MovieChat Forums > The Squid and the Whale (2005) Discussion > The Dad wasn't that bad

The Dad wasn't that bad

posted 13 years ago by turkeyprophet
22 replies | jump to latest

I've seen quite a bit of discussion on this board and in other places and most people seem to think the Dad is basically evil.

Which I found quite surprising really. I've noticed in real life that in most divorces fathers are often disliked by children, so maybe people are just carrying over their own feelings?

I think some of the qualities of the Dad appear a bit obnoxious but when you think about it they aren't so bad. So he's arrogant, elitist and very cheap.

But he's a well respected writer and professor of literature. His life is discussing and creating art. He is clearly quite a bit of a jerk about it, but that is his passion and his life. If he were a famous athlete and he called none athletic people lazy or amateurs I don't think most people would call him arrogant. Yet calling uncultured people philistines makes him evil? And a lot of his criticisms are either pretty much general consensus. Sure he is a bit rude but he's not that bad.

When he accepts money from the girlfriend and is accused of doing joint custody to save money that seems cheap but it is also made pretty clear that he is struggling with money. No one even seems to care that the mother gets the really nice house and the father has to start out all over again.

It's clear that he is being a jerk when he tells his sons about the mother cheating. And there's no real excuse because it is very petty. But he clearly had a liberal relationship with his son and his son asked. On top of that he had no one to talk to and it had been eating him up for four years. He hadn't gone out and cheated and he didn't have another person like his wife did. And even though the mother brought around the guys she was *beep* to meet the kids, the Dad is still the jerk.

Then I guess one other big point is that he wasn't around so much when the boys were young. But a lot of fathers do this and it's not because they are jerks. Men just often can't connect with children until they get a bit older.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Dejay 12 years ago

I wouldn't call the father evil, but the main issue with Bernard is that he is an emotional cripple, a wreck. Evil deeds aren't done out of evil intend, but out of weakness.

"On top of that he had no one to talk to "

Exactly, he is abusing his own son emotionally, instead of parenting. He dumps his emotional troubles on his son. He seems to have no real friends, which is symptomatically for narcissistic characters. Children have no other choice than to love their parents unconditionally, so this is often used to "fulfill" the holes in their lives. Bernard's problem is that he cannot love other people, because he cannot love himself. He evaluates everything either as "grandiose" or "minor work". I'm not saying his father was that bad, but we only saw a fragment of those things that we can uncover from our early life. Bernard isn't intentionally evil and he would have a whole sermon ready to justify what he does (rationalizing) but he is screwing up his son.

A lot of people will not get the dangers of emotional abuse compared to physical abuse, poverty or other traumas in childhood. It is hard to explain and hard to understand, but your first relationship (the relationship with your parents) affects your whole life.

[–] josh-1164 13 years ago

I agree as well

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[–] jandybanandy 13 years ago

I was sympathetic to his frugality but I disagree with "his passion" being discussing art/literature. His passion was his ego and the thought that he is worshipped. He is pretentious - a total poser. He is NOT the intellectual he pretends to be yet he tries to bully his wife, kids, students intellectually. He uses his status as a professor to "prove" he is smarter therefore always right. Ugh. And the bit of authority he does have, he abuses, as a father and a professor. I am surprised anyone could feel the least bit sympathetic to him. The film was described as "subtle". I thought it was as subtle as a mack truck.

[–] AlexTheGreyWolf 13 years ago

He has a huge ego but he isn't as bad as Joan. She left evidence of her affairs around the home to torture him. She had affairs even before she married, she knew she couldn't be faithful so why did she marry Bernard? To me that makes her a far worse person than he is.

Jandybanandy how did Bernard use his perceived intellect to bully his wife and kids?

[–] jandybanandy 13 years ago

AlexTheGreyWolf, well one example is he tried to convince his wife and sons that his wife wasn't a capable writer. Remember the scene where he insisted she apply his "suggestions" for her story?

She married him because she was naive and insecure and believed his bs. Then she grew up woke up matured and saw the marriage was a mistake. But by then there were two kids. The affairs weren't to torture him. They were a reaction to her deep unhappiness and disatisfaction.

Since we're comparing the two, she was by far the more caring generous and responsible parent. She never shredded her children's image of their father, yet he took every opportunity to blame and vilify her. And Walt, being young and naive, also believed Bernard's bs. But at the end we get an inkling that he too will grow up and see what a total ass his dad is.

[–] raywang0923-72-390429 11 years ago

I think the point here is that Joah may be a 'whore' doesn't mean she is not a good parent. The mistakes that their elder son is making it that he had confused with those two. At least he realized his mistakes at the end.

[–] jandybanandy 13 years ago

I have a different theory. I was shocked that anyone could be at all sympathetic to the dad. But some on these boards are, and those all seem to have "boy" names. (I think I'm the only female in this thread and also the only one who is sympathetic with the mom). So I'm thinking it's a gender-thing, and not trauma from broken families.

[–] HarveyManfredinStJohn 13 years ago

Sounds like you got taken in by his BS too, Scott. Let's go over the main points:

He's not that successful, but he walks around like he deserves all the recognition in the world, to the point Walt believes it too, though Walt probably hasn't actually read any of Bernard's books.

He's a bad influence on his children, brain-washing Walt into a pretentious lil' twat, and not being supportive of Frank, while throwing tantrums because of a game of ping pong.

He's cheap, accepting money from Walt's girlfriend for dinner and allowing joint custody just to save a buck.

He's petty, complaining a lot about parking, constantly reminding Joan that she divorced him, and telling Walt that Joan cheated on him, which is totally uncalled for.

He's condescending to his wife when she's writing her novel, then he's noticeably irritated by her success, like a jealous toddler.

Finally, it's made clear that he wasn't really around when Walt was younger, presumably during his "successful" period.

I'm not saying Joan is "the good guy", as she did quite a bit wrong too, but Bernard's clearly "the bad guy" in this. You can rationalize each point all you want, and had he done only one or two of these, I might agree with you, but as it stands, he's easily the most unlikable character in the whole film. It's a pretty open-and-shut case, if you ask me.

Going station to station is hunky dory but if the trip's low on creeps it can drive Alladin Sane.

[–] benselby 13 years ago

Yes, I agree. I definitely wouldn't describe him as 'evil' as some people have, but he was an emotionally retarded, arrogant jerk.

I think that one of his most terribly destructive acts was the way in which he fundamentally undermined Walt's capacity to engage in a loving, mutually supportive relationship with his long-suffering girlfriend. Bernard provides Walt with a terrible role model, demonstrating none of the caring, compassionate, considerate qualities that are foundational to successful partnership. As a result, Walt has never seen how a loving husband should act, and really has no idea how to be a man. Bernard also coaches Walt into a mindset which treats women as sexual accomplishments, and subtly belittles Walt's girlfriend as being "fine for now, but not the type that I would go for", knowing that Walt will lose interest in her purely in order to emulate his father.

The end of the movie is brilliant, when Bernard is clumsily trying to resolve his difficulties with his wife Joan, and he starts talking about how he would be willing to do more about the house, like cooking hamburgers or "veal cutlets, which the boys love", and Joan just laughs hysterically and says "Hamburgers!". It's such a great representation of her complete exasperation with a man who, even now, has never bothered to think about what anybody else actually needs from him.

[–] Jerique 13 years ago

He's cheap, accepting money from Walt's girlfriend for dinner and allowing joint custody just to save a buck.

You forgot to mention that when Frank has a headache, all Bernard cares about is the money needed for aspirin. He says, "get a small one." But when Frank needs more money and buys the smallest one, the first thing he asks is, "you got any change?" He wouldn't even let his son keep a few cents to buy some candy or something later.

____
"When Gotham is ashes, you have my permission to die." — Bane (TDKR)

[–] schall1991 9 years ago

I suppose you have never had to live frugally. My single mother that I grew up with would have told me the same thing - after all, he had an acute headache. Why buy a whole bottle of Tylenol? Why should Frank be entitled to the change so he can get candy? I don't get the criticism here...

[–] allamovic 13 years ago

i'll tell you some main reasons made me think the dad is so bad
first of all he affected on his son so his son become as stupid as his father , and that made me angry about him even if its not his fault to make his son look to much as him but still make me angry.

second he is so cold which made his wife look for other men and even when he knew he didnt do anything cos he is so arrogant person so ( cold and arrogant )

third he connected his failure in writing with his marriage i mean his wife didnt tell him anything or complain about that so he is the kind of persons that dont admit their faults and i hate those ppl not because they are arrogant but because they lie and believe their lies :S

finally he isnt a bad man but he hurt ppl around him so he need to admit his faults and try to get over them then connect with hisi family again.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] skittlesa5 12 years ago

I definitely agree with the OP. The dad was definitely not a bad person, just a victim of circumstance really, just like everyone else. All the characters had serious flaws.

[–] sporkyou 12 years ago

This-

"But a lot of fathers do this and it's not because they are jerks. Men just often can't connect with children until they get a bit older."

Is simply not true- it's an excuse. Any man can be a sperm donor, but all the real men I know are true fathers to their kids (at every age.) They don't bow out because they'd rather be doing other things. Raising kids is difficult and requires a lot of patience. It's not easy for men OR women. But good parents are truly present for their kids, even if they have a little trouble learning how to be nurturing.

That being said, I do agree with your assessment of the dad in this film for the most part. He's not evil, but not a saint.