'Self defense isn't murder.'
That's what Mitch should have said if he killed Slim at the end.
shareYeah, but she wasn't stalking him, trying to sabotage his life, now was she?
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MovieChat Forums > Enough (2002) Discussion > 'Self defense isn't murder.'
Just saw this for the first time last night on TBS. As a whole, it wasn't very plausible, but I think most people on this thread are misreading the line in question.
She is NOT warning him that she is about to commit an act of self-defense against him. She is clearly telling him, "I am going to murder you and here's how I'm going to get away with it." It's in the tradition of the "talking gun" where the bad guy has a gun on the hero and spends five minutes revealing every detail of his evil plan so that (usually) the good guy will then know exactly how to defeat the villain once they get out of their immediate sticky wicket. In this case, the roles are somewhat reversed, so the outcome DOES essentially go according to plan, but that's still the type of speech it is. She tells him she found his guns and cut off his phones so "there's no way out this time, Dr. Jones," and that she planted fake evidence to make it look like he lured her there to reconcile and that she is therefore going to get away with saying it was self defense, which would legally exonerate her from any possible murder charge. In other words, she's saying, "You're screwed, *beep*
Her use of the expression "self defense" in this line only deals with the legal technicalities. In the bigger picture, the movie spent 90 minutes telling us this guy would not stop coming after her any sooner than Freddy, Jason, and Michael Myers are going to grow out of their hobbies of killing sexually active teenagers, and that the law couldn't help her. At the beginning of this final confrontation, he admits he had just gone to San Francisco in hopes of killing her. While that fact would not have been usable as a defense in court, we as an audience are supposed to realize that she -- being a victim who did nothing to deserve to be in the situation she's in -- reached a point where she had no other choice than to fight back for her own survival. We're supposed to want her to defeat her mortal enemy.
What is mind-boggling to me is that when Clint Eastwood or James Bond defeats the bad guy, we cheer, but when a battered wife fights back, some viewers want to send her to jail. That's very sad.
Finally, someone who gets it.
He keeps coming after her, after her child, and people are saying that it is cold-blooded murder when she finally goes after him. He showed many times that he was not going to stop at anything until she was either his or dead. If he would have left her alone after she went to Michigan, and then she went after him out of revenge, that would be completely unjustifiable because she got away.
But he kept coming after her.
When your life is put in jeopardy, when your child's life is put in jeopardy, you have every right to defend yourself and your child. In her case, she took the fight to his turf instead of waiting for him to come to her. She was smart. That was why she became a survivor. She survived. (If there are women on this board who are condemning her, wise up. Get your heads out of your asses and learn to take care of yourselves. No one is going to do it for you.)
To everyone who says she should go to jail: I really hope nothing bad happens to you or yours during your lifetime. It would be a shame to spoil the naivete that fogs the rose-colored glasses you wear.
The thing is, Slim knows very well that it isn't "self-defense" it the sense that HE started THAT fight.
But he beat her, he threatened her, he kept coming after her when she fled. He was going to kill her, there's no question about that. He even said so himself (when he told her that if he couldn't have her, he'd make sure nobody else could either). He kept coming after her and he WAS going to kill her.
So she made up a plan. She practiced self-defense and she planned the whole thing at his house out. Now, what she meant by "self-defense is not murder" is not that she was merely defending herself, but that she had made sure that's what it would LOOK like when the police got there.
I mean, she kept saying it. She wrote the letters and made sure his finger prints were on them, she said "I came here to talk about Gracie", and other things. She made it LOOK like she'd come there to talk, but that HE attacked HER and that SHE just defended herself.
Yes, she started THAT fight, but she made sure it was not going to look that way to the police. THAT's what she meant. "Self-defense is not murder". She meant that the police was never going to arrest her, because they'd think she'd simply been defending herself.
So, we've established that she DID start that fight, and she made sure that was NOT what it looked like. Does this mean she SHOULD go to jail?
I don't think so. Had she not done what she did, he would've eventually killed her, taken Gracie and maybe hurt her too. That was inevitable.
So she did it to protect Gracie, and herself. Like katka313 said: instead of waiting for him to come and have that inevitable fight on HIS terms, when HE was prepared, she came to him to have it when SHE was prepared.
One of them was going to die. She knew that. He was not going to stop until he'd killed her. So she prepared herself and she went to him.
And also, she actually DID kill him in self-defense. When the time came, she couldn't do it. Even though she KNEW he would go back to the way he was and come after her and try to kill her, she couldn't go through with it. She couldn't kill him.
Then, while she was on the phone with her back to him, unprepared, HE tried to kill HER. So the actual killing part, that really did turn out to happen in self-defense.
Bottom line: the "self-defense is not murder" thing was just "for show", so to speak. She just meant that was what it was going to look like (although it did turn out that way in the end).
And she did it to save her child, and herself, because she knew that if she didn't do it, he would come and kill her and probably hurt Gracie.
She's not a murdurer.
These days, a woman can even hire someone to kill her husband and get off using the "abused wife" defense. Of course the hitman will go up for life.
What gets me is, why didn't she just get a gun and shoot the scum? Please, no lame explanations like "that would have been too easy on him." He might have had a gun or a knife. Even the world's greatest martial artists tell you to flee from an armed assailant unless you have absolutely no choice.
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And if a man had killed some woman who was murdering men because the law couldn't make a case, would you have made the same comment? There were legal and even illegal but effective without killing means of stopping him. Criticizing her is not sexism. Vigilante justice by either gender can't be condoned. Eventually a woman will use a false "abused wife" defense to try to get away with murdering her husband for money and she will be exposed. What will you say then?
shareBut James Bond has a license to kill.
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'But James Bond has a license to kill.'
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James Bond is a fictional character who in paperbacks and movies has a license to kill.
In real life there is no such thing as 'a license to kill' in MI6.
Question for Pmiano
In Britain there is a current court case in which a woman had an argument with a man in a line waiting to pay at a supermarket. She claimed the man had jumped in front of her or something similar, and became so worked up that she phoned her boyfriend to come and sort him out. The thug of a boyfriend stormed onto the scene and with a massive punch floored the man standing next to the one who had argued with the woman. He died of his injuries a few hours later. The woman showed no concern at all that her thug of a boyfriend had assaulted the wrong man, she shouted at him to go after the right man!!!!!!!!!#
They have both been found guilty of manslaughter and are due to be sentenced in a few weeks time. This being in Britain no doubt they will both receive pathetic soft sentences.
Do you think that they both should receive the same sentence or should the man be given more time in prison????
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So do a lot of people, but "he needed killing" is only a valid defense in Texas. If a daughter had killed an abusive mother the same way, I doubt you'd be so understanding. My post has everthing to do with Slim's case. By the way, what if Mitch had had a gun?
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My personal opinion is that they should be given equal sentences. However, the way American law works, he would go to jail for first degree manslaughter (which is somewhat different from the British definition), and she would be convicted of incitement to aggravated assault or at most negligence homicide. He would serve much more time than her.
shareJust to update you the sentences were announced today.
The man was sentenced to four years in prison, the woman to eighteen months in prison.
For killing someone? The law is pathetic!!!!
But still, he got more time, and I'm sure feminists will demand her release. You're right, as criminals get more vicious, the law gets weaker.
shareDoes nobody care about Mitch's parents?
Two wrongs don't make a right.
If this movie had gone to its logical and realistic ending, Slim would have gone to prison. Likely would have been charged with first-degree murder, what with the premeditation and all, but extenuating circumstances and a deal would have probably lowered it to second-degree or manslaughter. Either way, she would spend some time behind bars (a small amount and paroled early for good behavior, depending on the state. If this were Iowa, she'd be screwed).
Self-defense is pretty cut and dry in a court of law. It can only be used if your life was in immediate danger, like that scene in the motel when Mitch found her and was attacking her and he threw Gracie down the hallway. If she had killed him then, self-defense and battered woman syndrome and she would have walked.
Self-defense does not cover specifically seeking out your target, cutting off his alarms, breaking and entering, all with the intention to kill. That's premeditated murder. Especially since there was enough time lapsed that allowed Slim to learn how to fight without Mitch attacking her within that time. It's not exactly a Francine Hughes situation, where the time between her husband beating and raping her and when she burned him alive in the bed wasn't enough for her to really get her wits about her.
Nobody is saying that it's necessarily wrong what Slim did, but just pointing out that in this case, it would be considered murder and she wouldn't be sailing off into the sunset in Seattle.
You are absolutely correct from a legal point of view. However, juries can be swayed. While "jury nullifiction" is not a legally recognized concept, it is unofficially practiced often. I am not saying you are wrong. You are indeed correct. However, in these days of the "Twinkie Defense," lawyers with no case at all have been able to manipulate juries. I'm not saying that it's right; I'm only saying it happens.
shareSome things are just unfair. Courts tend to be softer on parents who kill their disabled children more so than when children with normal health are killed. I've seen comments about it online, they get angry about a healthy child being murdered but when it's a disabled child they are understanding, even before they know any details at all.
shareThere you and I agree. Some parents kill a disabled child simply because they're tired of the expense and the trouble of caring for them. Some even have the nerve to try to collect the life insurance.
shareWhat she did was extreme but necessary. She made the world better and safer by ridding it of Mitch!
"A real man would rather bow down to a strong woman than dominate a weak one"
For what it's worth, I am sympathetic to parents who do that, but it's on the basis that I know it's easy to get paranoid sometimes and that in some cases people kill family members before killing themselves more or less out of love. They feel like they're "saving" them. What I have a problem with is the fact that some people are only understanding when it happens to be disabled children, but condemn parents who kill their healthy children. It comes across that they're only understanding because they know they wouldn't want a disabled child themselves.
shareSelf-defense does not cover specifically seeking out your target, cutting off his alarms, breaking and entering, all with the intention to kill. That's premeditated murder.
WE know that, but the question is: will the police be able to prove it? They are going to see letters addressed to him in his drawer (with his prints all over them), her injuries, an apartment that looks like a cyclone hit it, and his dead body. Since he isn't alive to tell his side of things, and Ginny would have probably been the star witness if the case HAD gone to court (since she knew everything from when Mitch threw the first punch), then Slim most likely still would have walked.
If you are reading this, you have just lost The Game. share
Ironically this movie was made due to the storyline from that of Julia Roberts film 'Sleeping With The Enemy' and it just dawned on me today that this movie not only stole a storyline from that movie but also this statement.
'Self Denfense is not Murder' ~ which was the promo for Julia's movie. Oddly I can't fault this movie for going the same root. Mainly cuz this one gave us a few new pieces to that type of situation (being caught in a rocky romance). First this movie added the whole child situation and second it added more towards self defense being beyond guns/knifes but that of your own body taken someone on.
He probably would have.
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i just noticed something. while reading through the threads the only ones who want to send SLIM to prison are men, while the other who are defending her divine animal right to protect her and her offspring are women.
what a sick world we live in with sick people.
now onto the subject:
did everyone forget MITCH HIT SLIM FIRST? it does not matter. he initiated the fight by laying a hand on SLIM. MITCH then continued to beat SLIM and his own daughter GRACIE. MITCH does not care. MITCH IS A SOCIOPATH. towards the end of the movie when SLIM enters his house, and is spying on him above the rafters, he is completely done with one woman then is on to the next. MITCH even explains to the other woman on the phone, how he has to go to San Francisco for a custody hearing and in his voice it sounds like this is a chore to him. MITCH DOES NOT CARE ABOUT ANYONE BUT HIMSELF. MITCH has no feelings, for anyone. MITCH only views others as objects, and possessions. "if i can't have you then no one can." typical sociopath behavior. it's not that he wants SLIM around for his own pleasure, it's because he views SLIM as his personal property. same with GRACIE and the other women. so SLIM had no other choice in the matter but to defend herself and GRACIE, because MITCH was unstoppable. even MITCH's mother knew how he was and said he had friends on the police force. perhaps she was trying to warn her, because she was also a victim of abuse under MITCH's father's hands. we even see this for ourselves when the FBI enter SLIM's ex's home, and threaten her ex.
the police could do nothing for SLIM. and statistically she would have ended up missing, then eventually found years later in a body of water. SLIM had no family and MITCH knew this, so she was an easy target. does anyone recall him and his friend had a scam going on this woman? and she was one of the few lucky ones. also stated so when the police did arrive towards the end of the film.
i have a sad feeling if this were a man being battered by a woman, everyone would be cheering this on.
what a bunch of neanderthals.
Dark Faerie Tales In Phallestein. Symbols And Signs To Know Us By.
I completely agree with you Wolf_Mother. If I had been Slim,, Mitch would not have gotten another hit after the first time he struck me. I'd hit him back faster and harder then get the hell out of there. And if he laid a hand on my child, that would be the last thing he EVER did. I would never, ever tolerate that kind of BS. And I believe Slim had ever right to kill him, self defense or murder, he was scum and didn't deserve to live anyway.
The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.
I don't want to sound degrading or like I'm putting people down but anybody who says Slim should go to jail or get the death penalty for what she did to Mitch must not know anybody who's been in a volatile relationship like that. It's very scary, especially for a parent with a child as young as Gracie.
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
*Applauds Selene* I agree with this statement 100% I know what a relationship like that is like, I was in an abusive relationship with my ex and her mother, both were very mentally insane....control really IS the key in an abusive relationship, and the abuser is typically someone very insecure about themselves. My thinking is it's great that Slim managed to get out alive, and honestly, I don't think what Slim did was wrong at all
shareIf there is imminent danger or you perceive that if you dont kill this person then you will end up dead...then it can be considered pre-emptive self-defence. I've actually heard this being a defence in some cases. A lot of abusive relationships do end up with the mother being murdered. If he didnt pursue her, she wouldnt have killed him, she would've just left. But he did pursue her and he did give her cause to think that he wanted to murder her so...i say its pre-emptive self defence and defence on the behalf of your child.
shareIt would be a lot easier to take Slim's side if she ever did anything to deal with the situation before it got to the showdown. For instance, after the beating she doesn't report the beating, won't go to an emergency room because it's more important her daughter get a good night sleep. So I'd say yeah - pre-emptive self defence IF Slim had followed other courses and failed.
My really big problem with this movie is we're never given options. How can Slim use the system to protect herself? The movie says she can't, but it never seriously explores that option.
Many abused women feel that way, a reason why so many cases go unreported. And he made threats saying he'd plant drugs in her car, etc. Things that to us seem unrealistic but to someone who feels threatened, seem like reasons to not go to the police. Until he pushed Gracie off him, he never hurt her. She legally wouldn't have been able to get him out of Gracie's life, particularly with the monetary resources he has. Let's face it, the legal system works best when you have money. If they're having a custody battle in court, Slim wouldn't have been able to represent herself at the level he could, he could easily outlast her in dragging things out for legal fees. At the very least he'd get visitation, possible even joint custody.
She made major mistakes not going to the police or hospital, but many abused women (or men) do this.
"Dwight, you ignorant slut!"
It scares me to see all of you defending him. Either you are abusive yourselves or very stupid. She had no other options. He threatened every single person she knew. She went to the police and lawyer and they told her there was nothing they could do. He even had the FBI threatening them! He would never have stopped. He was controlling and verbally abusing as well. He threatened her friends with guns. Said he would plant drugs to make them look guilty. Hunted her down wherever she went. Even did it all in front of their daughter!!!!!! That is just awful and not normal! He also never stopped cheating on her the entire time he still claimed that he loved her. You don't do those kinds of things to people you love. If you do then there is something wrong with YOU TOO! You can say that she wasn't defending herself but she was. And it is all his fault. If he just left her alone they wouldn't have had this entire issue! She would have just walked away. And don't say it is because of Gracie. He didn't even love her or he wouldn't have done all of those things in front of her. You can try and rattle off the law but laws are made by humans and that doesn't always make them right. Laws change all the time. What matters is right and wrong. Why is it that he can threaten her over and over yet she does it once and you all go up in arms!? She may have gone there to kill him but odds were still in his favour. He is still bigger and stronger than her. She was still taking a HUGE chance.
shareYou know I've see this movie at least 3 times but I don't remember this: did Slim go to the husband's house with the intention of killing him, then she changed her mind before he came after her again which is when he fell from the railing? Because obviously if she just gave him a good beating he would still come after her wouldn't he?
"Vulgarity is no substitute for wit".
She went there with the express intent to kill him.
But she gets second thoughts at one point, because she is not by nature a vicious person and doesn't want to *be like him*.
Mitch forces her to finish the job though, by attacking her yet again.
I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus.
Didn't he discover America?
Penfold, shush.
Thank you!
"Vulgarity is no substitute for wit".