On the situation of the Rape scene - Havoc (2005) Discussion

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] dkalmbac 17 years ago

The argument that she put herself into the situation and it was her fault that she get raped is asinine. That's like saying if someone parks his/her Lexus in downtown Detroit and forgets to lock it and then it gets stolen, that the car deserved to get stolen because he/she should know better. Of course putting yourself in high risk situations shows poor judgment and often boasts negative consequences, but that doesn't give anyone the right to rape you or steal your vehicle. It's sad that many of you are adults and actually have to exercise your "judgment" in the real world.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] MyDarkStar 15 years ago

That's like saying if someone parks his/her Lexus in downtown Detroit and forgets to lock it and then it gets stolen, that the car deserved to get stolen because he/she should know better.

No, you're trying to make it seem too innocent. It would be more like if you parked your car in downtown Detroit, and then walked over to some guy on the street, handed him your keys, and then said "Please take my car."

That's essentially what the girls did. They asked what they had to do to hang with their crew, and they were given the option. They both opted for it and so it began. The girl even agreed to do more than 1 guy at a time. Just because she didn't specifically say she didn't want something shoved up her a$$ doesn't mean what they did was "rape".

I almost never say "she was asking for it" in these situations - but she was asking for it.

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[–] actionmanrandell 14 years ago

no actualy they roled dice on how many people they would have to sleep wiith one roled a 1 the other roles multiples so she was going to have sex with more then one man but not at the same time

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[–] MyDarkStar 14 years ago

She agreed to have sex with two guys by rolling dice. At that point does it matter if it was at the same time ?

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[–] leannetjuh 12 years ago

Uhh well yeah, she obviously did not enjoy double penetration.

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[–] deppsgirl18 11 years ago

you must be a man, and a man void of empathy, because YES there is a big difference between sleeping with one man and then another and being double penetrated at the same time. The character did not agree to DP.

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[–] MyDarkStar 11 years ago

You're right. I was underestimating the moral threshold of a girl who decides which guy she'll *beep* first by rolling dice.

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[–] professor_obsessor 18 years ago

Way to spoil a film by posting a big ole spoiler in the title of the thread *rolls eyes*

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[–] valerie_lp 18 years ago

How about this analogy: no one deserves to be robbed, either. If you walk down the street waving a wad of bills, people might argue that "you had it coming," "you're an adult and you were playing with fire," etc. (Or maybe it was what you were wearing...) However, if someone then robs you, IT'S STILL A CRIME; the perpetrator is still a criminal, and the victim is still a victim.

Clear now, everyone?

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[–] abellinger 17 years ago

sure... IF it had been rape.

they rolled the dice, literally, and asked to be 'initiated'.

so it wasn't a 'rape scene'.

clear now?

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[–] glocktwentyseven 17 years ago

exactly.

and what is this stuff about Allison being 'spared'?

the guy who was with Allison had no intention of raping anybody.

in fact, none of them had the intent to force anything.

you people who claim it is rape are completely skirting the issue of 'intent'.

those guys didn't want to rape.

they just wanted to have sex with a girl who said she was down for it.

as soon as they realized she was no longer down to have sex, they stopped.

you're telling me that the second she felt pain or discomfort or uncertainty, then it was 'rape'?

if a doctor is treating me for a broken arm, and she moves my arm in a way that makes me feel afraid, uncertain or uncomfortable, should i have her arrested for 'assault'?

there has to be criminal intent.

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[–] hodie 15 years ago

Glock, you don't know what you're talking about. Intent to penetrate is what is enough, not "intent to rape", which is a meaningless concept.

As soon as the man acted against her will, it was rape. That is enough to make it legally rape. Penetration without consent is rape. I'll say it again: penetration without consent is RAPE.

Whether it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury is an entirely different question.

And yes, a doctor CAN batter a patient. It's possible. If a doctor is unnecessarily rough he can be liable for battery. Again, it's a matter of proof.

I was an actor once, damn it. NOW look at me. LOOK at me!

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[–] dragon2777 15 years ago

WHEN SHE FREAKED OUT THEY STOPPED MAKING IT NOT RAPE.

Sorry for the caps lock but it was necessary. After she said No and STOP thats exactly what they did. Oh and if anyone cares I am a lawyer.

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[–] RavenGlamDVDCollector 9 years ago

I would concede that there wasn't any rape. I would however stress that the event as portrayed with 'noble savages' is very, very unlikely to happen. Guys are dogs, and horny gangbanger lowlifes aren't likely to back off, come on! Making this movie with its hip-hop thug soundtrack unrealistic. Hector DID come across as a guy with SOME fiber, none of the other scumbags did.

If the movie was, however, of a real-life incident (like caught on surveillance) I would grant that no rape took place. The girls did agree and the guys DID STOP when the girls said NO.

The nearly-raped girl DID agree to ANYTHING as long as she got to choose WHICH THREE. That was a stupid mistake, but counts as consent.

I do not, however, side with the guys. They are horrendous cockroaches. They still deserve jailtime. Wouldn't shed one tear for them if something nasty could be arranged for them...

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[–] actionmanrandell 14 years ago

dude you are crazy first off all they were intent on having sex with her thats it she never once said i dont want a gangbang but one he motioned for a gangbang she said no and that was the end of it in no way would she have won a rape case. because there is no rape

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[–] Word-Weight 9 years ago

How is intent to penetrate enough to process it the way you stated it when she both intended and consented to have sex? Not at all siding with the men who handled it the way they handled it, but that specific play on words confused me.

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] ComtessaLaRue 16 years ago

I think the thing we need to look at here is not only the issue of rape, but sexual assault. Yes, Emily consented to having sex... with HECTOR, not forced anal with his older brother and homeboy simultaneously. The second those men decided it was going to be a gangbang orgy, not a "taking turns" thing, the consent was withdrawn, and a sexual offense was committed.
Lastly, and this may have just been poor or poorly thought out editing, it seemed to me that they didn't stop until Allison charged in.

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[–] eYeDEF 15 years ago

"I can handle 3, it's just sex, my only condition is that I get to choose the 3".

Sorry, but those words said after consenting to a gang initiation is explicit and undeniable consent to a gang bang. How were these guys to perceive it any other way? She even stated her 'only condition' and there was never a 'it has to be one at a time and no group sex'.

If you watch the scene again, the guys clearly stop as soon as they RECOGNIZE that what she's screaming for is for them to stop. But clearly when Alison runs into the room, the 3rd guy watching has already recognized this and has a look of horror and repulsion on his face that this girl who was so clearly saying she was willing to do all 3, no holes barred except she got to choose which, was now crying for them to stop. The 2nd guy splits in disgust, calling her "loco" on the way out. And Hector was so bewildered he shouted "What do you expect us to do?".

Sorry, but that's not a sexual offense.

Some fellows get credit for being conservative when they are only stupid.
- Kin Hubbard

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[–] tasheamoore 12 years ago

BLAH BLAH BLAH!

She knew what she was doing! I don't condone rape but she wasn't RAPED! The second she freaked out and expressed that she no longer wanted to be involved in the little orgy, they stopped right away. Its just like when Hector stopped for her friend when she said she couldn't do it. She wasn't raped, she wasn't almost raped, she said she could handle three and that it was just sex. Poor little rich girl cries home to daddy because she can't handle the hood she PERPETRATED!

I thought her actions were disgusting and cost people their LIVES , she lied and it was silly. Her and her friend shouldn't have been hanging with them to begin with!

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[–] KingJohnTX 16 years ago

While I agree rape is not condonable, that analogy isn't right. It would be more like if you were to give someone your car and then before they took off in it said that you want it back. Just like the girls stopped them before they finished the guys didn't force themselves on them ,the girls allowed them to be with them.

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[–] bbonacci-1 15 years ago

No it's not clear. You are still getting it wrong. The person would not be just waving a wad of bills, they would be saying, PLEASE TAKE MY MONEY!

NOW it's clear.

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[–] bgbdsuisue 15 years ago

get over, its just a part of the movie, not the whole thing. Heres a suggestion, if your worried about spoiler, don't read the comments about the movie before whatching the movie! ::Rolls EYES::<<<<and that takes talent!

Yea, no one deserves to get raped! Tho, she shouldn't have tried to call that rape! And i bet she wont do that *beep* again! But i agree, some people are sick and think it's funny to post good stuff about rape online, cuz in real life they are too scared to say anything they really feel, so they blow up online.

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[–] quiksilver69 18 years ago

it wasnt rape dammit... watch the movie.. they wanted to join the gang.. they were to sleep with someone in the gang.. when she did she was into it.. but if u watched it again.. he did stop.. not right away.. but he did stop.. and her being dumb and drunk she freaked out.. girls drunk and sober to freak out after sex happens.. trust me i know.. i had someone freak out like 5 mins after we started.. and i did stop.. so are u saying i raped her???

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[–] shannon77 17 years ago

if you stopped as soon as she said stop that is not rape..but the key is as soon as someone says no its no or its rape.It was rape in the movie

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[–] glocktwentyseven 17 years ago

but they stopped when she said no.

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[–] EvSparkles 15 years ago

but they stopped when she said no.

They stopped when she said no, but she never said the second guy come force his way behind her in the first place.

Chuck Norris once killed a man by simply showing him how to love.

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[–] eYeDEF 15 years ago

How can people be so wrong on this point? I'll repeat at the risk of reptition:

She ALREADY CONSENTED TO THE THE GANG BANG IN THE FIRST PLACE, even if she didn't realize that she had.

"I can handle three, it's just sex, my only condition is that I get to choose the 3".

Sorry, but those words said after consenting to a gang initiation is explicit and undeniable consent to a gang bang. How were these guys to perceive it any other way? She even stated her 'only condition' and there was never a 'it has to be one at a time and no group sex'. The movie could not make this point any clearer that she verbally consented to group sex whether she intended to or not.

Once you try and start making arguments that when a woman says 'yes', but a guy should STILL know better and take that for 'no' you're demeaning the entire female sex by implying that what women say can't be taken seriously or at face value.

Some fellows get credit for being conservative when they are only stupid.
- Kin Hubbard

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[–] morganchaos 15 years ago

If someone "doesn't realize" they've consented to something, that's called not consenting. That's why there's an age of consent, because before that you're considered not to understand what you're agreeing to. Your consent applies to what you intend for it to apply to, not what it sounds like it applies to. You can think that's a fair law or not, but that's what it is.

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[–] mrs-jindrak 15 years ago

most people don't realize this but the age of consent in most states is not 18.
where i live it's 16.
so a victim would have to be 15 or younger in a stat rape case.

regardless, this was not at all rape... not even at all.

a few painful thrusts.

they stopped when she said stopped. looked like she started crying before she was able to communicate to them to stop.... so a few seconds. that's not the guys' fault. clearly they thought she was down she was turned on by the whole thing, & they'd obviously done this sort of thing with girls before.

when she said she wanted to, they went ahead, when she said stop, they stopped.

not rape, seriously.

look if my bf gets my hair caught under his arm while he's thrusting me & i'm crying out for a few seconds before i'm able to catch my breath & tell him "dude, get off my hair!"...
does that mean he was assaulting me, pulling me by the hair, yanking on my hair, or inflicting anything on me?
during sex people literally invade each other's space. but i didn't see any rape.

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[–] ferreira0665 11 years ago

She also never said he couldn't. It wasn't until the act started that she didn't want it. It wasn't rape. That was actually what the whole thing was about. She wasn't raped. She just didn't want to follow through with what she initially agreed to do. They stopped. She wasn't raped. I don't think they realized at first that she didn't want it. But once it was made clear they all stopped.

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[–] geoffrey-roche 16 years ago

The key is (well in australia anyhow) you take longer than 14secs then it is rape. The last time I checked it was 14secs. But it's not like your going to be counting how long that person takes to stop.

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[–] rubybird3000-1 17 years ago

As other people said they were playing with fire and they got burned. I don't believe they deserved to get raped but they had it coming.

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[–] misspiggie 17 years ago

They're lucky!

Emily wanted it and they went, and when she didn't want it they stopped. In real life the guys would have kept going. She was upset and shaken but it wasn't rape.

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[–] swimeasy2 17 years ago

Emily WAS being raped, in the asss, cos the second guy penetrated her without real consent. That's obvious! also means in a way that for the last part of intercourse with the two guys, she was actually being raped by both of them at the same time, cos she struggled calling for the whole thing to stop and they they didn't. Whilst they carried on 'raping' her, the third guy was watching.

Then, Anne Hathaway heard Emily's screams from outside and went into the room to help at which point the guys slowed down and Emily got away.

I know what you mean, but I think it was clearly rape, just that once Anne burst in it stopped. If she hadn't I don't think the guys would have cared a damn about Emily saying "No" and would have just kept taking turns. Sure it was a fine-line, but still a rape in my opinion.

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[–] marajohnsen 17 years ago

Swimeasy2, you have it right. Emily wasn't initially raped, but it BECAME rape when the second guy was motioned over by Hector.

I was a bit confused by Hathaway's character though. Did she not think any of the situation was rape or was she simpmly trying to protect her family and friends from gang retaliation?

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] lferrigon-1 17 years ago

It could be both. She and Emily did consent to this in the beginning and she could worry that the gang might come after them for sending the cops on them.

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[–] JustPassingTime 17 years ago

"I was a bit confused by Hathaway's character though. Did she not think any of the situation was rape or was she simpmly trying to protect her family and friends from gang retaliation?"

People always seem to want to write their own meanings into movies when a scene challenges them emotionally or morally.

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[–] actionmanrandell 14 years ago

dude you a dumb ass in no way does motioning a guy over constitute as rape...lets look it at this way
if im banging a girl and i call buddy over and he starts joining in that is not rape.. now once she says stop and my buddy doesnt stop then its rape but in this movie she clearly tells them to stop and they stop.. therefore its not rape

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[–] PurpleNiobe 17 years ago

I know what you mean, but I think it was clearly rape, just that once Anne burst in it stopped. If she hadn't I don't think the guys would have cared a damn about Emily saying "No" and would have just kept taking turns. Sure it was a fine-line, but still a rape in my opinion.

Emily freaked out and then they stopped. They were pissed and confused, but they stopped. They didn’t stop just because Allison ran into the room. And people…please stop saying she was saying “No” and “Stop”. She was crying out but those words never came out of her mouth. When it did, the got off of her.

The thing that makes it a fine line is the fact that the other guy jump in, but this appears to me to just be an example of a group of people with different understanding. Emily and the gang consented to her doing three guys…she just was thinking one at a time, and they were thinking all at once. When you’re initiated into a gang, you do whatever THEY want you to do, and I don’t think Emily understood that.

Another reason I have a problem with the whole rape scenarios is the fact that Emily only pointed out Hector as her rapist when he was in fact the one she hand picked. IMHO that was a good indication that she was looking for a “quick fix” for her drunken mistake, and not justice for a rape.

The problem I have with Allison is she really wasn’t in the room to say whether it was rape or not.

When the hurly-burly's done. When the battle's lost and won.

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[–] hayo310 16 years ago

just because she never said "no" or "stop" right away doesn't mean that they should've kept going. i know they are gang members and are supposed to not care but i think that someone crying and screaming and in obvious pain (unless your into that) during sex signals that this person wants it to stop. i think some of the posters need to put themselves in this girls shoes. i don't think she really was expecting to get banged by 3 guys AT THE SAME TIME.

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[–] Maddywoo13 17 years ago

Well, I'd put it this way: I don't think it was rape. I think it was unbelievibly poor judgement and like other people said, "Playing with fire" cause they were. It was fully consentual(sp?) up until she finally realized what they really meant by "3". Yeah, it took them a short bit to stop but they did stop and if it was really rape, they would've never stopped. Obviously, she's never heard the term, "gangbanger" which shocks the hell out of me. I believe no one truly deserves to be raped, but when you make stupid judgements like that sometimes your ass is just asking for a check you can't cash

We are the village green preservation society
God save donald duck, vaudeville and variety

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[–] glocktwentyseven 17 years ago

again with the lexus analogy...

that's a terrible analogy because it objectifies the victim.

besides, victimization of property and victimization of a person isn't even close to being the same thing.

i agree with PurpleNiobe.

she wasn't raped.

when she told them to stop, they stopped.

if we're playing flag football, and i get overzealous and knock you over, you're telling me you would immediately call the police on me for "assault"?

if you let me smoke a cigarette in your car and some hot ash falls on the carpet and starts smoldering, you're telling me you would have me arrested for "arson"?

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[–] pyrosoap21 16 years ago

No, she wasn't raped. If I'm having sex with a girl and it slips out and goes into her ass, is that considered rape? She told them that she'd have sex with them. And there was nothing said in the scene about only having sex with one guy at a time. I have the movie on my computer, and I just watched the scene, right when she says stop, they stop.

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[–] flowers_on_the_razorwire 15 years ago

Well let's see. If you accidentaly slip it in the wrong orifice, but you stop when she tells you to, then no, it's not rape. However, if you keep going even though she's telling you to stop then yes, that would be rape.

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[–] glocktwentyseven 17 years ago

This is such bullsh!t!

So if I were to walk into an all Irish neighborhood and start talking sh!t about Irish people, you're saying I don't deserve to get my ass beat by the local residents?

You're letting those girls off the hook too easily.

True, not everybody who is victimized deserves or invites it.

But not everybody victim is completely innocent, either.

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[–] eminemincubusgrl 17 years ago

No one deserves to get raped, it wasn't rape, they did in fact ask for it, and in my opinion though I enjoyed this movie throughly and a lot more then I probably should have those kids were *beep* morons and they had everything coming to them that happened.

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[–] kelticman 17 years ago

they did not deserve to be violated.

but if you light a match, you can get burned.

if i was hector's lawyer i could it reduced to aggravated assault easy.

otherwise, it would be sworn court testimony to the public that em consented to sex with 3 men, then begged HARDER HARDER.

no way that was rape. that was sexual assualt.

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[–] im_sofa_king_cool 17 years ago

i first watched this movie last nite. and the first thing i said when the rape scene was over was "that is totally *beep* up!" and no one deserves to be raped, no matter how stupid they are or act

Christian: The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.

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[–] TheRogueLover 17 years ago

I watched the film today and my verdict is........

it was rape.

when they came back to the scene and she was doing 2 guys, she was struggling and saying no and was in discomfort, then they beckoned the 3rd guy over and she was screaming no and trying to get away. They were holding her down and then Allison burst in and stoped them, then they stormed off shouting abuse.

yes she shouldnt have drunk and said she would do 3 guys. She should have stopped straight away when allison treid to get her to leave, hell they shouldnt have even gone to the party in my opinion but she was definately being raped and why allison was saying it wasn't rape afterward baffled me.

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[–] babyloo45 17 years ago

hey i just the i saw him in home depot thing
i just gotta say your lucky your from cali right?
byeeeeee

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[–] eminemincubusgrl 17 years ago

She said it wasn't rape, because her friend had agreed to it. She probably only expected one at a time, and didn't want anyone *beep* her in the ass which is why she freaked out. Otherwise she probably wouldn't have say anything or freaked out.

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[–] TheRogueLover 17 years ago

but once she says 'no' they have to stop or it is rape and she was saying now and they didnt move, the got the other guy instead and she had to push them off then allison rushe din and thats then the latinos left, if allison hadn't they would have just forced her making it cast iron rape.

I also reckon there must have been something cut coz emaily was coughing when allison came in and none of them had gone near her mouth so either they were choking her or the 3rd guy stuck his dick in her mouth and they cut that part of the scene.

point is, why didnt allison back her? sh eis her friend, why back the lationo guyes that didnt give a *beep* about either of them?

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[–] eminemincubusgrl 17 years ago

Um yea could be that or the fact that she had smoked and drank a lot and was pushing people off her which in itself can be tiring.
Uh she was obviously a moron for one, and also cuz she didn't think it was rape.

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[–] TheRogueLover 17 years ago

aye I suppose so.

still stupid to me, if I was emily I wouldnt be friends with that allison after that *beep* went down, I mean telling her folks and not backing her? stupid.

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[–] eminemincubusgrl 17 years ago

She got herself into it her parents somewhat had a right to know why any of that may have gone down the way it did, but yea still pretty *beep* up.

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[–] PurpleNiobe 17 years ago

I also reckon there must have been something cut coz emaily was coughing when allison came in and none of them had gone near her mouth so either they were choking her or the 3rd guy stuck his dick in her mouth and they cut that part of the scene.

You’re reading way to into that. She was coughing because she has just finished screaming. No one was choking her or forcing her into oral sex. When she cried out, the [angrily] got off of her, and Allison ran in. That was only a few seconds.

While I believe Emily wasn’t raped, I at first was annoyed with Allison because I felt that she wasn’t in the room to know what happened either way.

But then I remembered…Emily made the cops think she was cornered in a room and was suddenly attacked. She conveniently left out rolling the dice, walking into the room on her own free will, setting some of her own rules, refusing to leave when Allison wanted, etc.

That’s where Allison’s confusion came from. When she was first questioned by the cops about the rape, it was so out of the blue she honestly didn’t know what they were talking about. It wasn’t until her parents told her that they believed she wasn’t there based on the information Emily told the police that Allison realized the story wasn’t right. She burst into tears because she felt terrible...but her parents read that as “Oh, she’s just relieved that we believe her.”

still stupid to me, if I was emily I wouldnt be friends with that allison after that *beep* went down, I mean telling her folks and not backing her? stupid.

IF you honestly thought your friend was lying about a rape and was about to let a guy go to prison for something he wouldn’t do, wouldn’t you say something? Being a good friend should only go so far.

When the hurly-burly's done. When the battle's lost and won.

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[–] TheRogueLover 17 years ago

ok I may have read a bit into the coughing, maybe that was my mind and too much porn lol.

well I dont think she did at first coz thats why the police questioned allison, they thought she was there in the room - which she was for some it and then the story changed to she was in a different room to emily.

dont get me wrong, emily and allison were both stupid to it but when she was nearly forced and then the guy was violent with her when she tried to get emily out of there and then the state she was in and then the abuse they got and then hector the next day, it was stupid she didnt back her friend up and it was a rape.

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[–] PurpleNiobe 17 years ago

It was not rape, RogueLover.

Emily may have been crying out during the sex act, but there was never a verbal no. When she couldn’t take it anymore and freaked out, they got off of her.

Watch the movie again. It was more than “Oh, we thought you were in the room with Emily but now we know you weren’t” Allison’s parents actually said that Emily was cornered in a room when she was attached in not so many words. Emily made it clear that she was making the cops think she was just some innocent girl at a party who suddenly found three guys all over her.

Hector did slam Allison back down on the bed probably in an attempt for rough foreplay, but when he saw she was serious about wanting to stop, he got off of her. They weren’t looking to rape anyone…Allison and Emily gave every indication that they were totally into everything, only to do a complete turn around and freak out on them. Hence, why he yelled “What the fck do you WANT?!”

Granted, I MIGHT have come to my friend first and told her that she needed to stop lying about being raped before announcing it so abruptly in front of her parents, but Allison did the right thing.

When the hurly-burly's done. When the battle's lost and won.

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[–] TheRogueLover 17 years ago

It WAS rape.

oh and crying is a really good indicator that she is loving it. Watch it again she clearly says NO and the carry on and then she says it again when the 3rd guy comes in and she has to forced them off of her.

I have, they didnt says she was attacked. They start out by presing allison coz they think she was there andsaw it or some of it anywa and then the folks later say they now know that allison wasn't in the room and emily was seperated off in another room - NOT cornered. I guess she was right coz when the actual sex took place they was in seperate rooms.

Rough froeply??? She was already starting to cry and so said "no I can't do this" and he pushed her down , held her there with his hands round her throat and when she BEGGED him while crying he finally let her up.

Yes they gave every indication that they were up for it but your forgetting a woman always has the right to withdraw consent including when in the act of sex itself which Emily did when the 2 guys were having her.

yeah he said what do they want because they are gangbangers who dont care about women, just having sex inlcuding doing girls 3 or more at a time. Remember the dice game? That gangbanger guy shouted out 6 and 7 when allison was doing her turn and she went "oh *beep* realising she could end up having to 6 or 7 guys.

This is especialy backed up by real life gangs in LA who do have initions involving gangbans and gang rape.

She didn't do the right thin, not by her friend. They shouldnt have said they'd do the gangsters for sure but she should have back her friend.

I am a guy saying this by the way and I say it was rape.

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[–] PurpleNiobe 17 years ago

oh and crying is a really good indicator that she is loving it. Watch it again she clearly says NO and the carry on and then she says it again when the 3rd guy comes in and she has to forced them off of her.

I did watch it, RogueLover. I disagree. And I never said crying was a good indicator that she was loving it. She clearly wasn’t. But when you’re initiated into a gang via beat down by the group, I highly doubt that guy is enjoying it, but he’s got to do it to get into the gang. An initiation is not about your enjoyment.

I have, they didnt says she was attacked. They start out by presing allison coz they think she was there andsaw it or some of it anywa and then the folks later say they now know that allison wasn't in the room and emily was seperated off in another room - NOT cornered. I guess she was right coz when the actual sex took place they was in seperate rooms.

I will watch this scene when I get the chance, but even what you said is still different that what she let the cops know if she left out going into the room voluntary and then refusing the leave when Allison tried to get her to. That’s the reason why she was “separated.”

Rough froeply??? She was already starting to cry and so said "no I can't do this" and he pushed her down , held her there with his hands round her throat and when she BEGGED him while crying he finally let her up.

Key element here being he let her up, so I’m not sure what your point is here.

Yes they gave every indication that they were up for it but your forgetting a woman always has the right to withdraw consent including when in the act of sex itself which Emily did when the 2 guys were having her.

I’m not forgetting that. As a woman I’m WELL aware of that. The point is, when she withdrew consent, they stopped.

yeah he said what do they want because they are gangbangers who dont care about women, just having sex inlcuding doing girls 3 or more at a time. Remember the dice game? That gangbanger guy shouted out 6 and 7 when allison was doing her turn and she went "oh *beep* realising she could end up having to 6 or 7 guys.

You can’t have it both ways, RogueLover. Either they are vicious men in a gang or they’re not. On minute you give every indication that they rape without cause because they don’t care about women, but then forget that if that were true of these men, Hector would not have let Allison up, and neither one of them would be allowed to leave until they were finished.

When the hurly-burly's done. When the battle's lost and won.

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[–] TheRogueLover 17 years ago

thats no excuse, what I am saying is by the time of the crying she wasn't enjoying it or consenting to it, it was a clearly forced act.

Well with watching a movie you don't know if they did mention the voluntrary part of it, its not liek they said they got kidnapped so they must have known there was some consent going on. the girls willing went to the party and saw the guys, it was the act itself - the most important part, they were concerned with and they was seperated. Also Allison changed her mind an dleft the room but didnt leave voluntarily, she was forced out by the gangbanger on hector's order so she didn't just abandon her exactly.

Your saying that Hector did nothing wrong or wasn't capable of raping when he was, he was gonna rape allison but then last second changed his mind - doesn't make him a hero, probably just relaised she was more with it and connected then her friend so he could get done.

They DIDN'T stop, thats the point, she had to force them off her and then allison came in befor eanything else could happen.

wha??? Just coz Hector spared allison a rape doesn't mean the others including himself didn't rape emily.

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[–] PurpleNiobe 17 years ago

thats no excuse, what I am saying is by the time of the crying she wasn't enjoying it or consenting to it, it was a clearly forced act.

Obviously it wasn’t a clearly forced act if people have been on here for months debating about it.

Well with watching a movie you don't know if they did mention the voluntrary part of it,

Yes we do know. Allison said “You didn’t mention the dice…” Being that the only guy arrested was the one guy Emily hand picked, I’d say there were a lot of things left out of her story that she knew damn well would tell people she wasn’t raped.

They DIDN'T stop, thats the point, she had to force them off her and then allison came in befor eanything else could happen.

They didn’t stop because they didn’t know until she freaked out that she wanted to. For all they knew, she wanted to see her initiation into the gang to the end. She’s not physically able to push three men off her, they got off her on their own accord.

wha??? Just coz Hector spared allison a rape doesn't mean the others including himself didn't rape emily.

And just because you think he was going to rape Allison doesn’t mean he raped Emily. It’s can’t be rape because “She didn’t like it”, it has to be rape because “They didn’t stop”, and they did.

When the hurly-burly's done. When the battle's lost and won.

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[–] TheRogueLover 17 years ago

well if a girl says 'no' to sex or duing sex and the guy carries on then its clearly rape - legally defined to.

ok you have a point on the dice and I don't know why she didn't say anything about the other 2 guys, unless she didn't know there names or something. She just focused on the one guy she could recognised and knew his name.

They didn't stop at all, of course she could pus them off. They guys are all thinking about sex and focusing on their dicks, at least one or 2 of them laid down and she was super stressed out which can give you extra strength on occaion so she could have pushed them off, which she did.

They didn't stop after she said 'no', that makes it rape.

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[–] glocktwentyseven 17 years ago

this is pointless.

we can't even agree whether they stopped when she said no or not.

when I watched the scene, I saw clearly that they stopped once she protested.

I wasn't high or drunk or otherwise distracted when watching that scene.

I know what I saw.

was it a sh!tty situation?

yes.

were the guys selfish, uncommunicative & insensitive?

yes.

did they hurt her?

yes.

did they intend to rape her?

no.

it was 'rough sex' that got too far out of hand.

but it didn't cross the line to being forcible rape.

i'm sorry but it didn't, and even Allison knew that.

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[–] PurpleNiobe 17 years ago

I gotta agree with glocktwenty.

To tell you the truth, this discussion is getting kind of boring. I've had it before. Just how many times can we do the whole "No it wasn't/Yes it was" argument?

We're didn't see the same things, we're not going to change each other's mind, what else is there to say?

When the hurly-burly's done. When the battle's lost and won.

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[–] TheRogueLover 17 years ago

well lets hope you 2 aren't on a jury in a rape trial maybe?

lol

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[–] PurpleNiobe 17 years ago

Why, you want people to go to prison for a crime they didn't commit?

LOL.

When the hurly-burly's done. When the battle's lost and won.

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[–] chclinkscale 17 years ago

In a straight-up court case with accurate, sworn testimony (by both girls and all three men) and an impartial jury, none of these three men would or should be convicted of rape/sexual assault. (This all being contingent on the ages of the girls (age of consent or not, depending on California state law) and the men. If the girl in question was underage, any of the men over the age of consent would be subject to conviction for, and guilty of, statutory rape.)

What would more likely happen would be that any or all of the bangers ALLEGEDLY responsible for the 'rape' wowould be arrested for the assault, but would probably just be processed for any outstanding warrants or parole violations (consorting with known felons, drug use, etc.) previously accrued. No DA would take an obviously losing case to court with the available evidence in this situation.

And that's United States' jurisprudence, like it or not.

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[–] yogsottoth 16 years ago

It's all cause of bad directing. We didn't really understand what was going on, it was all so fast. Her distress wasn't emphasized at all. What we see is a girl who wants it harder and suddenly turns into a sweet innocent victim of a 'vicious' rape. It wasn't shot good, not at all and the director wasted her one chance to be impressive and dramatic.

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[–] kmk727 16 years ago

Honestly, I didn't see it as rape. She asked for it and she consented. Now, granted if they're underage, it was obviously statutory rape no matter what, but in the case of force, they never raped her. I agree with yogosottoth; bad directing.

Kiera

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[–] VWaltz77 16 years ago

A defense attorney would argue that she rolled the dice and got a three. Who is to say that all three couldn't be at once?

Her credibility (in a court of law) would then be questioned as soon as she said she rolled the dice.

--

"...This is Deputy Van Halen down at the station."

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[–] ethanbellamy 16 years ago

A prosecutor would argue that she was 17.

If anyone's credibility is in question it would be Hector's and the others.

Grown adults screwing around and giving alcohol to minors.

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[–] 16 years ago

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