MovieChat Forums > Zeitgeist (2007) Discussion > The rating of this movie makes me sad.

The rating of this movie makes me sad.


How can a movie that has been universially panned by critics, picked to pieces by serious scientists, a movie with doubtious facts, many wich are proven wrong or altered to fit with its theories have a score of 8,6 on Imdb?

Really, this films factual accuracy is so bad it's more than a little painful.

I can understand why somebody could be decieved by the partial truth this movie ocationally offers, but come on people!

Well, I guess when people think they've discovered a lie, they turn into stubborn, ignorant fools. I just wish you could take off your conspiracy glasses for a second and see this movie for what it is, a movie covered in *beep* no more a documentary than the Da Vinci Code.

Cheers.

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Cut the propaganda dude. Or speak with facts.

-
Faith is not a good thing, and organized religion is nothing but a detriment.

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I'm sad that this movies score is as low as 8.6, I wish it was higher for the purpose of educating the masses to a larger degree on another way of thinking about things. There is the possibility of errors in the movie, although I haven't seen them, but that shouldn't stop the message of the movie from being heard. Because the message is so clear that the only reason that I can figure for you hating this movie is because you are so hopelessly dependent on the status quo system.

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[deleted]

Educating the masses? Try misinforming. There's virtually nothing in this 'documentary' with a factual basis. You probably only accept the [unsubstantiated, twisted, etc, etc] claims of this movies because you're more than just a little gullible.

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Only 4.7% voted it 1! Farenheit 9-11 got 10.2% ones.

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It's simple. The main audience for this movie consisted of internet conspiracy theorists. Hence, they've inflated the ratings of a poor movie that the rest of the world barely knows exists.

http://www.historyversusthedavincicode.com/
History vs. the Da Vinci Code

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So what you state is that everyone who enjoyed watching this movie automatically believes all of it's claims?

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Care to explain why someone who viewed this and rated it high wouldn't accept a majority of its fallacious claims?

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The only thing that the film asks you to do pretty much is open your eyes and mind out for the poo which is always good advice IMO.

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How good was the facts on 9/11!!
A building collapses the way it did by a plane hitting it???
And the proof regarding Pearl harbor/Oklahoma attacks etc, and other key reasons that USA citizans needed to have to be convinced to go to war...Norads response time, not forgetting it was just after Al Gore actully won the election and got shafted, then it was quickly forgotten thanks to 9/11
LOL I feel sorry for anyone whom doesn't see the truth behind what this powerful brilliant film is getting across.
Sooo did they find those weapons of mass destruction? or is it ok that they didn't after the Bush government claimed they had proof....
Or do you believe God put dinosaur fossils here to test our faith....
Oh and dont forget to obey the 10 commandments cause if you dont you will suffer an eternity of pain and suffering in hell....but God still love's you LOLOL...YEAH RIGHT THATS NOT A METHOD OF CONTROL BY FEAR.
The rating of this film was too low

Hi I'm Twice Nightly! Tonight's news...
Is a severed foot an alternate stocking filler?

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The only thing that the film asks you to do pretty much is open your eyes and mind out for the poo which is always good advice IMO.


Not really. The films asks you to accept a cartload of manure as "factual evidence". I don't know how this film can be regarded as promoting free thinking, to be honest.

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What parts do u think were manure??...Glad your not on the fence on the subject matter and I respect you feel like you do but just saying its manure without stating why is childish, I look forward to hearing why this film (to yourself) is pooh, please reply I would like to hear your reasoning as I disagree but am willing to hear your side cause I don't think you can, prove me wrong.

Hi I'm Twice Nightly! Tonight's news...
Is a severed foot an alternate stocking filler?

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Hotel-

What parts do u think were manure??...



We've had lengthy discussions about this on these baords. All you have to do is visit any of the Trheads here, soon you wil discuver that each topic is covered in detail.

EG, Jesus was not a plagerisation fo pagan solar messiahs and is not an allegory for the Sun.

The Trade Centre did nto seem like a cotnoled demolition.

There are laws that state you have to pay taxes and ty are easy to find.

Pretty well all the claims the film makes are untrue.




Glad your not on the fence on the subject matter and I respect you feel like you do but just saying its manure without stating why is childish, I look forward to hearing why this film (to yourself) is pooh, please reply I would like to hear your reasoning as I disagree but am willing to hear your side cause I don't think you can, prove me wrong.



Shoudl Ipost linsk to other threads?

I mean sure, I'm nto the guy you are responding to but hodl to pretty well the same ocnclusion he does, and can verify his claims for him.

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...And now back to ZAROVE and this the '2011 Kicking Water Uphill in Essay Format Championship' brought to you by 'Argumints' the mint that won't Shut The *beep* Up.

We'll have round the clock coverage of 'Why you're all wrong for having your own opinion'

*AND* A bonus 'Ask the Bible because science is literally from the Devil's hairy burning scrotum' round.

Also featuring last years 'You Agree ? What does that mean...I've won' round back by popular dementia.

With the Final 'You All Believe In God Because I do' Round replacing Last years not so successful 'Egomania Quickfire' round but who needs quickfire when you can post 10,000 words.

And don't forget 'The Cut and Paste Pseudo-Theology Saga Special' live only on IMDB Where the ratings are as High as the Haters.

Right now though over to the man who can prove that you don't think what you really think, you really think like he thinks but not as well obviously because he can prove it....

Yes all the way from The Outer-net and beyond with the CAPITALS of Egocentricity he's backed by unpopular discussion Ladies and Gentlemen

You're wrong and he can prove it.


Over to you ZAROVE !!


And don't forget to rate this movie 10 when you leave just to mess with our rival salted snack of choice 'Haters Taters'







Brought to you by 'Argumints' The mint that won't STFU.

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Well since its back to me, I want o know what the Hell you’re talking about. The point in this thread is that the specific claims made by Zeitgeist are demonstrateably wrong. That’s not saying “The Bible is True and Science is wrong”, that’s saying Zeitgeist makes claims that anyone should be able to disprove using basic evidence and five minuets on Google. The whole point is that specific claims made by Zeitgeist about specific topics are provably not True.

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Your interpretation of the point of this thread is to discredit the contents of this documentary.Something's definitely hit a nerve in there ZAROVE you seem to be taking a cheaply made 'shockumentary' far too literally.It has affected you, like it or not and you are retaliating to it.The thread title merely suggests that the rating has upset some poor fellow...Which in itself is pretty daft.IMDB don't make the ratings up.They are based solely on public votes.If the public say hit it's a hit. (see Transformers)



I found it entertaining. Zeitgeist that is.Some people genuinely believe that there is no such thing as conspiracy and that is also entertaining.

There has (since communication began) and will always be conspiracy regardless of what either of us 'reckon'

Where two people or more want/don't want the same change/action there will be the possibility of a conspiracy.

Obviously this film is an entertaining take on a popular subject hence the vote.


It makes me laugh to see the lengths that 'haters' go to on all IMDB boards, let alone ones about features that challenge so many beliefs.

At what point in the film are we told that all of it is true ?

It's just questioning, which is something that the human mind has evolved to do.

When we stop evolving the human species will die out (look at obesity)

..and to the OP

...please FFS, if a film is allocated a number by a random bunch of strangers

what kind of pathetic abortion does a person have to be to let that upset them.

Just wait til life throws something really challenging at you like running out of toilet paper or missing a soap opera.

Do barcodes depress you ?




If I wanted 'the truth' I'd ask a stand up comedian not a film maker.




Sponsored by 'Argumints' The mint with the hole (and a blue string ?)
*active ingredient > 0.001% 'denatured' ex-girlfriend)

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My interpretation is, some people buy into t his rot and try to defend it.


Better to speak now on how its wrong.

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You know what would really make my day ?

If the film maker came forwards and said that every single word of this was BS and that it was only made to underline the dangers of believing everything you see, hear and read about.

I would completely love that scenario. Truthers looking like idiots, Conspiracy nutjobs looking like idiots and haters looking like idiots.

All for taking an ultra-low budget documentary as gospel.

Dude, that would be poetry.




and while we're on the subject of the truth being so goddam important...

Get the church to pull it's head out of it's arse, quit the *beep* Pedophilia and admit exactly the same thing that any adult knows about the Bible(s)











[/probably lies]

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How would that make the "Haters" look like idiots?

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For not realising the whole point behind it and getting the joke firstly and secondly for taking it seriously enough to get worked up and start bitching about it.Haters are pretty much low-life Trolls anyhow that can't find anything positive to say about anything.








[/probably lies]

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Hater

A label applied to people who are more negative than positive when discussing another person. It most commonly refers to individuals whose negativity is so extreme that it is all-consuming. However, there are various levels and forms of being a hater, ranging from completely dismissing any positive traits or actions, to merely painting a less than flattering picture by using words with negative connotations. Hating is often attributed to jealousy, but just as often, it seems to stem from some other source.

Person A: Ben Gordon is one of the best clutch scorers in the league!
Person B: Gordon is an impressive scorer, but he's still a role player.


Definitely sounds like Zarove.

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Yeah, because we all known Zeitgiest is a person...


...and that sayign it's informaiton si wrong and discussing this means you refuse to see any good in him......

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So what's positive about Zeitgeist?

Also the person distinction is absolutely incredible.

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Division, you missed my pint. Zeitgiets is not a Person. It doesnt matter if I see anythign good in it or not.

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[deleted]

Hi glenavyhotel

The part that I'm more qualified to speak about is the one on the Fed. The guys who made Zeitgeist, deliberately or otherwise, present a view of the central bank system that is misleading to say the least. You can find an excellent critical review of this part here

http://webskeptic.wikidot.com/zeitgeist-federal-reserve

With regards to the Jesus Christ story, some archaeologists and historians claim that common myths and legends that were doing the rounds in the Mediterranean area in the first century were indeed plagiarised to some extent by the early Christians. As an atheist, I have no problem to accept this hypothesis as plausible, or even likely. However, a simple wikipedia search on the ancient gods actually (and assertively) mentioned in Zeitgeist should convince you that most of Zeitgeist's claims are unsubstantiated, when not totally made up. For example, if I remember rightly, Zeitgeist claims that Ra, Horus and other gods were "born on December 25th". That is laughable because:
- It doesn't take into account that Egyptians and Babylonians, for example, did not use the Roman/Julian calendar (which was only introduced in 45BC, long after the Egyptian myths were created) at all. So they didn't have "December".
- There are ZERO mentions in the Bible of Jesus Christ being born on December 25th. I think the most plausible theory of why the Christians decided to celebrate the birth of their god on that date is that they wanted to suppress pagan celebrations of the winter solstice, that would have probably been held around that date. But that's about it. I don't think any mainstream Xtian church has ever claimed that Jesus was really born on that date.

See what I mean? Zeitgeist does not promote free thinking. The authors are all too happy to think on your behalf. The main problem with that is that in the process they feed you a lot of BS to support wacky conspiracy theories that have no connection with reality whatsoever.

It is good to be a free thinker and a sceptic. By all means do not accept any official version of anything blindly. But please look at alternative versions with the same critical eye. Something that often amazes me of many so-called sceptics is that while they are incredibly punctilious with the official history, they are willing to uncritically accept any alternative claims at face value. That goes for 9/11, evolution, global warming, JFK's murder and what have you.

Take care buddy.

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Money, if you know he film makers have been less than honest in their information regardign the Federal reserve, why do you think the bits abotu Jesus Christ ae accurate?

Is it just because your' an Atheost? Because other Atheit who have visited this forum have had major problems with this thing too, its not really just Christians hwo have complaiend.

Noen of the information about Jesus in the film is accurate, and no Archeologist relaly says the early Christians Plagersied Pagan soruces.

Plea dotn say the usual "You are just a Christain so cant handle the Truth" claim... I say this besuse no oen who puts forward the Plagerisation thesis has any credible evidence, and never are they taken seriously.

Itsnot really plausable that the story fo Jesus plagerised elements of Pagan gods before him. Whoel you may be an Athiest, and therefore find thi plausable base odn yru own Religious beelifs, its not really accurate to think this is somehtgn that can be reasonbly argued.

When you look at hte life of Christ as rpesnted int he Gospels, and compare htem to actual Mythology, they don't really compare.


If yu read modern Scholarship in regards tot he origins of Christianity, even from Atheits or Agnostics like Sanders or Ehrman, you end up seeing that the whole idea htat Pagan ideas worked their way nto Christoan beleifs simply isnt tenable at all.

if you'd like I'd show you links to books on Amazon.COm.




A few points.


For example, if I remember rightly, Zeitgeist claims that Ra, Orus and other gods were "born on December 25th". That is laughable because:
- It doesn't take into account that Egyptians and Babylonians, for example, did not use the Roman/Julian calendar (which was only introduced in 45BC, long after the Egyptian myths were created) at all. So they didn't have "December".


To be fair, and to spare yu the onslaught to come, the idea is that the Sun god is born three days afte the Winter Solstice, whih occures on Decmeber the 21st. (This ignroes the reality that the Winter Solstice also occures on the 22nd in some years, or ven the 20th.)

When Zeitgeist claims that these godswere Born on December 25th they don't mean the ancinet civilisatiosn sued the Roman Calender, they simply ean they were bron ont he sday we now call December 25th.

Its still full of holes, and the fact is thst most of hte gods hey name aren't really born on December 25th at all. EG, Horus was more liekly bron in September in our Calender. Most don't have Borhtdays at all. (Just like most really weren't sun gods.)

Still, just a heads up on this.





- There are ZERO mentions in the Bible of Jesus Christ being born on December 25th. I think the most plausible theory of why the Christians decided to celebrate the birth of their god on that date is that they wanted to suppress pagan celebrations of the winter solstice, that would have probably been held around that date. But that's about it. I don't think any mainstream Xtian church has ever claimed that Jesus was really born on that date.




From this post I can assume that you have some negative sentment toward Christianity, hat hasn't si blidned you that yu'd buy into these nonsense claims, bu that allows you to generally accept the less flstterign depictiosn fo Hisotyr you see elsewhere.

Actually the idea that Christaisn wanted ot suppress Pagan Practices makes them sound rather odious, but the Truth is that Christans didn't ty to Suppress anything. This wanst abotu control. The reason Decmeber 25th was celibrated by Christaisn as the Birhtday of Christ does tie to a Pagan celibration though, but not because he Churhc wanted to suppress a Pagan pracitce to gain control over people. At th time they were Slaves. ROme had a custom that said all Slaves were temporarily freed and all laburrs coul set aside their work durign the festival of Saturn, or Saternalia. This was a Time when the god Saturn was worshipped and Honoured for givign Humanity Civilisation, and Agriculture.

Christians were mainly slaves at this time, and foudn hemselves free from persecution and from topil. However, they did not esnt to participate in a festival to Honour a false god. So, they decided to create an alernative festical for themselves in order to make use of the time off whilst still not participatign in the worship of Saturn.

It wasn't that they tried to suppress the Pagan practice, it as that they simply didn wsnt to participate but still waned ot hsve their own fun.

Thats not really as bad as your version. I really dont know why peopel loke to impute onto Christianity such negative traits.



See what I mean? Zeitgeist does not promote free thinking. The authors are all too happy to think on your behalf. The main problem with that is that in the process they feed you a lot of BS to support wacky conspiracy theories that have no connection with reality whatsoever.


Agreed, and a poitn I've tried to make often. Just because they say they want to let you thk for yoruself doesnt mean they really do.



It is good to be a free thinker and a sceptic. By all means do not accept any official version of anything blindly. But please look at alternative versions with the same critical eye. Something that often amazes me of many so-called sceptics is that while they are incredibly punctilious with the official history, they are willing to uncritically accept any alternative claims at face value. That goes for 9/11, evolution, global warming, JFK's murder and what have you.

Take care buddy.



I coudn't agree more.

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Hi Zarove

why do you think the bits abotu Jesus Christ ae accurate?


I don't, and I think I made that clear. I was only saying that the general idea of religions/myths taking elements from each other is plausible, and has happened before (Romans "translating" Zeus into Jupiter, Islam making Jesus a prophet). You are right that I dislike Christianity (and all the other religions), so I probably tend to be biased against it. But to be honest, that's a different debate that I have no time to engage in (just in case you're tempted to try and convince me) ;-)


To be fair, and to spare yu the onslaught to come, the idea is that the Sun god is born three days afte the Winter Solstice, whih occures on Decmeber the 21st. (This ignroes the reality that the Winter Solstice also occures on the 22nd in some years, or ven the 20th.)


Good point, I shouldn't have have been that literal (doh!). Maybe I was following the film-makers's example when they equate (not in Aramaic or Latin but in English!) Sun = Son. To avoid confusion, the film-makers should have said "4 days after the winter solstice" but I guess "December 25th" produces a bigger shock, which was probably the intention.

Either way, that doesn't invalidate my argument that Zeitgeist is full of inaccurate, misleading or downright made-up information, since as you point out there does not seem to be any much support for the wild claims that the movie makes about Horus, Mythras, Zoroaster and all those weird and wonderful ancient deities and prophets.

Take care and thanks for being civilised :-)

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Money-


Hi Zarove


Hello.



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why do you think the bits abotu Jesus Christ ae accurate?
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I don't, that's what I'm saying. I was only meaning that the general idea of religions/myths taking elements from each other is plausible, and has happened before.



But, not in Christianity. CHristianity s a direct emergance from Firta Century Judaism, and the whole Pagan Borrowing thesis is relaly no longer considered.




You are right that I dislike Christianity (and the other religions), so I probably tend to be biased against it. But to be honest, that's a different debate that I have no time to engage in (just in case you're tempted to try and convince me) ;-)



I just woner why Atheits such as yourself have ot be Biased agsnt all "Religion"... its especially irksome given that yoru own beelifs are a Religion. No, I did not say "Atheism is a Relgiion" and need not hear abotu how if Atheism isa Religion than not collectign stamps is a hobby...


... the point is, being an Atheist doenst mwan you have no Religion. Religion is simply defined as a Set of Beweifs about the Nature of our existance. Religion is not defiend as a Synonym for Theism. I never udnerstood why Athiests think they aren't Religious by the virtue of their Athiesm when they still have beleifs regardign the same topics as Relgiion that covers the same grounds.

Plus, the hwole "I am an Ahtiest so I don't lke Religion" mindset has other problems... why? Most of the tlak about he Dangers of Relgiion are Polemic and ignroe that the same probelmshappen withthe...Ahem, "MNonreligious", EG, peopel who blidnly take everyhtign Richard Dawkisn says at Face Value and repeat it endlessly. THey arent relaly thinkgn for themselves. THey also arent ending the supposed ocnflict that Relgiion causs in society, they are exhasperaitng it by outtign yet another beleif systenm out here and attackign all the Nonbeleivers in it.


I fidn the hwole dislike of CHristianity or other Religiosn a rather boorish position.

I don't hate Buddhists, or Muslims, or Jews, or even Secular Humanists, or Objectivists.

WHy shoudl any oen fthem hate me for beign a Christain or anythign else?

And given the number of very rational persosn in any given beleif system, and how they have given their beleifs a lot fo thought, the other attakc that tis all Irratinal is also rather boorish.






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To be fair, and to spare yu the onslaught to come, the idea is that the Sun god is born three days afte the Winter Solstice, whih occures on Decmeber the 21st. (This ignroes the reality that the Winter Solstice also occures on the 22nd in some years, or ven the 20th.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Good point, I should have thought about that (doh!). However, also remember that the Romans did have the month "December" before the Julian calendar, but it only had 27 (or was it 29?) days and it was placed slightly differently. So their December 25th did not coincide with ours. To avoid confusion, the film-makers should have said "4 days after the winter solstice" but I guess "December 25th" produces a bigger shock, which was probably the intention.



Its every three days, or so the story goes... and don't worry, I've just been at htis a bit longer than you. You'll find its the same arguments used endleslsy so learn the 25 or 30 argumetnsthey have nd your set for life.


I neer said it was really viable, its jist a usual coutnerargument and in the interest of Honesty I felt I had to put that out there.



Either way, that doesn't invalidate my argument that Zeitgeist is full of inaccurate, misleading or downright made-up information, since as you point out there does not seem to be any ancient text that supports the wild claims that the movie makes about Horus, Mythras, Zoroastro and all those weird and wonderful ancient deities.



True, and I didnt man to udnermine yoru post as in this matter we are proverbially on the same side.

Still, I prefer accuracy and despite beign often accused of partisanism, still like to keep honest whthte other parties arugments. Unless they are so ridiculisu I just Troll.




Take care and thanks for being civilised :-)



No worries and keep it up.

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I just woner why Atheits such as yourself have ot be Biased agsnt all "Religion"... its especially irksome given that yoru own beelifs are a Religion. No, I did not say "Atheism is a Relgiion" and need not hear abotu how if Atheism isa Religion than not collectign stamps is a hobby...


... the point is, being an Atheist doenst mwan you have no Religion. Religion is simply defined as a Set of Beweifs about the Nature of our existance. Religion is not defiend as a Synonym for Theism. I never udnerstood why Athiests think they aren't Religious by the virtue of their Athiesm when they still have beleifs regardign the same topics as Relgiion that covers the same grounds.

(...)

I fidn the hwole dislike of CHristianity or other Religiosn a rather boorish position.

I don't hate Buddhists, or Muslims, or Jews, or even Secular Humanists, or Objectivists.

WHy shoudl any oen fthem hate me for beign a Christain or anythign else?

And given the number of very rational persosn in any given beleif system, and how they have given their beleifs a lot fo thought, the other attakc that tis all Irratinal is also rather boorish.


Balls, Zarove, I wasn't counting on you replying so quickly. I edited my post to make me look less stupid (failing miserably, as usual) and you totally gave me away. Oh well, *beep* happens I suppose.

"if atheism is a religion then not collecting stamps is a hobby". Hahaha, nice one, I didn't know it, so thank you. I will have to endlessly repeat that now ;-P

Well, I'm not sure that your definition of religion is consistent with
many English dictionaries out there, but if that's what you believe that's fine. I certainly don't hate you for that, and I don't hate you for being a Christian. I don't think I hate anyone just for being a religious person, actually. As long as you don't try to limit or suppress individual liberties (gay rights or freedom of speech spring to mind), and you're not planning any holy crusade or jihad, you're pretty much well off my hatred list. And I think I can talk on behalf of most, if not all, of my friends who are agnostic/atheist.

Now we are severely off-topic, but I just felt I needed to comment on the hatred argument. Probably the Religulous board, for example, would be more appropriate for this sort of conversation.

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Actully the definitionfo Religion is apropos here. Consider, for a moment, that Zeitgiets Part One says that Relgiion is all abotu Midn control...


...That said, the Standard Dictionary defines Relgiion six ways, and the firts one is "A set of bee;lfis about the nature, Origin, and Purpose of existance", though most usu;ay get cauht up in the Esp. if it invovles creaiton by a SUprhuman Agency", and htink the Esp. means that a Superhumn Agency is a requirement fo a Relgiion. It snot.

If you visit the Stanford Enclyclopedia of Philosophy, the entry on Religion actually goes into deeper detail, and woidl stae that Relgiion is an Amorphous term with no fixed meaning. Stuill, any codified Philosophical System that basiclaly covers the same grounds as Relgiion is a Relgiion, which inclues the "Nonreligious Philosphies" that exit as Alternatives to Religion, such as Secular Humanism. By Definition, it is a Relgiion ebcuase it deals in the Fundamental Principe sof our existance and basic way we approach life.

Thats why I say everyone is Religious, it snot some unique definition of mine, nor is it to be disingenious on my part. Its what is True.




Also, the whole gay rights issue is overblown, on Lords Of THe Blogs I'm arguogn agaisnt the contrast of Homoseuxality ot race or Relgiion. No evidence supports it beign innate or unchangab, and, as a Libertarian, I think people relaly shoudl be free to morlaly disaprove f such thinmgs, and generlaly oppose further Gay rights, so you likly wont liek me for that. Then again...

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I think people relaly shoudl be free to morlaly disaprove f such thinmgs, and generlaly oppose further Gay rights, so you likly wont liek me for that.


Well, in that case I certainly do not like you for that. But not for being religious.

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Why do you generally opposing furthering gay rights?

Also, as to my comment before, what was incredible is your ability to miss the point. Which you then further compounded by projecting this notion on to me, as though I actually missed your point.

When people refer to thier cars as "she's a beauty" are they wrong? When people refer to their god as "him" or "he" are they wrong?

Think long and hard about that.

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Monvey, you are also Religious. Again, being an Atheist doesnt make one lack Religion. In fact, it is yoru Religion that makes ypu so adamant toward gay rights.



That said, read below.


Division-


Why do you generally opposing furthering gay rights?



Becaue at this point is has undercut anyoen elses rights. Laws that make Hoosexuality into a category like Race and say one can't discriminate agsisnt someone base don Sexual prientation ultimatley violate peopel s Freedom fo Association and Freedom of Speech.

I've always been a large supporter of limited Governance, and alloing peopel who own somehtign to have direct power over how said osmethign is used.

This means if they want ot hire only redheads, they can. Also, they can refus4 buisness to redheads if hey want. its thier store, they own it.

Gay Rights Legislation hinders this, as it forced people to act againt heir own will, and often agaisnt thier ocncinece.



Also, as to my comment before, what was incredible is your ability to miss the point. Which you then further compounded by projecting this notion on to me, as though I actually missed your point.

When people refer to thier cars as "she's a beauty" are they wrong? When people refer to their god as "him" or "he" are they wrong?

Think long and hard about that.



Explain the relevance to this.

My point is that the Film Zeitgeist is wrogn in its information.


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In fact, it is yoru Religion that makes ypu so adamant toward gay rights.


Zarove, you DO NOT and CANNOT know what makes me so adamant towards gay rights, for the sole reason that I haven't explained that point and that you do not know me personally. Period. You might think you know, but that'd be pure prejudice, sorry.

Monvey, you are also Religious.


According to the definition of religion as "a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny" (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=religion), I am not religious, thank you very much.

You keep using your chosen meaning for the word "religion", which you know is not my chosen meaning. That makes communication a lot more difficult than it should be.

You could argue that I might have done the same when I called you religious, but I understand that you would describe yourself as religious whether you use your proposed definition or mine. However, I am religious only when you use your definition, so I hope you'll be kind enough to stop calling me that. Thanks. :-)

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Moveny, one thing you’re gonna have to learn to accept about ZAROVE is that he operates on very blatant prejudices, which he’ll justify (and deny) with twisted logic that is very narrow-scoped in nature. Therefore you will never get him to stop calling you religious, because in his world this would be wrong. At best if you asked him nicely he might stop, but he will still conceive of everyone (and by extension you) as religious whether he verbalizes it to you or not. He does not think of communication as one person exchanging ideas with another person, he sees it as his ego’s idea of absolute facts and rights and wrongs. Subsequently, no matter what you say, he will generalize the idea of “religion” to fit whatever it is that makes you so adamant about gay rights. The substantial reasons will not matter to him, because you’re playing in his ego. The only thing that will matter to him is that it still fits the “fact” that it’s driven by your “religion.”

Becaue at this point is has undercut anyoen elses rights

Please do better at explaining how gay rights undercuts anyone else rights. The right to be a bigoted *beep* is not an acceptable answer.
Laws that make Hoosexuality into a category like Race and say one can't discriminate agsisnt someone base don Sexual prientation ultimatley violate peopel s Freedom fo Association and Freedom of Speech.

Are you serious? Really?
What do you mean “Freedom of Association?” I can associate white people as pompous pricks all I want in spite of race being categorized by the government. It might make me ignorant, but it doesn’t make me a criminal.

I've always been a large supporter of limited Governance, and alloing peopel who own somehtign to have direct power over how said osmethign is used. This means if they want ot hire only redheads, they can. Also, they can refus4 buisness to redheads if hey want. its thier store, they own it.

So let me get this straight. You actually think a legitimate reason for being against the rights of gays is so that other business owners can freely discriminate against them without the government telling them to stop being *beep* And in your world view, you think that this is not only acceptable, but ideal. You think that all business should arbitrarily discriminate on anything based on the sole fact that they own the business? And you really don’t see the problem with this?

Gay Rights Legislation hinders this, as it forced people to act againt heir own will, and often agaisnt thier ocncinece.

But it’s the will of gays to receive the same benefits as straight couples do when married. They are forced into being denied their will. If you were actually so concerned about people’s wills, like you claim you do in your logic, then what makes the will of straights trump the will of gays?
Explain the relevance to this.

It’s relevant because it establishes that the term “hater” fits you perfectly (about Zeitgeist). It also establishes that the distinction you made, to attempt to make me looking foolish, was completely sad and lacking in wit.

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Division-



Moveny, one thing you’re gonna have to learn to accept about ZAROVE is that he operates on very blatant prejudices, which he’ll justify (and deny) with twisted logic that is very narrow-scoped in nature. Therefore you will never get him to stop calling you religious, because in his world this would be wrong. At best if you asked him nicely he might stop, but he will still conceive of everyone (and by extension you) as religious whether he verbalizes it to you or not. He does not think of communication as one person exchanging ideas with another person, he sees it as his ego’s idea of absolute facts and rights and wrongs. Subsequently, no matter what you say, he will generalize the idea of “religion” to fit whatever it is that makes you so adamant about gay rights. The substantial reasons will not matter to him, because you’re playing in his ego. The only thing that will matter to him is that it still fits the “fact” that it’s driven by your “religion.”


AND... Here is a Link for you.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html


I suggest you read it.





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Becaue at this point is has undercut anyoen elses rights
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Please do better at explaining how gay rights undercuts anyone else rights. The right to be a bigoted *beep* is not an acceptable answer.



Actually it is an answer. If we triuly beleive in a Spcety of Free Association, then peopel shoudl be able to choose who they cotnract business with.

It really is that simple.

Oh and, begn morlaly opposed to Homosexuality is not really Bigoted. Homosexuality is a behaviour, not a Race, and is a Sexual practice, not a Religion or Culture or Nationality. Usign the term "Bigotry" to describe opposition to Homosexuality may generate emotional responces, but its actulaly not accurate and it also really ignores the concerns of those hwo are so opposed. It also leads tot he misconception that thoe ho ar eopposed ot such somehow hate individual Homosexuals, which isn't always True either.

EG, one can oppose Homosexual Behaviour whilst still beign close friends with a Homosexual, in the same way that oen cna oppose SMokign or Drinkign yet be friends with a smoker or a Drinker.





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Laws that make Hoosexuality into a category like Race and say one can't discriminate agsisnt someone base don Sexual prientation ultimatley violate peopel s Freedom fo Association and Freedom of Speech.
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Are you serious? Really?



Yes, I am serious.



What do you mean “Freedom of Association?” I can associate white people as pompous pricks all I want in spite of race being categorized by the government. It might make me ignorant, but it doesn’t make me a criminal.



I mean, if I own a store I shoudl have the right to refuse business ot whomsoever I want. THis shoudl be my inviolable righjt becuase I own the Store and its mine. If you are black and hate white peopel you shoudln't be forced to do business with them either.

This is simply Libertarianism.

Free Association also means I can be friends with whomsoever I like, or avoid tlakign to whomsoever I like.

Freedom fo Speech means I can say what I will.


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I've always been a large supporter of limited Governance, and alloing peopel who own somehtign to have direct power over how said osmethign is used. This means if they want ot hire only redheads, they can. Also, they can refus4 buisness to redheads if hey want. its thier store, they own it.
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So let me get this straight. You actually think a legitimate reason for being against the rights of gays is so that other business owners can freely discriminate against them without the government telling them to stop being *beep* And in your world view, you think that this is not only acceptable, but ideal.



I never aid it was ideal, but if you follow the claims made by Modern society, its the only real means to accomplish what is promised.

If I own somehting, I shoudl have power over it, and if I have Free Association as a Right, then I should be able to excesise this on my own property.



You think that all business should arbitrarily discriminate on anything based on the sole fact that they own the business? And you really don’t see the problem with this?



I see it this way. They own the Store and the Land, its theirs, they may do wiht it as they please.


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Gay Rights Legislation hinders this, as it forced people to act againt heir own will, and often agaisnt thier ocncinece.
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But it’s the will of gays to receive the same benefits as straight couples do when married.


They can't anyway since Marriage is a Natural Institution not one created by Society. Society can't decree that Hoosexual Couples can produe Offspring from now on, for example.

The whoel "Marriage Equality" isuse is pure RHetoric.



They are forced into being denied their will.


Which doens't really touch on what I've said since Store Owners are too. Under current Laws Store Owners must serve peopel the the Government has clssified as Protected whether they want ot or not.

So what?


If you were actually so concerned about people’s wills, like you claim you do in your logic, then what makes the will of straights trump the will of gays?



Presumption on your part.

By the way, I shoudl remidn you that I am also a Monarhcist, not a Democrat.

I think peopel shoudl have the power over that which is their own, whih is nto the same as the right to exersise their will on everything else.




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Explain the relevance to this.
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It’s relevant because it establishes that the term “hater” fits you perfectly (about Zeitgeist).



Rejetign the claism of a DOcumentary Film, and explaining how the Films claims are bogus, is not Hatred.




It also establishes that the distinction you made, to attempt to make me looking foolish, was completely sad and lacking in wit.



Wit wans't the intention, but the distinction is Valid.

I am not a Hater, I simply reject the claism of this Film, because I have evidence that shows it to not be True.

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Monvey-

In fact, it is yoru Religion that makes ypu so adamant toward gay rights.
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Zarove, you DO NOT and CANNOT know what makes me so adamant towards gay rights, for the sole reason that I haven't explained that point and that you do not know me personally. Period. You might think you know, but that'd be pure prejudice, sorry.



its not Prejudice. But, if Religion is defiend as our fundamental andbasic beleifs about our existance, and our morality is generally derived from such beleifs, it stands to reason that everyones moral positions will ultimatley be rooted in their Religion.

Thats my point.




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Monvey, you are also Religious.
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According to the definition of religion as "a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny" (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=religion), I am not religious, thank you very much.



I always wondered why peopel are offended when I saythey are Religious.

However, please follow these links.

This is Stanford's Encyclopedia of Philosophy..


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/philosophy-religion/


This is an essay on it.

http://www.teachingaboutreligion.org/WhitePapers/Larue_whatisreligion. htm


This is what I am discussing.

By the definition you listed, peopel weren't Religiosu until the 18th zCentury, sicne no one beelived in Supernatural Powers till then. yes theybeelive din God and Angels and such, and earlir Pagans beleived in a plethora of gos, but none were undrstood to be Supernatural.



You keep using your chosen meaning for the word "religion", which you know is not my chosen meaning. That makes communication a lot more difficult than it should be.



I use the accurate definition of the erm, and its far mroe useful when you consider that the vast majority of the time peopel use words mroe for emotional reaction than for thought. Relifion has been given a negative connotation in too many minds, and many Athists particulalry seem to have adopted the idea that Religion in and of itself is evil and they shoudl argue agksnt beign Religious. The term itself is mroe a viseral one signifyign a malevolent force in Humanity that needs to be ended. However, when they explain why Religion is evil, trhe same problems they see in it exists in their own beeliofs. EG, Rival Religions may cause peopel to be hostile towards each other. But, so may Rival purely Nonreligiosu Philosophy (If you exclude everythgin form Religion other htan Theistic beleifs.) Secular Humanism can cuse oen tobe Hostile towards both "the Religious" and "the Nonreligious" who arne't Secular Humanists, such as Objectivists. Another problem Religion creates is Tribalism, but the same is said of the nonreligiosu alternatives. How about not thinkign for oneself? All one needs to do is visit Richard Dakins website and se how his adorign fans wuoe him, and simply repeat what he says.

The disinction is thouroughly synthetic.

Religion has no absolute poeer by vitue of beign Rligion. Religion really is just about iour beelis abotu ourselves and the world we live in, and anyoen who complains about Religion will ultimatley have to either ignroe the reality thattheir alternativees to Religion have he same Traits, and yeild the sme results, even the Negative results, or they will have to accept that these matters aren't as cut and dry as they'd like them to be.




You could argue that I might have done the same when I called you religious, but I understand that you would describe yourself as religious whether you use your proposed definition or mine. However, I am religious only when you use your definition, so I hope you'll be kind enough to stop calling me that. Thanks. :-)



I can't, because the definition I use is the techically accurate one,and besides my enture premise rests on it.

Why is it so offensive?

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I always wondered why peopel are offended when I saythey are Religious.


let me explain that to you.

Let's suppose that I call you a moron. You say politely, please do not call me a moron. But I say, no moron, you are a moron, because I possess a dictionary written by a prestigious academic that says that everybody with your spelling is a moron. Therefore the most accurate thing I can call you is a moron.

Do you know what would that make ME? A moron.


Zarove, I do not think that you have any other purpose in life than annoying people, so I give up, you win, you annoyed me big time, well done. Good luck with the rest of your life son.

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Moveny-

I always wondered why peopel are offended when I saythey are Religious.
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let me explain that to you.

Let's suppose that I call you a moron. You say politely, please do not call me a moron. But I say, no moron, you are a moron, because I possess a dictionary written by a prestigious academic that says that everybody with your spelling is a moron. Therefore the most accurate thing I can call you is a moron.

Do you know what would that make ME? A moron.



But that really dosn't equate to what I've said.




Zarove, I do not think that you have any other purpose in life than annoying people, so I give up, you win, you annoyed me big time, well done. Good luck with the rest of your life son.


I don't do this to annoy, I do this because I dislike the discourse set in modern times, in which peopel haven't really though about matters.

Look at yoru own statements. You want me to not call you Religious, and to sdoptthe definition of Religion you use, in orer to mae communicaion easier. But, the definition you ue has been responcible for an attrocious amunt of poorly thouht out arguments, as I said before. Further, if you adopted my definition of Religion, you'd have the same definition as I id and thus eliminate the problem. Why shoudl I abandon mine and go to yours?

My reason for not, after all, is because people seem to think Religion is a force into itself and the Nonreligious peopel liek you dont suffer the same pitfalls, yet you clealry do.

The whole point is to show that its really just our beleifs, with nothig eperate, and to open minds to possibilities.

That, and to be technically accurate.

So why are you really annoyed?

What is it about beign called Religious that actually offends you?

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ZAROVE,Why do you keep telling people who state they are not religious that they are.Are you really that conceited to pretend to know more about a person (often after reading a single post) than they know themselves.

Is having faith in yourself really so difficult ?

Some people don't base their entire perception of morality on one or two 'mostly fictional' books.If they did I'd strongly recommend Aesop's Fables and A Brief History of Time.

Most Human beings know right from wrong without a fear mechanism.(The Devil, Hell, *yawn* etc)

Maybe you have high Dimethyltryptamine levels. (See 'The Spirit Molecule')

I'm not trying to put you down here, just quit dealing Jesus in the Zeitgeist forums FFS

Save it for 'Passion of the Christ' or whatever...

You might as well stand in the doorway of a vegetarian restaurant handing out bacon.

The opening section talks about religious Transmogrification.That is the evolution of belief systems.Argue all you like but the proof you so adamantly profess to know is in the very foundations of your own churches.

Religious buildings are very often built on top of each other to mask the old with the new.Just as new pharaohs often defaced images of the previous rulers.It's been going on for a damn site longer than 2000 years and will continue as man's needs change to suit his surroundings.

As I remember.Pagan was actually a Christian insult for worshippers of other, 'lesser' Gods.

Organised religion sucks bigtime.

How dare people impose their own personal 'agendas' on others.The pope is a Catholic ex-Nazi but it's not the Nazi bit of that sentence that disturbs me.
Ignoring The child molesting clergy is far more frightening and sinister.

We're unique creatures...Capable of incredible things.Without Gods and Devils.

Why spoil that.



[/probably lies]

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VS-



ZAROVE,Why do you keep telling people who state they are not religious that they are.Are you really that conceited to pretend to know more about a person (often after reading a single post) than they know themselves.



WHat I know is thatthe definition fo beign Relgiiosu doens't mean oen has to beelvi ein a god of some sort, and beign an Athiest is not he same as beign Irreligious. I also know that the beleifs htey do hoed insteadof Relgiion address the same topics and serve the same funciton as Relgiion would, thus relaly leadign oen to woner what the difference is.

This is most highlighted when hey discuss the problems caused by Relgiion, which inevitbaly is also foudn n their own Non-Relgiious Philosophy.

The whole point is that there is no distuinction.


Usign the word "Relgiion" in such a way as to act a if yoru own eelfis arent included doenst make them fundamentlaly different.



Is having faith in yourself really so difficult ?



Whose to say I don't?



Some people don't base their entire perception of morality on one or two 'mostly fictional' books.If they did I'd strongly recommend Aesop's Fables and A Brief History of Time.



So what you'r sayign is that you compleltey ignroed what I said Religion is...?



That said, even the Atheists tend to get their ideas form books or other osurces and learn them.



Most Human beings know right from wrong without a fear mechanism.(The Devil, Hell, *yawn* etc)



But only the Militant Ahtietss seem to say that Relgiion needs a Fear Mechanism to funciton, which it doens't.




Maybe you have high Dimethyltryptamine levels. (See 'The Spirit Molecule')

I'm not trying to put you down here, just quit dealing Jesus in the Zeitgeist forums FFS


COudn't I ask you to stop dealign withhtese forums?



Save it for 'Passion of the Christ' or whatever...



WHy? The Passion Of The CHrist isn't a Conspriacy Theory movie.



You might as well stand in the doorway of a vegetarian restaurant handing out bacon.



I actually happen to be a Vegitarian.

That said, my replies are still based on Fact.




The opening section talks about religious Transmogrification.That is the evolution of belief systems.Argue all you like but the proof you so adamantly profess to know is in the very foundations of your own churches.



No its not. The whle point that I made here is that Zeitgiest relaly didn't present any factual arguments, and the claism it makes abtuthe Origins of Christainity are false. As this remaisn True, nothign in any Chruchwill bear out the Claism fo this film.

And oen doens't have to be Christian to know this.




Religious buildings are very often built on top of each other to mask the old with the new.Just as new pharaohs often defaced images of the previous rulers.It's been going on for a damn site longer than 2000 years and will continue as man's needs change to suit his surroundings.




But a lot fo Chruches are bult ove odl Hosues, and a ot are built over open fields no oen used for naything.

Even those hat wer ebuilt over former palces of worhsip for naother Relgiion doens't prove Cristaintiy itself ha Pagan roots. Any mro so than I cna argue that Hinduism was based on Christianity if a Hindu Temple is built over a site where once sood a Church.




As I remember.Pagan was actually a Christian insult for worshippers of other, 'lesser' Gods.



Actually the temr oigionally meant "COuntry folk", and was generlaly absorbed into the meanign fo "Polytheists" becuase they were the last to convert to Christendom.

It wans't an insult.


Organised religion sucks bigtime.


Not as mich as Hisorical Ignorance.



How dare people impose their own personal 'agendas' on others.



This is a bit of a stretch. Not only do you basiclaly asusme that all Orignised Relgiion must be iposed onto ithers, which sinot True, you forget thatimposign thigns onto others happens in other thigns besides Relgiion.

Oen an have an Originsed Relgiion and not impose it on anyone, and one cna have a Political Ideoloy and force everyoen into it.

Thats mroe a problem with indiviual peopel and tolerance, not Orginised Relgiion per se.




The pope is a Catholic ex-Nazi but it's not the Nazi bit of that sentence that disturbs me.


The Pope had no choice. As Joseph Ratzinger, a boy in NAZI Germany, membership in Hitler Youth as made COmpulsory. If you relaly want ot hodl this agaisnt him, you also have to hodl it agsnt every Wite German Male over the age of 68.





Ignoring The child molesting clergy is far more frightening and sinister.



But, the Pope didn't o this. The whoel "Pedophile Priest" Scandal is also overblown, as there are far fewer Pedophile Pruetss than Pediophile School teachers,a ndmost absue happens in Families.

No oen ever mocks those htigns htiough.

The Pedophile Priets Routine is just an easy and cheap shot, base don popular conception, not reality.

Also, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wa snto Pope at he time, and DID do soemthign abotu it when he became Pope.




We're unique creatures...Capable of incredible things.Without Gods and Devils.

Why spoil that.



We arne't capanle of eisance iwhtout God, though.

So why try topretned otherwise?

See how easy such claism can be made?


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That may have been the worst grammatical performance I've ever attempted to decipher.

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Why do people see how I spell words unaided and then profess how bad my Grammar is?

Grammar and spelling are not the same thing, you know. My spelling of words is bad, my Grammar is not.

Oh, by the way, I am Dyslexic. Unless aided by a Friend, my posts come to the board misspelled.

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You retards writing 500 word responses on an IMDB message board trying to look savant and informed. Not a single person gives a flying ... what you think.




look at me, im hot http://www.salon.com/sept97/mothers/obese970922.gif - stephcha

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Hmmm I don't have any comment from you regarding the 9/11 tragedy??
Why is that???
I'm not interested in the god story...hey you may be right but you could also be wrong we will all find out when our time is up.
Regarding the monetary system please watch "Inside Job" Please then tell me how this documentary is ALL fiction regarding that subject...again the questions asked in that film are never answered by those responsible, just like 9/11 they cant all be wrong??
Can a movie/documentary such as this one all be complete lies...hmm (not saying you have claimed that is the case btw) I'm not asking for this movie to promote free thinking I just wont an honest logical answer to the 9/11 disaster which I believe was done by an American government, based on evidence and logic not because of the facts of this film. But on others testimony other facts AS WELL AS the facts put out by this film???(bomb like explosions heard in downstairs basement by numerous witnesses as stated on tv interviews by multiple news stations also heard from multiple witnesses, also a plane has never made a skyscraper ever collapse in the way described in the report put out by the investigation team when it has hit a structure like the towers...never!! (fact) And then there is the way it fell...comon!! Was Norads time response to the airplane just unlucky, or unprofessional?? There are many others....sigh what I am getting at is the fact that a lot of facts the American government of the time said had happened, have been since proven wrong by fact. This interest in these facts have been promoted to be looked at by documentaries such as this one..why is that bad?? Why is it that a powerful nation such as the USA claim that the government that is voted in (by its citizens) tells such lies(in my opinion) regarding 9/11. And folkes like yourself belive it to always be true when logic dictates it to be not that way??

Do you believe that what the government reported regarding about what happened in the towers that fateful day to be true?? And if so please explain why you think it to be this way....I have looked at the evidence of what I have claimed and to me its a no brainer, but that is just me...I hope I'm wrong.

Hi I'm Twice Nightly! Tonight's news...
Is a severed foot an alternate stocking filler?

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Ah, Now I get it, I see you are one those conspiracy theory nuts, that explains your deteriorated mental faction! What are you 16? 2 minutes well spent....

...Say Whatever You Want, I love listening to dumb people speak...

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moveny: this film is a cartload of manure

you: what reasons do you have to give to support your opinion?

moveny: BECAUSE I SAID SO!!!

you: I'm glad we're on the same page regarding free thinking

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It says a lot about the US that this crap gets such a high score. These idiots want to believe controversial things but they don't check if it's true. It's exactly like religion.

*beep* Zeitgeist, pseudoscientific crap and lies.

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It's exactly like religion.


I am glad you made that comparison.

my voting history
http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=45098238

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I put it to you that that is the point. The movie serves a double purpose of waking you up from one lie, then getting you to question itself.

It's simply intended to be thought provoking, something that a lot of people in this world seriously need. To stop just living like robots.

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Whether or not this movie is or is not fully true or correct, the fact that there is something seriously wrong with how the world is run is still fully true.

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