MovieChat Forums > Suicide Squad (2016) Discussion > If it makes 670 milllon ww, it could sti...

If it makes 670 milllon ww, it could still be 40 million in the red:


Edit: I'm NOT calling this film a flop, nor am I a Marvel shill who's out to bash the DCEU. This post is meant to illustrate how corporate filmmaking works. Suicide Squad not making a profit during it's theatrical run was always a calculated loss: contrary to popular belief, most megabudget productions don't turn a profit through box office performance alone, not even the ones making between 600 - 800 million dollars.

Suicide Squad’s numbers (rough estimates, but based one the numbers from films of similar size):

REVENUE (by the end of its theatrical run):
Revenue from theatrical rental
Domestic: approx. 300 million, studio gets 55% = 165 million
Foreign: approx. 370 million, studio gets 40 % = 148 million
Combined revenue (all of the above): 313 million

COSTS:
Net production budget: 175 million
Marketing/releasing costs (domestic)): 80 million (estimate based on films of similar size)
Marketing/releasing costs (abroad): 80 million (estimate based on films of similar size)
Overhead: 17.5 million
Combined costs (all of the above): 352.5 million

313 million minus 352.5 million = -39,5 million (in the red)

And that figure doesn’t even factor in participations (back end deals for Smith, Leto, Robbie, Ayer and many others).

Naturally, this product will break even in the long run through ancillary revenue, though I doubt the corporation WB belongs to will consider it a winner. The real issue in the case of this product was not the little loss it suffered (that was calculated, although the studio certainly hoped it would make more money). What really hurt was the lukewarm reception from audiences and the scathing reviews from critics, because THAT jeopardizes what products like Suicide Squad are actually made for: to generate a never-ending stream of ancillary revenue through TV rights, DVD and Bluray sales, sequels, toys, spin-offs (film and TV), TV-shows and tie-ins, video games, books and comic books, soundtracks and even theme park rides and muscials.

Now instead of just insulting me, if you doubt what I'm writing here, somebody who's much smarter than me summerizes what the actual logic behind these tentpoles is here (in case, you'd rather just insult me, though, go ahead, but at least try to be creative):

Part 1:http://iveybusinessreview.ca/blogs/lbolukhba2010/2014/02/28/the-future-of-film-i-what-happened-to-summer-2013/

Part 2: http://iveybusinessreview.ca/blogs/lbolukhba2010/2014/03/01/future-of-film-ii-la-fin-du-cinema/

Part 3: http://iveybusinessreview.ca/blogs/lbolukhba2010/2014/03/02/future-of-film-iii-the-entertainment-as-a-service-crash/

Once you've read all this, you also realise why most of these products are declining in quality with regards to their storytelling.

The slightly more entertaining version of the above you can read here:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/why-blockbuster-movie-bubble-will-burst-in-2018/

and here: http://www.cracked.com/article_19012_5-hollywood-secrets-that-explain-why-so-many-movies-suck_p2.html



"The complication had a little complication."

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Read the whole post before answering to it, mate. Saves you the trouble of basically repeating what I already wrote - several times - in this thread.

"The complication had a little complication."

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Are all DCEU fans this dense?

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As a white dwarf star, yep.

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I guess ayer thanking everyone for making suicide squad a success when it hit 600m at the b.o meant nothing.

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It didn't because that's not even close to the break even point. It was just spin, marketing. Only somebody with a child's grasp of the box office would fall for it.

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Two movie contributors to Forbes said 600million to break even. I'd take their word for it over imdb

https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottMendelson/status/768827970764967936

Scott Mendelson & Mark Hughes

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Contributors on Twitter with no proven source don't mean squat. THR stated it was 750-800. Mark Hughes doesn't even claim to know the real figure, what he stated was that he heard from an unnamed source within the industry that the film's break-even point was closer to 600 million than to 700. That doesn't mean anything at all.

This lame spin doctoring is never going to work, kids. THR, deal with it.

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THR stated it was 750-800.


THR said an unnamed industry veteran told them, not sure it can pass for claiming

Mark Hughes doesn't even claim to know the real figure,


It is not a figure people can really exactly know, even the studio, they are gross estimation. And never a worldwide total like that (where the BO come from will change the needed total a lot)

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Then he shouldn't have claimed it.

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Did they ?, it was said like that in the article:

Another veteran says the goal is survival: "The movie's got to do $750 million, $800 million to break even. If they get anywhere close to that, they'll consider it a win."


The article is telling you that it come from a unnamed veteran not working for Warner, not that it is a fact.

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I trust THR. Some Twitter claims by this Hughs moron? SS is a tentpole, it needs to pass a billion to be a hit theatrically, that's just how it is now. Common sense, kids.

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That article quoted 'sources' and 'insiders' just the same

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That article was talking to some insider, but the guy saying the 750-800 was not one of them, simply a veteran, and used them/they to talk about WB.

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Some Twitter crap is never going to impress me.

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yeah thsss OP is spreading lies and exageration and this umbrragoom shhttt.

even some articles claim that jason bourne is a decent hit even just earning less than 400M WW with budget of 120M.

so sad

7 marvel movies flop hard based on this thread. yup only 4 MCU universe is a success and all other 9 films flop hard. SHameful

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Ok, I'm in sharing mode, so as with poster MachoMan, I'll try one more time to explain to you what "failure" in this business means and what is considered a success.

A warning though (because judging by your posts, English doesn't seem to be a language you're very familar with): the following consists of words which you have to try to read in order to understand them. Try one paragraph at a time, and you should be fine. Ready? Here it comes:

The giant conglomerates all major studios are now part of no longer care whether their tentpoles break even or make a profit during their theatrical runs. They design their tentpoles to be global multimedia platforms for all their ancillary products, which is also the reason why they now only make tentpoles that are "franchisable".

So products like 'Suicide Squad' don't have to break even at the box office: all they have to do is reach a critical mass of viewers and guarantee x-amount of market share to fulfill their function as "ads" for all the things the corporations want to sell you later.

The real money for all those tentpoles comes in through an endless stream of ancillary revenue: TV rights, DVD and Bluray sales, sequels, toys, spin-offs, TV-shows and tie-ins, video games, books and comic books, soundtracks and even theme park rides and muscials.

When you hear "franchise", I take it you think of a series of films, but to the corporations, the actual franchise consists of all those ancillary products mentioned above, of which a film is only a small part (albeit an important one, because it has the biggest effect on the success of all the others products in the franchise). A film like Ant-Man or Suicide Squad doesn't have to be profitable in itself, as long as it helps the overall franchise to become more profitable.

Get it now?

To ensure that a film which is deemed crucial to the success of the overall franchise - like Suicide Squad or BvS - reaches that critical mass of viewers, the corporation will spend insane amounts of money (well, insane to us - to them it makes perfect sense). The films need to be huge, loud and with tons of action and expensive special effects (because those types of films will attract lots of viewers in any country); and have at least one - usually very expensive - internationally very popular star like Jennifer Lawrence, Will Smith, Scarlett Johansson, Tom Cruise or Robert Downey Jr.: all of which leads to those bloated budgets we've come to know from tentpoles. On a film like Avengers: AoU or Civil War, Downey alone will make 50 million through back end deals - and that's not "Hollywood Accounting".

And they need gigantic marketing efforts to make sure their tentpole opens as big as possible to reach that critical mass of viewers and get them enough market share during the small window of time before the next blockbuster comes along or word of mouth kills it (a window which is getting smaller every year, as 2016 is living proof). In the case of Suicide Squad (and Batman vs Superman) that apparently worked.

And every once in a while, one of those tentpoles either manages to reach a certain level of quality (against all odds) or hype to gain more than the critical mass of viewers it is designed for, in which case the film will actually break even or even turn a profit during its theatrical run (which, of course, is a win-win scenario). But most of them don't: and (as I've explained above) they don't need to. It's a calculated loss, because the real money stream will follow later and ideally feed all divisons of the parent company for a long time.

Unless, of course, the film is considered to be so bad (by audiences - what critics think doesn't matter in the least) that it taints the franchise and has a negative effect on all other ancillary products. In some cases, you won't see any sequels getting made even if the films seem to have been successful at the box office - because audiences just didn't respond to them well enough ('Terminator: Genisys' would be a good example for that). A film like 'Genisys' is conisdered a "franchise killer". And it is in those cases where studios get nervous and really feel the pressure.

So BvS and SS not making a profit during their theatrical run is not the real issue - how audiences responded to them is, because that's what could have a negative effect on the prospects of the franchise as a whole.

Got it? Don't worry - better luck next time.

"The complication had a little complication."

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Yeah, well, if I'm going to take that seriously, after a quick glance at the last decade, the majority of tentpoles must have lost hundreds of millions each, which is far worse than almost breaking even. So, either I assume Hollywood magically makes money appear to fuel an unsustainable industry, or I conclude that either the movie doesn't have to make that much money during theatrical release, or much of the production budget is basically the studio paying itself.

If the DCEU is a giant money loser, then what is the Star Trek franchise?

Star Trek 09: Budget 150m, DOM 258m, WW 386m
Star Trek Into Darkness: Budget 190m, DOM 229m, WW 467m
Star Trek Beyond (so far): Budget 185m, DOM 135m, WW 202m


Suicide Squad (so far): Budget 175m, DOM 283m, WW 636m

After its first weekend, Suicide Squad's Domestic numbers were better than Star Trek Beyond's World Wide total after 4 weekends. I love the Star Trek franchise. It's Paramounts #2 franchise, much more critically acclaimed than the DCEU, and personally I think it's more entertaining than the DCEU. That said, in terms of box office, if the DCEU is a failure then Star Trek is a disaster!

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Yeah, well, if I'm going to take that seriously, after a quick glance at the last decade, the majority of tentpoles must have lost hundreds of millions each, which is far worse than almost breaking even. So, either I assume Hollywood magically makes money appear to fuel an unsustainable industry, or I conclude that either the movie doesn't have to make that much money during theatrical release, or much of the production budget is basically the studio paying itself.

I love the Star Trek franchise. It's Paramounts #2 franchise, much more critically acclaimed than the DCEU, and personally I think it's more entertaining than the DCEU. That said, in terms of box office, if the DCEU is a failure then Star Trek is a disaster!


Dude, the FILMS you mentioned may have lost money in the theater: but their respective FRANCHISES sure didn't. The most important thing (if you've read the entire post) is this:

When you hear "franchise", I take it you think of a series of films, but to the corporations, the actual franchise consists of all those ancillary products mentioned above, of which a film is only a small part (albeit an important one, because it has the biggest effect on the success of all the others products in the franchise). A film like Ant-Man or Suicide Squad doesn't have to be profitable in itself, as long as it helps the overall franchise to become more profitable.

Star Trek has millions of fans worldwide, and many of them are avid collectors and buy EVERYTHING Star Trek. They watch the many different TV shows (of which there is a new one getting made right now) and buy them on dvd, bluray, plus all the special editions (again: on dvd and bluray), they buy models of space ships, figurines of the characters, novelizations of the films; they buy costumes, T-shirts and tons of other stuff like soundtracks and games.

To keep the engine for those sales going, there must be a new movie every once in a while: because every time there is a new Star Trek movie, the sales for all the shît I mentioned above skyrockets.

The Star Trek films don't need to make a profit or even break even during their theatrical run, as long as they boost the overall franchise. And THAT they sure did, which is why there will be more sequels.

"The complication had a little complication."

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FILMS you mentioned may have lost money:


You think star trek from 2009 lost money ?

http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Star-Trek

I really doubt so, apparently it was a huge Dvd success.

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Not at all. What I meant to say is:

...FILMS you mentioned may have lost money in the theater
I'll edit the post to make it clearer.

As you said (and I agree): it doesn't matter in the least where the money comes from in a franchise. That's what I was trying to explain to that poster. Whether it's the DVD and Bluray sales or the TV rights or general Star Trek memorabilia or the film during its theatrical run, when you add all that revenue together, the film was certainly a success (which is why it got a sequel).

"The complication had a little complication."

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Oh I misread you sorry.

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Oh I misread you sorry.

No worries, it WAS misreadable. Anyway, how come you're so well informed about all things concerning box office? Are you just generally interested in those topics or do you work in the industry?

"The complication had a little complication."

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shut up with exaggeration. just see the numbers alone.

star tresk 2009 is a hit
star tresk into darkeness is a hit.

thats why the made sequel.

most marvel movies when they started earn like star trek does.

SS destroy these star trek shtt and most marvel films easily in the boxoofice.

if star trek and thor 1 and sht are decent hit. SS is a sure fire box office success.

simple as that

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shut up with exaggeration. just see the numbers alone.

star tresk 2009 is a hit
star tresk into darkeness is a hit.

thats why the made sequel.

most marvel movies when they started earn like star trek does.

SS destroy these star trek shtt and most marvel films easily in the boxoofice.

if star trek and thor 1 and sht are decent hit. SS is a sure fire box office success.

simple as that


Lol. Whatever helps you sleep better at night, kid.

"The complication had a little complication.

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After missing the Netflix train (or so I thought I doubted it too long) I searched the next investment possible to do to take advantage of the world grow and shift to new platform, so I started reading annual reports.

Most of my "knowledge" was simply by reading through leaked Sony detailed financial numbers of every movie they released between 2006 and 2014 and compiling them.

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Most of my "knowledge" was simply by reading through leaked Sony detailed financial numbers of every movie they released between 2006 and 2014 and compiling them.

Wow, ok: that probably WILL give you the best possible insider info. I have a question about Deadpool, but I'll start a thread on the box office board. You might be able to answer it (and Trevor probably too).

"The complication had a little complication."

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.'If it makes 670 milllon ww, it could still be 40 million in the red:"

Oh here we go...

I could go on WebMD and give someone input on a medication.
That don't make me a doctor.

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.'If it makes 670 milllon ww, it could still be 40 million in the red:"

Oh here we go...


It does not imply what you think.

In 2015 Warner brothers feature film division revenues:

Revenue by segment:

Film rentals: 1.58 billion
Home video: 1.71 billion
Television: 1.58 billion
Consumer products: 270 million
Total revenues from movies: 5.14 billion

Only 30% of the annual movie revenue to Warner was from the box office, it is more than normal for a movie to still be in the red after it's theatrical run, it is the case for almost all modern movies most of the revenues and all the profit happen after it.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

What are the losses now gogoschka?

That's pretty much break even for the film.

http://www.the-fanboy-perspective.com/a-rant-against-modern-tentpole-film-making.html

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