MovieChat Forums > The Ides of March (2011) Discussion > Morris didn't do anything wrong

Morris didn't do anything wrong


Really, he had sex with a 20 years old woman, a very mature woman who knew what was going on. Worst case scenario he betrayed his wife and he needs to get straight with her, but he didn't do anything wrong to the country, the sexual relationships of politicians shouldn't have be taken out of the personal context, even if the guy is a cheating bastard. The movie is amazing to expose the hipocrisy, the lines of Stephen saying to him something like "you can start wars, you can invade another countries and you can take soldiers to get killed, you just can't have sex with the intern" were amazing.

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It used to be in the case in the FBI that if an on staff agent was caught committing adultery they were often suspended pending a hearing and could be fired for it. The reasoning being that if they were willing to be unfaithful to their spouse there was no guarantee that they wouldn't be unfaithful to their country. I think the same type of reasoning would apply here pretty effectively.

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It would seem as if the easiest way to uncover wrongdoing committed by politicians would be to follow the money trail--for corruption originates primarily from corporate America in their support for career politicians--some of whom will put winning the electorate above most anything else. However, lack of transparency makes uncovering the truth much more difficult than it should be. Until we get serious about campaign finance reform, holding guilty parties accountable and limiting the power of corporate lobbyists--corruption amongst politicians will always be inseparable--especially nowadays when it could take over $100 million to win the presidency. So perhaps Stephen should have added, "you can put special interests way ahead of the needs of your constituents" to that list.

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in my openion cheating itself was not such a big deal. the way he treated her after that was worst. he didnt help her with the pregnancy thing, kept calling her in the middle of the night for god knows what reason and at the end called her a lier who is trying to abuse stephene ! what a bastard ...

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[deleted]

Let's not forget that the girl is the daughter of the Chief of the Democratic national Committee.

At one point, molly says "Morris works for my father" or something to that effect. It's dismisse by Stephen, but you got to figure her affair, abortion and death would make it count.

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From some of the posts on this (really interesting) thread, I think I've come up with a way to generalise the problem you're referring to. I agree, personal matters should not be *beep* around in politics, and a man can still cheat on his wife and do great things for the country. We have had numerous examples in the past (a lot of Democrats, but let's think outside of the box here, a lot of pretty much any leader in the world, from France (Sarkozy, Chirac), to hell of a lot of other examples in the world), and they have done great (and terrible things for the country and the world.

I think a few problems here are that in the spotlight of politics and celebrity, people are less forgiving. In the adult world, people are less forgiving and don't show compassion. Stephen Meyers/Ryan Gosling meets up with Paul Zara/Paul Giamatti, and BOOM! HE FREAKIN' BETRAYED OUR TRUST! HOW COULD HE POSSIBLY DO SOMETHING THAT WOULD DRIVE THE CAMPAIGN INTO THE APOCALYSE!!! I MEAN WOW! A 5 MIN MEETING IS THE END OF THE WORLD, AND HE WILL BURN IN HELL FOR IT!! hahaha...come on, we all know why Philip Seymour Hoffman fired Ryan Gosling. He was paranoid, self-centred, and wanted to flex his muscles and show him who is boss. He didn't have an ounce of forgiveness in him. The same goes for politicians that make personal mistakes. People put them up for such high standards, and expect them to abide by it. Politicians are not perfect human beings. A good looking guy with libido and a few arrogant thoughts will make a mistake. But will the media or the poeple focus on his stance against the war in Iraq, the US dependence on Saudi oil, and innovation in technology, when he *beep* another girl? No! Because we're looking for sensation. Or we're looking for someone to blame for our own shortcomings. Or we're tired of the political system that is already here, and are just plain cynical.

All I'm saying is that (and my thought develop as I write), making mistakes is human nature, and we do not accept human nature, we will not go forward. If we do not accept human nature, we will still pay attention to who *beep* who on the election campaign, or in the Oval Office, not how much that guy who *beep* another girl spent time on disaster relief, or education, or healthcare. Not the issues that matter. We don't even remember the issues that matter, especially the detail of it. All we remember is personal lives.

In essence, we're completely oblivious to the human nature of making mistakes, and we refuse to forgive, because if an adulterous man becomes president, the world will end. Period.


We're all humans with libido

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I don't think Bill Clinton did anything wrong in terms of his political position either (the ethics of his private life are a separate matter... ) but, that line you mentioned in the movie gets it dead right:

You can lie, you can cheat, you can start a war, you can bankrupt the country, but you can't *beep* the interns. They get you for that.


The moral standards are bass-ackwards, but that's the way it is. Political debate is too facile to take people to task over the bigger issues, so they go for the emotive stuff that doubles as gossip, because it's an easier target to hit... Doesn't matter if it's more important, or not.









Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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I agree that personal lives and political lives are not correlated. However, people often forget that these "personal" problems almost always involve an employee. And in any other business it would be equally as scandalous and frowned upon if the boss has sexual relations with an employee.

Let's put it this way. If you are a teacher and you go to school and find out that one of your fellow teachers is having a sexual relationship with the principal, I find it hard to believe that everyone on this board would not be either disgusted with the principal or have an entirely different view of the principal afterwards. It is one of the reasons workplace relationships are frowned upon or banned in many areas because it creates separation between fairness and equality among employees.

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If you are a teacher and you go to school and find out that one of your fellow teachers is having a sexual relationship with the principal, I find it hard to believe that everyone on this board would not be either disgusted with the principal or have an entirely different view of the principal afterwards


You might have doubts about their impartiality... but, so much also depends on your personal experiences with them, simply as a person. 'Disgusted' is a bit strong. Look at it this way, my default position is to have doubts about EVERYONE'S impartiality, whatever the circumstances... because I know human frailties, and I'm a cynic. So, if I go into every situation with my eyes open, then what difference does it make, whether I happen to know their motives, or not?!

Fairness and equality right across the board are illusions to begin with. They happen in pockets here and there, but rarely as standard policy. Ever been for a job interview and done really well, but just got the feeling that the position has already been filled, despite the efforts you made? There you go. They have to advertise to give the appearance of 'fairness and equality', but sometimes it just happens that they already KNOW who they want.




Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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First off, I said a person would be "EITHER disgusted OR have an entirely different view of the [individual] afterwards." Essentially saying that at the very extreme a person may be disgusted and at the very least a person would have a different view on the individual in question.

This is important because once pandora's box is open, you can not close it. In the case of politicians that almost always means the end, not because cheating on an individual is worse that things done in political office, but moreso because no one is going to stand up and say "I am all for people cheating on their spouses." At the end of the day it is the worst thing to happen because a politican can not defend the situation doing what they do best, talking their way out of it. Nearly every other politcal argument has a counterweight that can basically help the politician say, "Here is why I did what I did."

For example, "Why did you kill all of those innocent people?" Politicians answer: "Because I was trying to protect this nation from a national security risk." See, even when the position is abhorred, a politician can make many people understand. However, when they are asked "Why did you cheat or your spouse?" Suddenly, a politician whose entire career is built off witty remarks and counter arguments suddenly has nothing to say. It is one of the few issues that nearly everyone agrees on. People should not cheat on their spouses.

As far as your argument that impartiality occurs everywhere, I agree. However, rarely in politics or real life can you catch someone and prove that they are being impartial. If you went to court for someone not hiring you they could easily say, "We just thought the other candidate was better." And who would be able to say they are wrong? However, if you are passed up for a promotion and the person who was promoted happens to be sleeping with the boss, all presumptions of impartiality now turn into reasonable assumptions with a certified cause.

See the difference?

The crime in politics and life concerning cheating, impartiality, etc. is not the act itself, it is exposing yourself to being caught.

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I am not disgusted, nor would I have a different view.

You only need to defend that situation by saying 'I am human'... It's no-one else's business.

It concerns me if ever I were to be directly lied to, but since I would never presume to be entitled to know about the state of another person's marriage, then this would never be an issue.

You don't need to be an advocate for something to fully comprehend that mistakes happen... No, I'm not 'all for people cheating on their spouses', but I understand the meaning of 'There but for the grace of God...', 'Judge not, lest ye be judged', 'People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones', and a host of other sayings pertaining to the subject.






Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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I said "Nearly everyone would have a different view."

Apparently you are the perfect person. You are incorruptible, completely understanding and always have your eyes wide open in order to be aware of everything.

Well, the rest of society is a little more fickle than you. People understand that mistakes happen but most people understand than when someone makes a mistake he or she generally has to pay for those errors. Mistakes have consequences.

If a person recklessly drives his or her car and accidentally commits vehicular homicide, they should and usually do have to spend sometime in jail.

Similarly, politicians who give a false representation of themselves to the public (I am happily married and do not cheat on my spouse) therefore quite understandably suffer the political backlash when a sex scandal comes forward.

I understand that mistakes happen, we all make mistakes, but I also understand that a person who makes a mistake generally has to pay the consequences. And when it comes to the court of public opinion, a cheater is almost always going to lose.

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I didn't say I was perfect; I just think it's only fair to hold everybody else to the standards that I set for myself... I don't expect our rulers to be infallible individuals, because there is no such thing.

What you seem to be saying is that conduct that is good enough for ordinary people is not good enough for elected officials... I say, nonsense. Politicians are ordinary people, just like us (and if they aren't, then they darn well should be... ) I have no desire to be dictated to by an elite, I want to vote for someone who understands the way that I live. It's this unwavering expectation of perfect behaviour that encourages MORE cheating and corruption in the first place, because they can't tell the truth when they slip up, so they feel they have to hide it, thereby making things worse. How many voters do you think are hypocrites? They won't vote for a known cheater, despite having cheated themselves?! It's THAT kind of piousness that I can't stomach.

Giving a false representation of yourself is a sin that we agree is unforgiveable... I've already said that I don't want to be lied to, but I do have more respect for people who can make a mistake and then be honest about it. That unfortunately, is the difference between me and most citizens; I see a transgression as an opportunity for redemption, they see it as their first opportunity to crucify someone, and never to let them back onto a podium again.

'Fickleness' is not a quality to be proud of, by the way... Humanity in general should strive to move beyond it... and if the public are given a free pass by you to be fickle, then I'm damn sure that politicians should be allowed the same grace, as well.








Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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I don't expect politicians to be better than 'ordinary people.' I simply expect that the cultural expectations put on the 'ordinary people' be applied to politicians as well.

We seem to have a difference in opinion on what type of mistakes should be forgiven in the political spectrum. I believe that just as many 'ordinary people' are expected not to cheat on their spouses or abuse their employment positions, public officials need to be as good as the 'ordinary person' and also not cheat on their spouses or abuse their positions. Of course they are forgiven as people, but that doesn't mean they are forgiven by the public in time to keep their current political position.

And again, go look up any employee handbook, you will notice that sexual relations with an employee is more than frowned upon by most businesses and in some cases results in dismissal. If you think this too is an injustice then you aren't just arguing against me, but you are also arguing against societal norms.

Essentially, the whole point is that any politician who abuses their power by sleeping with subordinates, is immediately under suspicion (just or not) of also abusing their power in the realm of policy. That is the reason politicians resign. Scandal by definition is a person whose conduct results in disgrace. Not usually a good selling point for a politician. Especially when the words 'abuse of power' are added.

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'Cultural expectations' vary, as we've shown during this discussion... and I'm far from the only one - especially in this thread.

The problem here is that, where you say expectation, I say ideal... Not cheating on one's spouse is of course the ideal, but I don't 'expect' it of other people, because I'm not walking in the same shoes they are.

Forgiveness is not a selective thing, for me; you either do or you don't... If you still use that person's transgression against them, then you haven't 'forgiven' them at all. It means nothing just to say it, you have to be prepared to show it; actions speak louder than words.

Sometimes it's an injustice, sometimes it isn't... I would argue that these things have to be looked at on an individual, case-by-case basis... Blanket generalisations and jumping to conclusions helps no-one, because it doesn't allow the chance to improve.

Maybe I am against societal norms. Sometimes, not to be that way would be to automatically assume that society gets everything right at the first time of asking... You already know my thoughts on the subject, and I make no apologies for them. At this point, I think we're in danger of retreading old ground before too long.








Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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I think we have already retread old ground.

So, I simply have a question for you.

If someone accidentally commits vehicular homicide, what do you think is a suitable punishment for society to place on that individual?

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I repeat; I would judge circumstances on an individual, case-by-case basis, as the law itself does...

I would also like to add that this has nothing to do with infidelity, and its handling in the movie.






Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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It’s frustrating when you keep skirting issues with cliché sayings and run-around statements.

If you don’t think people should be punished for their mistakes then just say so. The character in this film should be punished for his mistakes. And to clarify, his mistake is not necessarily cheating on his spouse, in that sense I agree that personal matters should be held out of the public realm. His mistake to the public (since he is a public figure) is that he gave a false-representation of who he was, he claimed to be happily married, when in fact he was using that claim as political leverage. (It is a fact that happily married politicians have a greater public perception than non-happily married individuals)

You seem to believe that individuals should be more understanding when it comes to public figures personal relationships. You claim to be a cynic yet you fail to realize that when you allow public figures to misrepresent themselves without consequences that you are in fact being duped.

Again, to reiterate, the mistake is not cheating, it is using their ‘perfect wife and family’ perception for political gain. The reasons politicians hide these relationships is because they know it will hurt them politically. And I think if they hide it then they should be hurt politically.

Look at the new President of France. He has four children out of wedlock and openly admits it. He had a hard time using ‘family’ as a political gain, but he is open about his former relationship so it has not hindered him so much as to not be elected.

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Every case is different. If you're running on a family values platform, then yes, you should be called out on your inconsistencies. That may well apply to the film, but it didn't apply so much to Clinton, since he never claimed to be the perfect guy. He lied about his involvement with Lewinsky, yes, but even if he had told the truth, the damage to his reputation would have been much the same. Maybe in a fairer political climate, he might have felt the freedom to be open about the truth. I'm honestly not trying to skirt issues at all, I just feel frustrated that we live in such a climate, but - going back to my original point before you added your thoughts - society hasn't evolved enough yet to take into account the bigger picture, it seems.

We weren't actually arguing about the film, at all. We're closer in opinion than you realise.

I understand WHY they hide it, though; although fundamentally I disagree with it... They're damned if they do, damned if they don't. What chance has a self-acknowledged philanderer got of getting elected in an America that is still deeply conservative in many ways? None, and it's just a shame that the focus of the voters is so narrow. You might get away with it in liberal France, or maybe in the U.K - but Morris had no other option except to lie in America, if he wanted to change the country for the better. Maybe the ends justify the means.






Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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Fair point. And I agree that we are in reality quite close in opinion.

The difference of course is that you believe that they should get a pass because the political climate forces them into the decision. I think the politicians brash and unwavering self-confidence makes them feel invincible and that is exactly why most people dont want that type of person (someone who looks as if they may abuse their power) in politics.

Also, people like Clinton are exactly the type of power-abusive person that people become disgruntled with. I think he was a good President, however, he was in his second term, and therefore couldn't be reelected. Why wouldn't he just admit to it and say, get over it people I will be retired soon and out of the public eye? He is a prime example of a politician who feels untouchable and that is why I believe they lie, because they think they can get away it, not because they feel they must.

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... but on the other hand, you need a certain amount of 'brash self-confidence' to draw people to you... It's a vicious circle, and a delicate balance.

Good point on Clinton; I liked the job he did whilst he was in office, but I would've liked to have seen him own up to his indiscretions, as well.








Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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Agreed. It is a vicious cycle, much like this discussion.

I enjoyed our rather entertaining debate and I must admit I am sad to see it end.

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Me too; hope to see you around somewhere else!








Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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he wrong for this reason

It shouldnt matter THAT much what happen in your personal life
But it DOES
and he KNOWS that

and he did it anyway thus threatening to runin everything, which shows a recklessness


Does that mean he COMPLETLY hypocrtical. Not compleltly...very few completly one thing. But he is flawed, It just stephen had him up on a jesus like pedastal


I think EVERY character in here beleave they can help the country
And probally see themselves as a moral guy

It just how they go about getting the power to change things...is a promblem

Reviews..reviews and MORE reviews
http://streamingrevies.blogspot.com/

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People in positions of power should be held to a higher standard than everyone else, of course they should.

I certainly expect Police to be stronger and faster and braver and more fearless than me, and for Judges, Lawyers, DAs to be smarter and fairer and more impartial than the average person - to be able to put their personal feelings/opinions about someone/thing to the side in the interest of justice.

I don't expect my doctors to be just like me, I expect them to handle pressure better than I do, to be smart and skilled at what they do and to be able to be focused and put their patient first even when they are tired. that's why these people take oaths. It's an acknowledgement that the power they are given is important and should be used to benefit people, and that they should put their profession first before anything else.

In terms of politics, I understand wanting someone who doesn't consider themselves to be better than everyone else, and wanting someone who understands the way you live. But that's empathy - something we all would like from a leader. I'd want that as well as intellect and confidence and morality and other things that might be considered 'elitist'. Being informed and understanding of the lives of others is different to being just like everyone else.

And I understand that as human beings, people make mistakes; and that can be taken into consideration and forgiven as far as i'm concerned. Nobody's perfect. But along with money and power and comes responsibility, and if they're playing by our rules it allows them to be able to get away with too many immoral, illegal and despicable things. That's why we hold them to a higher standard and a more elite set of moral codes.

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That's because police, judges, lawyers, DA's, etc... have had training. Physical limitations aside (for instance, I couldn't be a police officer because of my disability... ) theoretically there is no reason why you can't be just as brave and fearless as anyone else. No-one is 'born' brave, unless they lack mental inhibitors, they learn to be so through exposure and conditioning to the potential hazards they may face...

Political training is much more 'on the job'; you don't have to have taken a political course before you're eligible to become a politician (although it may or may not have an effect on how far you can progress during a career... ) Did Arnold Schwarzenegger have many civic qualifications before he became Governor? No; he was elected because at the time, people liked the image he projected, and they thought that even if he didn't know much about the office at the time, then his forceful personality and drive would enable him to get to grips with it fairly quickly.

Even skilled jobs feature ordinary people equipped with experience... The only difference occurs in what routes are expected to acquire that experience... They are no more fundamentally suited through natural characteristics than the average person might be. You can learn. The truth is that doctors ARE just like you; they have only built up their capabilities through being granted the opportunity of practical application... Barring impairments, almost anybody is personally suited to undertake the job, providing they work hard enough.

Politicians have relatively little training, other than being in the field... and I would suggest that this is why screwups might occur more often than in other specialised positions.

What you want, and what you get are nearly ALWAYS two vastly different things... I just don't understand why people act so surprised when politicians appear to be as vulnerable as everybody else underneath all of the bluster - that's just humanity: 'to err is human, but to forgive is divine'... Less focus on the former, and more striving to be like the latter, please.

Why exactly, is it difficult for the majority to be both informed and understanding? I consider myself to be both, and yet, I'm not markedly different when it comes to my psychological makeup than anybody else... People assume they can't BE these things because they're lazy and they want to pass the buck onto someone else. If EVERYBODY took the responsibility of thinking, instead of purposely creating divisions, then we'd all be able to relate to one another a lot more.

How do you KNOW that people with money and power have used them inappropriately, though? You can't just assume that everybody with wealth and influence has relied on those qualities to get themselves a free pass... That would be hypocritical. If an elected official turned that way of thinking around and said that 'all poor people use sympathy to get ahead in life', there would be a massive outcry - and rightly so! In a fair society (which I'm sure most of us would like to work towards... ) the conduct of rich and poor alike ought to be measured by their character, and not their resources.






"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!"

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First of all, let me just say that I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But my point isnt that Doctors, Police etc are born different, but that (as you rightly pointed out,) they are trained in their profession and endure tests and assessments so that only the most capable are picked. We all have the ability to learn, but not always the opportunity or the desire, and some people are more natural at things. So we delegate. We give over a lot of responsibility to these people, and we trust them with our lives.
As a person, I don't consider a doctor to be fundamentally different from me, but, I also can't trust this stranger with my life if I do not acknowledge that they are better in some way; more suited to care and cure me than say, my Mum (who I also trust with my life). I have to believe that someone somewhere has considered this person competent and trustworthy.

I think there is a level of training required in Politics. Media training, debate training, people and communication skills - no matter how smart you are if you don't possess or project a degree of likeability or know how to make your point, most people won't vote for you unfortunately. But yes, it's also a lot to do with instinct and just working hard mostly. I don't know, I have no problems with seeing a politician or a celebrity as a real person. I'd actually prefer their mistakes weren't hidden. I'd like to know how they handled them - as it's the coming-back-from adversity and reaching success, and the manner in which they do it, that is interesting to me. Shows strength of character and reveals how they handle their problems.
My issue mostly is the misrepresentation of their character. Some of them say things about themselves that aren't true, lie about their past and their intentions etc. I'm not naive, I realise that they have to do this because most voters want them to be perfect, but it seems like when they make mistakes they mostly just try to cover it up or hide it or deny it or not take responsibility, instead of admitting to it, admitting they're human, and showing us how they're going to fix it, make it right, and come back from it. As a president, I expect mistakes and that he/she isn't going to get everything right all the time, but it's this kind of behaviour that makes me question their judgement and makes a lot of people feel like they don't know how to fix mistakes the right way. So I understand very well that politicians are humans just like us who make mistakes and are not perfect; but it's like they don't.

Honestly I don't know why the majority are not informed and understanding. But so many lack empathy and the ability to relate to others. Xenophobia and ignorance makes some people hate based on race, class, culture, gender, sexuality etc. I was raised not to be that way, and I see that you were too, but some people aren't. some just don't have a reason to educate themselves about people different to them, instead letting their fears of others and the need to feel superior breed hate.

I don't assume that everybody with money and power uses it to get a free pass. Most wealthy and powerful folks are able to do great things because of that, and use their influence for good. But it makes those that have an ulterior motive easier to get away with things. I know it because it has happened to me and a lot of people: people who have been molested/assaulted by their doctor, teacher, boss - people who put their trust in them and they use that vulnerability to take advantage of them. Police who beat up civilians based on profiling or their own personal dislikes, some of which don't get held accountable. I know it because of OJ SIMPSON; wealthy people who commit crimes and get away with it by paying off someone important, doctors who kill patients on purpose... it happens all the time.
Most people are vigilant and do their best to protect themselves against harm, but we put ourselves in vulnerable positions with these uniformed strangers. EG. a vigilant woman wouldn't get naked infront of a man she'd never met, lie down and let him touch her and not worry, if she didn't think that as a doctor he was trustworthy, competent and impartial.
:)

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Yes; I can't abide lying either, because there's just no excuse for it, if it's intentional.

I can't disagree with a single thing you've said here, so I think we're pretty close on this.







"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!"

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Giving a false representation of yourself is a sin that we agree is unforgiveable...


And yet it's something everyone does, daily, on their resume. It's not exactly a false representation of someone but every resume makes a person out to be better than they actually are. No one puts on their resume, "hard-working but can get a little lazy around the holidays."

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True enough... but this is actually one area where I DO expect politicians to be better than 'ordinary' people... If you lie to me about what you've done - or what you're going to do - then don't expect me to trust you, ever again.






"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!"

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I would be inclined to agree normally except that I think it's us, the voters, who have made the political campaign game into the farce it is today where the average voter has no formal training or understanding of U.S. government and how it works (it's funny just how many Americans fail to even grasp the concept that the U.S. government was established to protect against rule by majority, not to favor it, as that can trample over minority rights as Madison warned, e.g.), the governing factors of economics, etc. and instead are more interested in, say, whether someone believes in evolution, religious affiliation, whether a man is faithful to his wife, etc.

It has become almost a requirement for a candidate to sell 'integrity' as part of his image now even though it has very little to do with the actual job whether he has it or not. The attacks from opposite sides often have more to do with personal attacks -- digging up dirt (OMG -- the president smoked weed in high school!) just as much if not more than actual political decisions.

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That's the price of democracy though; you could take the vote away from dumb people, if you were a dictator (I don't know how you would define 'dumb', though... ) but the current system that we have - flawed though it is - appears to be the only workable one we have that is fair.

I totally agree with your main point though; as you can see from my other postings in this thread.








"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!"

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Cheating is about breaking a contract. Instead of being honest, you pretend to be monogamous so that your partner doesn't sleep with other people, but you go sleep with other people anyway. Its no different from violating any other contract, your partners wouldn't make a deal with you unless you held to your side of the agreement, but you dick them over by not holding to it while you hold them to their part. Someone selfish enough to do this to their closest family members really can't be trusted to uphold their end of bargains with people they care even less about (the rest of the country).

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He had sex with an employee. An unpaid employee but an employee in some sense. That's abuse of power. Plus, there's no way the Senator could have given him his endorsement just after that story broke. It would have meant the end of his campaign.

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First off, lemme just say that it's been a pleasure reading this thread. So many times IMDB is just full of *beep* retards, but the discourse in here has remained rather civil and open-minded. Not completely, but hey, we do what we can, right?

In any case, there's something else that I believe everyone's forgetting and it's a key quote in the film.

When Morris is doing an interview on public access, the subject of the death penalty comes up. When asked whether or not he (Morris) believes that the death penalty should be in place he says, "No.", and then when asked if it were his wife who had been murdered he responds, "...If I could find a way to put him down myself, I would.", to which the interviewer says, "So YOU would impose a death penalty?" and Morris states, "No. I would commit a crime, a crime which I would happily go to jail for. No, I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't believe what it says about our country, about society. I believe it is society's duty to hold itself more responsible than the individual."

Okay, I had to paraphrase all that *beep* because I couldn't find the quote online, it's late, and *beep* it. I'm tired.

My point though is this: if you're running for President, the highest office our society (the United States) has to offer, then you're essentially putting yourself down to run society. If you claim that you want to hold society more responsible than the individual, then you yourself have to be held responsible for yourself and for your ideals, or else they mean nothing. It all means nothing. Public or no.

I'm not saying you can't have faults or make some major mistakes and be a good leader. You can. It's been done in the past, it will be done again in the future. But what is this film really asking us? What is more important? A person's ideals, (who they say they are or try to be), or their actions, (who they actually are)? If their actions achieve results, does it really matter who they are as a person? Or should we as society hold them to something more, something greater--even to something greater than we ourselves are capable?

Me? I don't know. It's hard to say. Part of me goes one way, part of me goes the other. This world isn't black and white, and I sift through varying shades of gray everyday, and I still consider myself to be on the up'n up. We can't say for sure whether or not Morris would make a good leader because the film ends so abruptly before we as the audience are able to hold him accountable for his promises, which means that all we can hold him culpable of are his actions in the movie, which, admittedly, are rather *beep*

To say that Morris didn't do anything wrong is a rather cheap rationalization because the film doesn't go far enough for any of us to see if he gets the nomination, and even further, if he becomes president and is a decent leader. From the evidence at hand I'd have to say that I'm not sure I would want Morris as my head-of-state, even though I was nodding my head along with everything he was saying in the movie. Then again, maybe, out of all of his political opponents, he was the lesser evil? Who knows for sure? No one. And that's kind of the point.

I will say this though: I'm also not sure that I agree that one can keep personal and professional completely separate. Your personal life led you into your professional, did it not? Did not your day to day life, your every day interactions with other people (teachers, friends, family), your personal ethics and moral code, have some bearing on where you ended up professionally? I'd like to think so. Or hope so. Otherwise you may be slightly sociopathic and invested solely in self-interest ($$$), in which case I'm not sure I'd trust you to look out for the public's best interest. But who knows? I've been wrong before.

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