I kind of get the feeling that he didn’t.
Tony was just looking for an excuse to kill Ralphie because he beat that girl to death outside the club.
Ralphie seemed genuinely surprised at the accusation, and it seemed like he wouldn’t even waste the energy to orchestrate the hit of a horse.
Any thoughts?
He def did it
shareI seem to recall it improved his gambling odds so yeah, he did it, out of pure greed.
The interesting thing is whether Tony ever really cared about the horse or if it was his sociopathic faux care for animals, and his rage was displaced from elsewhere.
Yes. I recall this whole scenario, and his passion for the Animal seemed unhinged from his lack of compassion for other people. I feel it was was all Constructed for us to question his real feelings, how he really really felt about abstract questions toward human cruelty versus animal cruelty.
shareOne of the best things from the series is asking whether Tony is a sociopath or not. I’m inclined to say ‘no’ because he clearly loves his family more than anything, and compared to some of the sadistic psychos he’s surrounded with he seems like the reasonable one. Even his love for the horse seemed genuine - he wasn’t showing off parading it around and proclaiming himself an animal lover, he even seemed surprised by how much he bonded with it.
Even his sessions with Dr Melfi seemed genuine, not like he was just using them to improve his criminal mind - as Melfi comes to believe, culminating in her kicking him out.
Tony was a creature born of the Mafia where criminality and violence are the norm, he tried to live a normal life and almost developed some spirituality, but those bad habits were baked in and he could never escape them. He’s a hopeless crook but not a sociopath.
"and compared to some of the sadistic psychos he’s surrounded with he seems like the reasonable one"
Really? He seemed on average spectrum compared to the rest of his crew. Sure, he was better than Ralph, Phil, Paulie, Ritchie Aprile and Chris, but much worse than Silvio, Carlo, Furio, Patsy, Carmine, Vito and especially Bobby, I'd say he's equal with Johnny Sac.
Yeah, that’s why I said ‘compared to some of the psychos he’s surrounded with’
Tony is a sociopath, even people with ASPD can have “loved ones,” but he’s still in need of psychiatric help.
shareIf he’s a sociopath then what good would psychiatric help bring? Sociopathy is baked in from birth.
Several characters in The Sopranos are sociopaths and delight in killing and maiming unnecessarily. Tony’s not one of them.
No one knows what causes ASPD. The majority of the research points to environmental factors. Tony definitely has all the traits of a sociopath.
shareHe’s a gangster, born into a dog-eat-dog world. Some of the gangsters in The Sopranos are sociopaths and delight in killing and maiming unnecessarily. Tony’s not one of them.
On the contrary, it’s precisely because Tony was born into a life of crime that he is a sociopath.
shareWell that doesn’t make sense because sociopathy is a condition you’re born with.
shareASPD is a mixture of genetic and environmental factors, so someone can be born with a tendencies towards it, but it can develop because of their environment I.e child abuse. So someone with inherited traits might not develop ASPD if they’re raised right.
shareOK but sociopathy is a condition you’re born with, and Tony wasn’t a sociopath, he was just a dude born into the gangster world which shaped him into a gangster.
Some of the gangsters in The Sopranos are sociopaths and delight in killing and maiming unnecessarily. Tony’s not one of them.
You don’t have to be born a sociopath, you can turn into one due to your upbringing. Tony definitely ticked all the boxes of being a sociopath (or ASPD as it’s clinically called).
A person with ASPD doesn’t have to take delight in killing or maiming, it just means that they don’t have empathy for other human beings and are able to hurt others without remorse. Tony definitely killed a lot of people with zero guilt or remorse. Sociopath.
Tony does have empathy for others, especially his family. He’s far more empathetic than many of the mobsters he’s surrounded by.
If he doesn’t show remorse after killing someone it’s because they were a threat to him and/or his family. His violence is almost always self-defensive, unlike sociopaths like Ralphie.
Lol Tony doesn’t have empathy even for his family. He frequently cheats on his wife and lied to and emotionally abuses his kids. Saying he’s more empathetic than his other psychopath crew members is like saying Stalin was better than Hitler. Tony is a narcissistic, Machiavellian, lying and manipulative criminal who uses violence and force to steal from the community. He is a parasite.
Literally the only time he could legitimately claim self defense was when he shot Chucky Signore because he was actually plotting to murder Tony. Every other time Tony is no where justified for murdering people just because he wants to continue to be a criminal. That’s not how ethics work.
If Tony doesn’t have empathy for his family then why did he bother saving his son from drowning?
It’s a common misconception that people with ASPD are unfeeling robotics that go through life hating everyone and everything. It’s like asking why was Ralphie so upset his son was almost killed and ended up in hospital. Sociopaths can still have relationships, it’s just they have trouble relating to other people’s emotions on the whole and trusting the rest of the world.
shareGreat, tell that to someone who harbours misconceptions about ASPD.
You said ‘Tony doesn’t have empathy even for his family’.
If he doesn’t have empathy even for his family then why did he bother saving his son from drowning?
That’s like asking why did Ralphie call an ambulance for his son when he was shot with an arrow and almost died. Just because you’re a sick sociopath doesn’t mean you can’t have personal relationships or family.
shareOK but you said ‘Tony doesn’t have empathy even for his family’. If he bothers to save his son from drowning then surely he does have empathy for his family?
Tony only has empathy for small babies and animals. You’ll notice when he pulls AJ out of the pool he cuddles him like a baby and says “it’s all right baby,” because that’s the only way he can relate to his pain. When AJ was suffering from depression Tony didn’t care or understand why. It’s part of his sociopathic mind. Tony doesn’t have empathy for other human beings, he only values relationships that benefit and service him.
shareSo you think Tony only saves his son from drowning because he imagines him to be… a baby?
Why is he constantly protective over his daughter, battering a guy who makes lewd comments at her?
Why does he look after his mother, setting her up in an old people’s home, and take care of his increasingly demented uncle.
In fact, the last two tried to kill him and he still showed kindness and empathy toward them, which is more than most people would do to someone who tried to kill them.
It seems that Tony has an abundance of empathy for his family, or do you think he imagines them all to be babies?
I don’t get your logic. Are you saying Hitler was also not a sociopath just because he loved his wife and did “nice things” for her?
And yes, curb stomping a guy because he made lewd comments about Meadow really shows what a normal, stable individual Tony is… NOT. If anything, it shows that Tony and Meadow are both a couple of sociopaths.
I think you’re mixing up “social niceties” with actual empathy. Just because you pretend to be nice doesn’t make you actually nice.
Putting his mother in a nursing home is an example of Tony’s “love”? Lol, he literally tried to suffocate her.
Tony has an abundance of cancerous behaviour inside him (his quote to Carmella: “when I’m gone you can live in a f-cking dumpster for all I care”)
Simply put, Tony is a terrible person with serious psychological and behavioural issues who treats his family like sh*t.
Please answer the questions, here they are again.
So you think Tony only saves his son from drowning because he imagines him to be… a baby?share
Why is he constantly protective over his daughter, battering a guy who makes lewd comments at her?
Why does he look after his mother, setting her up in an old people’s home, and take care of his increasingly demented uncle.
In fact, the last two tried to kill him and he still showed kindness and empathy toward them, which is more than most people would do to someone who tried to kill them.
It seems that Tony has an abundance of empathy for his family, or do you think he imagines them all to be babies?
I already answered your questions. Here they are again:
I don’t get your logic. Are you saying Hitler was also not a sociopath just because he loved his wife and did “nice things” for her?
And yes, curb stomping a guy because he made lewd comments about Meadow really shows what a normal, stable individual Tony is… NOT. If anything, it shows that Tony and Meadow are both a couple of sociopaths.
I think you’re mixing up “social niceties” with actual empathy. Just because you pretend to be nice doesn’t make you actually nice.
Putting his mother in a nursing home is an example of Tony’s “love”? Lol, he literally tried to suffocate her.
Tony has an abundance of cancerous behaviour inside him (his quote to Carmella: “when I’m gone you can live in a f-cking dumpster for all I care”)
Simply put, Tony is a terrible person with serious psychological and behavioural issues who treats his family like sh*t.
That’s just a wall of text deflecting from my questions. You haven’t even mentioned babies, which two of the questions were about.
It’s looking like you’re afraid to answer questions about your own argument because you’ve subsequently realised that it’s flawed.
Until you answer the questions that will be the assumption.
I guess I haven't made myself very clear. You are confusing Tony's sentiment towards aspects of his life with genuine empathy, aka recognizing people's feelings. Tony makes a big show and evokes lots of emotion, but there's no interest in other people's feelings in it. It's made apparent in the show that his sentimentality towards things like his children, babies, parents and animals is another guise of his sociopathic mind. It's a ruse for his almost total indifference and narcissism.
I answered all your genuine questions, the only ones I ignored were the baby ones, because they were strawmen arguments.
I suggest you rewatch the show.
https://attchub.org/userfiles/file/GreatLakes/Webinars/Thinking%20Errors%20Handout.pdf
That’s right, you haven’t made yourself clear, so let’s clear this up.
You stated that ‘Tony only has empathy for small babies and animals’ and that ‘Tony doesn’t have empathy even for his family’.
If that’s true then why does he bother saving his son? Why not leave him to drown?
And why does he batter the guy who disrespected his daughter?
If that’s true then why does he bother saving his son? Why not leave him to drown?
And why does he batter the guy who disrespected his daughter?
You’re dodging questions about your own statements again.
It’s looking like you’re afraid to answer questions about your own argument because you’ve subsequently realised that it’s flawed.
Until you answer the questions that will be the assumption.
I’ve already answered all the questions. What I’m doing is drawing a salient point between Ralphie and Tony. If, in your opinion, Tony could only be a sociopath if he let his son drown, then why would Ralphie (a true sociopath) call an ambulance to save his son? By your logic Ralphie should have let him die. Until you can answer this conundrum you’ve created I will see fit to ignore anymore of your pointless meanderings.
shareNo you haven’t answered them, you’re deflecting again. We can discuss new topics and address your questions once you’ve answered mine. Here they are again…
You stated that ‘Tony only has empathy for small babies and animals’ and that ‘Tony doesn’t have empathy even for his family’.
If that’s true then why does he bother saving his son? Why not leave him to drown?
And why does he batter the guy who disrespected his daughter?
I would say it's your logic that is off. To judge whether someone is empathetic, you have to look at the circumstances they grew up in. Almost all of Tony's attributes are either common with Italian Americans of his kind or tendencies that have proven a track record of success for the work that he does. Tony almost always try to do the right thing unless it's too far out of line within his culture.
With all of that said, you have to decide for yourself that his culture is sociopathic in nature, otherwise you'll have to demonstrate to me Tony's other traits that make him particularly sociopathic that are not consistent within that life.
Tony was born and raised to be a predator among predators. Everything outside of those tendencies he's not what would be typically considered a sociopath because he experiences guilt which is a key factor in sociopaths and he experiences this for those he cares about or should care about.
He let AJ verbally abuse, disregard and walk all over him as well as his wife which let him off the hook for having to do or care about anything. AJ only started acting right when Tony starting strictly enforcing boundaries, granted it was usually through the threat of violence but he's only ever slapped AJ even with is often extremely disrespectful behavior, but in any case, physical discipline is not a trait exclusive to sociopaths
The real sociopath is his mother who tried to have him killed 2 times during a time where he provided for her the most out of everyone and tried to help her and all he ever wanted was her love and to be a good son.
My logic isn't off at all. You're just too stupid to grasp simple concepts. You must be a sock account.
Almost all of Tony's attributes are either common with Italian Americans
you'll have to demonstrate to me Tony's other traits that make him particularly sociopathic that are not consistent within that life.
The real sociopath is his mother
Correct on every point.
You’ll notice degray9 has dodged my simple questions about his own argument for the second time.
He knows he’s wrong and is just digging himself deeper now.
IMO Tony wasn't born a sociopath, he was made by his parents and mafia culture. Deep down he wanted to be a regular guy, have a family, play softball on the weekends, watch the big game with friends, but none of that was possible.
shareExactly. Plus let’s not forget that he started visiting Dr Melfi because he collapsed from stresses piling up from his dysfunctional childhood (much of it due to his mother who was a sociopath) and the gangster world he operates in - all of which conflicted with his deep desires to be free of all that and live a normal family life.
He’s not a sociopath like Ralphie who can kill innocent women or animals and sleep like a baby.
Yes.
shareHe admitted to killing the horse in the scene. Stop trying to create plot holes
shareHe didn't really admit to it, actually. Tony says "Jesus Christ, you did it. You cooked that horse alive." Then Ralphie yells "No, I DID NOT, but so what?!! It was a fucking animal!!"
I mean, you could interpret the "so what" as a tenuous confession, but he definitely never explicitly admitted to it.
In any case, I still think he did it, for sure.
NO, HE DID NOT! But so what if he did? It was just a horse!
shareNo, he did not kill that horse. That really wouldn't fit with where he was at at that point. He was too busy with his own grief about his son who was in the hospital, critically wounded by an arrow, to do anything like that. When Tony visits, Ralphie is still deep in depression. Joe Pantoliano, who played Ralph, is on record saying Ralphie was innocent of this particular crime, and that's how he played it - it was an irony that Ralphie ended up being killed for something he didn't do after all the things he had done to deserve an end like that. This was a long time coming ever since he murdered that stripper that he got pregnant, and people have speculated if Tony's final words to him might have been a dual reference to that ("she was a beautiful, innocent creature, what did she ever do to you").
share