Actually, you are wrong. You might actually want to do some real research concerning Mozart. He was not trained from babyhood as you claim. He only started to pick up music at age 4. His father was concentrating more on his sister at the time. Mozart's father felt Marianne would be the real talent at the time. Only until Mozart showed interest in music, which wasn't until he was 4, did his father start training him, and even then, the training from Mozart's father was minimal because Mozart didn't need much training at all.
Nope. I'm not wrong. As far as "real" research? You mean, like established Mozart experts Neal Zaslaw, Robert Levin, and Stanley Sadie? The biographies by Alfred Einstein, Robert Gutman, Maynard Solomon, John Rosselli and Konrad Küster? The
Groves Dictionary of Music and Musicians? The
Cambridge Mozart Encyclopedia? Those are my sources, leaving out my friends in musicology. I'd also recommend Zaslaw's wonderful "K is for Koechel," as well.
So no, I don't have my facts wrong. You are using popular and incorrect assumptions about Mozart to make your point, as well as twisting my words yet again. Your inaccuracies here, meanwhile, include
Mozart's age at earliest training (three, not four), his sister's name (Maria Anna--Marianne was a nickname, as was "Nannerl,"), the idea that his father dismissed his abilities at first (no), or that Mozart "didn't need training" (sigh--Leopold trained him extensively in violin, keyboard, music theory, and notation), just to name a few.
And I did not refer to Leopold's teachings of Wolfgang's sister Nannerl, simply because it wasn't all that relevant and Wolfgang, not Nannerl, was my focus. I did say that he began teaching Mozart in "babyhood"--i.e., Mozart was a toddler. Age three. Look it up.
And yes, this period is comprehensively established, as Nannerl was seven, to Wolfgang's three, at the time their training began, so Leopold wasn't 'ignoring' Mozart in favor of his sister, but in fact had simply thought he was too young, as a toddler, to learn, as yet. When Mozart began picking out notes and intervals while watching her lessons, Leopold was thrilled and surprised, and quickly began working with both children, concentrating more intensively on Wolfgang as his genius became more and more evident.
By the way, I highly recommend Maynard's biography in particular--it's very rich as well as highly acclaimed. Einstein's is still the gold standard but it also lacks nearly 50 years of research since publication, yet it's still worthwhile. These books also portray a fascinating look at Mozart's evolution as a childhood prodigy and the ways in which he began to explore sounds, simple intervals, and then quickly moved on to full melodies and beyond--in other words, a real and believable progression. Although you also seem to be confusing prodigies with savants, so maybe that's part of the problem.
Anyway. It's fine if you simply want to believe what you want to believe, but your opinion doesn't make something a fact.
For that matter, I prefer August's Rhapsody at the end of August Rush over anything Once had to offer. The songs in Once weren't even really that great. They were more the songs of a musician wannabe rather than a real musician. The music in August Rush, unlike the music in Once, actually drew me in.
This made me sad, because the music in
August Rush was so terrible and pedestrian, and the music in
Once was so amazing (Mark Mancina did far better and more creative work for
Brother Bear and even
Tarzan, honestly). I did laugh out loud when you called the music of
Once "the songs of a musician wannabe, rather than a real musician." Glen Hansard has a distinguished musical career as a solo artist, as well as with Irglova and with The Frames, that goes back over two decades, and his work in
Once has been lauded by everyone from Bob Dylan to The New York Times and dozens of other media. The film has a 97% fresh rating from Rotten Tomatoes, versus
August Rush's Rotten rating of
37%.
Interestingly, Hansard was a musical prodigy (the real kind, unlike August), who began singing in the streets at age 13. Of course, Hansard's best revenge against your assertion that he is a wannabe musician, is that his song for
Once with Irglova, "Falling Slowly," beat "Raise it Up" from
August Rush to win the Oscar that year.
Please, you clearly don't understand how prodigies work, and you obviously don't know much concerning Mozart. You might want to get some new best friends because a REAL musicologist would agree with everything I have stated.
Insults? Really? Sigh. And, um, no. They would not and do not agree with you, as much as you might wish them to. Ultimately, you just don't seem to understand either musicology or the real ways in which prodigies evolve, so I'll wrap this up and say we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.
Cheers and best of luck.
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One_Man_Army
15 years ago
Do you even realize how much concerning Alfred Einstein and Robert Gutman that you got wrong, kid? Their very biographies of Mozart actually back up the FACTS I'm stating. You might want to continue reading them. So does the Cambridge Mozart Encyclopedia, for that matter. Here's a news flash, for you. Those sources back up my points, not yours. You really need to get some more sources. So far the only sources you have provided only back me up, not you. Nice work, kid. You are supposed to provide sources that back you up, not me. You do realize that, don't you?
You are also still wrong. You might want to do some more research, kid. According to Alfred Einstein's own book. Mozart's father DID, in FACT, dismiss Mozart at first. According to other biographies, Mozart's father believed Marianne would be the real talent of the family. Also, Mozart, did NOT need much training. In FACT, his father did NOT extensively train Mozart because Mozart didn't need to be extensively trained. Alfred Einstein even states as much in the very first chapter of his book. Do you have reading comprehension issues or something because Einstein made it quite clear that Mozart neither needed nor received extensive training? You might want to actually look into the sources you've provided because they clearly back me up.
I am NOT using popular and incorrect assumptions about Mozart to prove my point, at all. I am using widely accepted FACTS about Mozart to prove my point. FACTS you apparently like to deny. Please, the only one wrong here is you. Nearly every single biography about Mozart states the facts I've already given.
Actually, you might want to look it up. Mozart's father didn't start training Mozart until he showed real interest at age 4. Only then, did his father start training him, and Mozart's father did NOT extensively train him at all. Look it up. I know I'm right here. Please, the idea that Mozart was extensively trained by his father is not only wrong, but it's completely ridiculous. It goes against just about every single biography on Mozart. Mozart did NOT need extensive training.
Nothing I'm stating are opinions of Mozart. They are widely accepted FACTS about Mozart. You apparently haven't done enough research concerning Mozart, at all. You might want to research more FACTS, kid.
I never said Hansard was a music wannabe. I see you are the person who likes to put words in my mouth. I said the songs of Once were more the songs of a music wannabe, not that they are from a music wannabe. You obviously have reading comprehension problems. Also, August Rush was the personification of REAL prodigies. Look at Mozart and Greenberg. Again, you show how little about prodigies you know.
Actually, REAL musicologists would, in fact, agree with me. I do know how prodigies evolve. You have shown with your denial of the facts that you clearly don't know a thing about prodigies. The one who doesn't seem to understand about prodigies is you because you falsely claim that Mozart had extensive training from his father. This should NOT be a news flash considering it's been accepted as FACT for a couple hundred years, but Mozart did NOT receive extensive training from his father. The training from his father was minimal. Stop denying fact, kid. Also, there was NOT a single insult in that statement. Reading comprehensions much, kid. Go back to school and take a few courses in music. You clearly need them.
For the record, you have gotten a few facts concerning Mozart wrong. His father did, in fact, look him over thinking Marianne would be the real breadwinner of the family. His father did NOT start training Mozart until Mozart showed REAL interest in music. Finally, Mozart's training by his father was NOT extensive. In fact, it was minimal. If you knew as much about Mozart as you claim to, you would know that Mozart didn't really need his father's training. Mozart picked up on nearly every instrument the first time. Again, you clearly show how little you know concerning Mozart and prodigies. Continue to do some research. Maybe one of these days you will actually get it, kid.
Hate to be immature here, but since you appear to be nothing but a fool who loves to deny actual facts and since you decide to use sources that actually back me up, I've got two words for you.
EPIC FAIL
Seriously, how many more facts are you willing to completely ignore, kid. Please, offer a few more sources to back me up, kid. Clearly, with you around, I don't have to provide sources because you provide all the ones I need.
ALL HAIL THE HIGH QUEEN!!!!!
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paramitch
15 years ago
"Kid?" Huh? I'm 43. Not exactly a "kid," although I don't see how age has any bearing on this conversation anyway. (Although it did make me laugh, so it wasn't entirely worthless.)
The funniest thing about this post, however, is that in spite of all your screaming and yelling and cries of "FAIL! FAIL! FAIL!" (hee) about how informed and absolutely right you are, you have yet to cite a single source, much less a reputable expert on Mozart.
I never said Hansard was a music wannabe. I see you are the person who likes to put words in my mouth. I said the songs of Once were more the songs of a music wannabe, not that they are from a music wannabe. You obviously have reading comprehension problems.
Then let me quote you again, directly, since I'm genuinely confused on this point.
1. You say: "The songs of Once [were] more the songs of a music wannabe, not that they are from a music wannabe."
2. Okay. But Hansard wrote and performed 90% of the songs on
Once.
3. So how did I misinterpret your statement? How are you not calling (1) the songs of
Once, as well as (2) Hansard's songs (as they are basically one and the same), those of a "wannabe"? Are you saying Hansard is only
like a music wannabe, not an
actual music wannabe? Or that Hansard
isn't a wannabe, he just writes the
songs of a wannabe? Come
on.
Anyway. I tried to keep this civil, but since you're basically just kind of frothing at the mouth and insulting me at this point, I'm out of here. I do hope you check out some of the authors and biographies I suggested on Mozart, or any reputable source, as information is always a good thing, and Maynard's book is superb (although I read Einstein's first, so will always have a soft spot for it).
Ultimately, you love this movie, and I'm glad it works so well for you, and the others who do so. I loathe it beyond any other film I have ever seen and will always find it musically mediocre and insulting to real musicians
and prodigies
and savants as well as half a dozen other cliched literary placeholders. And insulting most of all to people who truly know and love music. So we obviously will always disagree.
And I'm outta here, and while I've enjoyed the comedy relief, you're officially on /ignore. Best of luck.
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One_Man_Army
15 years ago
Gee, for a 43 year old, you clearly have reading comprehension issues.
You may want to check out those authors, yourself. As I said in my previous post, they actually prove my point. Those authors don't agree with you, at all. In fact, Maynard agrees with me completely in his very first chapter. You shouldn't provide sources that do NOT back up your point, kid. The only sources you've provided actually back me up. The fact that you don't realize that is actually quite insane.
What you also don't realize is that August Rush is actually complimentary of REAL musicians, prodigies, and savants. Again, you show how little about prodigies and savants you actually know. The film isn't insulting at all to those who TRULY know and love music. On the contrary, it's insulting to those who do NOT truly know and love music.
Also, I haven't insulted you, yet. Where you get that idea from is simply ridiculous. You quite obviously don't know what an insult is.
Ignore me all you want, but since the sources you've provided actually back me up and not you, your point didn't get across. You may actually want to read those books, again, because you clearly didn't understand what they said.
Best of luck to you, as well. Maybe one of these days you will truly understand music. It is clear you don't know how to read because, as I said, the authors you've provided do NOT back you up, at all. In FACT, Maynard, Einstein, Gutman, and even the Cambridge Mozart Encyclopedia back me up ENTIRELY. You might actually want to read them again. It is quite clear that their points of view are actually on my side. They also back up the FACTS I provided to you. You know, the FACTS you apparently choose to ignore. As I have already said, thanks for the sources that actually back me up, kid. Because of them, I don't really need to provide any of my own. You've already provided all the sources I need to prove my point. Good job there.
ALL HAIL THE HIGH QUEEN!!!!!
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