Then Keaton is not Batman. You do not get to have it both ways bud.
Yes he is. All you could mention was that Keaton wasn't as tall or built as comic Batman, but he captures every other trait.
That's a HUGE far cry from the Mileena actress not being as tall, not as thin, not as attractive, not as fit, not having a voice, not having an appearance, and not being able to fight like Mileena. She embodies NOTHING of Mileena's characteristics, yet you seem to ignore this.
Yet it is okay for Keaton to be balding, be short and have a tiny physique. So then Keaton is only Bruce in name then correct?
Barbara not having red hair, not being white, not being a preppy athletic college girl, and not having a nose for adventure while retaining her innocence would not make her Barbara. Keaton lacked mostly two things (hair styling and physique), but But he was still white, suave, menacing when he had to be, and had dark hair.
Barbara was never black, so that's an important trait ruined right there.
You fail to see that film is a collaborative effort.
No, you keep pushing the goal posts. SHE, as an actress, never collaborated to bring any of Mileena's traits to the film. She didn't look like, fight like, nor act like Mileena.
You say this was the writer/director's fault, and that race-swapping is okay if the performance is good, but you admit her performance wasn't good nor memorable. So what was the point of the race swap?
All it did was disservice the character and her legacy, with ZERO benefit. Casting someone who actually LOOKED or ACTED the way Mileena did for the last 30 years would have helped a lot, even with a bad script. She was neither sexy, nor alluring, nor wore Mileena's outfit, nor suggested to wear Mileena's outfit. As admitted Kung Lao at least LOOKED and ACTED like his game counterpart, even with a bad script.
So what was the point of the race swap with zero benefit?
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moviefanatic505 (6121)
4 years ago
Nope. Remember I asked you if Barbara Gordon captured every trait except that she didn't have red hair, you said then it's not Barbara Gordon. If that is the case I'm able to disqualify Keaton because of his height and physique. He is not Batman.
Attractive is your subjective opinion, her not having much of a voice is a fault of the writers and directors. Also again none of the fights in this film were good. Watch Mission Impossible fallout. That movie has better fight scenes than anything in Mortal Kombat did. It makes Cruise look like a better fighter than Joe Taslim if you simply look at Mortal Kombat. We both Know Cruise is nowhere near the fighter Taslim is.
Red hair and white are not essential to Barbara Gordon. She can still be preppy athletic, have a nose for adventure and be in college while being ethnic. Keaton lacked hair styling and physique. So the ethnic actress lacks race and hair color, similar deal. Gal Gadot is not white nor does she have blue eyes. Guess she isn't Wonder Woman. Or was it that Wonder Woman wasn't supposed to be white to begin with? Considering where she is from?
Bruce was never short nor had Keaton's hair style or physique so that's an important trait ruined right there.
Nope in calling out your stupidity and hypocrisy. Keaton didn't look like Batman. He just had the luxury of a good script he could work off of. She didn't have a good script to work off of and none of the fights In this movie were memorable or good as I said. So I guess that means Taslim is a poor martial artist and Cruise would have played sub zero better.
I said she had nothing to work with. If the actress had been swapped nothing would have changed. Even if she looked like her it would still be a hollow role. Ben Affleck looks more like Batman's comic book counterpart then Keaton does, and his physique is way closer to his comic book counterpart.. Who do people like more as Batman? Keaton because Affleck had awful scripts and honestly isn't as charismatic as an actor.
No it wouldn't have helped. Bvs is a dumpster fire. It didn't matter that Affleck looked like Batman and had good physique the movie sucked. It would have been the same here.
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cyguration (3951)
4 years ago
Nope. Remember I asked you if Barbara Gordon captured every trait except that she didn't have red hair, you said then it's not Barbara Gordon. If that is the case I'm able to disqualify Keaton because of his height and physique. He is not Batman.
Nah, I said if she didn't fit the traits she's been KNOWN for, which included red hair, athletic abilities, college kid, spunky, innocent, but with a nose for adventure. Those have been her traits for decades. Keaton only didn't embody the physique of Batman at the worst, but captured every other element.
It would be the equivalent of Barbara maybe not being as athletic or in college, which are forgivable but not deal breakers, much like Keaton's lack of a physique.
Attractive is your subjective opinion, her not having much of a voice is a fault of the writers and directors.
Nah, it's a fact since she looks nothing like Mileena as she's been portrayed for 30+ years. Mileena isn't short with wide hips and stubby arms.
So the ethnic actress lacks race and hair color, similar deal.
Nah, if she's ethnic, looks ethnic and acts ethnic, then it's a deal breaker.
Gal Gadot is not white nor does she have blue eyes. Guess she isn't Wonder Woman.
She looks white, just lacks blue eyes.
It didn't matter that Affleck looked like Batman and had good physique the movie sucked. It would have been the same here.
Ben Affleck sucked as Batman, yes. BvS sucked as a movie yes. However, people DO praise Affleck for having Batman's physique and for Batman being properly represented in the fight scenes. Almost everyone agrees the way Batman looked and fought was comic accurate. So yes, appearances DO matter when it comes to respecting a character and fans respecting that character.
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moviefanatic505 (6121)
4 years ago
Her appearance is having red hair but as I said before the writing and character's motivations matter more than appearance. The modern Spider-man films, Homecoming and Far From Home have both critical acclaim and acclaim by users. I am not the biggest fan but as you have seen Mary Jane on those is not white nor does she have red hair. Both films make plenty of money and win over audiences and critics apparently it does not bother them as much as you think. Keaton not only is short he was balding and did not have the physique.
Her looking attractive has nothing to do with her looking like Mileena. Many people consider Zendaya beautiful yet she looks nothing like her comic book counterpart. So no her being unattractive to you is subjective.
What do you mean acting ethnic? How do you act ethnic? If she is ethnic who says she can't be athletic, adventurous, in college and be preppy? Careful now you might make yourself look a certain way.
Gal Gadot looks white? LMAO! Yeah now I know you have lost the debate. No right off the bat people could tell she was ethnic and not white. First just by looking at her is a dead giveaway. That would be like someone saying Taliso Soto looks white. Epic fail here man.
People praising the fight scenes are failing to realize that the fights were all do to the directing and editing team. His arms were cgi and cape was added later in post production. Cgi and post production work is what aided in those fight scenes. Burton or Nolan did not use cgi work to help their fights. Anyway you made my point for me. Affleck has the appearance and physique, but it did not save the film. Keaton is considered a better portrayal despite Affleck looking far more like his comic book counterpart. Proof that the the writing and performance matter more. Thanks for that.
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cyguration (3951)
4 years ago
s. I am not the biggest fan but as you have seen Mary Jane on those is not white nor does she have red hair. Both films make plenty of money and win over audiences and critics apparently it does not bother them as much as you think.
Critics are all SJWs, so of course white-erasure doesn't bother them.
Fans ARE bothered by Zendaya's made-up Michelle character replacing Mary-Jane (she's not Mary Jane) and both me and many fans have complained about that A LOT. So you're absolutely wrong, since Michelle is NOTHING like Mary Jane in any way, since Mary Jane is a model, an extrovert, and a people person, the complete opposite of Michelle.
Her looking attractive has nothing to do with her looking like Mileena.
Yes, because other than her mouth (which she covers for obvious reasons) Mileena is very attractive. This chick playing her IS NOT. She's short with wide hips and completely nonathletic.
Careful now you might make yourself look a certain way.
I don't really care. I don't expect Barbara to act like a ghetto thug or like a nerdy Asian kid. She was made to act and look white. Not being either means it's not Barbara Gordon. Just like Bruce Wayne being turned black, Latino or Asian means it's no longer Bruce Wayne, just a bad imitator.
No right off the bat people could tell she was ethnic and not white.
She is absolutely white passing. She's even whiter/lighter than Chris Pine! Proof:
https://www.kget.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/12/thumbnail_wonder_woman.0.jpg?w=1280
Proof that the the writing and performance matter more.
No one said they didn't matter, but in Mileena's case she has neither writing, looks, nor performance on her side. So thanks for proving my point about how senseless the blackwashing is.
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moviefanatic505 (6121)
4 years ago
Apparently people are not bothered enough to stop supporting the product. Both Homecoming and Far From Home grossed a lot of money and both films have good reception from the mass majority. So even if you eliminate critics the point still stands. A movie such as Ghostbusters 2016 not only did it not get good reception by people but it did not do well in the box office. The new Spider-man films contradict your point. Some do have a problem but they are in the minority. Quite Frankly let them complain the rest of us will enjoy the films.
Nope. Whether she is attractive or not is subjective. Is it looking attractive or looking like Mileena? If she was a model that was black and stunning you would say she is not pretty because she does not look like Mileena. That is an ignorant statement. Even had her fights been state of the art and her performance great you would discredit her.
Why does she have to act like a ghetto thug or a nerdy Asian kid simply because she is ethnic? Barbara can be all the things you described outside of appearance while not being white. You made yourself look like a bigot and I am beginning to wonder now if you are one.
No she does not look white. Taliso Soto does not look white either. As I stated before people knew Gal Gadot was not white right off the bat.
Yes you did say they did not matter. You literally said that if Barbara Gordon was ethnic and had all the traits you describe in personality if she was not white with the red hair it would not be her. This shows you care more about her appearance than her character's performance and writing. Keaton beats Affleck by the mass majority. Affleck looks more like the comic book but in the end depth and performance are placed above looks. Substance over flash. Also Keaton was in better films. Bale was in better films also. It is why both of them are considered the better Batman actors. They had better scripts to work with.
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cyguration (3951)
4 years ago
Nope. Whether she is attractive or not is subjective. Is it looking attractive or looking like Mileena?
That's objectively wrong. Mileena is physically attractive as part of her character trait, ergo if the woman cast as her is NOT physically attractive it means she does NOT look like or embody one of Mileena's core traits, since Mileena is a femme fatale. The woman cast to play her was NOT a femme fatale.
Both Homecoming and Far From Home grossed a lot of money and both films have good reception from the mass majority.
Adjusted for inflation, and without piggybacking off of a decade's worth of the MCU's hype, Sam Raimi's trilogy still made more money:
https://donttellharry.com/2021/01/04/the-highest-grossing-spider-man-movie/
Far From Home made: $1,131,831,806
Adjusted for inflation, 2002's Spider-Man made: $1,209,848,226.03
So no, more people did not prefer the new movies over the older ones.
Barbara can be all the things you described outside of appearance while not being white.
Then it's not Barbara.
Simply put, if you want a non-white legacy character to be portrayed on-screen, create one.
Want a Tarkatan ninja-lady? Great. Make one. Don't blackwash Mileena for no reason.
Want a ghetto girl to don a Batman costume? Great, make a new character, don't diminish the legacy of Barbara to push a degenerate agenda.
Just recently they cast a black girl to play Red Sonja, a character whose name is tied to her identity (red fiery hair on a white warrior Nordic woman). Now her name doesn't even make sense with a black woman playing a character purposely made to be a white, red-headed Nordic woman.
If you want a black warrior woman, make a new character, don't destroy the iconography of existing characters.
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moviefanatic505 (6121)
4 years ago
Mileena is attractive as part of her character trait but you said the actress playing her is not attractive. A woman can be attractive while not looking like Mileena. So I am going to ask again is it her looking attractive or looking attractive while looking like Mileena?
We are not talking about which trilogy made more money if adjusted for inflation. The new Spider-man films made good money and got good reception from users. It was not a Transformers scenario where they make a ton but got slammed by critics and the public. I also never said they preferred them over the old, I said they were successful. Your ignorance is dismissed.
Nope it would be Barbara. You are the odd one out. Sit at home and we will enjoy the film. Just because she is ethnic does not mean she can't embody the character's story, or motivations.
Characters do not remain the same over time sometimes they change. How many complained about Hardy who is white portraying Bane in The Dark Knight Rises? Bane is known to be Latino Hardy is not. Also Hardy looks nothing like the comic book counterpart. So I guess he is not Bane.
Why does she have to be ghetto if ethnic? Is every black person ghetto?
I know nor care about anything Red Sonja so I do not even care to address that. I stick with what I said performance and writing will overtake appearance every day of the week. Hardy as Bane proves this.
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cyguration (3951)
4 years ago
A woman can be attractive while not looking like Mileena.
She has to be attractive according to the traits in which we define Mileena as being attractive: slim, svelte, athletic, tall, physically alluring. None of those traits were embodied by the actress. So no, she was not
attractive according to the standards for which we rate Mileena as being attractive.
Characters do not remain the same over time sometimes they change.
Then it usually means it's not that character anymore. As stated, if you want to change core traits of a character fine, make a new one. Leave fan-favorites alone.
Bane is known to be Latino Hardy is not.
Who says Hardy's rendition of Bane wasn't part Latino?
Are you being racist against whites who have or are portraying characters with a fraction of ethincity in them?
Hardy as Bane proves this.
Hardy still portrayed an ethnic, Bane, though, as evident by his accent and mannerisms. So he was still channeling core traits from the comic book.
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moviefanatic505 (6121)
4 years ago
Okay so then appearance matters more than character's story and performance. Keaton was not tall, nor did he have a good physique and was balding. In the end he performed the Batman traits well but it was because again for the millionth time he had a good script. The actress who played Mileena had an utter trash script. Even if you had A spitting image of Mileena it would not have saved this trash film. Kung Lao looked like Lao but where was his character motives? were his fights good no! Even Taslim did not have good fights. Which indicates it is a failure on the film makers part. Mission Impossible Fallout had better fights. Cruise looked like a better fighter than Taslim. That is how you know this movie sucked.
Funny how you abandoned my counter to the Spider-man argument you tried to make. I will accept that as a concession.
Then that means Tom hardy is not Bane.
Looking at him which is what you are big on he is not latino. He was not as tall as Bane nor did he have the venom, he looks nothing like the comic. So he is not Bane then correct?
He looked nothing like him though nothing! Not even close. See you just contradicted yourself again. Gadot not only did not look white she had an accent which clearly showed she was not white. Lynda Carter was white had blue eyes and spoke in a normal American accent. So why is Gadot acceptable? Shouldn't Wonder Woman be white with blue eyes and no accent since this is how she was originally conceived?
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cyguration (3951)
4 years ago
Okay so then appearance matters more than character's story and performance.
No, but drastically and purposely changing the character's appearance to piss off fans is a really bad move by the movie makers.
The actress who played Mileena had an utter trash script. Even if you had A spitting image of Mileena it would not have saved this trash film.
No one's denying that. But it was a trash script AND she looked nothing like Mileena. So what was the point of blackwashing a character to be NOTHING in ANYWAY like the character she was supposed to be?
Do you get it now?
Looking at him which is what you are big on he is not latino. He was not as tall as Bane nor did he have the venom, he looks nothing like the comic. So he is not Bane then correct?
He was depicted as physically imposing in the film, which worked. And he had an accent so he could have been part Latino. Not all Latinos are dark-skinned ya know, some like Cameron Diaz, look completely 100% white.
So why is Gadot acceptable? Shouldn't Wonder Woman be white with blue eyes and no accent since this is how she was originally conceived?
She could have an accent since she's from Grecian-society. So that's why Gadot was acceptable. She was just missing the blue eyes.
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moviefanatic505 (6121)
4 years ago
Seems to not have hurt the modern Spider-man films. Critical acclaim and acclaim by the mass majority.
The actor needs a good script to work with. She did not have that. If she had a good script and delivered good fighting and a solid performance we would not be having this conversation. You are holding her appearance against her simply because of a bad script. You are literally saying the actor who played Lou did better performance wise simply because he looked like the character. Looks and performance are not the same thing.
He still looks nothing like comic book Bane. Not one iota. Yet again to my point no one cares so long as the writing and performance is good. Same would have been the case with the Mileenan actress. If Barbara Gordon was performed well by an ethnic person you can still reach success by critics and the mass majority of people. Again modern Spider-man films prove this.
Remember though Lynda Carter does not. She needs to not only have blue eyes but an American accent as well. No change to that is acceptable.
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cyguration (3951)
4 years ago
The actor needs a good script to work with. She did not have that. If she had a good script and delivered good fighting and a solid performance we would not be having this conversation. You are holding her appearance against her simply because of a bad script.
Except the actress couldn't fight, isn't a martial artist, isn't even a model. A good script can't save bad casting, as evident with Jared Leto cast as the Joker.
If Barbara Gordon was performed well by an ethnic person you can still reach success by critics and the mass majority of people.
Nah, most people would reject her. All critics are SJWs so they accept blackwashing and white-erasure.
Majority of people did not accept Zendaya as a replacement for Mary-Jane. They were tolerant of her as Michelle Jones simply because she wasn't Mary-Jane. There's a difference between the two.
Remember though Lynda Carter does not. She needs to not only have blue eyes but an American accent as well. No change to that is acceptable.
Yeah it is because Wonder Woman was never explicitly stated to have an American accent. So Wonder Woman having a foreign accent (so long as it isn't too Asian or African) is fine.
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moviefanatic505 (6121)
4 years ago
She did not have long enough fight scenes to see if she could fight or not. Also does not matter if she was martial artist or not it would not have helped. Joe Taslim is a martial artist and his fights were still not good. Answer a simple question can Tom Cruise fight?
Nope most people still showed up to see the modern Spider-man films. Even when people thought she was Mary Jane they showed up in droves to see Far From Home. The movie has critical acclaim and acclaim from users. I will put more stock in them than you quite Frankly. Even if you dismiss critics as sjws it does not take away the average person. As it stands the new Spider0man films are liked by both. It is you who is in the minority. Also they are dancing around it but she is the new MJ.
Raiden being white when he is hinted at being japanese never bothered you is what I find funny.
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cyguration (3951)
4 years ago
She did not have long enough fight scenes to see if she could fight or not.
She can't fight at all, check her social media pages, she's not a martial artist.
Also does not matter if she was martial artist or not it would not have helped.
Yes because she would at least LOOK physically fit. The girl had a wide bottom, flat arms, and no definition to her body. She wasn't even hot. She had ZERO going for her as Mileena. Nothing.
Tom Cruise fight?
Nope, he needs really good choreography and camerawork to help him. But he can act, something that Mileena actress couldn't do.
Raiden being white when he is hinted at being japanese never bothered you is what I find funny.
His origins are in Japanese mythology but he was ALWAYS depicted as white in the games, movies, and comic books.
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moviefanatic505 (6121)
4 years ago
Lol you think by checking her social media pages that proves she is not a martial artist? As I said before it would not make a difference, Joe Taslim we know is a good martial artist and his fights sucked.
Also no I disagree. Even the characters who look their parts fights were garbage.
We do not know if she can act. She was not given enough to work with to see. You could have had Meryl Streep in her prime youth and it would not have made this character look any better. She had what 3 lines in the film?
So were Mileena, Scorpion Sub Zero and Kitana. It does not mean they were not meant to be Asian or Polynesian. So no wrong.
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cyguration (3951)
4 years ago
It does not mean they were not meant to be Asian or Polynesian.
No, it was clearly stated Sub-Zero was Chinese and Scorpion was Japanese.
Kitana and Mileena were clearly Edenian, and looked like a mix of Asian/Polynesian/Mediterranean. They kept that consistent for multiple decades, just like Raiden was always voiced by and looked like a white guy,.
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moviefanatic505 (6121)
4 years ago
Yet they were portrayed by white actors in the the original games. Yet I did not hear one peep out of you.
No Raiden was supposed to be Japanese. As I said look who he is based off of. Also do you deny that certain characters change over time? Or do they stay the same forever?
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cyguration (3951)
4 years ago
Yet I did not hear one peep out of you.
Because they looked CORRECT. The Mileena actress did not.
No Raiden was supposed to be Japanese.
Nope. He was based on Japanese mythology but he's an elder god, so he was NEVER supposed to be Japanese. Hence why he's always been played by a white guy for 30+ years.
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moviefanatic505 (6121)
4 years ago
Hardy did not look like Bane. Affleck looked more like Bruce than Keaton yet Keaton is considered more definitive.
Um no he was supposed to be Japanese. I proved this. Scorpion and Sub Zero were played by white guys despite them being Asian. Also I am going to use your logic he looked like Raiden. So no big deal.
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