MovieChat Forums > Boys Don't Cry (2000) Discussion > What Teena did was wrong

What Teena did was wrong

posted 14 years ago by OK_Firecracker
103 replies | jump to latest

Teena lying to Lana about her physical sex is so untruthful. I am in no way against transgenders but there has to be a grain of truth. It's probably so hard to go through life feeling like you're in the wrong body and who knows why it happens (chemical, hormonal). I also understand it is a hard thing to tell someone and it's his/her business, but once physical contact starts there needs to be an explanation. It's hurtful and deceiving to the other person. I really hate the character Teena/Brandon, I can't feel sympathy for her/him, nobody deserves to die like that though.

---We May Be Through With The Past, But The Past Isn't Through With Us---

[–] meffmurch 14 years ago

If you are "in no way against transgenders," you can stop being ignorant and call HIM the right pronouns and name now. I'm sure that, if you know anything about this case, you can infer that Brandon Teena preferred male pronouns and being called Brandon. By insisting on referring to him constantly as "him/her" and "Teena/Brandon," you're disrespecting the wishes of someone who is no longer alive to defend his own identity. And that to me is far worse than lying about your physical sex to someone.

[–] psxff7 14 years ago

Sorry but vagina = girl.

[–] sophrickco 13 years ago

Anatomically yeah. But that isn't the point. Internally, that wasn't his true identity. Do you not take a person's own legitimate feelings into account?

A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere.

[–] Youkillelagh 13 years ago

lolno
vagina = female
"girl" is a personal identity that people choose for themselves.

[–] jjgraywolf 13 years ago

Actually NO vagina does not= girl.

[–] KristenStewartForever 8 years ago

It doesn't matter. He was a male. Period.

I love you, Kristen Stewart. :) You are so beautiful and talented. I would love to perform with you.

[–] cdymanning 13 years ago

So if I’m a human but I want to be a lizard, deep down I feel like a lizard, can I be a lizard?

I know, I know, I sound like I’m being a jack**s but I really would like to know.

[–] meffmurch 13 years ago

[–] cdymanning 13 years ago

From my own experiences of talking with people about this subject, anyone who uses that as a point of argument doesn't only sound like a jackass, they usually are one. Or they're genuinely clueless on the subject, and actually think the whole "what if I feel like a tiger inside?" thing is a good point. It's not.

From my own experiences of talking with people like you, is that you’re a hypocrite, ignorant and close minded. The whole “what if I feel like a tiger inside?" is a good point. I like how it’s ok for women wanting to be a man, man wanting to be women but somehow your open mind can’t understand the thought that they're people out there that want to be a Lizard, Tiger, cat, Baby or whatever taboo thing they want. Who are you to tell anyone what’s normal?

Human gender identity is not determined by a person's "parts." While most people feel like their internal gender matches what their body dictates, your true gender identity comes from the way your brain is hard-wired. Intersexed people who are born with ambiguous genitalia don't have definite sex organs that tell them what they're "supposed" to be - so how do they find out? Because, even without completely male or completely female genitals, they still know what their internal gender is. The same goes for transgender people - their bodies might have a definite biological and physical sex, but emotionally and mentally, they're something else. And who's to say that your chromosomes and body parts are more important determining factor than your own brain?

Reread and you may understand your own hypocrisy, if the brain wants you to be something, became it.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that gender is not always one thing or the other. For many people, more than you probably think, it's very fluid, and experiencing gender variance is not as drastic and ridiculous as "feeling like a lizard" deep-down inside. And if there *are* people out there who genuinely feel like lizards (I'm betting there aren't, which further makes the argument stupid), it's not even comparable to GID anyway - there's a difference between feeling like a different gender and feeling like an entirely different species.

How in the world would you know how it feels to want to be in another species body? (That’s your close mind again) People that spend their life earnings to go through painful transformation, get detach from their family and constantly get criticized and call crazy (sound familiar?) must have some deep rooted feeling for that lifestyle. What’s the difference? You seem to accept what you want to as normal and criticize /deny what you don’t, which is hypocritical

If you’re betting there aren’t people out there that feel like animal you’re
the close minded jack*ss.

http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/odds_and_oddities/new_zealand_international_tattoo.htm
http://popwatch.ew.com/2011/05/03/taboo-man-lives-as-baby/
http://youtu.be/dE9FRxoC7zc
http://youtu.be/n3mi27T4ZII

Finally you don’t know me, for all you know I’m a dude with tiger stripe tattoos all over my body, cut ears and mutilated face to make me look like a tiger. Its kind of hard for someone to be open minded & compassionate for your movement when you being ignorant and closed minded about their.
You can’t say its ok for one person to feel like something when it suits you and not for another when it doesn’t.
What’s taboo to you is perfectly normal to someone else.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] cdymanning 13 years ago

Ok, your last post has proven my point,that you’re an idiot or maybe the world is full of idiots and you’re the only genius. Either way I don’t care, live under your rock and keep it moving. Why would I be angry? You prove
nothing. You replied with aggressive typing so I simply did the same.

"I must be missing out on so much" You're missing the whole world not just me.

Forever Lazard man

Z----------------<

[–] thegreatgazoo-1 11 years ago

Ok, try this on for size

How would teena even know what feeling like a man felt like?

how?

what exactly, feeling wise, determines someone is a man?

answer me that?

betcha this ends the argument

[–] ccr1633 11 years ago

Yup, that about ends the argument. That tends to happen when you respond to someone almost two years later.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] birdeyes304 11 years ago

A very informative reply. You know tons more than the majority. It is truly frustrating and hard to inform people who know nothing about this subject and then they get very defensive about it. After you described yourself I know you from several documentaries.You have gone through quite a transformation over the years and I hope you are pleased with your work. You look amazing!

[–] SapphEyeR 9 years ago

Finally you don’t know me, for all you know I’m a dude with tiger stripe tattoos all over my body, cut ears and mutilated face to make me look like a tiger.

I did see a case of this on a TV documentary once. A guy maybe in his 30's who wanted to become a lion and I guess felt he was one, deep down. He had plastic surgery to make his facial features leonine and had his teeth filed to turn them into pointy cat teeth.

This was not a hit with the women. Not sure why they were present, but they were there and looked deeply disturbed.

Do you think this guy actually was a lion or just eccentric or a full-blown nutcase?

I require a scientific basis for everything. You're not something just because you want to be. For most transgenders it sounds like there is a scientific basis. Their brains don't match their external gender; there are male/female differences in the brain.

This actually makes transgenders a kind of hermaphrodite.

At any rate, anyone you're going to become intimate with deserves your full gender disclosure. They have rights, too. Call them shallow and bigoted, but most people care about the type of genitals on the person they intend to sleep with.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] maridepp 9 years ago

meffmurch: Your explanation was very well written!

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] sophrickco 12 years ago

Nice false equivalency.

A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] actionmanrandell 13 years ago

accept for the fact that tenna was a girl and no matter what teena would always be a girl. just because some gets a se change doesnt mean they stop being the sex they were born.

[–] OK_Firecracker 13 years ago

Forgive my ignorance. My point was that his deception made him an unlikeable character. This is always a tough topic, all I am saying is that a transgender individual "post-op or pre-op" should take the responsibility of letting a person (that they want to be intimate with) know what they were physically born as. It's not the transgender issue that bother me, it's the DECEPTION!

---We May Be Through With The Past, But The Past Isn't Through With Us---

[–] MydnightRose 13 years ago

I do not like the deceit factor in Brandon's relationships; I personally would have a problem with someone I cared about telling me such a huge lie. At the same time I try to see it from Brandon's pov; she's not doing it to be cruel but because this is how she wants to be seen. I can't imagine it would be easy to introduce yourself as a anatomically a girl but psychologically a man followed by a handshake. Then people would see you as just that, a female-->male, when it seems she wanted to be seen and live as fully a man

I'm not reading your manifesto, keep your damn posts short!

[–] kanimaki 12 years ago

This. Those ignorant people here are the f-ed up ones.

[–] hodie 12 years ago

She was a woman who had not even been anywhere near gender reassignment. She ought to have known damn well that Lana thought she had a penis. She let Lana believe what Lana wanted to believe. Teena was dishonest.

I don't care WHAT Teena preferred. An acquaintance of mine was a man who went through years of procedures and NOW she is a woman.

Teena didn't do anything to become a man, and lying doesn't make it so. We can't make up our genders. They are what they are.

"Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?"

[–] tmarks106 12 years ago

I know this post was two years ago but what you said was incorrect. Sorry but um the proper pronoun to address someone would be realted to his/her antanomical sex...genetalia. Since Teena never had a sex change operation addressing her as "she" is indeed appropriate.

[–] krakkety 10 years ago

Teena is a she. A female. No reason to make it complicated.

[–] Royalcourtier 10 years ago

"Brandon" was a woman. The correct pronoun is "she". She was a woman with a mental disorder.

[–] jrcanary-1 9 years ago

"Teena/Brandon," you're disrespecting the wishes of someone who is no longer alive to defend his own identity. And that to me is far worse than lying about your physical sex to someone."

..and this is exactly why SJWs need their heads examined. btw, 18 TEENA also dated a 13 year old girl, while SHE was pretending to be a teenage boy. Teena was scum.

[–] gator1110 14 years ago

Yeah it was just a very dangerous game she was playing; especially in an ignorant town she was in. The people in the town seemed very close minded and ignorant. How demonic and hypocritical was it for John and Tom to tell Teena that her lifestyle was disgusting but they didn't have a problem raping her? Just her claiming she was a man knowing she was a woman was deceptive and dangerous in the town she lived in (and everywhere in general). To me I was surprised Lana wasn't more upset. If she just came out and said she was gay that's one thing, but going out your way to be deceptive is messed up. That goes for anyone. If you happen to be dating a person and months later you find out their of the opposite sex when they claimed to be something else; you'd be upset. I think it was Brian who warned her that something was going to happen to her because of her being deceptive and hanging with the crowd she hung around.

[–] sophrickco 13 years ago

Just because you grow up in the backwoods doesn't mean you're going to turn out the same way... and she was just a warmer, more accepting person to begin with than the rest of her *beep* up family.

A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere.

[–] actionmanrandell 13 years ago

Tisdel sued the producers of the film for unauthorized use of her name and likeness before the film's release. She claimed the film depicted her as "lazy, white trash, and a skanky snake". Tisdel also claimed that the film falsely portrayed that she continued the relationship with Teena after she discovered Teena was not anatomically male. She eventually settled her lawsuit against the movie's distributor for an undisclosed sum

[–] HippieDrillSealOfApproval 13 years ago

Yeah it was just a very dangerous game she was playing; especially in an ignorant town she was in.

You seem to have missed the point. The point is that she was deceitful and that's wrong, regardless of how "ignorant" the town was.

Conform or be cast out

[–] silverbluerain 14 years ago

But it seems you're ignoring the idea that Brandon did not move to a new town with the specific intent to deceive all others and play a game of "will they believe I'm a man?" To me it appeared that he escaped a previous situation with the hopes of something new and wonderful, and as he discovered what he initially believed to be a great new group of friends (listen to him on the phone with his cousin about "it is so great here!"), it's not as though the opportunity arose in which he thought "now is the time to announce that I was born a female." Things just happened and he rolled with them, including falling for Lana. Yes, anyone could be (rightfully) upset at finding a gender discrepancy in his/her mate, but it didn't appear to me that Brandon set out to confuse people; in his mind, he was a man and the only thing preventing him from being completely biologically so was the lack of money to receive an operation at that time. It's not as though a transgendered person necessarily goes through life proud of the thought "I have fooled so many people"; Brandon thought of himself as a man, found himself to be initially accepted by his peers as a man, and then had to deal with the aftermath of being found to be otherwise. Yes, it's wrong to lie to people, especially if one becomes intimately involved, and who knows how much longer Brandon would have waited before telling Lana the truth had he not been discovered in the womens' wing at the local jail, but again, I didn't see Brandon setting out in life on a mission to lie, cheat, and deceive "just because".

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] jo_clegg_13 14 years ago

Gator1110, did you perhaps fall asleep and not watch the movie? Brandon Teena was not a woman, he was a transgender man. It is extremely offensive (and just plain wrong) to refer to him as She.
Given his unstable background and apparent lack of funds, it's hardly surprising that he was unable to get far with the medical transition process, but it's hardly his fault that he still had a female body. Even if he had been able to afford hormone therapy and SRS, he would have been required to live full-time as male first anyway. Many transsexuals aren't able to get surgery for many years, if they ever do, and they still have to live day to day in the meantime.

And for the record? There are at least twelve possible combinations of sex chromosomes that have occurred in humans, most of them can technically lead to babies that appear male, female or neither at birth, and some babies don't develop physically the way that they were expected to. The idea that chromosomes or anatomy can make someone a woman or a man simply makes no sense at all.

[–] gator1110 14 years ago

Actually I did watch the movie and read the story. Teena was a trans man or a transsexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Teena)
It even says here that "Brandon passed easily as a man in Humboldt, but was discovered to be biologically and legally female by local police who arrested him on a misdemeanor check forgery charge two weeks prior to his slaying." (http://data.club.cc.cmu.edu/~julie/text/teenarage.html)
Transsexual -A person having a strong desire to assume the physical characteristics and gender role of the opposite sex.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transsexual?fromAsk=true&o=100074)

Teena called herself Brandon and felt she was a man and identified as a man. That's her prerogative, but she was a woman. Why would Teena need to put a sock in her underwear (to attempt to have a bulge like a man) and tie her breast down (to look like she was flat chested like a man). If she was really a man she would not need to do this. The movie is obviously based on a true story. John and Tom dropped her pants there was a vagina there, not a penis. And she also in the movie was hiding that she had a period. I know no men who have periods. What Teena wanted to do is fine that's her right. But the fact is she was a woman, posing as a man. It's obvious she wanted to be a man, and that's cool.

The sex chromosome information is interesting, but that fact is Teena was a woman.This does not apply to her. I could say I'm the King of England, but it's not true.

Here's another article on her and the awful murder(http://www.hhsdrama.com/BioTeenaBrandon.swf). It states she lied quite often to people and would call herself a hermaphrodite. They said everyone knew this so she moved to start her life as a man.

Teena had a gender identity disorder according to the DSM IV.

A. A strong and persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). In children, the disturbance is manifested by four (or more) of the following:

repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the other sex

in boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; in girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine clothing

strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in make-believe play or persistent fantasies of being the other sex

intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimes of the other sex

strong preference for playmates of the other sex

B. Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex.

C. The disturbance is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition.

D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. (http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/38/14/32.full)

[–] matt-128-871621 14 years ago

What you copy and pasted at the top shows how you should refer to someone who is transgendered:

It even says here that "Brandon passed easily as a man in Humboldt, but was discovered to be biologically and legally female by local police who arrested HIM on a misdemeanor check forgery charge two weeks prior to HIS slaying." (http://data.club.cc.cmu.edu/~julie/text/teenarage.html)

[–] gator1110 14 years ago

She definitely identified as a man. But biological Teena was a woman.The definition I put down on dictionary.com is what Teena was a transsexual. Here's the definition and website once again. Transsexual -A person having a strong desire to assume the physical characteristics and gender role of the opposite sex.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transsexual?fromAsk=true&o=100074) Someone said that she was really a man, and clearly she wasn't. If she dressed like a man that's fine but she's still a woman. Like I stated men don't have periods like she did. If she was a woman why did she try to have surgery to get a penis? If she was a woman why when John and Tom dropped her pants there was a vagina? Why did she have to tie her breasts down, and put a sock in her underwear (to have a manly bulge)if she was really a man. Makes no sense.

[–] matt-128-871621 14 years ago

He, biologically, is a woman - who is transitioning to be a man. Therefore, you refer to him using male pronouns, and using the name "Brandon" and not "Teena" - because that is how he feels and what he wants. That is why he tried to have surgery and put a sock in his underwear. Because he wants to present himself as male - as Brandon.

This goes for real life - not just this movie. Transgender individuals want to be referred to by the sex they are living as - not the sex of the body they were born into.

I'm not trying to argue - just trying to help and educate.

[–] gator1110 14 years ago

That's fine. You proved my point. My whole point was biologically "Teena" or "Brandon" was a female. That's all I was was saying. She has the right to identify as a man if she wants, but that's not her genetic code. And that's no disrespect to her or anyone else in her situation.

The beginning point I was making was her deceptiveness was what was dangerous. Brian warned her that when she is found out there's going to be trouble. If she would of told everyone she was transgendered or a woman trapped in a man's body that's one thing. But she went the extra mile to look like a man. It would of been to her benefit to let people know this is what I am take it or leave it. Then you at least know where someone's heads at. But when you hang around someone for months and they find out what you are by reading the newspaper things can(and did) explode. When someone physically pulls your pants down to see what you are, it has gone too far. Teena or Brandon in no way deserved what happened to him/her. But being deceptive around the ignorant people he/she was around was a mistake.

[–] matt-128-871621 14 years ago

You're still referring to him with female pronouns. Instead of using "she" and "her," or "he/she" and "him/her," you should be using "he" and "his."

"And that's no disrespect to her or anyone else in her situation." - Using her rather than him shows disrespect.

As for the rest of the actual argument you're making, that's something else all together that I'm not weighing in on. All I'm trying to do is let you know the pronouns that should be used when describing your argument, or anything else having to do with a transgender individual.

[–] gator1110 14 years ago

It's not that deep. Biologically Teena Brandon or Brandon Teena he or she, him or her, is a female. Point blank period. If you have a period and a vagina you are biologically a woman. I can refer to myself as the King of England, but that doesn't make it true. When you check my birth certificate it is going to state otherwise. Teena Brandon/Brandon Teena's birth certificate most likely says female. It does not say this person will identify as a male so we'll put male on the birth certificate.

[–] matt-128-871621 14 years ago

Forget about the movie for a minute.

If you meet a FtM transgender person, whether pre, post, or non-op, and you keep referring to him using female pronouns, he won't be happy about it. When referring to transgender people, you use the pronouns for who they are living as, not the body they are born into.

[–] gator1110 14 years ago

That's fine. And if I meet a transgendered person and they want me to refer to them as the opposite sex that's fine. But if someone wanted to know the biological gender of them I'd have to say the truth. If I wanted to call myself The Crypt keeper and only wanted to be referred to as that name that's fine. But I have to own up if my birth certificate says something different. If a woman wants to refer or identify with a man that's fine. But if this man has a vagina,then I know what your biological identity is.

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

[–] cnookie 13 years ago

I'm glad to see that people stopped trying to educate gator1110. It's a lost cause. I don't know why I kept reading this thread, now I'm just frustrated.

[–] chort 13 years ago

Teena Brandon was a female, no matter how she wanted to be called.
Chastity Bobo is a woman for the same reason, she has cut herself up, taken drugs, but in the end XX is what she is.
BTW, the traitor who evaded the draft is still Cassius Clay.
All this sensitivity *beep* denies the truth.

Gott ist tot.
Nietzsche

[–] amoebapudding 13 years ago

I know this is old, but you are DENSE. Gender and sex are two different things. Sex is biological, and gender is how you identify. Therefore, Brandon's sex may have been female, but he was a man, as that's how he identified.

And it's just ridiculously disrespectful to call a transgender person by the wrong name or pronouns. I mean, is it going to harm you to use male pronouns? Is it going to personally hurt you? Is it going to be harder than using female pronouns? No, no, and no.

Also, the victim blaming is disgusting. He was presenting himself as a man because he WAS a man. It's not his fault at all that he was murdered. It's kind of like blaming a rape victim for their rape by saying they shouldn't have dressed a certain way. Would you apply that to other crimes? Oh, if he didn't want to get mugged, maybe he shouldn't have owned a nice cell phone! If they didn't want to get robbed, maybe they shouldn't have had such a nice house! Except those don't even compare to rape and murder. There's really no comparison.

Ignorance like yours is what perpetuates the stigma around transgender people. Use the right pronouns, use the right name, and don't blame them for other people's hate.

[–] versace14 9 years ago

Do you think people who have std's and either don't tell or lie about having them to their sexual partners is ok?

[–] starlit-sky 13 years ago

I guess why this argument is confusing (and not going anywhere) is about what really defines someone's gender - is it the genitalia/physical parts or hormones/how someone feels inside?

Those who argue that Brandon was a "she" believe it is genitalia that defines someone's gender.

I have to disagree. It is not black and white. That's why it's called "sexual identity crisis".

There is much more to someone's sexuality than what his/her genitalia look like. If you have female genitals but feel like a man inside, then you could be considered a man regardless of what the state, government or any other agency refers to you (they have no right to define your gender - but it's conveniently decided when you are born by the shape of your genitalia).

As for Brandon's lying, I don't think he really had a choice. Sometimes, you have to twist the truth in order to survive. Besides, don't forget the fact that Lana was fine with the way Teena was. So I am not sure what is it that she did was really wrong.

[–] insane_leprechaun 13 years ago

"As for Brandon's lying, I don't think he really had a choice. Sometimes, you have to twist the truth in order to survive. Besides, don't forget the fact that Lana was fine with the way Teena was. So I am not sure what is it that she did was really wrong."

Really? You didn't see what Teena did that was wrong? It's called being deceptive. You don't let someone fall in love with you and become sexually involved with you knowing what they're attracted to is something that doesn't exist in the way they believe, anyway.
Sure, it's understandable a transgendered person wouldn't want to exactly broadcast his/her secret to the entire world, but when it comes to potential lovers, people have a right to know the truth.
Lana was NOT fine with the way Teena was, as a person, as a friend, sure, but NOT as a boyfriend. Contrary to what was portrayed in the movie, Lana did not continue a sexual relationship with Brandon after finding out the truth, though they remained friends.
Lana was not a lesbian and was entitled to want to be with someone who was a man in every way. As much as Teena may have felt like a man in every sense of the word, she was, at the end of the day, anatomically female and could not provide what a heterosexual woman would want. That may not have been the business of people like John and Tom, but Lana and the other girls Brandon was involved with had a right to know.
To keep that information from her was selfish and wrong. Do you really think Lana would have become involved with Brandon romantically and sexually if she had known the truth from the beginning? Would you honestly not care to know if the person you were falling in love with and sexually attracted to was really a different physical gender than they were claiming to be?
Lana was not the first girl Brandon deceived into believing she was male, though it is questionable whether or not some of them knew the truth. Still, the principle remains. It's also worth noting that some of those girls were also underage, which I don't see as justifiable, gender identity crisis or not, it's illegal.
This movie portrays Teena Brandon as nothing but a sympathetic character, which as far as the rape and murder was concerned, she absolutely was. However, in the interest of maintaining that guise, the movie also conveniently left out a lot of information about Teena Brandon's life and that she was a lying, cheating, stealing, shady individual who caused a lot of heartache to her family and friends.

[–] starlit-sky 13 years ago

Brandon felt like a man and he approached women like a man and in that regard that is not deceptive. Someone like Brandon cannot explain to a person he just meets his condition and his genitals right from the beginning. People will be turned off by that immediately and won't even try to get to know him. He wouldn't have had any chance of dating anybody. That fact eventually will surface when they try to have sex. Most girls he dated thought he really was a complete man because he indeed felt like a complete man. It was not a pure deception but rather a consequence of his condition.

There are so many things people are deceptive about. I don't think Brandon was more deceptive than an average person. People lie about their age, their income, their jobs, if they have STDs, and even put their 10 yr old pictures on dating sites. In that regard, Brandon was not worse than any other average deceptive person out there. I am not disagreeing that is deceptive in some degree. I am disagreeing that it matters more than any other information people can be deceptive about.

The movie does portray him as a symphatetic character, I agree but it also shows that he was in trouble with the law, that he was convicted, had some criminal activities. And Brandon was wrong to do those things. However, his bizzare condition and the environment he was in played some factor in his wrong actions. I just don't like that we are still living a world people can be murdered for their sexual identitiy or preferences. I think we can agree on that.

[–] actionmanrandell 13 years ago

we are in no way obligated to refer to anyone as he when he is really a she.
it doesnt matter what you say if someone is born a female they will always be a female.
even if they so choose to refer to themselfs as a man

[–] actionmanrandell 13 years ago

it doesnt matter what an individual wants to be identified with. nature made her physically a woman therefor she was a woman
there is no ifs ands or buts about it

[–] sophrickco 13 years ago

Anatomically, he was a woman. You keep thumping that. But that isn't the point. Internally, this wasn't HIS true identity. Do you not take a person's own legitimate feelings into account?

A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere.

[–] actionmanrandell 10 years ago

nope biology doesn't lie. it doesn't matter what a person fills like in side a man is a man and a woman is a woman

[–] sophrickco 13 years ago

"Why would Teena need to put a sock in her underwear (to attempt to have a bulge like a man) and tie her breast down (to look like she was flat chested like a man)."
Because he didn't feel like a woman! What do you not understand about that? You keep saying, "yes, she may have identified with being a man...That's her prerogative" but then you follow that up with, "When John and Tom dropped her pants there was a vagina there, not a penis. And she also in the movie was hiding that she had a period. I know no men who have periods," negating everything you've just stated. If you truly understood this, you wouldn't keep contradicting yourself. And the reason you do this is because you're ignorant, fool.

A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere.

[–] footsperry 13 years ago

"The fact is that Teena was ..."
Actually the "fact" depends upon what is the source of authority for that fact. If the law says that Teena remains a female, then that's one kind of fact. But one's sexual identity is a culturally-defined thing, it's a legally-defined thing, and it's a personally experienced thing. In some cultures (for instance among certain American Indian societies) one's sexual identity is defined by one's mind/consciousness. If in our society the norm, the dominant expectation is that genes define sex status, then we have some whose experience doesn't match genes. Perhaps the truest thing would be to declare that Teena had the misfortune to grow up in the wrong culture.
As a matter of fact, do genes define, or do body parts? There are some people with chromosomal content that would define as male, but body parts as female. And there are others for whom the opposite is true. The international athletic competitions are in a mess with this one, because some sports federations go by chromosomes, and others go by gonads. And that has meant that some athletes in international competition would compete in one category or the other, based on the federation rules.
THE DSM IV is one of a number of authorities who change their minds from time to time. After all, remember the changing approaches in the DSM between 1950 and 1975 regarding "homosexuality": it moved from a disorder to another state of existence. And before the 20th century began, there were no homosexuals - the term was used as an adjective, to describe behavior, but the term "homosexual" was not a noun (specifying a state of being).

[–] actionmanrandell 13 years ago

no matter what you say teena was born a female lived in a female body had the genetic code of a female and no matter how many surgeries would change that

[–] charlesinnis 13 years ago

why does it even matter if what he did was wrong or not?
ugh just reading this makes me sick

[–] gator1110 13 years ago

I understand both sides of this argument. I don't wanna go as far as saying what Teena Brandon/Brandon Teena did was wrong, but it was dangerous in the particular town he/she lived in.

[–] Zentaurion 13 years ago

I don't think Brandon was meant to be seen in an entirely sympathetic light but that we were meant to feel empathy for the character. I think the idea is more to understand the desperation of the character rather than to judge them. And also about seeing what misguided and confused people do when they just don't know any better.

Also, seeing that the film was made by a female majority, I don't know if it's intentional, but there seems to be a subtext of a big "*beep* you" to everyone with a Y chromosome. What Brandon had to go through was harsh enough, so the world isn't made a better place by all the actual guys who live their lives being pussies. (Where was the father of Candace's baby or Lana's dad? etc.) So in the end, when Lana is driving away she smiles and it seems to me that what she is thinking is that after all that mess she needs to find someone who actually has and makes use of his Y chromosome, as it where.

'pay the man'

[–] sophrickco 13 years ago

What a bunch of bull. What are you, an MRA?

A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere.

[–] just-liliz 13 years ago

Brandon was a SHE but he considered himself a HE !! so it's a he. Period.
He did wrong about lying but he lied because he was scared! look what happened, he was killed when found out.
_____________________________________
...People are alike, I am different~

[–] gator1110 13 years ago

Exactly. Everybody on here crucified me when I did this. That deception was what got her in trouble.

[–] aliciabeatle 13 years ago

Dont worry, i understand what you are saying.

If i found out that a bloke i liked was really a woman it would offend me, because, they should have been honest in the first place.

People are who they are and its up to them to identify with whatever sex they are comfortable with.

Things change however when other people get involved, and think you are something that you aint.

Im not talking about the blokes in this film, they were just evil nasty, i am talking about the girl that Teena liked, she decived her.

[–] chilone 13 years ago

Sorry but vagina = girl.

I couldn't agree more.

I am a white male. Even if I dress up as a black woman and say I'm a woman and want to live as a black woman and even BELIEVE that I'm a black woman, guess what? I'm still a white male.

/debate

On the other hand... there's a glove

[–] BadSurge 13 years ago

I'm sorry, but I've never understood the whole "I'm a ______ born into a _____'s body" thing that transgender people believe. To me, it's just an excuse to be different.

HOWEVER...

That's how I perceive today's transgender patients, for the most part. But back even 10 years ago, being in a gay relationship could get you murdered. So for the sake of this film I'll make a hypothetical:

A girl realizes that she's not attracted to men, she's attracted to other women. As time goes by and she sees that she couldn't openly be with a woman the way her male peers are (holding hands, kissing and necking, all in public). Through time she relates more to men, observing their relationships and heartbreak. So she leaves her hometown and moves somewhere no one knows her, or knows anyone that knows her. She takes the identity of a male, for the sake of trying to achieve happiness through an intimate relationship with a woman. She has every intention of paying for the surgery that will make her appear to be a male, but doesn't have the funds for it yet. So she practices the male lifestyle until she can afford to pay up, all the while observing the behaviors and mannerisms of the men around her. She hides her true gender so that, when she has the operation, she can continue seamlessly being a man in this new home.

Now, I have no issue considering this person to be a man. As a male, it's no skin off my ass.

HOWEVER...

I don't think it's fair for other women to run the risk of having their heart broken after falling in love with a man and then realizing that it's a woman. I was approached by a girl at a house party I was throwing in a new town, and she relentlessly flirted with me. I knew their was something off about the chick (jaw, neck, hips) but I still considered her a female. But because of the weirdness I noticed I didn't reciprocate the flirting, then moved on to another girl I already met. I found out later the weird girl was a post-op transgender dude that all my new friends had gone to high school with. Although I smelled the *beep* and got away from her, I was still peeved at the intended deception (She made a joke about when she "first got her period" *beep*

So, in relation to this film, I don't completely agree with Brandon's methods, I empathize with his need to find happiness in a closed minded society that will never accept his. I have no issue referring to Brandon as a male, despite what my puritanical upbringing and science classes have taught me.
There's more to the human mind than science books can account for, or the Bible for that matter, and with the constant evolution of man I leave room for anomalies that I don't fully understand (e.g. Being a ______ in a ______'s body).

I believe transgenders should be more honest about their beginnings, but we as outsiders should be more open minded to their wishes when they are honest about it. Because a lot of the time you'll see a pre/post-op admit to being a transgender, and immediately regretting it when their peers refer to them as their previous pronoun.

And I know this is a long post. Frankly, I don't give a *beep* This is a writing feature on the site, and all I've done for the last five years is write. And I'm *beep* good at it. This "essay" took me 6 minutes to type.

[–] SoTyred 13 years ago

Teena Brandon wasn't even 'transgender', SHE was a con-artist from the get go, who accidently found out SHE could con more people by pretending that SHE was a boy. Maybe HER fate was not what SHE deserved, but as William Munny said : "Deserves got nothin to do with it." .

Mean while an innocent man (innocent of murder anyway) has the death penalty on him because the real killer ( Nissen...another compulsive liar) lied. And even tho there's ZERO evidence that puts Lotter at the scene of the crime, the courts have turned down his appeals after Nissen came clean.

**Skin that Smokewagon and see what happens!** Tombstone

[–] ricky_says_hi 13 years ago

Brandon was just a compulsive liar. he was good natured and overall a good person but let the lying get out of hand. obviously the deep south in the 90s wasn't exactly going to be the most accepting place but he deceived Lana for so long. something like that would be on level with lying about being married, having an STD etc

http://betterwithbob.blogspot.com/

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Kissyroberts 13 years ago

Actually HE did go to counselling, he did research, he did want a gender reassignment surgery(But that is very expensive and hard to get).
I agree to the point that when they had sex that he should have told her the truth at that point. But besides that he doesn't need to tell anyone what his body parts are. His vagina was nothing more than a deformity. I don't feel the need to go tell everyone that one of my thumbs are shorter than the other or show them every mole and freckle on my body. That's not lying about anything. It's just my business.