To this day
No one has yet to convincingly explain to me what exactly Walt did that was so horrible
shareWhat do you mean?
shareI don’t see that Walt did anything wrong yet people continually claim he’s some sort of monster?????
shareBecoming involved in drug manufacturing/distribution etc, and everything that goes along with that, i.e. the violence etc?
shareBut he had to because he was desperate and had to make sure his family had the money they needed, what he did he did for his family
shareSo laws etc don't apply if one has an excuse?
shareThose people were going to get the meth no matter what, all Walt did was ensure that they got the highest quality product possible.
shareDrugs are baad, mm'kay?
shareYes but they were going to do drugs anyways
shareThat's not a great argument in and of itself because psychopaths are going to hurt people, it's still immoral. People are going to do bad things, but you can't necessarily sanction it or agree to participate. "Somebody's going to make a sweat shop and exploit a third world country; might as well be me!" Not a good argument.
shareEven if Walt didn't make drugs, the druggies still would have done it. Walt didn't hurt anyone.
shareWalt hurt plenty of people.
shareNot anyone who didn't deserve it.
shareI disagree. He basically ruined his relationship with his son, for example. His actions directly led to that. His son has to live with that trauma, grief, and hurt - possibly forever. Walt Jr. could be whiny, but he was a teenager. They're all dinks to some extent. The level of pain Walt brought down on his son was directly caused by his actions and was undeserved.
That's *just one* example.
Well his son never would have found out if it weren't for Jesse and Hank so Walt can't be blamed for that.
shareJesse never would have gotten that deep in if Walt hadn't tracked him down, either. Or maybe Walt never should have quit Gray Matter in the first place, maybe that's what caused it.
Shifting blame doesn't do it for me. Walt acted, there were consequences. Sometimes he had his family at heart, other times he was completely selfish.
And even a feet that Jesse came back to Walt on his own freewill and begged him to cook meth with him multiple times. He had so many opportunities to get out and he didn’t. Karma but Jesse in the ass big time and he’s ultimately responsible for his own suffering and the suffering of others
I gotta say my favorite scene of the whole series is the one where Jack, Todd and the Nazis are sitting around the TV drinking beer and laughing at Jesses confession video lol “does this pussy cry through the whole thing” hahahahaha
I don't understand how you know Jesse's actions and decisions have consequences, but not Walt's. I don't understand how you can completely exonerate one of the characters on this show and none of the others.
shareDon´t waste your time, this people will always find an excuse for Walt no matter what. I always found ironic how one of the smartest shows of all time has some of the most moronic fans.
shareLike, don't get me wrong, I sympathised with Walt throughout the show a lot (although there was a tipping point for me when he turned villain), and I think a lot of his actions are good, morally-grey, maybe justified, debatable, etc., but I think he did a lot of evil, a lot of wrong, and made some bad, dumb, or selfish decisions as well. One of the best things about the writing on the show is the moral slider-scale and how nobody on the show is moral or even "legal" all the time.
I just don't understand how somebody can see the cause-effect of actions-reactions (or decisions-consequences, if you will) in all the other characters - literally all of them - but claim that Walt is literally blameless for *everything*.
Because by going by Walts plan no one would have gotten hurt, it was Jesse , Skyler and Hank who got people killed through their greed and evilness. Walt was a noble man and he was the hero. He was the man who made the sections that no one else could the right decision, he plunges his hands into the filth so that the ones he loves can keep theirs clean. He was Jesses guardian angel the whole show and was never appreciated
shareNot specifically that moment, I mean generally, Walt is clearly not a saint, and the rest can't all be devils. I don't know why you insist on near-total innocence and altruism from Walt while demonizing everybody else, and I don't know why you insist that actions have consequences for other people, not Walt. Everybody's decisions influence everybody else's decisions, so it's my opinion that no one person is guilty of starting the chain reaction - there were many fuses.
Walter White is a man who makes this active decision to become a criminal - a villain. He starts off as the protagonist and gradually becomes the antagonist. In every episode, Walt's further along the path from good and bad. He's basically Scarface - he definitely journeys into darkness. He's manipulative. He's the monster. He's the cancer destroying his family.
Walt is a good guy who made a few mistakes but his heart was always in the right place and his intentions were good. He destroyed his own humanity for the sake of others, he is a hero. If Hank, Skyler and Jesse had listened to Walt then everything would have been completely smooth and nothing bad would have happened, but Jesse decided to rat, Skyler decided to cook Ted's books and Hank decided to ruin the lives of his own niece and nephew all so he could get another promotion. Everyone around Walt broke bad while Walt stayed true to his moral compass.
shareSorry, I was paraphrasing. Here are the original quotes from Vince Gilligan, creator of the show:
"Walter White is a man, on the other hand, who makes this active decision, who makes the decision to become a criminal, to become a villain."
"The character starts off as a protagonist and gradually becomes the antagonist."
"...for him to think that he is being magnanimous about forgiving her when he’s in fact, the monster, the cancer, if you will, that’s destroying her and her family. But it’s also very manipulative on his part."
"In every individual episode, Walter’s a little further along the continuum between good guy and bad guy."
"This is a guy ... becoming Scarface, and it seems in episode 501 he’s already Scarface."
"So this guy is definitely on a journey into darkness"
Well I respect his interpretation but I think it's flawed and misguided. Hank, Skyler and Jesse are the true villains of the series. Seriously what Hank did to Mike's granddaughter is far worse than anything Walt ever did.
shareI'm going to take the writer, showrunner, and series creator's word for it.
And Walt killed her grandfather, so...
Right but that's because Mike betrayed him, also remember Mike was going to kill Walt just 1 season ago (along with Jesse mind you). Hank on the other hand ruined her life and now she's probably going to end up as a meth whore like Wendy and of course Hank planned on driving by every day in his fancy sports car just to rub it in because he's a sadistic son of a bitch.
shareMike only responded to Walt's actions, though.
And I'm still sticking with the show creator's vision.
That’s fine even though I think you’re wrong. And Mike was a murderer I don’t feel sorry for him I do however feel sorry for Kaylee who’s life was destroyed by Hank
shareThink as you will, I suppose.
shareI will, Hank at the very least should have given Mike's granddaughter his house, his car, all of his possessions and all of his money and all of his future income should have gone to her, but he didn't because he didn't give a damn about her or how much he hurt her. He's a sadistic son of a bitch.
shareWould you excuse a Nazi for just following order to put someone in a gas chamber? Hitlers gonna murder Jews no matter what.
shareGretchen and Elliot offered him a job, Frank and Marie offered to help out, Skyler was obviously capable of getting work as an accountant after he was gone.
He didn't have to do anything, he was too proud to do otherwise. He wouldn't forget the past, he wouldn't accept help. Now, does that make him a bad person? Not necessarily, but he elected to go into an incredibly high-risk occupation which does repeatedly threaten his family's lives, happiness, and well-being, so there's a strong argument that he's selfish, prideful, and reckless. Is that bad...? Maybe that's a perspective thing.
He never could have gotten the money needed to support his wife and two children through those options, he had no choice but to do what he did. Walt is a noble character, he plunged his hands into the filth for the good of others, he is quite possibly the only main character in the whole show (aside from Holly) who never broke bad.
shareGretchen and Elliot certainly would have employed Walt at a salary that would have supported his wife and kids. That was the whole point of the offer in the first place, so I'm confident they would have done that much.
Hank was a pretty big deal at the DEA, probably made bank. I'm sure he was making as much as Walt was at his high school chem teacher job, so between that and Skyler's accountancy job, that would have worked, too.
Walt's goodness and nobility are debatable. I personally think he started out good and nice and turned pretty darn evil with some good points left and some oscillations back into goodness from time to time.
He *definitely* broke bad. Embroiling himself in a life of crime is by definition "breaking bad".
Wiktionary: "...to turn toward immorality or crime."
Urbandictionary : "To Break Bad is to reject social norms for one's own gain or amusement. To give up on the typical moral and social norm and go one's own path, regardless of the legality or ethics."
Or, Vince Gilligan: It means “to raise hell,” he says, as in “I was out the other night at the bar…and I really broke bad.”
He never would have earned the 9 million that he needed, plus Gretchen and Elliot were condescending, patronizing jerks.
Hank was not pulling in the kind of money Walt did so your point is debunked
He was also a good person, he made some mistakes along the way like not killing Jesse in the Confessions episode when he had the chance but his heart was always in the right place.
The show is about a guy trying to do the right thing while everyone else around him breaks bad.
He didn't need 9 mil. Or, at least, he started out saying he needed 747,000. That got bumped to 9 mil for some reason. (Greed. The reason is greed).
Hank didn't have to pull in the kind of money a drug lord was pulling in IF Walt's goal was to ensure his family's comfort. Between Hank, Marie, and Skyler, they would have been fine. So, I don't know what definition of "debunked" you're going by, but that ain't it.
Walt was - as was everybody on the show - a mixture of good and bad. Some people think he was better than worse, others don't, and the exploration of that grey area is one of my favourite things about the show.
By literally every definition of "Breaking bad" I could find - including by Vince Gilligan, show creator - Walt broke bad.
He might try to do the right thing a lot, but he also fails a lot, and he breaks bad just as much as the rest of them do.
No they needed 9 million, they really needed 80 million but they didn't get it because of Hank
Hank never would have been able to support Walt's family and also Hank was a villain, he needed to die and it's a good thing he did.
He was pure good, he was the only completely good character on the show
Walt never broke bad, Junior made it all the way to the Ozymandias episode before breaking bad but he filed a false police report.
"Adjusting for inflation, good state college,adjusting for inflation, say, $45,000 a year. Two kids, four years of college, $360,000. Remaining mortgage on the home, 107,000. Home equity line, 30,000. That's 137,000. Cost of living, food, clothing, utilities, say, 2 grand a month. I mean, that should put a dent in it, anyway. Twenty-four K a year, provide for, say, 10 years, that's $240,000. Plus 360, plus 137. Seven thirty-seven. Seven hundred and thirty-seven thousand. That's what I need." -from the man's own mouth. So, either he's stupid (his math is wrong), or he's a liar (that'd be pretty impure, wouldn't it?), or his number changed when he started wanting more.
Hank and Marie could supported Walt's family. A top DEA agent - moving up the chain, more dollars all the time - plus Marie's salary, yes. Walt was prepared to take care of Skyler, Walt Jr., and Holly at the beginning of the show. He was doing that as a high school teacher and part-time car wash worker. That's not even considering Skyler's potential earnings as an accountant, plus Walt Jr. could get a part-time job, too. More than doable.
Hank wasn't a villain, not as I see him. He had bad parts, but he had a code of honour, ethics, and he cared for his family, the law, and society.
Walt was not pure good, but that's beside the point I was making which was that he broke bad, categorically, by definition of that term, because that term doesn't necessarily mean "evil", but just connotes chaos, or illegal activities. Walt was into some illegal stuff.
Walt was naive at that point, he thought he could do business with Tuco, those were not accurate numbers however Walt was still a novice at that point so I'll cut him some slack.
Hank was a scumbag and a villain, all he cared about was himself and it didn't matter who he hurt along the way, Hank is no better than Gus Fring, both were willing to harm innocent children to get their way. He was pure evil plain and simple. Walt was the guardian angel who saved the family from Hank. Also don't forget that Hank also violated the character's constitutional rights frequently.
EDIT: Also don't forget that Hank was hoping Jesse would die so that he could bust Walt. He was literally serving him up as bait.
So, you pick "stupid", since Walt's math (and economic sense) is wrong.
shareNaive, I clearly said naive.
shareSo he's a nearly-fifty year old man who can't do math or understand his own economic condition (despite being able to rattle those numbers of his mortgage, etc. off the top of his head), and that's him being "naive"?
shareHe does understand but he was new to the whole situation and it was going to be a learning experience. I would be like if you all of a sudden became a brain surgeon, it would take some education to become proficient at it, it doesn't mean you're stupid it just means that you are a novice.
shareBut I'd still be able to calculate my salary, right?
He says what he needs, not what he can sell through Tuco. He's just talking the number he needs.
Walt says he needs $737,000. That's his target number. You're now not only arguing with people on the message boards and Vince Gilligan, you're now arguing with Walt on his own behalf.
Again he didn't fully understand how much money they would actually need because he was a newbie to this whole thing. The Walt from Season 2 is not the same guy as Season 5.
shareA newbie to his own finances?
The quote from the show clearly has Walt mapping out his own financial interests, not how much money he can make as a drug dealer (which is way more than that), but rather the income he would need to generate to leave his family in good shape.
That number is static *regardless* of how Walt makes it or in what profession. He's not talking about the drug trade *at all* there, he's only talking about the money he needs for his family.
Totally correct. The only thing Walt wanted to save was his ego and self image. He was anguished that he had not achieved his potential and creating the Blue Meth enabled him to do that. He didn’t care who he destroyed.
shareI think it's all connected back to whatever happened between Walt, Gretchen, and Elliot. They formed a company, he left - obviously still angry about it - and built a new start for himself on a foundation of resentment and rot. He married a non-Gretchen, got a meek job, and shuffled around holding on to his angst and letting it grow. Then he explodes in a wave of selfish ambition, trying to push a second reset button on his life. He wants to be big, important, Gray Matter CEO again.
We've got rot, Skyler.
Also, cancer.
So many metaphors...
To be fair, most legit businesses are involved in similar levels of moral ambiguity and contribution towards violence - even if indirectly.
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