MovieChat Forums > Batman & Robin (1997) Discussion > Was the franchise decline inevitable?

Was the franchise decline inevitable?


You see this all the time with movies that have spawned a lot of sequels, there's nearly always a Die Hard 5, a Terminator Genisys or a Superman 4 or any kind of film that changes what the franchise is.

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Obviously, the longer a franchise goes on the greater the odds that the next film will suck, but B&R dropped so far. Batman Forever isn't on the level of Burton's movies, but it was hugely successful and light years ahead of this.

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I don't think darker, less toyetic or less camp would've necessarily made a better film but I think it would make a more even one. In anyway a fourth or fifth film was going to be inferior to it's predecessors, even through Batman Forever has it's flaws it's light years head of B&R, Forever was telling a story with heart but things went south with B&R because they were making a two hour toy commercial and a botched rehash of Forever.

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Batman Returns started the Adam West type camp with things like the Penguin army, the Ice Princess, and the non-stop puns. Michael Keaton's Batman starts coming out with one-liners like "Eat floor, high fiber" that he didn't in the original but you still had a gothic darkness to proceedings.

Batman Forever then removes the Gothic darkness and just has the artificial camp and puns of Returns from the outset. "I'll get drive-thru".

By the time we get to this, it's just nothing but camp. I wish they'd stayed with the tone of Batman (1989). Elements of camp but mostly dark and gritty.

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But Keaton and Kilmer's Batman still spoke with a deep voice while Clooney was just playing himself in a batsuit. The villains in Forever and B&R were trying to be like the Joker with endless laughter and overacting.

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True but you asked if the franchise's decline was inevitable. Penguins with rockets on their backs and James Bond type puns is where the decline started as far as I'm concerned.

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Yeah the penguins with rockets was silly as hell, Returns was a stock Tim Burton film with stock Tim Burton characters and designs, because of Returns we got Forever and B&R, fans hoped Forever and B&R would've gone the TAS route than Returns, they pretty much learnt the wrong lessons from Returns.

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As far as the "lessons from Returns" go, you guys basically have it backwards.

There was a pretty significant backlash from parents, at some of the grosser / more violent / more sexual moments in Batman Returns.

This caused the studio to ask Joel Schumacher to go lighter, sillier, and more kid friendly.

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Again, the outrageous camp was already there in Returns, the Schumacher films just took it to the next level and removed Tim Burton's macabre sensibilities is my point.

I see Batman '89 and Batman Returns the same way as I do Raiders and Temple Of Doom.
The latter have dark elements but much more campier and over the top moments while the former have their comedic moments but overall stick to a more consistent, mature tone.

As regards the sexual side of things, I've heard the same but weirdly BF and B&R seemed more sexual to me - Bat nipples, close ups of Batman, Robin, and Bat Girl's ass, Poison Ivy's cleavage etc.

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all fair points

i am just saying what the studios thought

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What's worse is BF and B&R were written by Akira Goldsman who later wrote Lost In Space 1998, The Dark Tower and is the co creator of Star Trek Picard, you get that guy to write your movie, knowing what we know now what do you think is gonna happen?

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Will if you're ask to make a quality Batman film I believe it will appeal to kids and sell toys anyway.

I don't think dark and gritty would necessarily lead to a better film but makes for a more fan pleasing one.

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You don't need to be be goofy to be lighter and kid friendly, same that you don't need to be depressing to be serious.

Look at The Animated Series it's serious but it's not gross or depressing, it's kid friendly without trying to be goofy.

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The penguins with rockets on their back and magically using their flippers to drag Penguin's dead body into the water make me roll my eyes to this day. Much goofier than anything in the Adam West show.

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As far as I'm concerned Burton should have continued making the films. The studio deserved to get movies that weren't as well liked.

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'As far as I'm concerned Burton should have continued making the films.'

Really wish he had.

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Would've liked to have seen what Burton's Riddler would've been like, imagine something like The Batman 2004 cartoon with him looking goth like.

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No, Jaws and Friday the 13th prove that the possibilities for high quality sequels are endless.

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What? every Jaws sequel is shit.

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Seems like all the superhero franchises fall into the same 4-movie fate:

Superman 1 & 2 = Great
Superman 3 = okay
Superman 4 = terrible

Batman & Returns = Great
Batman Forever = okay
Batman & Robin = terrible

X-Men 1 & 2 = great
X-Men the Last Stand = okay
X-Men Origins: Wolverine = terrible

X-Men First Class & Days of Future Past = great
X-Men Apocalypse = okay
X-Men Dark Phoenix = terrible

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Superman 4 being a low budget shoddy affair made by Canon Films, you get that production company to make your movie what do you think is gonna happen?

Batman & Robin being a two hour toy commercial.

X Men Origins Wolverine destroys beloved characters like Deadpool.

People thought those films were going to be an improvement over the third one, which they weren't.

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