I don't get it.


Why can't people just learn to be happy with who they are instead of going to the endless and troublesome surgeries to try to become a completely different person? Say if you do go to the trouble and end up feeling just as miserable as ever just to realize that you can't go back to the way you were before you started.

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I'm not an expert on the transgender subject, but here's a little thought exercise to consider.

Assuming you're a heterosexual male, imagine you go to sleep one night and you're abducted by aliens. Aliens with medical technology far superior to ours, and they experiment on you and change your gender to a female. It's a perfect change. When you wake up in the morning you are surprised because you're now 100% female and indistinguishable from a biological female in every way possible. However, your sexuality and personality have not been altered in any way.

How would that make you feel? Would you be happy being like this forever? Remember, you're also still a heterosexual attracted to women, but heterosexual women are no longer interested in you and you can no longer please them sexually.

Do you think this may cause some problems in your love life and make you extremely miserable? What if there was a medical procedure to turn you back to the way you were, costly, exhausting and imperfect, but at least you'd be returned somewhat to the way you were. Would you do it?

I imagine for many trans people, this is at least somewhat how they feel.

It's spelled Raymond Luxury Yacht, but it's pronounced 'Throat-Warbler Mangrove'

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Not a great example. I imagine he and now she would simply be considered gay. A straight man isn't attracted to a female mainly because they are attracted to men. They are attracted to females regardless of there preference.

I think what he is saying is how you feel isn't all that relevant. Many people feel many different things, some real and some imagined, and I actually agree a gender change is not something to be undertaking lightly and there is no guarantee of happiness from it either.


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well put. emotions are not that relevant, people give importance and gravity to something that is very unstable and changes frequently. why? what we feel is mostly dictated from our belief system and our chemistry. beliefs are stable more or less, but chemistry is not . level of some hormones in body can drop or grow for various reasons and that dictates how we feel. how we interpret these feelings is where it gets tricky

so whats the problem? for most people it seems that their chemistry dictates what beliefs should be. if persons environment also supports it, belief is formed according to emotions and it then also reinforces what they feel. for example if you feel that you are different, if you feel inside you that you are LGBT then you think that it must be THE TRUTH. we justify what we feel because emotions have feature of finding reasons for supporting themselves. so problem is that we dont question what we feel

and solution? i think that what it should be instead is that person should have preferred belief system in advance, and emotions should arise accordingly from that depending on goal satisfactions. now if chemistry supports this scenario then perfect, if not then persons beliefs should compensate for lack of appropriate chemistry until body adapts. and body always adapts. it can adapt to drugs and alcohol withdrawal and thats as chemistry imbalanced as it gets. person can live in harshest environments and with terrible diets. inappropriate gender experience shouldn't be a problem. but the fact that it is sadly a problem to many people suggests that something is not that smooth. i am saying that reason for this problem is false belief system and solution is finding the right belief system

sure we may have lesbian or gay gene in us but we also have cannibalism gene in us or other crazy stuff in us that we maybe inherited from gene pool of evolution. but we learn to live with it because we suppress most of that crazy stuff that we dont need(not all of them unconsciously). because we believe that its possible. this LGBT stuff is the same. if person has physical body with boobs and penis together then its whole different problem. i am talking about situations when its only in your head or in your chemistry. if not, nothing you can do mentally changes physical situation. other then that its doable

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Either you're being purposely obtuse or you have no idea what the difference between a cis lesbian and a transgender woman is. Here's a hint: There's a huge difference between who you're attracted to and who you ARE.

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Good answer.

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Bad example. Transgenders have not been abducted by aliens and physically altered.

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I wish someone would abduct and physically alter me overnight so I could be done with it... like in "The Skin I Live In"... Transitioning is not cheap and isn't an overnight path.

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Are you transgender?

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thats it in a nutshell-perfectly accurate
for a lot of people there is no choice no just playing the hand dealt

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clouseau-4,

I'm not an expert on the transgender subject, but here's a little thought exercise to consider.
Very good thought exercise - thanks very much for that! 

Best wishes,

janar

"Love [...] is the most incredible gift to give and to receive as a human being." - Ellen Page

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I'm not an expert on the transgender subject, but here's a little thought exercise to consider.

Assuming you're a heterosexual male, imagine you go to sleep one night and you're abducted by aliens. Aliens with medical technology far superior to ours, and they experiment on you and change your gender to a female. It's a perfect change. When you wake up in the morning you are surprised because you're now 100% female and indistinguishable from a biological female in every way possible. However, your sexuality and personality have not been altered in any way.

How would that make you feel? Would you be happy being like this forever? Remember, you're also still a heterosexual attracted to women, but heterosexual women are no longer interested in you and you can no longer please them sexually.

Do you think this may cause some problems in your love life and make you extremely miserable? What if there was a medical procedure to turn you back to the way you were, costly, exhausting and imperfect, but at least you'd be returned somewhat to the way you were. Would you do it?

I imagine for many trans people, this is at least somewhat how they feel.


But the flaw in this exercise is that they were not originally something else. They only have the desire to be. Someone who was born with healthy and functional sex organs should learn to accept themselves for who they are. It's no different than a black person wanting to be seen as white. Or a person with a naturally large body frame starving themselves to have a small body frame. It's body dysphoria. We don't cater to these other groups of people and feed their delusions. So why are trans people so special? There's no changing biological make-up. Most trans people are still miserable and screwed up even after getting their SRS. It's a mental issue, not a physical one. And if a man who wanted to be a woman is called a woman, it's only out of courtesy. But that person is still a man. That's what a DNA test would say.

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Interesting points

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But that is exactly what being transgender IS! No, they don't start out one way, you're right, but that's because they were BORN that way- literally in the wrong body. And if you're not transgender, of COURSE it's going to be incredibly difficult for you to grasp and comprehend! This is so different from being gay- anyone can IMAGINE having sex with someone of their same gender if they're straight, but this is closer to trying to know what it's like to BE the opposite gender, to be another person entirely.

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Pffffft, yeah I'd like to see the science behind that. There's nothing that says they were 'born in the wrong body' apart from their own word.

Guess what, no one knows what it's like to be the opposite gender, just like no one knows what it's like to be another person. It's complete garbage.

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By far, not an expert here. However, my understanding of transgendered is NOT that they desire to be the other sex, they already feel they are the other sex. From my limited understanding (and there are disagreements within the medical community), we are hard-wired in our brain to be who we are. I believe there can be chromosome abnormalities and lead to the belief that trans people are the "wrong" sex. You say there is no changing biological make-up. That biology not only lives in our bodies (vagina vs. penis) but in our brains. There are children who believe they are the wrong sex and know that from an early age.

You may find this interesting:

Australian DNA study during 2008:

Australian researcher Professor Vincent Harley has led an Australian-American study of transsexuality. He acknowledges that the cause(s) of transsexuality have been debated for years. He said:

"There is a social stigma that transsexualism is simply a lifestyle choice. However our findings support a biological basis of how gender identity develops."

He was the lead researcher in the an Australian-American genetic study of transsexuals -- the largest to date. Included were several research groups in Melbourne Australia and in the University of California in Los Angeles (UCLA). It was funded by the National Health and Medical Research Council in Australia, and the National Institutes of Health in the U.S.

They compared DNA from 112 MTF (male-to-female) transsexuals with DNA from 250 males who did not experience gender dysphoria. Results of the study were published in the 2008-OCT-27 edition of the journal Biological Psychiatry.

The researchers found that the transsexual subjects were more likely to have a longer version of the androgen receptor gene in their DNA.

Lauren Hare, a researcher at Prince Henry's Institute said:

"We think these genetic differences might reduce testosterone action and under-masculinize the brain during fetal development."

Professor Harley said:

"Studies in cells show the longer version of the androgen receptor gene works less efficiently at communicating the testosterone message to cells. Based on these studies, we speculate the longer version may also work less efficiently in the brain." 1

Commenting on the lives of transsexuals, Prof. Harley said:

"It's a very tough condition. These people are often on the margins of society, are ostracised, poor, unemployed. It's not something you would want to choose yet still some people think it's a choice when it's more likely transsexuals are born like that." 6

The report stated:

"It is possible that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might result in incomplete masculinisation of the brain in male to female transsexuals, resulting in a more feminised brain and [later] a female gender identity."

Terry Reed from the Gender Identity Research and Education Society said:

"This study appears to reinforce earlier studies which have indicated that, in some trans people, there may be a genetic trigger to the development of an atypical gender identity."

"However, it may be just one of several routes and, although it seems extremely likely that a biological element will always be present in the aetiology of transsexualism, it's unlikely that developmental pathways will be the same in all individuals."

Researcher Trudy Kennedy, director of the Monash Gender Dysphoria Clinic, said the study supported previous evidence that genetics and brain gender were important in transsexuality. She said:

"This is something that people are born with and it's certainly not a lifestyle choice as some have suggested."

A Ground Report article commented on the conflict over the causes of transsexuality:

"People develop an inner sense of being male or female from an early age but transsexuals identify with a physical sex opposite to their biological sex. Some theories suggest some causes that include psychosocial factors including dysfunctional family dynamics and traumatic childhood experiences. But research is increasingly implicating biological factors including family history and genetics."

"The present study would disapprove the social stigma that trans-sexualism is simply a lifestyle choice; the findings support a biological basis of how gender identity develops." 2

Julie Peters is one of the MTF transsexuals who took part in the study. She said that at the age of three or four years, she was aware that she did not behave as a typical boy. She said:

"I have always had the personality of a girl, I suppose is the way I perceive it and even from a very young age, three or four, I was really mad at people for making me a boy. ... I personally think it (gender) is a combination of both (nature and nurture). You are born with a predisposition to have a certain personality and then depending on the culture you are brought up in your personal situation it becomes active in a particular way." 3

Researchers are now planning to replicate the study with twice the number of volunteers. It will also examine investigate whether other genes are involved.

Demetris Taylor, a reader of the Ground Report article, posted his concern over this type of research:

"It is truly amazing that this research is upon us. My fear is those 'mad scientists' may take this information and begin to play God will begin to find ways of CHANGING the "TRANS-baby" and perfect the child according to what society says is NORMAL............I would love to see more conclusive information about this study and read the DEFINITES they conclude." 1 (Capitals in the original).

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What an irrelevant analogy! For a start no one has the option of changing their sex from the one in which they were born. A male can have operations to look reasonably female and even have their penis removed and a permanent wound installed in a grotesque parody of a pussy, but sex is more than appearance, it is genetics, it is fixed and a far as any sane and rational person in society at large (i.e. outside of nutty film directors, drug addled losers of sub-average intelligence, and those who follow along the opinions of these first two groups like little retarded sheep) is concerned that is the end of the matter.

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It is truly scary how boxed in and simple minded you are. And I am a straight male, just so you know.
Your outlook on this issue, I am sure, is not the only simplistic view you have on topics far more complicated.
Beyond that, I'd encourage you to not bring up the science of genetics, as you clearly don't have any idea as to what it entails.

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Would you just accept your fate or would you go hunt down the evil alien who's got your manhood and is probably wearing it at parties as a fancy antenna?

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lol!

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That's a *beep* stupid example.

'Trans' people weren't the other gender before. They say they are the other gender because they 'feel' like it. How could you possibly know what it feels like to be the other gender? How could you possibly know how anyone else feels like?

It's garbage.

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>> How could you possibly know how anyone else feels like?

I think you just disproved your point.

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Ah, no I didn't. Of course I don't know what they feel like, but the point is they couldn't possibly know what it means to 'feel' like the other gender.

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They couldn't possibly know because?

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Trans is a mental illness. Catering to their delusion is not exactly helping them. Look at the statistics of post-surgery suicide rates. Its insane that they are even allowed to get the surgery, when at least 50% kill themselves afterwards.

The problem with people like you, is that you think that since homosexuality is "normal" (biologcially speaking), then trans must also be normal, ignoring the fact that homosexuals make up 5-11% of all mammal populations, whereas trans only is evident (sofar) at less than .1% of the population.

Trans is a mental illness and these poor people should be treated with medication, instead of catering to their fantasies, which lead to only more pain and confusion.

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If you look deeper into the numbers you'd find the reasons for transgender suicides are the negative and bigoted treatment they receive from those who have nothing better to do than judge them, bully them, discriminate against them and call them mentally ill.

What those "poor" people need are other people to accept them, stop attacking them, and treat them like human beings.



The Wizard Has Spoken

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One word: Delusion.

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Here's another: bigot.

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Trans people can have mental illnesses as well. And being picked on/alienated/misunderstood most of your life would not help.

My trans friend says the key is hormones, when she took those she finally felt OK. She is now post-op and living happily and embracing a new career as an artist. My friend is highly intelligent, extremely witty and in no way mentally ill.

So yes, medication in the form of oestrogen is helpful for MTF, and testosterone for FTM.

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Trans people can have mental illnesses as well. And being picked on/alienated/misunderstood most of your life would not help.

My trans friend says the key is hormones, when she took those she finally felt OK. She is now post-op and living happily and embracing a new career as an artist. My friend is highly intelligent, extremely witty and in no way mentally ill.

So yes, medication in the form of oestrogen is helpful for MTF, and testosterone for FTM.

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That was such a good analogy you created.

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heterosexual women are no longer interested in you and you can no longer please them sexually.


So not much would've changed then.

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Psychology and biology are a little too complex for you to understand.

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I think psychology is complex for most people to understand considering it isn't a hard science and is in most cases subjective in one form or another.

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Wow! The idiots who comment on subjects, with false authority, that they themselves have never experienced baffles me.

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[deleted]

I'm not going to get into a bug argument about your posts but one of the studies you referenced does not mean what you think it means...nor does the data cited in it lead to the conclusion that the author of the article thinks it does.

The studies cited in the article that looks at the scientific studies on the size of hippocampus do not show that gender is a purely social construct. Assuming the author is correctly stating the facts of the studies mentioned, that only demonstrates that the size of the hippocampus does not determine gender. There are still plenty of ways that biology can determine or effect gender. There are plenty of case studies that do not support the idea of gender as a social construct. There are people who were born with ambiguous genitals where a decision was made at birth to surgically assign a gender to the child. The parents then raise that child 100% to be one gender (usually female since that is easiest to mimic cosmetically) yet the child still struggles and suffers from having the "wrong" gender forced on them.

Gender is likely something with both biological and environmental factors. For some it may be all or nearly all, one or the other but for most people it is probably a combination that we do not fully understand at this time. Regardless a person should not be considered weak for asserting who they are on the inside just because some people don't understand it.

This is all a moot point anyhow as there is strong evidence that suggests that Lily was intersexed.

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[deleted]

You are the one speaking in absolutes here. I specifically said that it is possible that it is a combination of both biology and environment and that the specific combination of how much of one vs the other makes up an individuals gender likely varies as well. That being said, you can talk about common sense all you like but that isn't science. As I said, one of your studies cited measured only relative size of the hippocampus. That does not mean that there are no biological factors in gender.

Take a look at the recent studies out of Boston University Medical School. They support the idea of a biological basis for gender.

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[deleted]

As someone who's gone through the entire process, I can tell you that it's no walk in the park. Several years ago, the insurance companies made it very difficult, if nigh impossible, to have the surgery covered under an insurance policy that claims to cover trans/intersex surgery. They did so because they wanted to rule out/sift out/weed out all the people who did not fit their profile of what a "real" trans/intersex patient is supposed to be. They were the gatekeepers and a lot of transgender people hated this because they did not qualify. A lot of my peers looked at me and said "why did YOU get approved and not me?"

Nowadays, it seems that insurance companies relaxed a lot of the requirements and many more trans/intersexed people are allowed to get the surgeries they "need" (quotes because some of these people are the very ones you read about who seem to have regrets after transitioning). The point of the gatekeeping is there's supposed to be a weed out process to prevent people from having regrets. No insurance company wants to pay surgeons money for surgeries that ultimately fail to achieve what they're supposed to "cure." Some people have way too many psychological problems that need to be addressed before they can even deal with the issue of transition. I've told many people "If your life sucks as a man, it's going to suck as a woman, too," but people never listen.

Even if you get all of the psychological problems addressed, there are the physical problems, too. Some people just don't fit into everyone's profile of what a woman is supposed to look like. It's partially subjective, but very real and many trans/intersex people ignore these issues for some reason. This might also lead to regrets. I believe this is why some trans/intersex women continue therapy after transition, to cope with any possible negative outcomes from the transition process.

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Surgery is free here, so you wouldn't experience that here. That being said you would have to go through lengthy sessions to determine whether you're 'fit' for surgery (mentally). It's definitely not a walk in the park, but as I understand it, not all transgender want surgery anyway. The main issue is and has always been society's demeaning attitude towards the transgender community - and this is what should be addressed.

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This is true. You don't get it.

https://zitzelfilm.wordpress.com

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[deleted]

I can't help but think of some of those South Park episodes after reading your post. They really did nail it.

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I can't know how it feels to be transgender as I am not, but as far as I can tell the feeling is certainly a real and powerful feeling which many people experience, which is that of not belonging to the gender which corresponds with their biological sex. Trans people face innumerable hardships, but clearly the feeling is strong and real enough that many would rather brave those hardships than spend their life in denial of how they truly feel.

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Those that have to ask will never understand...

Gender identity dysphoria is an physiological condition, which has been proven with science and scans of the brain. Intersex is also another condition rarely talked about because it has been misunderstood for so many centuries and most people just don't want to bust their ignorance and learn about it. Intersex conditions, such as Klingenfelter syndrome, affects as many as 1 in 1,500 to 2,000 people. It is also directly related, but not always, to many transgender people and their need to transition. Its estimated up to 4% of the population fall under the transgender umbrella, which also includes transvestites, crossdressers, drag kings/queens, etc.

Imagine yourself waking up in the morning with a growth that is uncomfortable and unsightly. Causing you depression, anxiety... where you do not even want to look at yourself. Or that of people who are unhappy of body weight, their nose, hair or eye color, etc. That is probably about as close of a example as I can think of.

It shouldn't be necessary for you to understand entirely, but unfortunately there are too many bigots who believe their lack of understanding or refusal of understanding prevents transgender people from living happy and full lives. I recommend watching a few documents such as "Trans", "Me, My Sex and I" to educate yourselves. Watching Caitlyn Jenner or any movie does not represent all trans people, and are very limited on any productive information.

Personally, I am a transwoman coming to terms with myself after many years of trying to run away from my feelings and desire to have been born a girl. Being pansexual and being more so attracted to women was one of the issues that I had to deal with as well. It would have been great if gender and sexuality was not that big of an issue and wasn't labeled as abnormal, but far too many think their own personal religious beliefs should overrule other peoples beliefs and happiness.... which is one problem of democracy. Hopefully it gets better, we can actually receive equal rights, safety, and the freedom to be ourselves and to marry who we love regardless of what genitals they happen to have.

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I've heard of pansexual before but am not sure exactly what it is. Is it similar to being bi-sexual? If not, what's the difference?

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Pansexual's attraction to other people is not based on sex/genitals. Or standard gender characteristics. I guess what they are attracted to is more personality based.

Quit ya moanin

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Pansexuality is sexual attraction, romantic love, or emotional attraction toward people of any sex or gender identity. Pansexuality may be considered a sexual orientation in its own right or a subset of bisexuality, to indicate an alternative sexual identity. Because pansexual people are open to relationships with people who do not identify as strictly men or women, and pansexuality therefore rejects the gender binary, the "notion of two genders and indeed of specific sexual orientations", it is often considered a more inclusive term than bisexual.[8][9] To what extent the term bisexual is inclusive when compared to the term pansexual is debated within the LGBT community, especially the bisexual community.

A literal dictionary definition of bisexuality, due to the prefix bi-, is sexual or romantic attraction to two sexes (males and females), or to two genders (men and women). Pansexuality, however, composed with the prefix pan-, is the sexual attraction to a person of any sex or gender. Using these definitions, pansexuality is defined differently by explicitly including people who are intersex or outside the gender binary. Pansexuals can be attracted to cisgender people, transmen, transwomen, intersex people, androgynous people, and everything else. It is generally considered a more inclusive term than bisexual.

Pansexual pride flag: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Pansexuality_flag.svg

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