which leading man were you routing for? - Shopgirl (2005) Discussion

[–] strout002-1 19 years ago

In the beginning of the movie, when Mirabelle is in her car listening to the relationship expert on the radio the expert is talking about how after sex is what is important to a woman. She then goes through the four different stages of how a man is with a woman after he sleeps with her. The best stage being when he wraps both his arms around her and holds her tight. When they would show Mirabelle and Ray after sex, they were never really that close. But at the end when she is with Jeremy they are in bed together and he has both his arms around her holding her very tight. So at the beginning I was routing for Ray but when I saw that, it was clear Mirabelle should be with Jeremy. So I loved how it ended.

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[–] owawards 19 years ago

OMG I completely agree with you. I had forgot about that part. Great film!

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http://imdb.com/title/tt0386603

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[–] jeaniebaby001 19 years ago

At the beginning I sort of saw how it was possible to chose to believe in Ray, fishy it may have been how their romance began. But, when Ray said that thing, about buying a house in case he meets somebody he wants to settle down with, that was a wake up call for Mirabelle, as well as me as an audience. So, I followed Mirabelle all the way throughout the movie. Go Claire Danes!
It's sad that I could relate to this movie so well....I could understand the ambivalence of Ray who says insensitive things, because he didn't want to see himself as a bad person, and also he did appreciate Mirabelle, and loved her (perhaps in the only way he could anyone), and said so to her at the end. The movie tells us without uttering it that Mirabelle was looking for something more...and she found it!

http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html

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[–] adelf108 18 years ago

"I'll protect you.... I will."

Destroyed me, totally. It was so great.

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[–] kare-bear2002 18 years ago

i LOVE that shot. it is so touching.

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[–] amcallister1 19 years ago

I was so rooting for Ray to change his mind and grow to love Mirebelle.
But I'm glad that Jeremy got the girl. It was for the better of the movie, I believe.

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[–] natrassy 19 years ago

Jeremy may have been scruffy and quirky, but he was honest and up-front. also he was always decent to her - he never tried to use her like ray. although i really do think ray cared about her all along and he did love her by the end at least, i think it would have been wrong for them to end up together. they were in completely different places - she was looking for the real thing, and he was tired of the boring life and just wanted to have fun.

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[–] driverx 19 years ago

I was hoping she would ditch the 2 losers and find someone else.

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[–] ImagoDei 19 years ago

EXACTLY!

It is AMAZING to me that anyone would "hope" that she ends up with Ray. He is the male version of Lisa -- a complete manipulator -- who uses money and class instead of "fe**atio" to get his hooks into Mirabelle. He is completely unable to relate to her as a human being. Their conversations during their "dates" were even more painful than those with Jeremy. Note how the only personal thing he asks her is about her father! (If you want to score with a younger babe, you'd better hope they have Daddy issues, or else you ain't getting to first...)

It's great that he, against his own intentions, begins to have feelings for her, but it's a paternalistic love, not a mutual relationship. There's no sense of any joint destiny between them; his caring for her is like me buying cookies from a Girl Scout because I want to help her succeed. Only in Ray's case, she would be a hot Girl Scout that he balled at a picnic and then buys cookies from to keep her coming back. (See my thread about why casting Steve Martin in the role of Ray hurts the movie...)

Jeremy is "better" for her than Ray in that "they're both artists" and he has the potential to grow as a person. There IS some hope of a future together.

But PLEASE: Is their horrible non-starter relationship redeemed because he learns to recite relationship-o-babble?

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[–] RunAwayRunAway 18 years ago

From driverx:

I was hoping she would ditch the 2 losers and find someone else.

In my opinion, you hit the nail on the head! I'm about twenty minutes into the movie as I type this (was never one to care about spoilers), have seen Jeremy in (in)action, have barely met Ray but was still blinded by the sheen of psychological Crisco on him even for those brief moments, and would be thrilled if at this early point she backed quickly away from them both, took some computer courses or whatever, and found a nice secretarial job or whatever (I'm a retail refugee in law school now, so I had to include that).

Then again, I just heard re Ray, something like: "Mirabelle sizes him up and no alarm bells ring..." IDIOT!! Maybe all the computer courses in the world wouldn't help. Maybe a nice job as a kindergarten teacher...then again, these days, I'm sure you need computer skills for that...but I'm rambling. Back to to Fear and Loathing at Saks or whatever this is called...

"Yeah, if I change my personality, I'll let you know--you know, what I become."

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[–] mlewis78 18 years ago

I agree completely! Neither Ray nor Jeremy deserved her. Jeremy was such a loser and I couldn't get his original personal out of my head when he supposedly had "improved" himself. I liked Ray at first and was disappointed at how he turned out.

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[–] lexers728-1 19 years ago

For starters, I absolutely adored this movie. I have never been a big fan of Claire Danes, but this movie completely changed my mind! I was so glad that Mirabelle ended up with Jeremy. Ray used Mirabelle from the very beginning, buying her things to keep her in the relationship. He may have said that he loved her in the end, but he made so many mistakes and hurt her way too badly along the way for this to end up with the two of them together. On the other hand, Jeremy may have asked for a couple of bucks and been a (truly) crappy date in the beginning, but he changed his life around because of Mirabelle and he was emotionally invested in their relationship from the very beginning (remember his little "I love you" remark on their first date?) So Ray learned his lesson in the end and missed Mirabelle because she was a great girl and he could no longer have her, but so what? It was too late. So Jeremy was a little weird and needed self help tapes on love and relationships to turn his life around...I would still choose him any day!

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[–] jjamison-2 19 years ago

It was a very good movie, but I think it could have ended better if she had stayed with Ray Porter. She loved him, and at the end when it was too late, he said he loved her. Shucks. If she had stayed with him awhile longer, she could have melted his heart. As it was, she chose a cute guy who obviously loved her but was a loser. Jeremy was funny, but that kind of guy gets tiresome after awhile, if that's all he has to offer. I like to make up alternate endings to movies like this---- she realizes she wants Ray, he realizes he wants her, they meet for dinner and walk off into the L. A. sunset. Now- that's an ending !

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[–] ImagoDei 19 years ago

Hmmm. Exactly how do we know that Mirabelle "loves" Ray? Cause he pays for some dresses? Or because he's Steve Martin--so of COURSE she loves him?

For Mirabelle, once-in-a-while Ray is better than complete, abject loneliness. I honestly hope there's more to love than this!

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[–] jjamison-2 19 years ago

I think she loved Ray because she left the relationship because he didn't love her-- if she was just in it for what he could provide, she wouldn't have left him. She said "Hurt now, or hurt later." She chose to 'hurt now'.

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[–] rrico-1 19 years ago

I think we know that Mirabelle loves Ray when she whispers, "Sweetheart" when he can't hear her. She knows then that there's no possibility that he can love her the way that she wants him to.

Ray isn't all bad in the movie, and Mirabelle isn't all good. They partner for a while with their own desires clouding what the real relationship is about at first. They see what they want to see. Ray convinces himself M. knows they aren't anything but casual, M convinces herself that R will change once he gets to know her. She accepts outrageous gifts, he opens her to her own sexuality.

In the dvd, Martin states that the relationship doesn't work not for any reason of age, but a lack of commitment on Ray's part.

I loved the ending, with Ray's wistfulness in seeing M. growing up and becoming the kind of woman that he would be very attracted to. He knows he blew it badly.

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[–] The-Saltman 18 years ago

Couldn't agree more jjamison-2. I like your ending way, way better. I don't know if that ending would have given the movie the same poignancy as the ending it had though.

Sometimes when you lose, you win.

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[–] thewholecookie 19 years ago

Neither. Jeremy was a loser and Ray was selfish. Neither guy was appealing, and I'd rather her have ended up alone than with a 'cleaned up' Jeremy (who slept with her skanky coworker) who was still a loser at heart.

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[–] amtinteriors 19 years ago

Mirabelle did the right thing, and she did it at the right time. When she asked herself whether to hurt now or hurt later, she made the right choice. She did what was best for her, not what was best for her and Ray. Reciprocal love is far better, even with a guy with a few problems of his own. Ray would have never admitted his love, as long as he could get away with not admitting it. The only way for him to realize he made a mistake was to have Mirabelle leave him. This movie was extremely realistic for me. Well acted, well written, and directed well.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] WalkingWithAGhost 19 years ago

I like Jeremey

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] skaspar 19 years ago

To be honest, I completely loved Jeremy. I have a huge crush on Jason Schwartzman anyway, and I thought he was simply adorable in this film--not the brightest crayon in the box, but his intentions were sincere, unlike Ray who was slick and stylish and spent lots of money on Mirabelle, but not true in his heart. I thought Jeremy's awkwardness was really endearing and rooted for him from the beginning.

Ray on the other hand did nothing but creep me out. Jeremy may not have been the most hygienic guy around, nor have the best ideas for dates, but he had room to grow. Ray was an established jerk.

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