Damon is horrible - The Vampire Diaries (2009) Discussion

[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

Damon is like Donald Trump. No matter what he does, no matter how hypocritical, illogical, stupid, dangerous or insane he is people will be like "but he's so great and he and Elena are sooo cute." It is called delusion and it is strong in this country.

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[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Such a silly sweeping statement.
There is a world of difference between enjoying and supporting a fictional character and politics in the real world.
I'm not American, so I have no voice in American politics but I would not trust that man to run a childs tea party never mind one of the most powerful countries in the world.
That said I wouldn't trust Damon either.....but he isn't running for president :)

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

Obviously I was being facetious. Christ.

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[–] orgine 8 years ago

I know you're being facetious but I think there's a strong element of truth in that. America is a very problematic country and it's never been as glaring as this year, with this present elections. It does explain why a rapist like Damon, remains so beloved to the point of fanaticism. Isn't the racism in TVD - casual violence/murder of every poc on the show - a metaphor for the extrajudicial murders of black people in the States? And the vitriol Hillary Clinton seems to inspire for being competent and existing is the grown-up version of the misogyny of the TVD fandom. I don't think it's too far-fetched to say that TVD is a metaphor of everything wrong with this country.

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[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

There are definitely elements of truth, and I actually wrote that post after reading someone trying to defend Donald Trump's racist comments and actions in much the same way Damon is defended. You can present objective evidence of how absolutely awful he is, and people will always find ways to deflect or defend him.

Obviously, this is TVD and there isn't the same type of consequence to defending him (and I dont want to make light of Donald Trump, like, he is truly terrifying). But, it is one thing to be totally entertained by the bad boy and like watching him, I love Kai and Klaus for this reason, but it is entirely different to defend his actions and justify his behavior.

I also did note the parallels with Hillary. As you say, the women in TVD are much maligned, particularly in relation to the men, despite the fact that not one damn woman at that show has ever done anything remotely approaching what Damon (and Stefan. And Klaus.) have done. And TVD absolutely untintentionally or not speaks to the bias against POC, they continue to be killed and everyone is just like "ok yeah, let's get back to the story."

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

This is true off some Stans of all of the male characters of the TVD fandom. And I have seen people go out of their way to defend them all, while bashing the woman characters. Elena got blamed for Damon snapping Jeremy's neck. And Bonnie gets blamed for Kai's actions. Some are willing to give the men the benefit of the doubt and have empathy for them by bringing up how they had a bad child hood, or how they are heartbroken and in pain to explain away and excuse all of their wrong doings.

While what the women characters do all less forgiven and they are judged more harshly. Doesn't matter how much pain that the women characters have gone through, they are just expected to suck in up and not ever get upset or angry.

Even when the male characters are in the wrong, their stans will find some reason to feel sorry for them or see them as the victim in some way.

Lots of fans in the TVD fandom don't know how to Stan for problematic male characters, without trying to excuse or white wash their wrong doings.

As a Damon fan when he is wrong he is wrong. Don't try to excuse why he did what he did, in order to somehow make his actions more acceptable. Some think that manpain or a bad child hood are suppose to make their actions more acceptable or understandable.

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[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

Totally. I know many of the TVD fans are very young and their opinions might change, but it makes me sad that the default is always to defend and excuse men, even at a young age.

I also really find myself wishing this show, particularly with 2 women at the helm, had done better by their female characters. Particularly when Julie is all up on twitter with her "feminist" ass.

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[–] orgine 8 years ago

I think there's a difference between being entertained by problematic male characters and finding them interesting to watch and even lowkey root for.... and pretending that problematic male characters are innocent of what they've been accused of. I mean, if no one found villains entertaining, we'd still be stuck in the age of watching morality plays in Sunday school.

But there's a difference, between saying 'Stefan turned ripper --- but under these specific set of circumstances that mitigate his actions (e.g. saving his brother's life)' or 'Kai stabbed Bonnie because he wanted to escape from his Prison World'... while Damon fans will say things like 'no, Damon is not a rapist.'

Neither is ideal but the Damon-example is what I mean when I talk about delusional fans being a worrying metaphor for the present Trump crisis. Where you literally can't accept that a favourite character has done anything wrong in the first place. Where the actor declaring that yes, he played a rapist is still not enough to ... see reason.

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[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Totally. I know many of the TVD fans are very young and their opinions might change, but it makes me sad that the default is always to defend and excuse men, even at a young age.

How condescending considering the lead female character(Elena) is often a target for hate and ridicule for making her own choices and being empowered enough to fight and kill for those she loves. Elena has flaws and strengths but is often talked about in a really derogatory manner because she had sex with the MALE leads brother. Like this is worse than being used as pawn in a game of chicken in a willy waving competition between two MALE characters, where she was abused and scared out of her mind. Stefan was a dick to Elena, jeremy etc throughout S3 and S4 but it's Elena who gets the hate for sleeping with Damon.

Just my observations from this board.

However, I have to agree that in general the writing for the women on this show overall is not great.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

This, 100%!

Thank you for mentioning Klaus. I still get confused at those that justified Carol's death, by saying it was Tyler's fault. Yeah, because people totally want to be enslaved to a psychopath for the rest of their lives, why would they want to be free?

I won't even get started on either brother, there's no point. They could murder the world and still be loved.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

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[–] UseYourHeart 8 years ago

I'm sorry, but did you use "Hillary Clinton" and "competent" in the same sentence?

You wanna take this outside?

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[–] Dogandathermos 8 years ago

Wait, racism and Hilary's competency?? Fine, yes, there's some misogyny where Damon is concerned and the writers have answered to it when rape comes up, so I won't be repetitive. But I see no parallels with the other two as metaphors. I've got a bone of contention with Hilary haters thinking those supporting her, worship her. No, those supporting her hate Trump. MANY of which *were* supporting Bernie. NOW, we're out of options. It's a lesser-of-two-evils election at this point.

Black Lives Matter is a movement. Not an across-the-board reality. Are there still unspoken racisms in this country? Absolutely. Do all black deaths in this country go unanswered for? Hell no. What about when it's at the hands of cops? Well, the scales for those are tipped toward criminals. Not necessarily ones in the midst of a crime deserving a bullet or choke hold, THAT *was* racism. However, the media sensationalizes everything and the reality is hard to see through the lens of them and a frenzied movement. ALL lives matter. Cops shouldn't be hurting people who aren't posing any dangers, criminals should act higher than the law, Black people shouldn't be oppressed by profiling. Period.

OK, so what exactly made you connect that (or other racism) with TVD???? Because the only time race is even noticeable on that show is with the witches. Which happens to be 1. for continuity and 2. awesome. The bar is set quite high for them beginning in season one, with what Stefan says to Bonnie at dinner, making her glow with pride. Further, there's not people of "minority" (when is THAT word gonna be changed??) races behaving in stereo typical ways.

You're looking very heavily about a show that wasn't meant for such depths. Not at all. When they are, it's called into question by astute critics/press and show runners happily answer to it. Such question/answer hasn't taken place (in any public forums) and Julie/Kevin have never volunteered any such things up. There is simply nothing on TVD serving as a metaphor for "the demons of the day." It's pure fantasy.

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[–] orgine 8 years ago

Every single black person that comes on this show dies violently within a few episodes of appearing. Yes, even Bonnie dies repeatedly (and should have been killed off for real in s5 according to Julie). As you pointed out - witches were all black as long as they were subservient to vampires; but the moment Julie started writing witches with agency (Esther Mikaelson, the Gemini coven), they became white. Then where do we start with Bonnie - the only non-white character in the main cast? She's a character straight out of the books, and the most important character after Elena and the Salvatore brothers, becoming a PoV character in book 4. But you won't tell it from the books. Her most defining character trait is her ability to sacrifice her life for her friends - something she's done repeatedly over the seasons. But she's not praised or appreciated for it, most of the time it's taken completely for granted. She's the only character, male or female, to have been cheated on during the duration of the tv season. Her love life is non-existent and has even become a lampshading-hanging punchline in the show.

People aren't looking at the show for depths - it's more that the racial inbalances, the racial... offensiveness of the show are so blatant, so obvious, that's impossible not to see them, no matter how hard you'd like not to.

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[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

Praised or appreciated? That's funny, especially when Bonnie wasn't even considered "important" until she befriended Damon, these were Plec's words.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

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[–] Dogandathermos 8 years ago

"Lampshade hanging device.." BAHAHAHA! Oh man. Totally, you're right about *everything* you've said about Bonnie's importance and her relevance. I've written numerous articles commenting on and exploring it. The part that I'm still struggling to feel you on is her race. Specifically, what Bonnie's being Black has to do with how her character is SHOWN as Extremely powerful and essential and then is taken for granted and treated disposibly.

For one, you can't take it Too, too much to heart that Julie made some side-mouth mention of Bonnie narrowly escaping a permanent death at the end of season 5. Because firstly, Damon was ALWAYS going with her. That prison world story line with the both of them was long-standing and absolute. Or are you referring to when she was "about to" kill herself over there? Here's the thing: there's always loads of back and forth, brainstorming and revamping *seewhatididthere* of scripts. Julie may have felt at one point that Bonnie story had really been told by then, and because Julie was brainwashed or bullied by Dries--who is utterly incapable of writing for the ensemble--she forgot for a minute that you don't just send an OG packing. It would have been something she was absently thinking In Theory, but it was never gonna jive with the bigger picture. Bonnie HAD to come back from that prison world because Kai had to come back (twice) to first ask her to be his boo and later to enact his revenge. Julie knew Nina wasn't coming back faaaaar longer than we did and way sooner than she publicly admitted to. Meaning, they were working on the Elena/Bonnie sleeping spell storyline for quite some time. And because Nina was never coming back (other than for *maybe* the series finale), Bonnie became the most secure character. Don't forget, when they wrote that in, TVD had not yet been canceled. It was however, Kat Graham who called season 8 her last, prior to cancelation.

Now as for black witches not lasting long, that's debatable. For one, it's witches Period, who do not always survive. They've covered that in exposition between Bonnie and Grams and then Bonnie telling Jeremy (about a witches purpose). But then they're external, ruling the worlds beyond this one. And as seen on both TVD and heavily on TO, witches who've been consecrated can and do return. There is were plenty of witches who didn't get killed off like nothing. Off the top of my head, Bree died in one ep., but that was because she did something rather shady (yes, there's tons more to it, I'm just stating cause and effect). Gloria got lots of screen time and had been around for ages. Lucy appeared in 2 and apparently died off-screen Btwn 6 & 7. I dunno, so much of it is merely about storylines and plots, these were never key characters. No one but Grams. And she was around for 5 seasons. Also! You know what? I think we could see her again. She "found peace," remember? Well, Julie said we're going to see what happens in death during 8. I know Sherrif Forbes is booked, so I'm assuming she's one spirit. But if they were able to get Jasmine, I'd expect to see Sheila.

Back to your feelings about witches being Black as something racist- can you help me to better understand what you mean? It reads like you are very sensitive to all that you've stated and perhaps that's because you're closer to it than I (notsobasic white*ish* girl here). But sometimes, for me anyway, we get overly defensive/HYPERsentitive when we're too subjective. I just don't see what's racist about having the Black witch continuity. I suppose they should have stopped with the Bennet's and their relatives. But they did have white witches too, like the entire Gemini coven. And some of the 12 witches that tried to brain scramble Bonnie. ALL of those witches met a brutal demise. Esther was different. She's an Orginal and they are all a royal pain to keep buried. She was also a crazy bitch who got no love on the screen. Nor did her wicked sister of the North. Plenty of the white witches on TO fared quite porely, and none enjoyed special treatment. Bunch of crazy bitches over there as well. Hell, even sweet little Devina was horribly brutalized. And you wanna talk about a witch being used, absused and treated like an AI instead of a love-starved, faithful family worshiper in dire need of recognition, a voice, a night off from babysitting and/or a Scooby Snack? What About Freaking FREYA OmG and ah-Hem! ;-)

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[–] orgine 8 years ago

Well Julie said this between the end of season 6 and the start of season 7 in a random twitter conversation in reply to a bunch of Delena fans that were wondering why Bonnie hadn't died a long time ago. Julie said Bonnie was planned to die in the season 5 finale but Kat Graham came up with some ideas of where the character so Bonnie stayed and Julie never regretted it.

Damon was supposed to go to the Prison world alone. You're absolutely right that stories are organic and what we have now has long evolved from whatever was on the drawing board in the beginning. But there are 2 things to consider: 1) Julie's statement which was apropos of nothing and really extremely uncharitable to Kat Graham. (Kat coming up with ideas for Bonnie translates to Kat asking Julie to let her keep her job.) 2) Grams told Bonnie she'd pulled some strings to make sure Bonnie found "peace" when the Other Side collapsed. There's really nothing in the Prison World storyline that follows through Grams's statement. In fact considering that in the Prison World she ends up meeting Kai - the guy that gives her "ptsd" (::rolls eyes::) and ends up linking her life to her best friend and putting Bonnie's life on perpetual ransom to Elena's - there's nothing in the least "peaceful" about her experience in the Prison World. The only thing that makes sense is that that was supposed to be Bonnie's swan song and Grams was reassuring the audience that Bonnie would go to "heaven", not the hellish Oblivion that Katherine and Markos and Vicky and others had got sucked into.

The witches being black AND being subservient to vampires is the disturbing trend. Up until the introduction of Esther Mikaelson, almost every witch in TVD was black and worked for a vampire. Bonnie for her "friends"; Emily for Katherine; Lucy Bennett for Katherine; the Martin men for Elijah; Freya Martin for Klaus; the witch who died of Expression magic in season 4; the witch that worked for Klaus that Katherine killed in season 3. What's important here isn't just that witches were black --- it's that they never owned their own power. Theoretically, witches are the most powerful beings in this story - but they're never shown to act on their own agendas, or even have their own agendas. They were always... Reinfields to some vampire. The first time we see a powerful witch who has her own deal --- it's Esther Mikaelson, who's white. Then we meet the Gemini who have their coven, and do their own thing and are in their own war with the Travellers with the vampires and doppelgangers more collateral damage to this war than the other way around --- and all these witches are white.

Even Questiyah, Bonnie's own ancestor, doesn't get to be black. Fine, she's not a White witch, but it's telling that the matriarch of the Bennett line, a powerful (slightly crazy) witch that has her own agenda and is the ally of no one but her own self isn't the same race as everyone else in the Bennett line (Bonnie, Emily, Lucy, Sheila Ayanna, whoever did the Hunters spell). It's almost as if the idea of a Black witch being the representation of all that powerful was so incomprehensible that they literally needed to change the race of these witches.

Yes, the Gemini died - but they pretty much self-destructed. What's important is that they weren't collateral damage in a vampire's war; they weren't murdered by vampires or died over-expending themselves doing magic for vampires. It was their own civil war, so to speak, that brought about their demise.
Everytime Bonnie dies it's because she's doing vampire work.
Abby Bennett gets turned by Damon for Elijah.
Emily was betrayed by Katherine.
Lucy Bennett even gets murdered off-screen by the Armoury.
Sheila dies after doing vampire's work.
Gina Torres gets murdered by Damon for conniving with Lexi's vampire lover to kill him - but the vampire lover gets spared.
Freya is killed doing Klaus's work by Stefan/Jenna.
The 12 witches that tried to de-Expression Bonnie got murdered by Caroline. They were a mixed bunch but the most prominent one was a black witch. They were about the only set of black witches on this show who had an independent agenda (stop Silas from coming out) but then again, the whole Cure/Silas storyline was a vampire plot, wasn't it?

ad nauseum.

None of these black witches would have died if they were simply minding their own business. Throw into the fact that one of the first witches we see after Bonnie and Sheila is Emily Bennett - and she's a slave to Katherine Pierce. This is a show set in Virginia, and they even regularly do Confederacy/Civil War re-enactments to remind us of that state's sordid slave history. Now with that as a backdrop, put Bonnie - and every other black witch - that is beholden to a white vampire against that.

As for TO, Davina Claire is basically the Bonnie of the show. yes, she does die violently but before that? She is a powerful witch who gets to own her agenda. She breaks out of Marcus's control (WITHOUT losing his friendship/loyalty) and starts using her power for herself. Several times her agenda clashes with the Originals but she's never punished or suffers for it because unlike Bonnie, she has an army of powerful friends who are willing to fight for her. Even when she eventually dies, it's the witches who punish her - not Klaus or someone else finally snapping her neck for getting in his way one too many times.

Of course, I am hyper-sensitive. Why won't I be? When you're constantly faced with representations of people who look like you being virtual slaves or brutally murdered and not one of them getting to "win" ever.... won't you be hyper-sensitive? If you were watching a show where everytime you see a white girl, you say 'dead woman walking' and you're proven right, every single time... won't YOU be hyper-sensitive too?

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[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

Very well said, I'll probably link this post the next time this conversation comes up. The Tessa stuff was really telling and rubbed me the wrong way. I did like the actress, but they really should have cast a black actress. And I think it should have been obvious to everyone why that should be the case.

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[–] orgine 8 years ago

Thank you. I know my post could have been more coherent - I'm sure a lot of people have analysed this better but there you have it... And yeah, there's no logical reason why after seeing every single Bennett witch being Black, even in the most improbably circumstances like Ayanna during the "Viking immigration" - the matriarch of that bloodline should have been anybody BUT a Black woman.

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[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

Very, very well said.

I also remember that Julie said that Kat had to truly convince her that Bonnie's story wasn't over. Yeah, she wanted Bonnie gone.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

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[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Damon is like Donald Trump. No matter what he does, no matter how hypocritical, illogical, stupid, dangerous or insane he is people will be like "but he's so great and he and Elena are sooo cute." It is called delusion and it is strong in this country.

Important to re-surrect this today.

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[–] lovelypiscesprincessfrom 8 years ago

Girl!!! I was just comparing him to Donald Trump and Kanye West. Literally people will watch them take a poop on the toilet and pretend they just spun gold. It's complete and utter delusion. There is no reasoning with people like this.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Pretty much Bonnie fans ship her with other guys who have hurt her as well. Such as Enzo/Kai/Klaus. Unless people can honestly say that they don't ship any of the woman characters on TVD with any of the male characters that have even been on TVD, then no one can say that they ship a problematic free TVD ship.

Also it's fine to not like Damon, but then some TVD fans of other male characters won't admit to stanning problematic characters while they bash Damon. Someone even said that Stefan is "unproblematic".

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[–] TearTheStarsOutFromTheSky 8 years ago

Every character on this show is problematic or at least was at one time. No one is an angel on this show.

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[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Exactly, but to some people like Christina, it's only those that enjoy, understand and support Damon that are somewhat delusional....? I just can't with that mentality even if is defended as being facetious. It is delusional to even link a fictional, fantasy show to politics and apply any kind of logic.

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[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

You can enjoy Damon and root for him, it's entirely another to defend his actions as if he is a good person. I am sorry you personally feel offended by this, but maybe examine your defense of Damon instead of repeating "you can't apply politics to shows" over and over without actually critiquing the argument. Nothing happens in a vacuum, these types of attitudes don't just exist in a fantasy world and suddenly stop when we talk about real life.

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[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Well said. I've mentioned at different times that the same thinking that lets people pretend that Damon didn't rape Caroline is the same thinking that let people like Brock Turner off for rape with little or no consequences.

Nothing happens in a vacuum, these types of attitudes don't just exist in a fantasy world and suddenly stop when we talk about real life.

Life imitates art far more than art imitates life, as the saying goes.

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[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

Yep, and what's so maddening is that Damon does the same thing to Andie seasons later!

I can give a little bit of leeway in shows like this where the writers go one direction with a character early in season 1, then realize they want to do something else and attempt to erase some of the unforgivable things the character has done. But Damon was always intended to be Elena's love interest and antihero of the story. And in season 1 they made him a rapist, a story they then continued in season 2 and 3. Other characters are guilty of this too, Isobel and Katherine spring to mind (can't remember if Stefan has done anything like this), but I think we can all agree their treatment in the show is very different than Damon's.

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[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Firstly, I have said repeatedly that Damon is a problematic character. My defense of Damon is rooted within the moral boundaries purported by the show and I compare his actions with others in the show within those boundaries. Damon's actions do not exist within a vaccuum either. There are sometimes mitigations, explanations etc, and sometimes things are indefensible, as they are for all of the characters.
I have no problem if you want to use TVD as a metaphor for politics, that's your perogative and one that I don't share, however, I have a problem when you infer that fans that enjoy a character on TV are likely to view politics in a certain way.....not true.

Nothing happens in a vacuum, these types of attitudes don't just exist in a fantasy world and suddenly stop when we talk about real life.

Most people can and do separate reality from fantasy, your comment tells me that you can't, therefore it's you who has the problem.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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[–] mymammakat 8 years ago

Thanks for saying what I was thinking in such a clear, precise and civil manner.
We're all on our way out, act accordingly.

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[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

Nothing happens in a vacuum, these types of attitudes don't just exist in a fantasy world and suddenly stop when we talk about real life.

And this too.

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[–] orgine 8 years ago

Bumping because I was just thinking of this and how important it is.

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[–] lovelypiscesprincessfrom 8 years ago

Okay!!! Like these are people going out to vote for men who are rapists and support racism. This is why not critiquing this stuff is a problem.

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[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

I agree, it's fine to not like a character. I really dislike Stefan, and I have heard just as many reaching arguments in his defense as I have for Klaus, Kai, Damon etc.
This is a show that on closer examination is full of deeply flawed, dark, problematic characters and problematic themes. I personally find it fascinating and entertaining for the most part ;)

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

I find that people believe to heavily in the good brother/bad brother thing between Damon and Stefan. Yes, Damon has done a lot of awful things. But, if you can back you can say that Stefan has done a lot of awful things too. Damon's treatment of Bonnie gets pointed out, but Stefan's is flawed too. I believe that he would have turned Abby if that was needed to save Elena. They had Damon do that because they needed to sell the good brother/bad brother thing.

And there was that time where Stefan went to Bonnie right after she was mourning and in pain and then Bonnie knew that Stefan had just gone there because he needed her help/magic for something. And when Stefan hurts and kills people in ripper mode, then him being a ripper is used to defend his actions.

Pretty much all of the male characters on TVD past and present are problematic and have done awful things and fans of them all have tried to defend their actions.

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Damn it I don't want to look like example A, but I'm going to defend both Salvatore Brothers for these specific occurrences.

Damon was forced to Turn Abby, or forced or in that position, it was turn Abby or Elena died. I do not blame him in this specific instance, this was not him lashing out, not his choice. The situation was forced upon him.

Stefan went to Bonnie for help not knowing what happened to her Grams. When she opens the door and he sees her face he comforts her first before anything, lets her tell him what happened, and attempts to leave before asking her for help. His favor was very small as well and only asked if she had recognized the Fives markings.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like they can do no wrong.

Stefan killing Andie = Wrong
Damon raping Caroline= Wrong

But, the females have gotten away with a lot as well, or at least Elena and Caroline have. Katherine is almost as praised as Damon and she essentially did to Stefan what Damon did to Caroline. Caroline turned her humanity off (BY CHOICE) knowing full well what could happen and essentially killed several people, released the Ripper, and soon as she returned got forgiven by Stefan, Elena, Tyler, and Matt. Bonnie also shares blame for the Heretics escaping. The show brings it up but only for a second. I'd say the males (Damon, Elijah, even John Gilbert) have gotten away with a lot more.

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

I'll also go ahead and state Stefan never turned into The Ripper willingly. And Bonnie I believe has never killed methodically besides Kai, who was then a sociopath.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

That's the problem that I have with the "For Elena" writing and Elena being put on a pedestal. It's one of the things of the writing that I do not agree with or go along with just because the writers want to push that Elena's life means so much more than everyone else's or that her feelings matter more than everyone else's.

Doesn't mean that the Salvatore's hurting people and killing in the name of saving Elena should be excused or be seen as okay. Especially with Bonnie, Elena is her friend but she had every right to be upset with Abby being turned and had a right to confront Damon about it. In the Salvatore brother's eyes Elena was the only one who mattered in the situation, but Abby was BOnnie's mother and important to her.

Just like when Elena tried to kill Bonnie twice in one night and Bonnie fights back and Stefan is like "she's your best friend". It doesn't mean that Bonnie has to give a pass to the things that Elena does or the things done in Elena's name that causes her pain and heartbreak. Like saying that Bonnie should treat everything in her life as meaningless, as long as Elena is safe and happy.

And Stefan may not have chosen to be the ripper, but doesn't mean that his murdering sprees should be completely excused. Anymore than the No humanity thing shouldn't completely excuse the people who vampires kill.

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

I'm not saying it excuses him, but makes a big difference that he doesn't choose to be that person and has to be forced to be so, unlike others on the show.

I'm not saying if they do it for Elena it makes it right, but I also don't see how I fault them for choosing to save the girl they're in love with over her best friends mother. Elena out first I. The writing because she is the leading lady. I don't see anyone faulting Bonnie for being upset about it, that perfectly fine, I'm just saying I don't blame them in that instance, I blame Elijah.

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[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

And this is the crux of the show. Everyone has their important people on their list. Some peoples' lists are longer than others but when push comes to shove, even the most righteous are willing to cross lines to save the people they love no matter who gets hurt and collateral damage be damned. Damon has just been the one to admit that about himself more than others and foresakes the righteous indignation.
I like that Damon freely admits that collateral damage is just that. He is pragmatic in those situations and makes no bones about it. As the series wears on we see that others start to follow that way of thinking and become more pragmatic about survival and protecting people that they love. Its truly fascinating don't ya think?

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

ANd the whole thing wrong about that is that Elijah tells Elena sorry, but he doesn't apologize to Bonnie who was the one put in danger by all of that and who had to had her mother turned. Bonnie was the one who lost the most in that situation, so why is Elena getting apologized to?

Doesn't matter to be if she is the leading lady or not, I still find fault that Bonnie is the one used and abused and always losing out on something and suffering the the sake of Elena. Because Bonnie's life and feelings aren't worth less than Elena's to me. Doesn't make it right by just saying that Elena is the lead character, it's still wrong and doesn't make Bonnie getting hurt okay.

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

She was an Ally to Elijah, he didn't care about Bonnie Bennett. He did not care about Bonnie Bennett, Stefan and Damon Salvatore were not in love with Bonnie Bennett, so no, in this situation, Elena is what was more important to these three.

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[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Well Elijah apologized to Elena because he betrayed her, threatened her life and leveraged her to force the Salvatores' hand after she came clean and tried to warn him.
Abbey Bennett was the victim in the end, however it is a bit unrealistic to expect Elijah to apologise to them when they were complicit in trying to kill him and his entire family.

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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

ANd the whole thing wrong about that is that Elijah tells Elena sorry, but he doesn't apologize to Bonnie who was the one put in danger by all of that and who had to had her mother turned. Bonnie was the one who lost the most in that situation, so why is Elena getting apologized to?

Doesn't matter to be if she is the leading lady or not, I still find fault that Bonnie is the one used and abused and always losing out on something and suffering the the sake of Elena. Because Bonnie's life and feelings aren't worth less than Elena's to me. Doesn't make it right by just saying that Elena is the lead character, it's still wrong and doesn't make Bonnie getting hurt okay.

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[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

Can you truly blame Elijah? He wanted to save his family, he didn't want to die.

I will forever believe that Elena's stupidity caused this. Why on God's green earth would she take a walk with the man whose family she and her friends are plotting to wipe out? She didn't unknowingly do it. It wasn't like the brothers, the Bennett's, Finn and Esther came up with this plan, took Elena's blood while she slept....no, Elena was present every step of the way. This was one time that Elena was an idiot.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

I mean you could blame Esther I guess more than anyone for the situation, but, I don't blame Elena for walking with him, he was already suspicious and could snatch her up whenever he wanted. It's not really like she could say no and confirm his suspicions. But he did set up Stefan and Damon's ultimatum, which is why I don't blame them for Abby.

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[–] ditzymuffin 8 years ago

Which is why it was total bull crap that we never got to see Bonnie have it out with Elena about this. Hell, does Bonnie even know that Elena spilled the beans to Elijah and put Bonnie and her mom in danger or did sweet innocent Elena let her bestie think her boyfriends were completely to blame?

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[–] jordanjanellejoy 8 years ago

Exactly. Bottom line is it was Bonnie that suffered so who cares? That's the message they send viewers whenever something happens to Bonnie.

My ass may be dumb, but I ain't no dumbass...

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[–] floriangray 8 years ago

I agree. Stefan is supposed to be the good brother, but he is just as guilty as every other vampire on the show.

Who wants to live forever?

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[–] meowingdoggos 8 years ago

Well apparently nothing matters as long as you're attractive these days

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[–] orgine 8 years ago

I personally gave up when Ian Somerhalder declared that Damon raped Caroline and his fans still insisted on denying it. That was Trump-level delusional thinking right there.

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[–] meowingdoggos 8 years ago

tru dat

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[–] HP_HG_Fan 8 years ago

I have seen a lot of good replies and a lot that I disagree with but can't reply to all of them so I will say this:

The biggest issue is not what was done but the way that things have been portrayed. Damon raping Caroline and Andie was NEVER acknowledged. It was trivialised as something less than rape and Caroline had every right to hate Damon for the rest of her life, yet she is made to look petty for it and portrayed as hating Damon for no reason, when in fact she has a VERY good reason.

Other characters have also done awful things, I do not deny that but look and the way that Plec and Dries idolise Damon. They portray him as the sexy bad boy that women dream about, when in reality it is quite damaging for women to idealise men like Damon, who would most likely be abusive towards them. The media has a lot of influence on society, whether we like it or not. That is why I am very much against characters like Damon Salvatore, Christian Grey and Chuck Bass.

We are supposed to like Elena and view her as compassionate and kind, yet she is the same girl who is dating the guy who did absolutely horrendous things to her friends and family. You know what message that sends out? That if a guy is hawt and walks into your life, you should put him before people who have loved and cared about you for your entire life.

And don't even get me started on Bonnie being his "best friend" after everything he put her through over the seasons. Poor girl seems to have no sense of self-worth.

S.P.E.R.M member 270

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

NO doubt that JP and the writers have a problem with acknowledging that Damon raped Caroline. I think that JP helps enable those who want to doubt that Damon raped Caroline, because they use her writing and the fact that it was never acknowledged on the show to say that it wasn't rape.

It's not just the fans who idolize Damon and Damon isn't the only one idolized on the show. Fans will idolize abusive men on their own and come up with a bunch of excuses for the man's abusive behavior. As I said before it's not just done with Damon in the fandom. It's done with Enzo,Klaus,Kai, Stefan and you see their fans coming up with excuses for their actions.

Some fans of Kai when state how hot he even though he is a psychopath, they will still talk about how good looking he is. So, overall I believe that if these male characters weren't as good looking that you wouldn't have as many fans and women stanning them and running to their defense.

JP and the writers are at fault and some fans are at fault as well. Fans who will blame Elena for Damon snapping Jeremy's neck because ELena rejected him. Or fans who call out Damon's problematic actions, but who will then ignore or excuse the things that there own fave male character does are just as wrong as JP is for denying that Damon raped Caroline.

I have seen fans of Kai call out Damon, but then make excuses for all of the killing and murdering that Kai has done, blaming others for his abuse. If some call out Damon, but then see Bonnie getting the blame for Kai stabbing her and saying that Bonnie "provoked" Kai's violence against her or make excuses for Kai murdering his family and act like he is a victim in all of it and coddle to him and feel sorry for him, then how is that different from JP denying Damon's rape and other fans of other male characters denying the abuse that their fave has done?

Bonnie got attacked and called all sorts of names for not forgiving Kai. His violent actions after 1903 are blamed on her or Damon, instead of fans blaming him. Don't see the difference from that and Damon fans who deny that Damon raped Caroline.

Some of the same who have a problem with Damon, will whitewash the killing and the abuse that their fave has done or act like Damon is so much worse. When it's not just Damon who fans or the writers will bend over backwards to defend. So, this problem is something that needs to be acknowledged overall when it comes to the TVD fandom and other fans of problematic male characters.

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[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

I think you're missing the point that HP_HG and others are making.

The biggest issue is not what was done but the way that things have been portrayed.

No one is saying that stories shouldn't have villains. But the point is how these villains's actions are treated in the story.

While Kai is defended by his fans, the show doesn't defend him. He is a villain, treated by all the characters as a villain, is punished and dies. Neither his family nor Bonnie ever forgive him for his actions and they are shown to be right to hold onto their anger.

Damon, on the other hand, is supposed to be the hero of the show. The show never calls his rape of Caroline or Andi Starr. He never apologises or shows any regret or remorse for his actions towards either woman. Caroline was petty for not getting over the fact that he raped her. He and her mother became best friends to the extent that he scolded Caroline for trying to save her life. No one in the show has ever validated her anger at him, and she is now one of his good friends.

Can you see the stark difference?

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

But, if fans themselves go out to make excuses for the male characters then that is just as much of an issue as the show doing it. The writers should be called out for whitewashing Damon's rape, but so should any person in real life or fiction who will make excuses for a male characters violent actions.

SInce it's a problem in society overall. And it's not just fictional men who get excused. Some of the same things said to defend Kai or blame Bonnie for his abuse and violence towards her, are some of the same things said to blame real life victims of violence and rape by men.

People will often try to find ways to blame the woman for the rape and abuse that she has faced. Looking for reasons or why she brought it on herself or lured and provoked the man to abuse or rape her. Which is why those who say that Bonnie provoked Kai into stabbing her or that it;s her fault that he did all of those things to her in 1994 is a problem.

If we are going to talk about how Damon is written, then I think that we also need to address how even in fiction how violent and abusive male characters are defended, is a reflection of the problems in overall society, in real life and how violent men are defended.

You have people coming up with meta's to excuse their fave male character's abusive actions on his childhood or how he was hurt/heartbroken at some point. And coming up with reasons for why they feel sorry for him and empathy for him and his feelings are uplifted over his victims. Like some uplifted Kai's over Bonnie's because he said sorry and did one decent act to save her. Then Bonnie is expected to understand his feelings. Or those that blamed Elena because she rejected Damon and he snapped Jeremy's neck as a response.

It's like the judge in the Brock Turner case, saying that he had a future and that Brock's future shouldn't be ruined Or Brock's family going on about what Brock lost and how he felt and all of the reasons to feel sorry for this rapist and because of that he doesn't even get 6 months in prison, because someone is feeling sorry for him and his feelings and putting what he victim went through to the side. The victim gets blamed by some people for drinking and it's seen as her fault.

It's a problem with defending a fictional male's violence and abuse, spills over to real life of defending men's violence and abuse, while putting what their victims went through to the side and dismissing it.

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[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

But, if fans themselves go out to make excuses for the male characters then that is just as much of an issue as the show doing it.

No, it's not. And I will give you, what I hope is a very good example of why:

I assume you've read Harry Potter? Everyone has by now. In the books, Draco Malfoy is a spoiled, entitled, racist brat and JK Rowling continuously condemns him. He is punished for his actions repeatedly and at the end, seems to have come to some sort of epiphany but the story never treats him as a hero. He has a lot of fans, who say he's a misunderstood, abused boy. But there are more people who read the books and know exactly what he is.

Now imagine a situation where Draco Malfoy acts as a racist and a bully and a wizarding Hitler Youth for the first 6 books. Then in book 7, he suddenly joins the Golden Trio and is treated as equal, even more heroic than them. Everything he's done before - racist slurs to Hermione, bullying, treason - is completely swept under the rug. More than that, JK Rowling insists that none of Draco's past actions were offences - he was never racist to Hermione. Nor was he bully or a traitor or a believer in Blood Purity. Going forward, Harry falls in love with him. Hermione thinks he's a great friend. Ron (and you know it'll be Ron) is the only one that seems to still loathe Draco. But - and this is the tricky part - Ron never says why he hates Draco. He just seems to do so. But Harry, Hermione, the Weasleys, and the author by implication, treat Ron as being unreasonable and petty for hating Draco. Eventually, Ron and Draco become friends, too.

Can you understand how these are two completely different stories and what the implication of reading both are? How there's a difference between a group of (usually adult) fans of Draco writing fanon Draco in leather pants ---- and JK Rowling herself making Draco a Marty Sue in the books, and the effect that has on the minds of the children who read her books?

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

But I see them as equally as bad. As long as you have people who will want to defend men for their violence and abuse. then there is always going to be this problem in society. Some will just always give the men the benefit of the doubt because they happen to be popular or good looking.

It's not just limited to how Authors write for or excuse these problematic male characters actions. In some cases how they write does influence fans of these shows/movies/books to whitewash and excuse their fave male characters abuse and wrong doings. Like I said JP not acknowledging what Damon has done to Caroline, does have some using her words in order to defend the rape.

But, it's not the fault of writers/Authors alone for how men and male characters are excused. Some people who have no idea what TVD is or who never heard of Damon Salvatore, will defend abuser/rapist/violent men or look for a way to blame their victims. Someone willing to blame the victims or excuse the men because they are popular or good looking has a problem within themselves.

The fact that there are people who will defend Damon or others in the TVD fandom or the fact that JP will try to brush Damon's rape under the rug, is because of the rape culture that is already there.

Damon's rape of Caroline is white washed because of the fact that some only view rape as a man forcing himself on a woman, as she is kicking and screaming no. So, because there was no scene where Damon violently forced himself on Caroline, as she screamed No, then JP uses that to not have to address what happened and people who defend Damon use it.

Damon and all of the other male characters who's violent actions are defended and excuse happens because of what society already has in place. And anyone who keeps these beliefs up are part of the problem.

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Damon's rape isn't acknowledged because they don't have a scene of him forcing himself on her, they never mention what he did after S2 because they wanted to turn him into a bad boy hero and be the center of the story. You're always going to have deluded people who idolize people like Damon Salvatore (Ian Somerhalder) by looks alone. Those people are delusional, they don't actually think its right, they don't want to admit they're wrong. This is a broadcasted TV Series, the discussion is how unbeliveable it is that Damon can get all his actions whitewashed as he has and still be portrayed as this great person that everybody sees him as.

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[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

But I see them as equally as bad.

But in the case of Damon vs the villains of TVD, this is not an either/or scenario, so they cannot be equally bad. In Damon's case, he gets the Fanon Draco treatment "in" the show and by the fans.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Damon is not the only one's who's actions get whitewashed by the writers or the show. And it is equally as bad when villains don't get seen or admitted to as villains by their fans. It's one thing for fans to Stan a problematic male character or a villain and admit that he is a psychopath/sociopath and that he should be held fully at fault and to blame for his actions and be responsible for his actions.

It;s another when many fans of these villains whitewash and excuse their actions for the male villains to be this misunderstood guy, who they feel sorry for and feel empathy for. And acting like the villain is just a good guy deep down. While the show may not make them out to be as hero's, the fans of these villains will.

Did JP write Kai as a hero? Nope. But, some of his fans made him out to be this good guy or hero deep down or spin his actions as something that he should be praised for. His one decent act of helping getting Bonnie out of 1994 because of his merge with Luke, is seen as him being a hero or a good guy and him being redeemed and some think that the one act should have overrode how Bonnie felt about him and that she was suppose to get past everything that he did to her in 1994 and forgive him because he said sorry once and did one decent act. And because she didn't forgive him, she is made out to be the bad guy and worse than Kai and Kai coming back on 1903 and going on a killing spree and putting Elena in a coma is blamed on Bonnie not forgiving him.

Because the spin is that he was turning into a "good guy" until Bonnie trapped him in 1903. So they blame her instead of admitting to Kai doing the things that he did because he was written as a villain in the show and is a psychopath/sociopath.

So there really is no difference between fans who white wash Damon's rape and those who white wash other male problematic characters actions. JP can be blamed some for the Damon rape situation. She can't be blamed for how all of the fans see male characters outside of Damon.

Anyone who excuses male abusers/rapist and violent men are equally to blame as JP is. A person who has never watched JP's shows or TVD and who will blame the victim and defend rapists/abusers aren't as damaging and equally as bad?

Some who have never even heard about JP or TVD, will go out and defend Johnny Depp and call Amber heard a gold digger and accuse her of lying on him and making up abuse claims, all because some find him good looking and because he is famous. Those types aren't as equally bad as JP?

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[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

So there really is no difference between fans who white wash Damon's rape and those who white wash other male problematic characters actions. JP can be blamed some for the Damon rape situation. She can't be blamed for how all of the fans see male characters outside of Damon.

I never argued that Plec is to blame for how fans see male characters outside of Damon. Nor did I argue about the difference between fans who whitewash Damon and the fans who whitewash other male characters.

I'm saying it's doubly problematic that Damon is whitewashed in the show (by Plec) and by his fans.

You might need to read my earlier posts because it seems we're having two different conversations.

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[–] HP_HG_Fan 8 years ago

This analogy is absolutely spot on.

S.P.E.R.M member 270

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[–] ursulazsenya 8 years ago

thank you so much. It gets frustrating, I know.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Also since we are talking about not just the writers, but how some Damon fans deny the rape and say that Damon isn't a rapist or didn't rape Caroline. Then I don't see the difference in the Damon fans who try to deflect and blame Caroline by saying that Caroline consented or wanted to sleep with Damon. And who will use Caroline's actions to try and point out how she "consented" even tho being compelled prevented Caroline from really consenting. Some will still try to deflect onto her actions to free Damon of blame.

Don't see the difference in that and between Kai fans who will blame Bonnie for Kai stabbing her in 1994, saying that "she hurt him first or axed him first" and therefore provoked everything that he did to her. Trying to make it seem like Bonnie was equally as bad as Kai was in 1994, in order to keep Kai from getting the full blame. Even to the point of completely dismissing the fact that Kai siphoned Bonnie's magic painfully and threatened to kill her before she even axed him. But, that is all forgotten about or overlooked in the attempt to blame Bonnie and excuse Kai.

In both cases using the women that these men hurt to try and deflect the blame or try to get these women to share the blame and the fault, because some just don't want to admit that their fave male character should take the full blame, fault and responsibility for the ones that they have hurt and abused.

Some see the show as writing Damon as a good guy who gets away with things. But, the fans still will try to whitewash and woobify a male villain character into this misunderstood guy, who is somehow a victim of his life and that's why they feel sorry for him and acting like he is just this good guy deep down, despite his abuse or the fact that he is a murderer.

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

That also works the other way around with Elena, Katherine, and Caroline. Caroline has killed a number of people now and hasn't been condemned once for it, Katherine gets the Damon treatment from fans, accept in the show she died. Elena plotted and killed Kol and thousands of Vampires by doing so. Never got anything from Kol, besides his one on one in 4x22 in fact he doesn't even mention the first way he died in TO.

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[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

Damon, on the other hand, is supposed to be the hero of the show. The show never calls his rape of Caroline or Andi Starr. He never apologises or shows any regret or remorse for his actions towards either woman. Caroline was petty for not getting over the fact that he raped her. He and her mother became best friends to the extent that he scolded Caroline for trying to save her life. No one in the show has ever validated her anger at him, and she is now one of his good friends.

Yes! This exactly. Damon is the hero, and he got the prize (Elena, who used to be a complex character with feelings and morals is now just a trophy for Damon to do bad thing sin the name of).

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[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

I think you're missing the point that HP_HG and others are making.

The biggest issue is not what was done but the way that things have been portrayed.
Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

I know this was meant for awesomebamon but I DO get your point, this has been a valid criticism of the show for quite some time. The "good" guys are consistently portrayed as being "right" or justified in some way whilst doing incredibly morally dubious things.
Where I think the point is being missed repeatedly in this thread is that Damon is not the only character portrayed in this way. In fact I would go as far as to say that Damon of all the main characters has been more consistently punished in the show and more often than not his actions are portrayed by the show as being immoral and wrong and he often has to deal with consequences of those actions. Damon is not seen or portrayed as the hero in the show and the characters do not treat him like one either. See S7.

However, Stefan, Caroline are both portrayed as heroes despite the terrible things they have done to their friends..and forgiven instantly and welcomed back into the fold. We don't get a running commentary of all the bad, terrible things they did from every other character like Damon does so I don't fully accept the POV that Damon is whitewashed.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

I think that the actions of the others do get overlooked sometimes on the show too and not just with Damon all of the time. For example with Damon's desiccation, Bonnie, Stefan and Alaric all upset with him and they all confront him and show their anger to him about it.

You even have Enzo and Alaric lecturing to Damon about his desiccation and how wrong that he was. But, meanwhile Enzo bringing Rayna back to life and then pistol whipping Bonnie and preventing her from leaving and Bonnie getting hurt because Enzo locked Damon in a room with Tyler and Tyler hurt Bonnie, then Damon couldn't heal Bonnie because of a drug that Enzo gave her gets overlooked.

Alaric lied about what he did to the stone at first, because he wanted the Stone to bring back Jo. Stefan wanted revenge on Julian which ended up leading to him and Damon getting trapped inside of the Stone.

So, all of the fall out with Rayna, the stone helped lead to Damon desiccating himself. But, then Enzo, Alaric, and Stefan all get to be angry with Damon and preach to him while they don't address the fact that their own selfish or reckless actions during the season lead to people getting hurt.

Enzo wants to talk to Damon about Bonnie, but then it's his actions in getting Bonnie hurt that helped put her in the hospital and Damon made the decision to desiccate to protect her and Stefan. If Enzo would have let Bonnie and Damon leave the Armory and not pistol whip her to keep her against her will, then there would be no case where Bonnie tried to save Damon from Tyler, because Enzo locked Damon in the room with Tyler knowing that Tyler could have killed Damon.

I don't even think that Enzo was really held at fault or confronted earlier in the season when he kidnapped Caroline for Lily and allowed the heretics to torture her.

I think that other characters get off easily too on the show for considering what they have done.

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[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

I think the thing with Enzo vs Damon though is that nobody really cares about Enzo. The fandom as a whole seems to generally feel either "meh" or "eww" about him. If someone made a post about Enzo being so great for Bonnie and a nice guy, I would definitely argue with that, but nobody makes those posts, nobody is out there saying these things, so there isn't much of a reason to go on about him.

As for Alaric, ,I don't think Alaric has done anything even approaching what the vampires have done, so again I won't waste the energy with him.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Enzo does have a few fans who like him with Bonnie. They will bash Damon for the desiccation and give credit to Enzo for being there for Bonnie for three years. But, Enzo's actions that lead to Bonnie getting hurt before the desiccation get overlooked by them.

When they were trying to build up BE, I don't even think that they had Bonnie really confront Enzo or call him out for his part in helping Lily kidnap Caroline, they were all about having Bonnie tell Enzo what he deserves and she was telling him that he deserve better than Lily, despite Enzo's part in what he did to Caroline. Hard to believe that Bonnie wouldn't have been at least a little angry towards him for what he did to her friend, when this was before they were a thing.

Bonnie has been allowed to be more angry at Damon, even when Damon was trying to save her life. But, in a deleted scene, Enzo stakes Bonnie to protect himself and Bonnie is okay with him doing that.

The writers allow Enzo to get off easy for some of the things that he has done to hurt Caroline/Bonnie/Damon etc...he hasn't really faced any consequences for kidnapping Caroline or for nearly getting Damon killed by Tyler and Bonnie hurt as a result. It's just three years later and Enzo has Bonnie as a girlfriend and is made out to be Bonnie's hero(by JP and some of his fans) despite his actions in season.

lol I don't think that a lot of people really cared for Enzo, the writers use Bonnie to get more people to care about him.

By Alaric I just mean the self righteous way that he can act towards Damon, but then he himself has been selfish towards Bonnie. When he knew that the stone was making Bonnie sick, but lied about it because he wanted Jo.

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Cough* Stefan admitted 2 or 3 times he got Damon stuck in the stone cough* but, okay, Alaric can't really be blamed for finding the Phoenix Stone as Lily was already looking for it.

ENZO, on the other hand, let me give you this, Enzo has suffered nearly Zero, absolutely no consequences since he came on the show, he killed himself, he got sent to Tripp because he killed Ivy, but because Caroline was jealous of her Ivy was somehow Stefan's fault, so Stefan saves Enzo, Enzo then concocts a reveng plan that puts Sarah Salvatore in danger, Matt and Caroline either never tell Stefan or he just doesn't find out. Enzo also joins Lily and the heretics, says he been betrayed by the MF gang which hadn't ever happened, then proceeds to kill not-Oscar, doesn't get questioned, gets taken by The Armory to be offered a job, pistol whips Bonnie, endangers her, Damon, and Tyler, raises Rayna Cruz, oh, and he killed Tom Avery. But, he somehow gets Damon and Caroline's friendship, also Alarics I guess, Stefan and Matt tolerate him for god knows what and Bonnie is insanely in love with him. LOL

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Oh and Enzo killed Monigue.

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[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

ENZO, on the other hand, let me give you this, Enzo has suffered nearly Zero, absolutely no consequences since he came on the show, he killed himself, he got sent to Tripp because he killed Ivy, but because Caroline was jealous of her Ivy was somehow Stefan's fault, so Stefan saves Enzo, Enzo then concocts a reveng plan that puts Sarah Salvatore in danger, Matt and Caroline either never tell Stefan or he just doesn't find out. Enzo also joins Lily and the heretics, says he been betrayed by the MF gang which hadn't ever happened, then proceeds to kill not-Oscar, doesn't get questioned, gets taken by The Armory to be offered a job, pistol whips Bonnie, endangers her, Damon, and Tyler, raises Rayna Cruz, oh, and he killed Tom Avery. But, he somehow gets Damon and Caroline's friendship, also Alarics I guess, Stefan and Matt tolerate him for god knows what and Bonnie is insanely in love with him. LOL

Thank you for illustrating perfectly the 2 points I was trying to make.

1) Damon is not the only character whose actions are "whitewashed"
2) Fans will justify anything their fave does no matter what they do and blame the woman. Again, this is not just limited to the Damon fanbase.

Why is it so difficult to accept that this show is flawed to the hilt but admit they love it anyway. I do.
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Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

It's funny tho when Enzo complains about the Mystic Falls gang betraying him and whining to Bonnie about how he wants someone to be loyal and ride and die for him, like Bonnie was for Damon.

But, then kidnaps Caroline, gets her tortured by the heretics and puts Damon/Bonnie in danger with his plan at the Armory and thinks that he is owed them being loyal to him. I'm sure that he would have kidnapped or hurt any one of the others too, if he thought that it was going to get him on Lily's good side like kidnapping Caroline did. What does he expect, even though all of his wrong doings in Season 7 got overlooked and whitewashed by the writers to eventually put him with Bonnie.

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[–] floriangray 8 years ago

Enzo is a very confusing character. A lot of his relationships and character developement happened off screen. First, he was suddenly Damon's best friend, then he wanted to get revenge on Stefan for some random reason, then he knew Lily 100 years ago and he still was in love with her, then she died and he fell in love with Bonnie over a magical 3 year period that we never saw.

Who wants to live forever?

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[–] D_Stormborn 8 years ago

There is nothing good about Damon, except that he's funnier than his brother, or most people. And apparently sex with him is very consuming.

________
"Art is magic delivered from the lie of being truth"

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[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago



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[–] mariannesveumlunde 8 years ago

I agree. He's horrible, and I kind of don't like him, but he can have his moments. I'm not a fan, but he has some funny jokes.

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[–] sarizonana 8 years ago

I think there is nothing wrong on being fans of darker or more complex heroes. Im not a fan of Damon, Christian Grey Chuck bass, Edward Cullen or any of these guys adored by teenagers but im fan of a similar just older James Bond.

Heroes with some contradictory actions can be the most interesting. Im not talking about Craig's take on the character which is more realistic and human but the classic version played by Sean Connery and Pierce Brosnan which has done many not so heroic stuff like blackmailing The nurse st the clinic in thunderball, insisting too hard with Pussy Galore in Goldfinger, Killing Elektra King in cold blood when she had nothing to defend herself with and the way he killed Alec in Goldeneye was very brutal.

As long as you don't look for guys like them in real life, there is nothing wrong on being more intrigued by the bad boys on screen and being quite attracted to them its just fiction.

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[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

The reason Damon is liked is quite simple he is flawed but relatble character. I don't hold his vampire urges against him peopel forget he is a vampire lol its in his very nature to hunt and kill no different than a wild animal. Damon never wanted any of this though and deep down he is a good person. We see glimpses of it throughout the show. He is damaged soul and many ppl like myself can relate to that.

I also don't ascribe political BS to characters I like. When it comes to characters as long as they come across natural with believable motivations and desires that's all I need.

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[–] ditzymuffin 8 years ago

The problem is not that Damon does horrible things. The problem is that he keeps doing the same horrible *beep* over and over and no one bats an eyelash. There are barely ever any consequences for his actions. It's unrealistic to watch the other characters pal around with some who ridiculed, hurt, killed, and raped them. They look stupid and it makes no sense from a story and real life perspective. It's galling for many viewers to watch.

Also the "oh it's a vampire show" defense is weak. There are plenty of movies and tv shows that feature vampires in all their scary, violent, tragic, and complex glory. TVD is not one of them. It's just badly written.

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[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

The problem is the supposedly "bad" actions he does is subjective and dependent on the viewer. Yes as a Damon fan I can admit he has done some messed up sh!t but the good thing about this show is I feel understand him and why he makes the choices he does. Damon just like everyone of us are capable of both good and bad and we sometimes do things out of selfishness.

Also this show isn't a documentary on real life(thank god for that). It's a fictional tv show about vampires and romance. So I'm not going to bash the show for showing the nature of a vampire. What's great about this show is seeing how the vampires struggle to hold onto their humanity. We have seen both brothers do cruel sh!t and we have also seen their backstories that helped shape them for who they are.

I like that this show isn't about boring black/white morality fables and dares to show the sometimes ugly side of human nature.

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[–] orgine 8 years ago

The problem is the supposedly "bad" actions he does is subjective and dependent on the viewer.

Rape is subjective? 

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[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

We were never shown his "suppose' rape of caroline so I'm not going to pretend to be outraged about it. I highly doubt he forced himself on her in such a way. damon has shown at times he can be a monster but not that much of a monster.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Ian said at a Con again today that Damon raped Caroline. The writers didn't intend for it to come off that way, but it's rape because Caroline could not consent with Damon compelling her.

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[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

I don't think that rape per say yes I understand consent is important but the way some ppl go about the consent thing they say that even if a chick sleeps with a guy and regrets it in the morning that is somehow rape. In my opinion rape is the physical force onto someone. Either way I don't particular care and I'm glad the writers agree with that and moved on from it.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Rape is anytime that someone sleeps with someone else with the lack of consent. Doesn't have to be by force. Someone can be too drunk or drugged to be able to properly consent to rape. In this case it was the fact that Damon compelled Caroline and she didn't have control of her mind to decide what she wanted to do. Damon compelled her to do what he wanted her to do, like mind control. Without the compelling then Caroline may have decided not to sleep with Damon, but he took away her choice and that's why it's rape.

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[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with that. If someone gets drunk and sleeps with someone then turns around and regrets it in the morning that isn't rape. People are throwing around the term rape to easily which destroys the notion of what rape really is. Rape isn't a bad decision on your part its someone forcing their way onto you.

If you wanna argue Damon raped Caroline I can see why you think that. yes she was compelled so she wasn't in her own frame of mind. But he really didn't harm her at least physically and I can strongly assume most men would use compulsion for a chance to sleep with a hot chick like Caroline if they were a vampire. Now taking advantage of ppl is wrong so I'm not going to defend what Damon did to her as right it wasn't but I understand why he did it. At the very least he had enough self control to not harm her or turn her into a vampire like he did with Vicky.

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

You can't disagree with a definitive fact my man.

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[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

Yes I can because its hardly a fact. I judge by what I see on screen and we were never shown a scene of Damon raping her. Now it was made clear he compelled her and took advantage of her yes and that isn't right but we have be shown that vampires use compulsion in this show to get what they want. Stefan, katherine, Damon, Klaus the list goes on they all have done it.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Which is why Katherine also raped Stefan, because she compelled him as well. On that point people in the fandom who call out Damon for being a rapist, has to call out Katherine for being one as well. But, some love Katherine and like shipping her with Stefan and either because Damon's actions are the one that gets focused on the most or because Katherine is a woman then I believe her compelling Stefan gets overlooked.

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[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

Well I don't consider it rape per say but I can see why some do. I see it as them taking advantage of their vampire nature which doesn't make it right but I don't think it makes wrong either. Personally I don't see the need to attribute real life issues to my entertainment. I watch shows like TVD to escape reality not to be reminded of it. So if you guys wanna whine on here about PC issues more power to you but try to realize not everyone cares to do that.

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[–] awesomebamon 8 years ago

Many shows actually will write current serious social issues into their episodes. so it's not whining. I don't believe in excuses the characters murders/rape/violent actions into saying that it's just a vampire show. What Damon did to Caroline needs to be addressed, especially since some think that because Damon wasn't shown to force himself on Caroline as she screamed no, that it means that it wasn't rape.

The main thing is that for people to acknowledge that all of the characters who appeared on TVD are violent/murders/who have abused people. The problem with trying to excuse this violent/abusive behavior doesn't fall just on the Damon fandom and I have seen it with all fandoms of TVD, when it comes to all of the characters, they will try to whitewash or excuse. Damon gets the focus because he is the lead, but I see a pattern with fans in the fandom who just can't acknowledge their fave characters wrong doings.

Katherine's rape should also be acknowledged. Otherwise it's just a case of some being Anti-Damon and pointing out his wrong doings, while fans will give the other popular characters on TVD past/present as free pass and overlook their violent actions. Ignoring Katherine's rape of Stefan, is no better than those ignoring Damon's rape of Caroline.

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[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

I don't have to acknowledge anything other than this is a fictional show based on vampires. I don't care about any social issues when it comes to my entertainment. If you wanna personally be bothered by it that's fine but don't expect others to do so.

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

I'm not personally bothered by Damon raping, if that's the show, that's the show. However, this is villainous, and he's treated like a hero with no repurcussions, that my friend is terrible story structure, and makes it feel like Liz, Bonnie, Alaric, Stefan, Tyler, Matt, and Elena are idiots.

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[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

It's not villainous but it does show how damaged Damon is. Still it doesn't even remotely compare to Stefans ripper binges both when he first became a vampire and when he joined up with Klaus. Once again no one in this show is a pure saint so lets do away with the black/white morality crap.

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Raping isn't villainous? Alright I'm done.

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Compelling away her consent IS rape. Damn I do not hope you attend parties. Her consent is the problem, vampires nature does not change human definition, this isn't an other worldly series it's in modern times. It's rape.

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[–] DustnBones001 8 years ago

Vampire nature changes everything. It's why I don't go for the killing of all crocodiles even though they will eat everything in their path. It's their nature. It's the same concept with vampires. I don't choose to hold their nature against them. It doesn't make what they do as right but that is what vampires have been since the beginning of time. Seductive creatures that take what they want.

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[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

There's no such thing as vampire definition, so there's only human definition, and the definition of what Damon did was rape, but please by all means hit me with another delusional excuse.

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