MovieChat Forums > 300: Rise of an Empire (2014) Discussion > Gorgo as female commander was an insult ...

Gorgo as female commander was an insult to both men and women

posted 11 years ago by Lin301
187 replies | jump to latest

I hate how gender roles are being all messed up these days under the 'feminist' flag and anyone who dares say otherwise is a sexist. I believe in equal rights for men and women, but this is not that! This is women taking over male atributes and archetypes and thereby both denying men's masculinity and their own femninity.

I think the first 300 did it perfectly: men were men, women were women; both respected and loved the other for their attributes; women were the birthgivers, nurturing and wise, men were the leaders (not bosses!), protectors and somewhat selfdestructive as I believe all men are. This is what made the relation between Gorgo and Leonidas so intimate to me, they had a deep mutual respect for one another whilst maintaining their own gender attributes.

Then along comes Rise of an Empire and we suddenly see Gorgo swinging around a blade in her evening dress as the front commander of the Spartans. Remember how 300 ended with Dilios leading the troops (where did that battle take places anyways?) and not Gorgo; it's because it was not her role as queen of Sparta. Apparantly now we have to ensure women are just as manly as men? Even if it's a historical piece of a time where this wasn't an issue? Are we not simply destroying what it means to be a woman by having them adopt male attributes? To me this is the same as wanting equal rights for gays and then showing they can be just as hetero as hetersexual people. Am I the only one seeing the insanity of this development? I hope someone can provide me with more insight because this was just ridiculous

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Edit for further elaboration in reply to:

" women were the birthgivers, nurturing and wise, men were the leaders (not bosses!), protectors and somewhat selfdestructive as I believe all men are."

This in itself is sexist against both males and females lmao. You do realize a lot of "feminine" and "masculine" attributes are social constructs? As in they have been made up at one point and then spread? Several aspects and/or things that are commonly thought of as male or female have been neither gender or thought as belong to the opposite once upon a time (easy example is the color pink, considered to be feminine, when it was at first considered a masculine color. Now you got guys like you probably, thinking it make a man look "womanly" if he wears pink. Btw high heels were also for males at first, yet a guy wearing that would get so much crap today for acting "gay"). Do you even realize that the belief in rigid ideas about masculinity is one of the leading reasons for male suicide since it plays a huge role in causing anxiety in men? You whining over what? A female being assertive? Because that belongs only to men? That is utterly ridiculous. And lmao on women being "nurturing and wise". The idea that all women are nurturing is *beep* despite all girls being exposed to the idea that they should be since they are children (e.g. girls are almost always giving toys/dolls that they have to take care off, even if they have no interest). Guys are denied to be shown as nurturing as well as if there is someone wrong to care for others, especially their own children. No gender is inherently wise either. That is just a posterous idea.

I agree with you that some gender attributes are social constructs, but you can't deny there aren't any biological differences between men and women; I must admit I dont exactly know which is which (I don't believe a clear distinction can be made) but I do like to discuss this topic with women and most say they believe they act more from their emotions than men, which act more from their ego (which makes some sense I guess evolution-wise). The examples I gave in the part you quoted where just the ones I felt were set up in the world of the first 300, where women were respected for ''giving birth to real men'' and the men were heavily trained in the art of combat. Sexist or not, that was 300. Obviously these attributes don't apply today; I apologise for not being more clear about that. I also didn't mean to say women can't be assertive; as Gorgo was assertive in the first 300 when she stabbed that corrupt politician dude and she obviously had some control over Leonidas as he asked for her permission to kick the Persian messenger down the pitt. I actually thought she was a strong female character in that movie. My main beef was with how Rise of an Empire broke with these roles set up in the first movie and we suddenly see Gorgo on the front line waving a blade around. Note that I didn't mind Artemesia as a assertive female warrior, just how they changed Gorgo for whatever reasons; as I mentioned in the op my best guess was to conform more to modern gender roles, which is exactly what I hate in a lot of movies these days (or ever)

[–] filmluvinruse 11 years ago

I agree, totally unrealistic in a "movie" to have women portrayed as bad asses.

So it's not the women that "belong" in the situation that bother you, just the portrayal of women who would less likely be thrust into such dire circumstances and be forced to fight for their very lives?!? Heaven forbid! ;)

Who's to say that something like that didn't really happen, either there or in other historical battles? And I hate to site such a poor reference, but it does have everything all in one place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_warfare_and_the_military_in_the_ ancient_era

I have come here to chew bubble gum & kick ass, and & i'm all out of bubble gum.

[–] kwaheri 11 years ago

This is women taking over male atributes and archetypes and thereby both denying men's masculinity and their own femninity.

And maybe, just maybe, your own post is the mirror image of that. Maybe it denies men's femininity and women's masculinity.

Your post exudes fear. Do you find gender and sexual ambiguities -- the messiness of real life -- personally threatening?

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] stijntje44 11 years ago

Agree, I don´t want men and women to be the same, that sounds boring as *beep*. I don´t really care how, but I want ways to develop a positive male identity, women have this by their very nature because they can give childbirth, but men do not.

I don´t care if the gender differences are biological or social, I like that they are there, it helps you find yourself, identify who you are. We shouldn´t be trying to get rid of gender roles, we should just foster an environment where it´s ok not to conform to them. Shoehorning in women who act like men (not strong women, I don't concider a woman strong because she can fight) because of some sort of delusional idea that women must act like men just annoys me.

And what's more, I think it's misogynistic from the feminists, when they are saying "you see, women can be strong like men" it sounds like they are implying that the way men are, is superior to how women are, otherwise, why would you spend so much time trying to prove you are like them?

You might be interrested to know that research has shown that atleast some of these attributes are evolutionary, female babies gazes linger longer on faces, while male babies already care more about technical stuff, and no society has ever been found where gender roles were reversed, the way you would expect if it's purely a social construct.

[–] arturo92376-572-519193 11 years ago

The masculinity and femininity you speak of was a direct result of men dominating women after the agricultural revolution. To say that men and women should know their place, with men acting like men, and women acting like women, you are pretty much being sexist.

[–] timlin-4 11 years ago

women shouldn't act like women? what should they be like, trout?

[–] arturo92376-572-519193 11 years ago

Women and men should however they wish to act.

Why is it expected for men to act tough and without emotion, and for women to be emotional, when men are more emotional than women?

[–] li-911-404682 11 years ago

You seem to have an inferiority complex, emotional issues as well as suffering from mal-knowledgement.

There have been great female warriors, rulers and commanders in every part of the world for millennia. In Asia, in Africa, in Europe, in the Americas. You are just ignorant of them because you only read male-are-superior-females-are-inferior-centered history, because that's what suits your ideas, beliefs and purposes. But even the Amazons, Cleopatra, Artemisia I of Caria (upon whom Artemisia in this movie is based), Katarina the Great of Russia and Elizabeth I should ring a bell to you as examples of famed female warriors, rulers and commanders.

[–] timlin-4 11 years ago

Amazons are a fairytale; none of the others were combat soldiers, and they all inherited power from male relatives who had actually created it. Children and half-wits have ruled empires too, even cats have inherited servants

[–] li-911-404682 11 years ago

Amazons are not a fairytale, there are many archaelogical findings to support their existance. They just don't fit in with your male-centric view of history and the world.

Women have fought on the battlefields in ancient times, just as they do now.

Spartan women did in fact take part in defending their city alongside the men, there are historical records of this.

Queen Elizabeth I and Queen Victoria where the greatest regents Great Britain ever had, are you comparing them to "children and half-wits"? Can you be any more ridiculous and obviously misogynistic?

Regarding women only being able to gain power by inheriting it from males, you should know that from the beginning, men could only become kings by marrying a queen or princess, this was the rule for more than 10 000 years up until our era. This is why you so often read about conquerors and warriors marrying royal women, not as a prize, but as the only way they could gain power. This is also the root of the olympic games, although they did become bastardised - the best males competed against eachother and the winner became the queens king for a year after a fertility festival, until the next years games and a new king was crowned.

It is the same with the pharaos of Egypt - men could only become pharaoh by marrying the queen, this has been misinterpreted as siblings marrying eachother as male-centric scientists assumed that the men inherited the throne and married their sisters, when in fact the throne was inherited on the matrilinear line from the beginning. Later on however, there were sibling-marriages, as the traditions changed and became more and more patriarchal.

[–] Kalustratus 11 years ago

The Amazons are a product of Greek mythology no different from The Cyclops, Pegasus or the 9 Headed Hydra. As for these archaeological findings you speak of none of them conclusively prove Amazons existed, where are the ruins of Amazon Temples or cities? Just because afew female graves are discovered with weapons and armour does not equal a female warrior dominant society these women were more than likely expected to defend their communities when the men were away at war much like viking women did. I'm not questioning the courage of women as there are many ways to measure courage other than swinging a sword but if you expect me to believe these Amazon women went to war while the men stayed at home and looked after the children then quite frankly you're as delusional as the Afrocentrists who claim Henry the 8th of England was black lol, such a society would soon die out due to irreplaceable female losses which leads to fewer babies being born etc Why do you think a male lion is bigger, stronger and has a mane compared to the female? It's because nature intended him to be the fighter and humans are no different.

[–] theoncastillo566 11 years ago

fEMINIST SOCIETY DON'T GIVE A *beep* ABOUT NATURE AND IN FACT TRYING TO REWRITE ITS ROLES TO SUIT THEIR OWN IDEAL.

They brainwash woman into believing their sexual peak is in their 40's and that all men should want them at this time.

They brainwashing men now into pursuing and wife up cougars because as they put it a woman at this stage knows what she wants, and has experience that she can impart on the young man. It also gives a young man a confidence boost.

They consistenly now through films try to make the female character one of the top badass in the group, or assign her leadership roles, or make her the smartest in the group just because she has a vagina.

They consistently now try to make woman to be stronger, or equal than men by showing the female character beating up a bunch of 200+ guys, and the male lead going "oh *beep*

Not to mention their constant shaming and blaming of MGTOW for every crackpot that goes on a killing spree.

[–] divide_and_cnquer 11 years ago

OH MAN!!! SOMEONE READ MY MIND!!

[–] chrisisstressed 11 years ago

I hate how gender roles are being all messed up these days under the 'feminist' flag and anyone who dares say otherwise is a sexist.

LMAO. Let's just say what needs to be said here: *beep*

Yeah, cause women never ever fought on any battlefield. Grow up. It's a *beep* movie and your opinion is entirely biased. Admittedly, I think they needed to give Lena some more time training to swing the sword but the whole point is for the moment to be stirring. And it worked just fine for me, despite the fact that she didn't swing perfectly every time but then maybe that was deliberate. She's a symbol here, after all, Spartan royalty at the head of the Spartan line as with Leonidas. That's the point. She's not a Spartan warrior, but she's out with them anyway, cause EVERYONE is committed now. Again, that's the point. And, if you know anything about history, when wars reach the point of "Total War" everyone is either fighting or building to fight - every resource is devoted to it.

If the moment didn't work for you, fair enough but don't go trying to force your own opinion of the world down other people's throats and then say something as stupid as 'if you dare disagree, you're sexist'. Dare? ROFL. Sexist? In what upside-down universe!

It's a fictionalized representation of history - and a Hollywood movie to boot. If you're really getting so messed up by it, you should probably stop watching movies right about now. And if the world really isn't fitting your quirky ideas of gender relations, either stop interacting with the outside world, change your philosophy or make your peace with it... or, of course, you could just keep whinging about it online. There's always that for people like you, lolol. Still, high blood pressure is nothing to laugh about, so you might want to consider relaxing.

"What the hell is a Fuzzy! And why do they make such good Druids?!" - Spoony