MovieChat Forums > Gangs of New York (2002) Discussion > What is the truth about "Priest" Vallon ...

What is the truth about "Priest" Vallon being the "father" of Amsterdam Vallon?


According to the movie, "Priest" Vallon is the "father" of Amsterdam Vallon. But that doesn't make sense since Roman Catholic priests aren't allowed to marry or have sex. There are 5 possibilities for the truth about "Priest" Vallon:

1. He isn't really a priest and just pretends to be one.

2. He was a genuine priest at one time and then gave up on the clergy to have a family.

3. He really is a priest and Amsterdam isn't his real son but just adopted.

4. He really is a priest but he violated the rules and had an affair with a woman that resulted in Amsterdam.

5. Prior to becoming a priest he had an affair with a woman that resulted in Amsterdam.

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He could also have been a real Priest who had a secret mistress on the side. This was quite common in the past. Or maybe he got defrocked for offensive behavior, such as crime and womanizing.

I have a feeling, though, that it was just a nickname.

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Your first two suggested explanations are pretty much the same thing as #2 on my list. Your third suggested explanation is pretty much the same thing as #1 on my list. However, "priest" was clearly more than just a nickname for "Priest" Vallon. He wore a priest's collar and carried around a cross with him. If he wasn't really a priest then it was at the very least an identity that he fully embraced.

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I took your number 2 as an honest, public renunciation of the priesthood. Whereas my versions are more unsavory and illicit and in keeping with the squalid setting.

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I see the difference that you're talking about and have added your suggested possibility as #4 on my list.

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Desmond Tutu has a wife and 4 children.

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As I explained in my first post, Roman Catholic priests aren't allowed to marry or have sex. Desmond Tutu is an Anglican priest.

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The truth is that Liam Neesson is an actor. Think of it what you must.

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That doesn't make any sense. I'm not talking about Liam Neeson. I'm talking about "Priest" Vallon.

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Have you seen the movie? That's all the information there is. The rest is insignificant speculation.

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Yes, I have seen the movie. And because this issue is a total mystery in the movie I am engaging in the speculation that I am here.

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Well, mister Dummy: Do catholic priests traditionally engage in murder?

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No, Catholic priests don't normally engage in murder. But "Priest" Vallon's activities are more easily explained by the harsh realities of 19th Century New York City. "Priest" Vallon's actual status as a priest and his exact relationship with Amsterdam is much more of an unexplained mystery and that is why I'm speculating about it here.

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Geez, one wonders why his moniker "Priest" is always in quotes...

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The 'Priest' part of "Priest" Vallon is put in quotes to show the doubtfulness of his status as a priest. As a gang leader and a father he's clearly not a normal Catholic priest if he really is one. Either he was a real priest who gave up on the rules of priesthood or he's just a gang leader who simply refers to himself as a priest.

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As this argument is for argument's sake and reply bait only, I will respond further.
"Priest" Vallon was not a priest. Vallon was a fictional character produced by Scorses.

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I have no idea what you're trying to prove by pointing out that "Priest" Vallon is a fictional character. I'm talking about the truth about him within the fictional reality of the movie. It's like speculating over the motivations of Hamlet, which people have been doing for hundreds of years.

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What truth? There is nothing more but what you see in the movie. Vague notions that he is a priest are in your head only.

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I fully realize that the movie itself doesn't explain the full truth about Priest Vallon's status as a priest. I fully realize the movie offers no definitive truth on the issue. That's why I'm speculating about it. That's why I'm listing all the possibilities that could explain it. People do this with every movie with unexplained mysteries. People do the same thing with the briefcase in Pulp Fiction.

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That was a lightbulb. The rest is speculation.

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Yes, everything I've said here about Priest Vallon is just speculation. I've already fully acknowledged that. What is your point?

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Point? This is threadfiller, what else?

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so you're just tooling with me

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Not at all. Just chatting on movie chat.

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Catholic Priests aren’t supposed to molest children either but plenty of them do. Maybe he just said to hell with it, maintained his clergy and had a kid anyway. Is that really so hard to believe?

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It's not really so hard to believe. Your theory matches up with #4 on my list of possible explanations.

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Didn’t see that one, touché.

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You didn't see #4 on my list because I added it in response to your post.

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Ah, thanks.

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Is it possible he sired a child before he became a priest?

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That's certainly a possibility. I've added it to my list.

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I think it's something akin to #1 because he's not the person who delivers Holy Communion at the start of the film. The priest who delivers Holy Communion at the beginning is the same one we see later when St. Patrick's Cathedral is being built. I think "Priest" was a nickname Vallon acquired because he was a devout Catholic and dressed in black. In a similar sense, Monk wasn't actually a monk, but that was his nickname.

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I got the impression that, like most relationships on social media, "it's complicated."

I think it's a combination, mostly of numbers 1 and 4.

My feeling is that he started out as a priest or was in-training to be a priest. He breaks those vows and has Amsterdam. This is the point where he leaves for America, disgraced by his actions.

Once in America, he does what needs to be done to survive, breaking with Christanity's principles more and more until he is the violent man we meet in Gangs of New York. While living in the Five Points, he is called "Priest" by those who know of his past. Perhaps the Monk started it? After a while, Vallon's social status brings him the leadership of the Dead Rabbits (or he founds the group) and he is called "Priest" now as much out of affection and recognition of his status of leadership as because of his past.

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PS
I did a bit of digging just now, because this is one of my favourite films and you got my curiosity up.

I ran a search, asking the internet if Priest Vallon was based on a real person. As near as I can tell: no. Many characters in Gangs are real or composites, but Vallon seems more like he embodies attitude and provides needed character for Amsterdam and Bill.

I happen to have a thick "Making of Gangs of New York" book (including the shooting script!) with interviews, etc. I pulled it from my shelves and thumbed over the interviews with the screenwriters and with Liam Neeson. Neeson just says his character is an Irish immigrant - doesn't get too in-depth after that. The screenwriters and researcher said little about Vallon himself, outside of one writer. Jay Cocks says, "The first inkling I had of Amsterdam's character was his father's voice. I scribbled this thing down on a piece of paper: 'The blood always stays on the blade.' That line was the first thing that was ever written for Gangs of New York."

The shooting script opens with this line: "VALLON, a man in black, is shaving while his son, AMSTERDAM, watches in the shadows." Later, it says, "He fastens a white priest's collar around his throat."

Notable, also, is that, in the opening flurry of scenes that mark the introduction and melee of the film, only Bill the Butcher calls Vallon "Priest," although very few people (Amsterdam, Bill, and Monk) speak with him at all.

Later, after Bill stabs Vallon, the script says, "The Natives and Rabbits turn and look at the tableau of Bill holding the bloody priest." This is the only time the shooting script's stage directions refer to Vallon as "priest," but that's not really definitively saying he is one.

This site says he immigrated first and then fathered Amsterdam, but I don't know what its source is:
https://historica.fandom.com/wiki/Priest_Vallon

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