Maybe they aren't happy. Maybe they are looking for a way to end their existing relationship but don't have the proper skills to end it without ridiculous and unnecessary drama. Maybe they are easily manipulated by these new people. Maybe they are closet freaks and these new people fill that need. Basically, we don't ever truly know why they do it...perhaps it actually would be good for all parties to end that primary relationship. I would think there would be better ways to handle ending that first relationship.
Yes, I know in at least the cases of the three women I refer to above, there are/were varying degrees of unhappiness.
I have long believed that monogamy isn't for everyone. But at the same time, you have to honor your promises to others. The pain you cause someone when you violate that level of trust can be devastating.
Agree with this point. I am having a hard time dealing with wrapping my head around the fact that these women I know, "good people" as I'd call them, would cheat. Perhaps they are justified, that their husbands aren't the "good guys" we think they married. Or maybe they aren't, but choose to do it anyway. Only they know for sure...but at the same time, it makes you question yourself, the value system of those around you, the environment and society we live in now, including internet influence. (That last part makes me sound like I am writing a thesis about it...but I bet somebody, somewhere has, is or will be writing about this very thing--it's inevitable today.
Now, some of the "cyber" relationships may not be threatening to their relationships. It could be that these women do not wish to pursue them any farther than some dialouge with another party or parties. I don't know if those are really problems. There's no way to know, really.
Yes, that is true. I have male friends who would probably cross the line if they could, so it's not hard to imagine how it probably starts with these other women. Fortunately for myself, pcq is aware of my male friends--even the one who openly flirts like crazy!
Of course, it would help if everyone was simply honest with each other about everything...even the stuff that hurts...from the beginning...most of these issues would probably be avoided.
I agree, it probably would help, and most of these issues would probably be avoided. It seems like people are more apt to let things fester until it comes to a boil, so to speak--by then the damage is often done.
Welcome to your everything.
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Miss_October
14 years ago
I am having a hard time dealing with wrapping my head around the fact that these women I know, "good people" as I'd call them, would cheat.
Ah, the old Madonna/whore fallacy raises its ugly head. Statistically, the "good girls" are the ones MORE likely to cheat than the "bad girls" rather than vice versa. You know why?
1) Most female cheating arises from a confusion between love and sex, which "bad girls" are less likely to be subject to.
2) "Good girls" often feel they "missed out" by waiting until marriage, and when their sex drives increase in their 30s and they're unhappy or bored with the "steady" husbands they married, they crave the excitement they missed in their teens and early 20s. "Bad girls" know better, and have been with enough bad men to appreciate a good husband.
3) "Good girls" are naive about male motives and can be seduced into wrongdoing against the same weak little wills which allowed them to be dominated by parents and society when younger; "bad girls" know all about men's tricks and have strong wills which cannot be so easily bent.
Nobody's ever done an official study on it, but considerable anecdotal evidence from sex researchers suggests that retired prostitutes make the most faithful wives of all, and virgin brides the least.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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javajuly
14 years ago
I don't mean to laugh, O, but none of these women were virgins when they got married, and two out of three of them were brides who were well into their 30s! Which I tend to agree, should make them old enough to know what they want. I will admit I attended a church dinner last week, but most of my friends are not as 'squeaky clean' as they might seem. I will also admit that when I was a teenager I thought I might save myself for marriage, but that ship sailed some time ago, as it were.
I guess what I meant by 'good people' is the kind of woman who's willing to fight for her marriage and stay committed to one man, honor her marriage vows and core values. I really don't think most people marry with the intent of divorcing 7, 10 or 15 years down the line, but sometimes people (both men and women) change and other times boredom sets in, or hard times challenge relationships--any number of things could be factors. I have no doubt retired prostitutes are good people as well, my use of the word 'good' in this case doesn't mean to exclude them!
Glad you brought up the women's sex drive increase thing, because that is one area where I think biology really didn't do us any favors. I know so many women who say their men are apt to fall asleep in front of the TV or play on the computer all evening; sex seems to be not very high on their list of priorities.
And no wonder, if they peaked around age 18-20! Meanwhile, women really don't wish to be neglected in this area at the peak of these feelings, and might go looking elsewhere if they are.
when their sex drives increase in their 30s and they're unhappy or bored with the "steady" husbands they married, they crave the excitement they missed in their teens and early 20s. "Bad girls" know better, and have been with enough bad men to appreciate a good husband.
This is something I think you really hit on, there. That seems to be the case exactly in at least some of the situations I am aware of.
Welcome to your everything.
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Miss_October
14 years ago
I know so many women who say their men are apt to fall asleep in front of the TV or play on the computer all evening; sex seems to be not very high on their list of priorities.
Not to be mean, but what isn't "high on their list of priorities" is boring, repetitive sex with their dumpy, frowsy wives who sit around in sweatsuits with short hair and only want sex when they're interested in the way they want it, with everything else greeted with "That's disgusting!" or "You're a pervert!" or "I'm not gonna do that!"
Those same men are plenty interested in young-looking, well-kept escorts who have maintained their figures, dress in a feminine manner and will give them the kind of sex they want when they want it.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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IsoldeJaneHolland
14 years ago
Oh, Miss October, your post reminds me of when I was 14 and my parents threw a party and decreed that I was old enough to attend. There was this one verbose blowhard, holding court, waving his stupid cigarette around, with those emphatic gestures that drive me up the wall. I approached just in time to hear this pearl of wisdom fall from his lips,"Well you know, no man would cheat if women didn't let themselves go." To which the little history buff from hell observed,"That must be why President Kennedy had affairs, - Jackie was such a homely frump."
(Princess Diana would've been a more current example, but a lot of people think she was an annoying, immature flake, and much less sympathetic than Jackie.)
Speaking of men's sex drives I've often wondered what Obama's deal is. He didn't meet Michelle until he was like 28, and yet no college girlfriends have surfaced, so either he intuitively picked the most discreet girls in the world or there's simply not much to talk about.
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javajuly
14 years ago
Speaking of men's sex drives I've often wondered what Obama's deal is. He didn't meet Michelle until he was like 28, and yet no college girlfriends have surfaced, so either he intuitively picked the most discreet girls in the world or there's simply not much to talk about.
Hmm, that is interesting. Maybe he was a late bloomer (yes, it happens to men also--don't kid yourself) or maybe there really isn't much to tell.
The only issue I can take with O's bit is the short hair--that
can be frumpy but doesn't have to be. I think far worse is that woman who's hanging on to her hair, same tired hairstyle she's had since high school, it's long, stringy and usually some mousy color. I'm not even a stylist yet I am dying to send these women when I see them to get a great (flattering) cut and color, she'd look and feel SO much better about herself.
I do agree many average women run around in sweatpants and otherwise let themselves go somewhat after marriage and kids. Heck, if I go to my local Walmart in t-shirt and jeans I tend to feel overdressed! People not only wear sweats there, but stained, ill-flattering clothes and some of the most dreadful color combinations too. Not to mention lack of makeup and poorly styled hair, regardless of length.
O, you had mentioned swapping your jeans for dresses to run errands recently and I wanted to add that if you did that around here, you'd probably be elevated to 'goddess status'!
Welcome to your everything.
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Miss_October
14 years ago
The only issue I can take with O's bit is the short hair--that can be frumpy but doesn't have to be.
That's because you're a woman. The vast majority of men prefer long hair, so if one is trying to please a man long is almost always better than short.
O, you had mentioned swapping your jeans for dresses to run errands recently and I wanted to add that if you did that around here, you'd probably be elevated to 'goddess status'!
As I should be.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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kaiju0
14 years ago
On the hair thing...I don't know that I have a preference. I think it depends on the woman's head, honestly.
My wife has always had very short hair, most of the women I had dated had around shoulder length hair, and only one had very long hair (almost to her waist). I did have one girl I was dating cut her shoulder length hair off to a very short style and that was fantastic. It completely changed her look for the better (and it made me understand why wigs can be so popular).
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Miss_October
14 years ago
You're unusual though, Kaiju. You have to admit most guys do think longer hair is sexier.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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indymovies
14 years ago
You're unusual though, Kaiju. You have to admit most guys do think longer hair is sexier.
As a woman I think longer hair is sexier - but - unfortunately - not on me.
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Miss_October
14 years ago
You may not be the best judge; what does your man think about it?
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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kaiju0
14 years ago
I do agree that it seems most guys do find longer hair sexier in general. But I wonder if that has more to do with the fact we perceive longer hair to be more feminine. I do suspect it is a cultural preference.
But, at the same time I do have to admit that I'm probably an abberation, in that I have always liked butch women.
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Miss_October
14 years ago
It's not a cultural preference, actually; it's the "peacock's tail" syndrome. The body only diverts resources to cosmetic features like hair or display feathers when it is healthy and has plenty of resources to spare, so higher animals (including humans) instinctively view such features as signs of good health. Short hair could be hiding poor health; long, lustrous hair points to several years of continued good health.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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kaiju0
14 years ago
I stand corrected. I had forgotten that fact. I was thinking along the lines of how we create certain cultural standards of beauty (elongated necks, the lip tattoos of the Ainu women, etc.) but in this case those don't really apply.
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Miss_October
14 years ago
Right. A good example of a cultural standard is tanning; in the past, upper-class women did not have to work in the sun so fair skin was beautiful and tanned skin ugly. But once industrialization came and the poorest people worked in factories while wealthier people could travel to resorts, tanning became the sign of affluence.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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javajuly
14 years ago
I wonder if that's a South thing...I have seen some of the best heads of hair ever on women from Texas (or nearby states)--which always amazed me, because Texas is so freakin' hot much of the year! But many women down there wear their long, thick hair as an accessory. I should post a picture of actress Jamie Luner, she has the ultimate mane of hair--envious by me, for sure.
I do think a lot of guys fantasize about long hair, but I've wondered largely if that is due to most supermodels, Playboy Playmates and porn always featuring them. How many women in the 'real world' have the time and resources to do their hair up fancy every day? Granted, there are always some--even here in Ohio I see women with great heads of hair from time to time--but overall, shorter to medium-length seems to prevail for women 30+. Unless you were born with a head of fantastic hair, it often gets scraggly-looking after a certain age. (Hence why so many makeover shows and magazine articles include haircuts--not always short haircuts, but definitely modernized versions of long, medium-length and short hair.)
By the way, O, you look great with long hair, I am NOT referring in any way to the long hair you've sported since I've known you, when I refer to women who should change looks. Have you always worn it long?
Oh, and Kaiju you are in good company--pcq likes women with short hair (or so he says) It probably depends on the woman, because I am sure there are women he likes it long on as well. He is a big fan of the Audrey Tautou Amelie haircut.
Which works well for me, because I like that one too. I've never had my hair longer than a little below shoulder-length, that IS long for me! And I don't generally go shorter than chin length because I need something to frame my face.
I am a big fan of the 1950s-inspired looks because as you'll note, women never wore their hair longer than shoulder-length then, and it epitomized glamour and style. NO man, regardless of how much he loves long hair, is going to deny that Marilyn Monroe was sexy! Shorter hair looked wonderful on Audrey Hepburn as well.
Welcome to your everything.
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Miss_October
14 years ago
I wonder if that's a South thing...I have seen some of the best heads of hair ever on women from Texas (or nearby states)--which always amazed me, because Texas is so freakin' hot much of the year! But many women down there wear their long, thick hair as an accessory.
That's because Southern women have always understood the importance of appealing to men; it's part of our irresistible charm.
I do think a lot of guys fantasize about long hair, but I've wondered largely if that is due to most supermodels, Playboy Playmates and porn always featuring them.
Nope, vice-versa.
How many women in the 'real world' have the time and resources to do their hair up fancy every day?
But that's just the point; all long hair needs to look fantastic is to be clean and brushed. I don't "do" anything with my hair, ever. Admittedly I was blessed with unusually beautiful hair, but I paid for it with this awful nose of mine.
Unless you were born with a head of fantastic hair, it often gets scraggly-looking after a certain age.
Only if you don't take proper care of it!
By the way, O, you look great with long hair...Have you always worn it long?
Ever since I was able to demand it be kept that way over my mum's objections. She always wanted me to cut it off because it was (and still is) difficult to manage. The last time I had it cut short was after that dreadful car accident in April of 1995, where they shaved part of my scalp to stitch up my head. I cried when I saw what they had done to me, and I wore hats or head-scarves all summer to hide the big bald patch. By September the hair in that patch was boy-length, so since the rest of my hair looked like crap by then anyway I had a friend of mine cut it all off to boy-length so it would at least be uniform. I cried for days after that, and swore I would never cut it again. By spring it was reasonably long again, and I've never cut it since.
I am a big fan of the 1950s-inspired looks because as you'll note, women never wore their hair longer than shoulder-length then, and it epitomized glamour and style. NO man, regardless of how much he loves long hair, is going to deny that Marilyn Monroe was sexy!
Shoulder-length hair isn't short! When I say short I mean that awful nun-length hair so many women like now.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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javajuly
14 years ago
Shoulder-length hair isn't short!
Good to know! Because my hair is finally shoulder-length again after having it cut shorter back in April. My typical pattern is to get it cut off periodically in some type of bob, then let it grow for awhile. I can't remember the last time I went more than four months without a haircut, and I am itching for one again, but tired of having my hair the same way (variations of layered bobs) that I've just let it grow to see if it will look like anything else. However, I do think shorter hair suits me, and will surely go back to it at some point. When my hair is longer like now, the downside is I find it everywhere!
When I say short I mean that awful nun-length hair so many women like now.
@ "awful nun-length hair" - I didn't realize that was so popular!
Do you get regular trims even though you don't have it cut? I love the way my hair is after having the ends cut off--I really think I'll be getting it trimmed fairly soon, even if I keep it longer.
Welcome to your everything.
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Miss_October
14 years ago
When my hair is longer like now, the downside is I find it everywhere!
Oh, pooh; that's not a downside, it's just marking territory. My long, curly hair strands seem to find each other, and they also trap lint, dust and other such things to form what Paladin calls "tumble Os" in the same places other people get dust bunnies.
Do you get regular trims even though you don't have it cut?
No, I haven't trimmed it in years. Even when I did I never let them cut enough off to notice, so I really can't justify it. It doesn't make my hair look any better or help to keep it healthy, and I've never noticed that it helps it to grow despite the myth. I just wash it thoroughly every other day, condition it, comb it out while it's wet and fluff it with my fingers for an hour or so (while watching a movie or reading or whatever) while it's drying, then comb it. And everyone says how beautiful it is, so I must be doing something right.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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Miss_October
14 years ago
Well you know, no man would cheat if women didn't let themselves go.
What an asinine statement! Though certainly SOME men cheat or lose interest because their wives stop trying, most do it because of the male need for variety.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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kaiju0
14 years ago
That's because people cannot accept that the garbage they've been taught is untrue, even in the face of their own experience and the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
I just wish people would stop with the lying. Stop lying to yourselves, stop lying to your children, stop lying to each other.
All scientific evidence points to humans being far more promiscuous sexually than the way we've been raised to believe.
It's not bad.
Nature doesn't do "good" or "bad".
Nature just does.
We're natural. We're animals. When you think about us as animals...things make so much more sense.
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Miss_October
14 years ago
I think it'll be a long time before our culture grows up enough to do that, Kaiju, especially in this country. In the past couple of decades the US has been engaged in a headlong rush to criminalize or demonize MORE natural behaviors rather than to decriminalize the ones which are unjustly criminalized already.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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javajuly
14 years ago
We're animals. When you think about us as animals...things make so much more sense.
Except that we are
not animals. There are qualities which make us humans and differentiate us from the animals. We have abilities, logic/reasoning and far more complex emotions. Animals don't marry, so they don't have to worry about vows or issues that go along with this--as humans we choose to do it, as it's not required (not in America, at least.) We are higher than animals in the ecological chain of events too (though groups like PETA might not wish to believe it.) I stand up for animals (like the basset rescue organization my sister and I are involved with) because they need an advocate--but I also recognize their place and purpose in the grand scheme (which is why I still eat meat like chicken and don't feel overly guilty about it.)
I basically agree with Nature not doing "good" or "bad" though hurricane victims might disagree. However, what you are referring to, nature of men and women as not being inherently good or bad, I agree with--it is what it is.
Welcome to your everything.
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kaiju0
14 years ago
We're the smartest monkeys...but we're still just monkeys.
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javajuly
14 years ago
Kaiju~just for you:
Welcome to your everything.
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IsoldeJaneHolland
14 years ago
This is the shortest I've ever had it cut; ironically that was just around the time I met Lan.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a118/IJH/Missy/balloons.jpg
And this is the longest. It had just started snowing, so those waves wouldn't have lasted long!!
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a118/IJH/Missy/firstsnow.jpg
Regarding my left cheek in the first one . . .the yellow balloon next to my head caused a weird kind of reflection on my face, - I didn't have some sort of exotic rash.
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javajuly
14 years ago
Very cute in both pics, Missy. You look a bit like a younger version of Henry Valentine's wife in your first one--I am not sure I realized that until now, but she is stunning in some of the pics he took of her back in the 70s (and still looks good today in her 50s.) I don't think I've ever seen a bad pic of you, either, lamb. You're rocking both the jeans and the long hair in your second pic, there! I think you'd have to go back to my college or post-college pics to find both my best jean shots and my longest hair.
Welcome to your everything.
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pcqgod
14 years ago
Nice cheeks!
Whachew gonna do Momma, when the roast beef's gone?
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IsoldeJaneHolland
14 years ago
Thank you for letting us know about java's computer, pcq; I shan't look for her tonight, then.
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javajuly
14 years ago
Look for me Saturday or *POOF* I might be gone again!
Welcome to your everything.
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