MovieChat Forums > October Sky (1999) Discussion > A time when U.S. kids could learn chemis...

A time when U.S. kids could learn chemistry and rocketry on their own

posted 17 years ago by schear
38 replies | jump to latest

I was born in 1950 and also built rockets beginning in my Junior High days (about 1962). My friends and I started with the paper rockets still popular with hobbyists, first buying the engines and later progressing to making our own fuels and engines. By 1963, using a great book about amateur rocketry by the Army's Fort Sill, Oklahoma, Artillery School, we began building metal rockets. The first ones were about 24-inches in length and used zinc-sulfur as fuel (very safe stuff to work with). In time, we built rockets (even multistage) up to about 10-feet in height using various solid fuel combinations, including perchlorates (dangerous stuff to handle). Some used trapped exhaust gases to propel them from mortar increase launch velocity and reduce dispersion (most were unguided to reduce costs).

The later rockets were launched at several Southern California sites, including near Edwards Air Force Base and the China Lake Naval facility, with coordination of their control towers. The military tracked the rockets to tell us altitude achieved and approximate landing locations. Our highest confirmed altitude was in excess of 100,000 feet.

We learned practical metallurgy (while our other friends built spice racks in Metal Shop my buds were spinning nozzles and nose cones on the lathe), chemistry, aeronautics, etc., mostly on our own. We purchased all our chemicals without restriction (mostly from Central Scientific Company, Cenco, in Santa Ana), were solving redox reactions at 12 years old, built an instrumented engine test stand to record engine performance and none of our teachers turned us in to police for our brilliant experiments.

How times have changed! Today, you will be investigated for even trying to purchase these chemicals (and anyone selling them to you will be raided) and if you do manage to get them without notice you will probably face federal charges for launching the rockets if you don't get FAA approvals (very difficult to obtain).

Today you can't even buy a real chemistry set like we could. Public spokesmen will say its to protect children and society, but most any scientist will tell you that engaging in science involves some risk taking. If you remove all the risk you remove the fun and the learning. Is it any wonder that so few kids today choose to become chemists and enter other sciences?

[–] Mush_Man29 17 years ago

I agree - not so much about being able to buy chemicals and all that, but about redox reactions when kids were younger...

I've just finished my final year of school in Australia, and everything seems to be, well to put it bluntly, "dumbed down". There's not that much of an emphasis on learning persay, until the last few years of high school, yet basic maths and english will get you through.

Your last statement hit the nail on the head

[–] Homer900 17 years ago

Schear, I'm only 5 years younger and can remember those chemistry sets and the other things we did with household chemicals. You're right of course; taking your shotgun to school in your pickup was no big thing 35-40 years ago. Nowadays, SWAT teams. Give a kid a chemistry set? OMG, you're setting that child up to FAIL and hurt their self-esteem. I could go on, but the spirit of exploration and adventure seems to have died some where and I don't think we'll see a resurrection. Sad...

[–] worm_hole_1 17 years ago

The only good thing is now we have computer simulators for rocket trajectory and behavior. We can pre-determine an approximate (if not exact)flight path, height and other details.
Cheers.

[–] Razzbar 10 years ago

Which is nowhere near as educational or satisfying as getting your hands dirty and really, actually, doing it. Not even close.

[–] jjtoday2001 17 years ago

Unfortunately, the vast vast majority of kids are not competent to build engines or mix propellants, and risk disastrous (explosive) consequences if they try it. Not to mention building the (unguided, as you note) rockets out of metal and other high-weight components results in potentially very dangerous projectiles requiring huge open spaces and fortified bunker facilties to launch.

Using factory-made motor units and lightweight (non-metallic) components allow a larger number of kids to get involved in rocketry without presenting a huge danger to themselves or anybody else.

[–] DavidStHubbinsUSA 17 years ago

Terrorism has stolen that which we were able to do before as kids and not get looked at closely for natural healthy curiousity. Granted there were dangers but that was accepted and allowed to progress and creativity which brought about alot of the things we enjoy today. The way kids live now is a crime compared to the freedom we once enjoyed.

[–] Barneosaur 17 years ago

as a kid i always tried to find chemistry sets or stuff to build rockets and i could find nothinthing, i agree, terrorism is just as bad as the red scare

[–] josh_ff8 17 years ago

Terrorism isn't to blame, it's our whole PC culture in general. The whole "safety scare" which has plagued our society for the past 20 years or so (reaching a head with Columbine) is what is to blame from discouraging kids from experimenting and taking risks in general.

I'm only in my 20's, but was fortunate enough to grow up on a farm in the middle of nowhere. My friends and I would go exploring the woods, swimming and fishing in the local ponds, climbing trees, (attempting) to build all kinds of contraptions from spare farm materials, etc. We basically had no real supervision. Sure, I had some close calls playing with fire and gasoline/fireworks, but those were some of my fondest memories from childhood!

I really feel bad for all these kids who grow up in bland suburbia with nothing to do, and with parents peering over the shoulders not letting them out of their sight for fear of some boogeyman magically abducting them from the SUV on the way to violin practice. It's a real shame.

[–] DavidStHubbinsUSA 17 years ago

The reasons you discribes are indeed terristic reasons. Terrorism within the country like Columbine is terrorism non the less. When we were kids we made plenty of pipe bombs and set them off. Not to hurt or destroy but because it was fun. Those are now considered possible acts of terrorism. Sure, even then those were unlawful acts but no one made a big deal out of it. It was kids. PC comes from the way we now perceive threats to our safety and those things that we did harmelessly then are now serious Federal offenses and watched very carefully by all due to the way that our culture now has to live. Your statements basically repeat my post.

[–] josh_ff8 17 years ago

Yeah, I was basically agreeing with you--just in a different way. No need to come down on me.

BTW, I think the whole "trapped in suburbia" syndrome is what (sometimes, but not always) ultimately leads kids toward things like Columbine, hard drugs, etc. They just feel so stifled and repressed that they act out against those feelings. If they had free rein to explore like in the "good old days," maybe the kids would be alright. But I think I'm rambling a bit...

[–] dreams_at_tok 16 years ago

Terrorism? Huh? What?? People don't experiment because it's all to convenient nowadays. These rockets come pre-fabricated at the hobby store, so who wants to fiddle together their own, by trial and error? Especially if these can be bought in instantaneously! It's like the internet revolution, nobody wants to go back to 14.4bps! It's too slow! That, and mainly, every kid nowadays is glued to their video games.. Video games and TV are the number one culprit, a nation of zombies!

[–] Florida2 16 years ago

True - I was a kid of the 1960's, and, the war, hippies and politics aside, it was still a time when kids could be themselves - minus survelliance cameras, school lock-downs and sneakers with GPS chips...

I liked weather, among other interests, and the old book library was always a good place to go to see pictures of clouds and various weather phenonema...

Fortunately, I did get to live my life's dream by working in weather for a number of years, so, like the boys in the movie, yes, we all had very low-tech humble beginnings, but by God giving us the opportunity - and by our making sure to take the opportunity God gave us, since the door can only remain open for so long (what would have happened had Homer stayed in the coal mine?) - we were able to live our dreams, without the "help" of the over-burdened society we live in today...

Florida2

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] csullaf 17 years ago

One fact that the movie left out is that all of these boys really became acquainted and discovered their common interest while they were members of the company-sponsored Boy Scout Troop in town.

Of course, Hollywood won't mention that, since they have villified the Boy Scout movement. Just ask ex-Eagle Scout Steven Spielberg.

That said, it was an excellent movie.

[–] Tyrfingr 16 years ago

The downside with an exaggerated capitalism/consumation and expanding massproduction over handcrafted commodities. Is that any moron can monitor and operate the machines that assembles the pieces, without much learning or knowledge.

Exaggeration in anything, always causes a reverse reaction that is equally bad. And this is no less true in progress. For everything should be approached with a healthy dose of observation to what is most beneficial to human nature, and nature itself. Abandoning true knowledge and craftmanship in favor of profit, will in turn cause people to lose that knowledge and craftmanship. And history shows us that old knowledge and craftmanship have been re-invented and re-discovered because it was lost at some point.

[–] rwsmith29456 16 years ago

I want my son to be free and roam like I did as a kid but EVERYTHING is so restricted now. I once met a young man, much younger than me, that grew up in a small town and the way he talked about how they entertained themselves really sounded like the old days. Now kids can't do anything fun, so they shoot each other and do drugs instead. I'd rather have the old days back and accept some accidents rather than today people getting shot for no reason.

[–] ElevenStars 16 years ago

i completely agree! i have a 7 yr old son and his life in no way resembles the "fun" i had when i was young girl. he has no woods to wander through and no creeks to send boats sailing down. if he did have those available, i'd be labeled a terrible mom to let him wander alone - it's even too "risky" for him to ride his bike in our own neighborhood alone!

i'm not sure when adults became more scared of the Imagined Threats, but if you look at the nightly line up of shows you'll see we are indeed fascinated with all the CSIs and the Missing Person shows.... so we have come to believe any and all of those crimes could happen right in our own front yard! :(

2 things i thought i'd share:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23935873/ <--- the backlash that happens when parents DO try to give their children independence is ridiculous.

http://www.dangerousbookforboys.com/ <--- i now give this book to all the young guys i know in hopes of letting them learn the things that were taken for granted by previous generations!

I'm glad i wasn't the only one who had the same reaction to this movie! and to the australian who thought the classes had been dumbed-down ... they HAVE been!
http://www.snopes.com/lost/fraction.asp

~~"Ah, curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"~~

[–] Milkyway123 16 years ago

ElevenStars:
"it's even too risky for him to ride his bike in our own neighborhood alone!"
Who says? If it isn't too risky, why don't you still let him go out and play?
Are you afraid of what people might say, or are you afraid that something will indeed happen?

"i'm not sure when adults became more scared of the Imagined Threats"
True, that media preys on our fears, but to say "imagined [threats]" is ignorant!

"so we have come to believe any and all of those crimes could happen right in our own front yard!"
But they can! Though, I'm sure you meant "would"?
I don't like the idea of restricting kids more than my fellow man, I think it would be a huge detriment to human progress eventually (we would have no JFK's, Nelson Mandela's or whoever you can think of). But lets face it, the world has changed, it's not like it was, therefor we can't act like it is.
The world is more vile (because WE have made it so), for whatever reason (I can think of a few). People are more vile. The world and everyone in it is more dangerous, because they've been stricken with the decease: apathy. It's a epidemic really. So because of the times we live in - "apparently" this is the way you "survive".
However, we should not accept this situation, and children should definitely not pay for our failure of shaping this world in to something they can safely live in. There are a lot of different ways to let a child be independent and get a good experience from life. There are a lot of ways, which I will avoid listing (since I have my ideas, and I'm sure others have to). But it relies solely on one thing: the parents. Parents should more actively participate in their children's time, what they are doing. Don't let them waste hours, years in front of a screen.

"http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23935873/ <--- the backlash that happens when parents DO try to give their children independence is ridiculous."
I read the article and I agreed with some and other things I didn't. First of all, couldn't that same independence be teached in a better way?
Secondly, one good thing about modern technology is that almost anyone has access to it, so why not give the kid a cellphone, just in case. It would minimize a lot of stuff that could go wrong.
Thirdly, if people were actively seeking to take away the child from the mother, she should sue them for being righteous pricks!

Btw, thanks for mentioning "Dangerous book for boys", I had never heard of it before. Looks great! I can also mention there is a equivalent book aimed for girls: The Daring Book for Girls"

~It's better to burn out than to fade away~

[–] what111 16 years ago

yes great post!! im in my late teens, and luckily i have never really been very restricted at all, and it actually makes me angry seeing what kids these days do for fun, almost everybodies idea of fun is sitting around all night getting drunk or high. its just sad.

luckily, i have extremely cool parents, they are always talking about the same points you are trying to make, about how horrible it is to restrict kids so much.
and they have hardly ever given me any restrictions, when i was around 8 years old i started riding my bike around town, usually going the big city pool about 5 miles away, and to get there you had to cut across a big main road with a speed limit of 60, ride along a 3 foot wide path with an irrigation ditch on one side and a big like 20 foot drop on the other. and my parents didnt think anything of it, neither did i, now that i think about it, im suprised my parents didnt get and criticism for it.

by 10 i would leave in the morning without telling my parents what i was doing, and come back whenever i wanted, usually around 8 or 9 at night, and again, it wasnt any big deal at all. sometimes we would bike about 10 miles up a mountain road to a lake, and jump off cliffs all day. my parents knew about it and only had good things to say.

by my early teens me and my friends started experimenting with fire and pipe bombs, we would go out with gallons of gas in this big empty parking lot and throw spray paint cans in and wath them blow up, make flame throwers out of super soakers, etc... my mom wasnt too excited about this but my dad thought it was great. one time we got caught and they called all our parents, the other parents were getting extremely mad at my dad for being ok with it, one kids parents even said he couldnt come to our house.

recently we have still been doing alot of this stuff, we live in a somewhat secluded area, only each house is about a half a mile apart, so we can do some fun stuff right in our back yard. anyway last year, we dug a 4 foot deep 4 foot wide hole, and filled it with as much gas and flamable liquid as we could, lit a 1 minute fuse, and we had our crappy golf cart to get away fast, my dad was with us, and as we were running to the cart, my dad just says "later boys" and drives off, so we had to run like hell. anyway it was a HUGE blast, like a 30 foot tall flame coming out of the ground, our closest neighbor called right after thinking somebody died or something.

just last month we made a pipe bomb and blew up a washing machine, the main part went like 40 feet high, and a bunch of debree hit the house, and my dad just came out and said "why didnt you invite me!"

so yeah there are still people out there like you who have some common sense left and understand whats really good for kids, and not every kid these days is hopeless.
i guess blowing stuff up isnt the best thing i could be doing, but hell its alot better than sitting on a couch every day with my friends getting wasted and smoking weed for fun, then getting so tired and fed up with my life that i go slit my wrists, id rather die happy blowing myself up than dying depressed and mad at my horrible life.

sorry for the long rant but it really just makes me mad how stupid some people are, do they not notice that the more we shelter and try to protect kids from anything dangerous, the more suicides, school shootings, extreme depression, drunk driving, drugs, etc... look at your average kid living in a big city, who's entire life is controled by teachers and parents, the little amount of time they have alone is spend drinking and doing drugs, and see how happy they are and where they end up.
then look at some kid who grows up in some small town in nebraska or something having all the freedom in the world, making mistakes, and getting hurt. and see how happy he is and where he ends up.

theres a big difference, i live in a town that has all sorts of kids hicks who live in the rural part of town, city type kids who live downtown, and the kids who grow up in nice little neighborhoods, and out of the many friends i have and ive had throughout the years, you can see that in pretty much every case, the more sheltered they are, the more depressed they are, you can see a slow progression throughout the years.

[–] Ironman54 15 years ago

Just read your post in horror !!! I was cool with it up until the 'pipe bombs'. As an ez basement bomber myself and having grown up similar to you ('cept my parents knew NOTHING about the chemicals/bombs) I like to caution you - some times you can go too far .... I basically ruined my life after making a simple mistake building a pipe bomb. I was no novice at the time either. I became too comfortable with it all as it had become routine. I spent close to a year in the hospital - reconstructive surgeries etc., and severely limited what I can do in life because of it. If you've lucked this far I'd advise you to call it a day, consider yourself lucky and move on to a much less hazardous hobby. I was lucky. A friend lost an eye and he's lucky not to be blind. I lost a hand.There are necessary and unnecessary risks in life. This is one that I would call a foolish and unnecessary risk. If you think it can't happen to you - as I did, you're fooling yourself.

[–] captbeefheart6 16 years ago

look up Jimmy Blackmon and David Hahn, you'll see why its prohibited now.

[–] Ironman54 16 years ago

I hate to admit this but I was part of the reason this is so. Long before the concern that certain "groups" could use the materials for deadly attacks the laws were changed to protect kids. If you remember (born in '50 right ?) one could turn to the back pages of "Popular Science Magazine" and order from the "Science and Chemistry" ads, just about any chemical + underwater (M-80 type) fireworks fuse. Also for sale were manuals, some just hand typed by some guy wanting to make a buck or two on the side, detailing how to make just about any concoction a kid could ever want ! And the ads often targeted kids. All a 12 year old had to do back then is sign the little order blank torn from the magazine page "certifying" he was "18 years old" and have an address UPS could deliver to and WOW !! You were in business !! A deadly business ! I don't know anyone that was actually killed but I do know friends that were blinded, accidentally burnt their house to the ground etc., etc. Unfortunately I was also in the long line of basement bomber casualties (you could also join the "Basement Bombers club" and get a card certifying your membership !) In '69 I
made one very regrettable mistake resulting in Over a year spent in the hospital (not to mention the "Hell" I/it put my parents through). When I was interviewed by various "authorities" I explained to them just how easy it was to obtain all this "stuff". A local politician took off to DC and put a halt to it all via legislation. In hind sight (thank G_d I have sight still !) this WAS good legislation. Like guns, in the hands of the young, un trained and inexperienced, these chemicals can have deadly consequences.
I wish we were mature enough to have been satisfied with just making rockets but when you tell a kid (through ads) "Hey, did you know you can make Merc.Fulm. at home ?? Just need a small 'fridge, these chemicals and my/our instructions !" Yeah, adults selling this stuff to minors - real nice.
It was that blatant ! How to make "contact powder" (lead azide) and surprise your friends !" What kid could resist ?? LOL !! Apparently many - but I wasn't would that could. Sending up a rocket with a "report" just increased the thrill of the same ol' "vanilla" rockets ! It wasn't long before we were making professional grade July 4th "stuff". One friend ordered and actually received a manual (military) of various demolition "tricks of the trade". I'm being vague here (intentionally) but I'm sure you get the idea and possibly remember how it was "back in the day". This "stuff' is hazardous/was for trained professionals and it certainly doesn't belong in the hands of kids.
As shown in this movie the plain vanilla (pun intended I guess) rocket alone could be deadly. I've launched (and watched the launching) of many errant rockets - one almost clear through the tailgate of a pick up truck ! We had a "blast" but certainly not worth the pain and suffering it all cost in the end.
Personally, I spent over a year in the hospital(s) - skin grafts, reconstructive surgeries etc.I had a friend loose an eye several years before my mishap but still we pursued the "hobby". At 14 it just won't happen to you.
Live & learn. So, that the long & short of why you haven't been able to get most of the materials since 1969. Sorry !
I've watched this movie several times and it always brings back the good memories. Those boys were lucky - they were "winging it" so luck played a big role, trust me.
I'm happy for them and the movie is inspiring. I'm not bitter or complaining here - just the luck of the draw. Hell, I can't even light a barbecue grill all these years later LOL ! No joke ! I do still enjoy a good 4th display though -
from a distance. My boys were given Estes rocket sets for Christmas one year by an unknowing, well meaning in-law. My kids never got "the bug"however.Safe when supervised. The boxes are still here around the house somewhere. I do think the days are over though when a kid can put to use the practical experience of hands on rocket building anyhow. Everything's done these days with computer simulation. A shuttle goes up and no one pays attention anymore. I'll never forget John Glenns first orbit - watched the launch as I'm sure you did.
Very exciting back then - all in a time capsule along with Ed Sullivan, the Zapruder/Oswald footage, Khrushchev and his shoe etc. LOL !! Those were the days my friend.

[–] jaystarstar 14 years ago

To back up my own post and also Ironman's:

I love "October Sky" and have watched it dozens of times and yes, it does depict a time when there were many fewer safety regulations, but there were also a lot more kids with fingers blown off, etc etc.

"October Sky" is exciting and entertaining and all that, but it's also a MOVIE which presents a sanitized version of reality.

The sequence where they are launching rocket after rocket after rocket (20 or so in all) and they all blow up. Every time one of those rockets blows up, you have metal shrapnel showering the launch site at bullet speed. Yeah they built their little launch house but shrapnel can go through thin wood and also I don't think it's very likely the window they stole from the railroad was bulletproof glass, so shrapnel could smash right through there, too.

Bottom line if you shot off 20 rockets in a row like that and they all blew up, odds you would get through that without somebody catching a piece of shrapnel in the arm or leg or head or something would be almost astronomical.

I was a kid in the 1960s (actually I was born a couple months after this movie was set) and I was heavily involved in model rocketry for several years (and have gotten back in in recent years).

I didn't feel particularly deprived because I didn't get a chance to blow my parents' basement to pieces or take my own head off trying to mix some kind of ammonium perchlorate mix in the basement.

Instead I just plugged the pre-made engines in the rocket, hooked up the igniters, pushed the button, and off it goes. Not to mention the fact that unlike homemade engines in which you are basically just guessing how much power it was going to produce, I had some idea how high it was going to go. I got to do stuff like calculate aerodynamic stability, launch cameras, build contest gliders, design new rockets (now there is software you can do all that on computers, too).

You can still learn plenty of that stuff, however it is not necessary to blow your own head off in the process of doing it.

[–] thewolfchild 16 years ago

I agree with your point. No way in hell could teens today pull off the accomplishments made by the "Rocket Boys". Any one of the 'alphabet agencies' (DHS, FBI, FAA, NRO, NSA, USAF, NASA, NTSB, etc, etc, etc) along with state and local law enforcement would certainly get in the way.

By the way, did your 'rocket days' lead you to the areospace industry?

Wolf

"I Drank What?!" - Socrates