay "faithful" to her whenever he feels like sleeping with another woman. And that choice is all on Damon.

I don't agree with the writing for Damon at times. Especially them just excusing it on manpain or him going on a temper tantrum because of Elena or who he thinks of Elena rejecting him or breaking up with him. Keeping his character from growing because they are trying to force "I can't be a good brother or man without Elena". Which is nonsense because Damon is a grown man and shouldn't need any woman there to make sure that he acts right, he should be able to do it on his own. And because it's unfair to Elena, to make her accountable and saying that it's on any woman to have to be there for a man in a certain way to make sure that he doesn't act out and behave's himself. Makes the relationship out to be more of a parent/child, than one between two grown people.

Which is why I also disagree with the "Kai wouldn't have did what he did after 1903, if Bonnie would have forgiven him and accept him" thing that some come up with against Bonnie and for Kai. He is grown enough to decide right from wrong. And no grown man should have to require a woman being with him and coddling to his feelings and giving him what he wants, to decide that he ONLY will act right and behave himself if he is getting everything that he wants from that woman.

I do agree that the others get free passes in their writing in their own way. Like I said before with Stefan he has his own advantages, him being a ripper used for his fans to defend him and he can avoid being labeled as a outright cold blooded killer/abuser, because him being in bloodlust in a way allows him not be held fully accountable and despite everything Stefan comes off as the good brother to the writers and some fans, which I stopped believing in the good brother/bad brother thing as while ago and don't think that the gap between Stefan and Damon and morals are as far as some make it out to be.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

You're right about their being a lot of Bonnie hate in the fandom. And Bonnie gets a lot of hate for the things that others get a pass for or they don't get judged as harshly as Bonnie for doing the same types of things. Some just don't like it when Bonnie has any type of conflict with their fave character. And Bonnie is held to a different set of rules and standards/morals over the other characters. Partly because of the box that the writers have kept Bonnie in where they make her role out to be nothing but to serve and sacrifice for everyone, but never really being allowed to think for herself or put herself first. And anytime that she does she is bashed and hated on for it.

There is no doubt that Bonnie got lots of hate in the early seasons. The reason being she was anti vampire, therefore she disliked Stefan and Damon, Ergo hate. It's not right, but I get it. Damon and Stefan are, along with Elena the main characters so...it's natural. We were not meant to agree with her POV. It intensified when she became not only anti-vampire but anti Caroline at a time when the narrative was showcasing Caroline in a good light as as a newbie vamp and arguably the most likeable Caroline has been throughout the entire series. It didn't help her case when she was shown to not be empathetic to Carolines plight and her refusal to acknowledge her responsibilty or her part that played into Caroline becoming a vampire.

Partly because of the box that the writers have kept Bonnie in where they make her role out to be nothing but to serve and sacrifice for everyone, but never really being allowed to think for herself or put herself first

I get that, but aside from her Professor Shane arc in S4, Bonnie has always had agency, unlike Elena, most of her choices have been her choices and depicted as such..even if they are deemed to be matyrish.

I don't agree with the writing for Damon at times. Especially them just excusing it on manpain or him going on a temper tantrum because of Elena or who he thinks of Elena rejecting him or breaking up with him. Keeping his character from growing because they are trying to force "I can't be a good brother or man without Elena". Which is nonsense because Damon is a grown man and shouldn't need any woman there to make sure that he acts right, he should be able to do it on his own. And because it's unfair to Elena, to make her accountable and saying that it's on any woman to have to be there for a man in a certain way to make sure that he doesn't act out and behave's himself. Makes the relationship out to be more of a parent/child, than one between two grown people.

This just shipper nonsense is designed to lift Bamon up as a superior alternative when by your own reasonings, Damon did not fundamentally change within Bonnies influence ie: he still behaved selfishly to her on a lot of occasions.
Damon has done plenty of things and reacted positively for reasons that have nothing to do with Elena. Damon built friendships outside of Elena that he cared about for reasons that existed beyond Elena. His friendship with Bonnie was one of them......even if it was IMO the least organic. To clarify, I don't believe the writers did a good enough job to convince me that Bonnie would save Damon in the way she did from A) Kai in 6x03 or in 6x04/5. I buy that Damon would feel immense loyalty to Bonnie because of what she did for him...but I don't think he earned it in the same way he did with his other friends. In a nut shell, I believe Bonnie earned Damon's loyalty, but I don't think he earned hers until 6x22.

And because it's unfair to Elena, to make her accountable and saying that it's on any woman to have to be there for a man in a certain way to make sure that he doesn't act out and behave's himself. Makes the relationship out to be more of a parent/child, than one between two grown people.

I get that, and it was the dynamic in S5...for a while much to my chagrin but we have been shown that Damon can deal with a DE break up, even in S5 he was resigned to living a life without her as his girl because he was the one who broke up with her in 5x10. He dealt with that by drinking himself stupid at the Mystic Grill, what Damon could not deal with was Elena hating him, with Elena believing him to be an unredeemable monster...which is what Kat told him he was when she was posing AS Elena. Damon could deal with Elena not being his girl, he couldn't deal with her not being his friend or believing in him. That broke him. Out of everyone, she was the one who saw the real him, he let down his walls for her and here she was (as he thought) telling him he really was a piece of *beep* after she had tried the goods so to speak. She confirmed everything about him that he hated about himself. Kat really did a number on him...end of. H e acted out, his character regressed because of that, but this backslide does not negate the good things he did before that, it just resets the progress somewhat. He made massive strides from that point, and by the end of the season he was contemplating risking everything for Stefan and he did despite making some progress in his relationship with Elena. It might have been a calculated risk, but it was a risk he was willing to take. That is Damon Salvatore, Bonnie had nothing to do with it and neither did Elena.

Which is why I also disagree with the "Kai wouldn't have did what he did after 1903, if Bonnie would have forgiven him and accept him" thing that some come up with against Bonnie and for Kai. He is grown enough to decide right from wrong. And no grown man should have to require a woman being with him and coddling to his feelings and giving him what he wants, to decide that he ONLY will act right and behave himself if he is getting everything that he wants from that woman.

Agreed. As much as I don't like how Damon behaved in S5 when faux Elena broke up with him, I understand what drove that behaviour because there was seasons of history between those two characters to support that understanding. With Kai, there is nothing but a one sided infatuation with Bonnie that grew from knowing nothing about her personally except that he liked her and she was his ticket out of 1994. He didn't love Bonnie, how could he? he didn't really know her.

I do agree that the others get free passes in their writing in their own way. Like I said before with Stefan he has his own advantages, him being a ripper used for his fans to defend him and he can avoid being labeled as a outright cold blooded killer/abuser, because him being in bloodlust in a way allows him not be held fully accountable and despite everything Stefan comes off as the good brother to the writers and some fans, which I stopped believing in the good brother/bad brother thing as while ago and don't think that the gap between Stefan and Damon and morals are as far as some make it out to be.

This is where we share common ground.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

I can also add that Stefan being seen as the "good brother" in the fandom and with the writers is why some of the things that he does immorally wrong gets over looked. Such as what he forced Jeremy through when he has trying to find the cure for Elena and did some harsh things with Jeremy that Elena wouldn't have liked or wanted him to do. A situation in which I believe would be brought up and mentioned more if Damon has been the one to do that to Jeremy, but the Damon's mistreatment of Jeremy gets more focus.

And if Damon had put Jeremy through the same torture situation against Elena's wishes, then it would be used as another reason for why Damon doesn't respect Elena's choices. But, Stefan is able to get by without having his mistreatment of Jeremy mentioned much.

Also does any Stefan fan or anyone who likes Stefan over Damon and who points out the fact that Damon turned Abby to make it seem like Damon is worse, really believe that Stefan would let Elena die and that he wouldn't have turned Abby if he had to. The brother's flipped a coin so Stefan was still in on it.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

No, Stefan would not have let Elena die, o actually do not blame Damon for said situation. Still blame Elijah to this day. That whole situation was put in motion by Elijah's choice, Stefan and Damon reacted.

Also, Stefan didn't torture Jeremy, he scared/forced him into killing a vampire to find a cure. Which obviously wasn't right but it wasn't torture. What Bill did to Caroline is torture. Damon's treatment of Jeremy gets more flack because A: Damon has tried to kill him twice and HAS successfully killed him once, before Elena touched the guy. B: because Stefan saved Jeremy like three or 4 times. I don't even know if Damon's saved him once but you can correct me if I'm wrong.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Damon has tried to kill him twice and HAS successfully killed him once, before Elena touched the guy.

Actually Damon tried to kill Jer once... which was a horrific thing to do. Stefan showed that he had an equal amount of disregard for Jers life when he had an agenda of his own.
But why quibble?

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

And I still say that if Damon would have done the same to Jeremy for the cure that he would have gotten bashed for it, especially if Elena didn't want him to do it. Elena wouldn't have and didn't want Stefan putting Jeremy through that. Stefan did if for Elena, but Damon has always gotten bashed for going against Elena's wishes in what he thought was protecting her. Damon deserves to get call out for his mistreatment of Jeremy, but Stefan mistreated Jeremy under the excuse of trying to do it for Elena.

The brother's shouldn't get a free pass from hurting everyone else under the state of doing it for Elena and her well being. They still should face up to consequences and not be completely excused from them. Whether or not it was Elijah they still turned Abby and hurt Bonnie.

The whole point is that when it comes down to it, Stefan is not that much more saintly/moral over Damon like people make it out to be. He'll even resort to mistreating Elena's brother or friends if he believes that it is best for her. Crossing moral lines like Damon does when he believes that he knows what's best for her.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

She told him to quit in the same episode and he did. He didn't disregard what she said. And Stefan does get hate for what he did to Jeremy among other things. The topic of discussion was Damon, how convientley it has been turned to Stefan again, even as I actually agree with you about Damon.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

The topic includes Stefan, because the discussion is about how the writers whitewash Damon's wrongdoings and gloss over them and turn him into a hero. It's also about how some Damon fans whitewash his rape of Caroline and use the writers glossing over the rape to do so.

The writers make Stefan the hero and make him out to be the good brother despite all of the people that he has hurt, killed and abused and the immoral things that he has done. Again in Season 7 they wrote out Damon to be the bad brother, not allowing the Salvatore relationship to grow and move on and Stefan got to complain about how awful Damon is, despite the mistakes that he himself made such as getting him and Damon locked in the stone.

Like they use Damon's "vampire nature" to try and explain about the Caroline situation. They use Stefan being the ripper and addicted to blood, as a way to keep him from being held fully accountable and at fault for the mass murders that he committed in his ripper stage. As well as he abused and used women for his wants and needs in his ripper stage (whether or not some believe that rape was a part of that). He still abused the women, feeding from them and then viciously killing some of them.

His ripperness used to defend him and bring up why Damon's reasons for killing are worse than Stefan's.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Because that his character, he's written as out of mind because he in fact IS the good brother of the two. In S7 he admits he got him and Damon stuck in the stone and his even checked on it by Bonnie herself to which he stands silent because he is in fact wrong.

The topic does not need to include Stefan because it is about Damon. Idk how you think that inludes Stefan.

Just because Damon once in a while calls him a hero(half of the time being sacarstic) does not mean the show props him higher.

Look at the crap that somehow Penny's death is Stefan's fault this season, to the point that Matt takes 0 blame for Stefan/Caroline/Damon's situation post Rayna jail-break. Apparently Stefan was also supposed to take on The Heretics with just him, Caroline and Matt. To which his deal that saved the human population in Mystic Falls is looked down on because Damon isn't living in his house. Stefan's also to blame for being scarred by Rayna and taking off (albeit not telling Caroline) but her and Alaric are actually furious that he took off period by him and Stefan's bar discussion. Stefan's also blamed for going after Julian period like the guy had never done anything to him before, even though he killed his kid. He's also blamed for not literally coddling Caroline after she reveals she's pregnant and taking off to kill Julian in their limited window even though he assures her they'll talk when he returns. He's also been called and idiot on these boards for forgiving Lily.

I'm not disagreeing that the size of the margin of Stefan and Damon's atrocities isn't that huge, but there is indeed, a margin. This has been a constant battle of "Damon's meant to be bad and complex so he's way more interesting than Saint Stefan" but then gets changed to "Stefan's worse than Damon".

Stefan's get his share of blame from from fans, as does Damon. The show in fact differs. Stefan's not allowed to feel too guilty, then he's whiny, he's not allowed to not care, then he's just like Damon, he's not allowed to be the hero or its pandering, he's not allowed to bad or its unfair to Damon. There is no right with you guys.

I'm not a big Caroline fan, I'm not a Damon hater, I mostly like S6 Damon. I liked the end of S1 Damon, I thought he would've been the best character this show would produce when they had him apologize to Jeremy. I was wrong.

Stefan is brought up as deflection, because he is Damon's former romantic rival. I find it strange how Enzo hasn't been brought up for getting Damon's treatment? Because he wasn't in a love triangle with Delena.

I'm not much of a shipper, I liked Stefan and Elena, they weren't the greatest thing I ever seen, I liked the heat of S1-3 Delena, just like I liked Steferines heat, I never favored this show for The S/D/E triangle, I've always paid more attention to The Salvatore Brothers. The last relationship I truly tuned in to see was Forwood, I don't really like Steroline, if it was my choice Stefan and Bonnie would be together. Their stuff in S1 still beats anything Steroline or knockoff Stelena. Definitely puts Bonenzo to shame but aye.

I have a problem with how this story structure works, not how it affects the real world, not how it effects viewers.

I'm also a straight male, and have no sexual bias towards Paul Wesley or Ian Somerhalder, I like both actors and their directorial work is ace.

I'm simply a fan who will not bend from this standpoint, Stefan and Damon Salvatore are not Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne, nor do I expect to be, my main difference is one tries and one rarely if ever tries. Mainly for this reason, I will find Stefan the BETTER, yes better person/brother over Damon.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Spellcheck screwed with me hard on my phone.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

But, I'll never really agree with that good brother/bad brother thing, because I see them both as flawed and problematic, who have done wrong and immoral things that can't and shouldn't be excused. A Stefan fan actually calling him "unproblematic", some just need to admit that male character that they are a fan of on TVD is problematic and that they are murderers and have hurt/abused people.

The problem lies with any fan of any of the male characters who try to whitewash their actions and try to blame anyone except for their fave male character for their wrongdoings and not want they fave to be held fully accountable and at fault for their actions.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

I agree with your second point, to your first point I just find one better than the other.

[–] forksforrests 8 years ago

Even if Stefan is accepted as flawed/problematic, Damon is just straight up evil and a villain. The things he does constantly and consistently are on par with the things that the villains of TVD have done, yet he is never treated like one and is always 'forgiven'.

Also, Stefan carries the weight of his sins around. I will give you that he had a disregard for Jeremy's life (which I found OOC, bc in seasons 1-2, he was shown to care greatly for everyone in Elena's life), but Damon outright murdered Jeremy so idgaf about the comparisons. Damon isn't just disregarding, he's hostile and destructive. He doesn't even need a reason. In Stefan's case, he was using Jeremy to help save Elena. Damon was just pissed off at whatever tf, and he killed Jeremy on a whim.

A rose is just a rose.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Because that his character, he's written as out of mind because he in fact IS the good brother of the two

And there you have it folks.......it's no wonder some are shocked when the opposite is canonised and they are left with egg on their faces. There is something called subtext, it exists throughout the show...although it was better depicted in the earlier seasons. This show is far from complex but it isn't written to be taken at face value....hence all the stuff that contradicts Stefan in the narrative.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

I'm not a big Caroline fan, I'm not a Damon hater, I mostly like S6 Damon. I liked the end of S1 Damon, I thought he would've been the best character this show would produce when they had him apologize to Jeremy. I was wrong.

I agree with you regarding this scene. It had depth and Damon did not seem like a caricature of himself, like he is oft portrayed in later seasons. This was a time the viewer really cared about the core characters. Granted, it was fresh and new, but there was something more authentic about it all. I still think Damon is the best character, but there is no doubt they did not develop his full potential. They failed Stefan also.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

This thread was started because the OP wondered how Damon gets away with a lot of things, onscreen

The problem some posters are having is the title of the thread, and that is basically why this is a huge thread because it isn't a legitimate complaint of the show to have one single character named as shamed as having "got away" with awful stuff.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] mymammakat 8 years ago

No! Wrong! How is his being a lunatic Damons fault? How is Kai's escape from 1992 Damons fault? The rest wouldn't have happened
If Kai hadn't escaped the first time. He didn't rashly go after Lily, and how is it his fault that she was bat sh** crazy? He went after her to save Stefan from ripping his way through campus.
Really! It's his fault that Kai killed the coven and his twin who was carrying twins tthat could someday rule the coven?! Maybe that was Ricks fault for getting Jo pregnant, Rick haters would love that but I don't think there are any.
As far as the tomb vamps go, yes, he made that happen BUT Anna was already in town trying to do that very thing before Damon even came back to Mystic Falls. He didn't cause her to be there. And by the way, not all the tomb vamps were evil, just sayin. Actually it's the original founders fault. If they hadn't tried to burn all the vamps to death in the first place, they wouldn't have been in the tomb and looking for revenge when they got out.
As far as why Katherine came back when she did, it sure wasn't Damons tomb vamp escapade, it was because she wanted the moon stone to use as leverage with Klaus. That's why she came back with Mason, not because of Damon. When she came back she discovered Elena.
Yes, Lexi's lover did nab Elena briefly, his real target being Damon, Ill give you that one. Damon killing Lexi was soooo wrong!!
How is Isobel Damons fault? Because he gave her her wish to be a vamp?
Rick came in search of answers. Isobel left him, how is that Damons fault? Even Rick doesn't blame Damon.
Damon attacking Bonnie was Emily's fault, she told Damon Katherine was in the tomb giving him hope for what he thought was getting his true love back and when the 150 yrs was up she blew up the only way he had to get her out.. while possessing Bonnie body. What self respecting vamp wouldn't flip out.
The travelers came for doppelgänger blood, how is that Damons fault? Like they would have ever given up without a fight anyway.
Damon left Enzo to burn because he couldn't save him!!! Why does no one get that!! He couldn't leave him there without turning off his humanity. What was he supposed to do, die with him? Don't answer that, lol
Elena's mind wipe, really? You can't be serious! She loved him, Vampires love more deeply! An eternity without him was too much to bear!! So blame Damon, ugh. If you need to blame someone for that how bout Luke's drugs and Stefans giving up, he was her last hope.
Lastly, Elenas "virtues" were in tact when said goodbye to all her friends and the love of her life.

We're all on our way out, act accordingly.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

there were some especially sweet ones when Stefan wasn't around to do it and Elena desperately needed taking care of. But for the most part, he's the problem that needs solving.

You have a point, and I agree with it to some extent but there is always a thread that can be pulled out far enough to the point that it suits a POV. For example, it could be argued that the events in 1864 that resulted in Damon and Stefan being turned into vampires started with Stefan.....scroll back even further and the catalyst was Katherine....scroll back further and it's Klaus....scroll back further and it's Esther.
They have all been embroiled in the supernatural world, some of them against their will and for the most part they are dealing and managing the hand that they were dealt.

I think we can all agree that Damon's mistrust in Elijah, his Elixer and his honor were proven to be justified.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

I've seen you bravely make your case throughout these discussions awesomebamon. I respect that you don't agree with me on this issue. It is your right and I've noticed you do not condemn personally those with other views. I understand a lot of the arguments. I also agree with a lot of what you've posted.

I can take their tag-team mean girl act, but I felt it necessary to point out that first they put words in someone's mouth that were inaccurate, then actually tried to shame her for their own assumptions. It seems when it was pointed out this person did not say she was raped, all was well. That is very backwards. So they were comfortable berating someone they believed to have been raped, after having bloviated so vehemently regarding the subject as defenders of all things female? Makes no sense. It seems the person wronged is a tough little cookie and holds her own, but these people are toxic. I see either that angriest one deleted her own post or it was deleted by an administrator. You are right - should not be taken seriously.

So sorry you yourself have been attacked by these posters, but enough about them. Out of our hair! So, I am curious. What are you hoping for most in season 8 regarding Horrible Damon or beautiful Bonnie? Bonnie is really at the top of my list as one of my favorites. She has been the classiest act in all of Mystic Falls.

[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

What I would like for Bonnie is for the writers to stop putting her through pain and allow her to actually be happy for more than a couple of episodes. Allow her to keep her magic and be a powerful witch. And end the series alive and well and not kill her off to bring Elena back.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Sacrosanctme 8 years ago

That is not too much to ask! I would love to see Bonnie strong and badass, and yes, happy for more than two seconds. Wasn't it painful when she ran to Elena's house expecting to see Damon and Elena there and found nothing? Enough is enough. Bonnie has been the character on the show with the most heart and warmth. I cannot feel sorry for this character, because I respect her too much and to feel sorry for her doesn't give her the due she deserves. I feel sorry for all that has happened. It's definitely time to give her a break. Let's dare to hope...

[–] mymammakat 8 years ago

Damon never raped anybody, He did some pretty horrific things, rape is not one of them. Yes he killed Jeremy and technically Vicki, if you don't count the turning her into a vampire part, Stefan actually removed Vicki from existence. Was he nice to Elena, well yes, I believe risking your own life to save someone else's over and over does qualify as "nice".

We're all on our way out, act accordingly.

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Stefan was only nice to Elena when she was his GF. When she wasn't he showed his true colours. You know Stefan did some very manipulative things to the women on this show, and the one that comes to mind is using and manipulating a womans feelings to get what he wants, including sleeping with them or using a faux attraction. Rebekah is the first person that comes to mind here. I mean Stefan literally helped Klaus to stab her in the back..where was her vengeance? There was none, she slept with him instead. She was happy to literally want to kill Elena when she did it, or torture Damon for conning her into bed. Another example of Stefan the teflon man.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] lyrahowl-01933 8 years ago

I was about 14 when I watched the show and yes, it was because of Ian Somerholder, whom I remembered from Lost and found insanely hawt at that time.

But I've always viewed Damon as a villain. Entertaining? Sure. Possible to sympathize with? Yep, from time to time. Attractive? Hell yes. But as soon as he and Elena hooked up and he became everyone's best friend I lost all interest in the show. It was just lame and made all characters look like idiots. Also, the other villains, except Katherine, didn't quite hit the mark.

Or maybe I just grew up and saw how ridiculous the whole thing is.

[–] HP_HG_Fan 8 years ago

That's definitely a possibility. I think that's what happened to me; haven't even watch the majority of Seasons 6 and 7.

S.P.E.R.M member 270

[–] orgine 8 years ago

But I've always viewed Damon as a villain. Entertaining? Sure. Possible to sympathize with? Yep, from time to time. Attractive? Hell yes. But as soon as he and Elena hooked up and he became everyone's best friend I lost all interest in the show. It was just lame and made all characters look like idiots. Also, the other villains, except Katherine, didn't quite hit the mark.

Well said. I enjoyed Damon the most when the show wasn't pretending that he was anything but a villain.

[–] forksforrests 8 years ago

I never liked Damon but I liked the show the most when they weren't pretending he was in some grey area or that his reasons for being a sh-tty person were justified.

But I've always wondered; how would Damon and Elena have come together? IMO, it was always OOC to have Elena seek out Damon, but the vampire storyline gave them a chance to start Delena. Except to keep Damon the same way, they'd have to have Elena be more accepting and even supportive of his morally shady ways. They couldn't have that because she was the show's heroine, even in her vampire form; she was the anti-Katherine. So, they pretended to dial Damon down, while still letting him carry on in his evil ways but just not calling him out for any of it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the show didn't really have many options if they wanted to put Delena together long-term, so they ended up on the route we're on and it severely compromised the writing. Delena worked better as the will-they-won't-they couple that have a brief fling, maybe while Elena's a vampire, but then realize they're too much at odds to continue on LT. She turns back into a human, they part ways and Damon eventually moves on. OR, Elena faces the fact that she is no different from Katherine, Damon stays Damon, and Vampire Elena and Damon converge in some grey area of morals but they are upfront about their lack of morality like Katherine is. Instead, the writers tried to dab into both scenarios and they ended up with a mess.

A rose is just a rose.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

I love your analysis. Unfortunately, the showrunners didn't have the maturity or courage or both to write either of these scenarios you provided. Really, those were the only 2 ways available if they were so determined to explore the Delena dynamic. Alas.

[–] Tajiko 8 years ago

Great analysis there!

I don't like the idea that they had to stick to Elena being "good" because she's the heroine, it's because of these unwritten rules stereotypes are overused to stay safe. I for one actually enjoyed the beginning of Elena's accepting her vampirism and Damon being a big part of that because in my opinion Damon was more stable than Stefan. His whole speech about learning to live on the edge hit right home. Instead of giving the cure to Elena, who didn't want to be a vampire but seemed to learn to accept it with Damon's help, they should have given the cure to Damon who absolutely wouldn't want to become human again. That would have set up for a more interesting scenario and balanced their potential relationship.

[–] orgine 8 years ago

In the books, the cure went to Damon and it was interesting reading the most vampiric of vampires deal with being human again. Too bad, the show chose to fix what was not broken.

[–] forksforrests 8 years ago

I've probably replied to this before, lol, but amen.

There's absolutely nothing I like about Damon. Nothing. Normally when there's a "bad boy" character in a show (Spike, Eric, Jess, Sawyer, Logan Echolls), there's always something I can find to like about them. Their humor, their loyalty, their love for whatever significant other.

But Damon is just a destructive POS who makes everyone around him worse. His 'love' for Elena is unhealthy for both him and Elena. Why would Elena want to drag someone around who only does 'good' things to make her happy? That's the opposite of who she is as a person.

Not to mention his relationship with Stefan is just bloody awful. Stefan needs to ditch his brother and change his last name.

None of this damn show makes any sense.

A rose is just a rose.

[–] xnerx 8 years ago

absolutely +1 to everything.

this is my post from last week and it's pretty much the same thing.

because damon is a stupid retard, but someone anyhow always wants to save him and other similar *beep* he even GETS the girl, even tho he's done nothing good in his entire life. even as a human, he wanted his brother's girl...

I mean seriously, would anyone in real life want him as a friend or anything? I don't think so.

but hey... this show has so poor writers that I can't believe it got to eight seasons in the end.

[–] forksforrests 8 years ago

Yeah, it seriously pisses me off that at the end of TVD, after all we have seen, Damon will definitely end up getting the girl. Why? How the hell has he earned that right? He's basically been on a downward spiral since Elena died. He was almost ALWAYS awful when she was alive. He killed Jeremy multiple times, treated Bonnie AND Caroline like dirt, and stole the love of his brother's life without so much as an apology (i blame Elena too, but Damon is the worst).

What gets me is that this horribly negative ending is after we had three seasons of perfectly healthy and *good* relationships that would actually have made sense to end on. Stefan and Elena were a good relationship. Now, I'm fine with Elena dating Damon as a vampire to get that sh-t out of her system, but then she became a human again and still wanted Damon? No, thanks.

Also, Caroline and Tyler were another really healthy relationship (until the whole Klaus interruption) and they would have made sense as endgame too. Instead we have the writers backtracking and haphazardly gluing these two together.

Honestly, I'm pissed this show didn't just end in like season 3, because that was the last great season in my eyes.

A rose is just a rose.

[–] nunyabiznesskay 8 years ago

yep. There are moments, all-in-all I like him for who he is, and although he can be intriguing at times, and admirable for his drive and persistence he's still a Villain.