MovieChat Forums > Ransom (1996) Discussion > BIGGEST PLOTHOLE EVER?????

BIGGEST PLOTHOLE EVER?????

posted 19 years ago by ckassady
76 replies | jump to latest

I've wondered about this from the moment I left the movie theater after seeing this movie and the topic was brought up but never answered by a previous poster so I'll just paste his question here:

"When Shaker "rescues" the kid, the kid listens to him as he identifies himself as a cop. When Shaker is in Mullen's house to collect the reward, the kid listens to him also, but this time he recognizes his voice and pees in terror, which tipped Mullen thus giving the next twist in the story . Why didn't he recognize him before? "

This gigantic plothole by a big name director is inexcusable, what was Opie thinking?? To me, this ruined what to that point was a very enjoyable movie.

[–] emmjay08 19 years ago

i never thought about that, and really i dont find it a big deal at all. The kid was like traumatized during the hostage,he was scared *beep* and didnt know what was going on, so for the kid to not recognize the guys voice at first seems acceptable to me. Its after the whole ordeal is over and the kid is back to normal so that he can think straight again.

[–] ckassady 19 years ago

he was rescued by him (Sinise character), if he didn't recognize him then as his captor, he certainly wouldn't later on, I just think by the time some of these movies get done being edited they hardly resemble the movie they should or could

[–] jetwet03 19 years ago

Sinise was also scott free with the money at the end. He could've kept his cool, denied he was one of the bad guys, and easily come up with an explanation as to why the kid peed on himself. I think the movie just goes south as soon as Sinise's character looses it.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Joaquin_Phoenix7 19 years ago

I agree, I watched it yesterday and realised not long after that this was a bit of a problem in the plot.
The kid still had tape over his face when Shaker was saying 'Don't shoot i'm a cop' so he would still have recognised his voice.
It was a good film though, just they should have thought it through a bit better.

[–] thekman-1 19 years ago

You also have to consider that the kid was probably euphoric over finally being 'rescued,' so his mind might have been elsewhere, not to mention the traumatized state he would still be in from such an ordeal.

[–] Jimothy54 19 years ago

I wonder if its not so much his voice, but somthing that Shaker says...I can't quite remember coz I haven't seen it in ages, but maybe its like when Shaker says "Shouldn't be a problem" to Tom and thats when it clicks...Maybe not his voice?
I'll have to watch it again.

[–] BryanEkers 19 years ago

The whole ending was completely unnecessary. It was kinda COOL that Sinise would end up collecting the $4 million as reward instead of ransom, and there was no reason he couldn't have gotten a check from Gibson at Gibson's office, instead of his home. That would have denied the opportunity for a "square-up reel" in which Sinise is punished for his crimes, though. To appease the masses who want evil punished and a happy ending, we're subject to that useless chase at the end. Pity. Chop the last ten minutes and this was a pretty good film.

[–] KingOfCollege 19 years ago

I was thinking the same thing. It may not be the most positive message in the world, but it is infinitely more enjoyable.

[–] jbrunner007 18 years ago

I watch this movie almost every day... (its my morning workout movie, for the last year or 2) So i have seen it about 300+ times... (ghost is my evening workout movie)

You all are pretty dumb...

Shaker says "I'm a cop" in a far different voice, than his usual New York Drawl. His HEAVY NYC Accent is most visible (to me a native Manhattanite) when he says
"Every day your going to have to ask yourself, is today Jimmy Shaker Day"

(and earlier, when he says, "look me in the eye and tell me you weren't running" when Cubby Barnes buys kid cereal and tapes at the store for Sean to listen to).

So Shaker DISGUISES his VOICE during the RESCUE, (he uses a very young man's voice) but goes back to his voice later when Sean pees his leg... that is a recurring theme in this movie... He also disguises his voice earlier when Kate tried to meet the kidnappers behind tom mullen's back in the church- SHAKER WHISPERS! Later Hawkings (Lindo) says "he never raised his voice"...

Attention to detail... is now required before you post anymore plot holes which are not correct

[–] Tbimbo18 18 years ago

get a damn life

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[–] Nahret 18 years ago

Funny. I realised just now that I've never seen this movie in its original language. I've only ever seen it on tv, which means, dubbed in German. I'm watching it right now, and I get the impression that the people in charge of the dubbing didn't get that voice thing, either. Thanks for the answer, anyway.

*******
The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination. -- Plain, simple Garak

[–] tron57 18 years ago

wow 300+ times morning workout??? who is dumb???

and this is a funky movie to work out too, actually it's creepy... if there is ever a ransom demand even remotly close to the premise of this movie ill make sure to point the fbi to your user name

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] david1806 14 years ago

let me get this right, you are talking about dumb people and then say you watch this every single day while working out....hold on, as I write this, I realise this must surely be a wind-up. Are you for real?

I know that post was four years ago but just watched the movie (not for the first time), and felt I had to comment. Oh how I laughed......

Anyway, I'm off to watch The Sound of Music, the 756th time - I watch it every time I take a s##t.

:o)

[–] csteve67 14 years ago

thanks I love it when someone throws dirt on the "plot hole" diggers!

[–] Soodinum 12 years ago

1. There's something very wrong with you to watch a movie that often. don't try and come up with a reason why you're not. It won't change the truth. Ask anyone.
2. He disguises his voice during the rescue? And then goes back to his normal kidnapper voice at the victim's home? Yeah, that makes sense.
3. Calling people names doesn't get you a hearing. Try having a conversation.

'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings.

[–] eyesmalloy 10 years ago

Listen, James Bond, you're just another rude punk who thinks they're hot sh*t because they live in New York. No one cares. Really. Have some respect for other people or keep your mouth shut.

Oh, and you watch the same two movies every day while you work out and have for over two years? Is that nine years at this point? First of all, it damages your body to work out every day. Second, you obviously have mental problems and should probably be institutionalized. And third...trust me, you're the idiot.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] bababear 16 years ago

But the scene in the bank made it clear that Jimmy COULDN'T get away with it. When they double parked the policemen came up and shook his hand. When they walked into the bank people applauded and were taking his picture.

$4 million isn't going to buy you a lot of fun if you're stuck in the Mexican jungle and don't dare stick your head out of your mud hut for fear that someone will recognize you.

Think back to the O J Simpson case. When the question of bond came up, a good point was made: where could he go if he wanted to run? Between football, movies, TV commercials and the trial his face had been plastered all over the world.

Jimmy would have been in the same boat. His face had probably been in every newspaper and on every TV station in America and several abroad. Heroic NYC Cop Rescues Millionaire's Son. Then it would have been even more widespread after the truth came out.

His making a clean getaway would be an interesting plot twist, but the movie would have made maybe $50 worldwide even with Gibson in it.

[–] d_henderson1810 13 years ago

So, you want to see the evildoer be rewarded, rather than get what he has coming to him?

This is what is wrong with people today!

[–] d_henderson1810 10 years ago

Why do you NOT want the evil doer punished? Don't you want to see the bad guy get his in the end?

You probably would have barracked for Hitler to win WWII as well.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] TheMgnt 18 years ago

Also, considering he was blindfolded and couldn't see what was going on he was probably just trying to figure out what all the noise and comotion actually meant.

Additionally, he was dehydrated (mentioned during the rescue), drugged by having cough syrup poured down his throat (shown early on), and probably wasn't fed very well during the week or so he was kept. He would have been physically weak and not entirely there mentally.

Biggest plothole EVER? Hardly. What a misused word.

[–] KillerMovieMan 18 years ago

I thought you were going to say the plothole was how Shaker and Barnes were not found at the quarry when there was at least 2 choppers and bunch of FBI agents and someone recording through nightvision goggles.
One would think that any and every thing moving in a 2 mile area would be found. Especialy Shaker in a car overlooking the whole thing.

The voice recognition thing was totally fine. There was a lot of yelling when the FBI rolled on the house and he did change his voice and only spoke two short lines. Something like "I'm a cop" and "I'm on the job".

Pretty good movie, I really enjoyed the gang turning on one another, good stuff.

[–] randy_pendleton 15 years ago

As well, after living through hell a week or whatnot, the words "I'm a cop" was probably music to his ears. The dehydration et cetera likely obscured the voice & only the miraculous words he heard were processed.

[–] captkirk_4 14 years ago

That's what I thought the first time I saw the movie, but 10 years later I saw it again and noticed there was a scene right before he collected the money where we found out he had purchased one way international airline tickets for himself and his girlfriend. When they started to investigate her surely they would find out about this link and there is no way Sinise could have explained that one away. Look how fast they find out details about suspects after sensational crimes.(Like when they pulled that guy off the flight to Dubai after he tried to blow up an SUV in Times Square a few hours earlier.) Sinise knew he had a very short time frame to collect the money and get out of the country. The question I still had is was he planning on killing his girlfriend too, or did he just plan on framing the guys. At first I thought he was going to kill them all, but on second viewing he had such a surprised look on his face perhaps he really intended to get the reward and leave with her. Her corpse would have led them to him eventually so it would make more sense to have her disappear into the shadows for a bit while the cons take the blame.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] krazykorean4-1 18 years ago

It's not a plot hole. HE probably didn't hear him, or if he did, he didn't recognize the voice. I mean he got kidnapped and has been lying on a bed for like a week. But when he's in his parent's house, he's clam and everythings ok again. I guess the voice just clicked in his head.

Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.

[–] poopdawg15 18 years ago

Don't forget about the scene where Sinise shoots just over the kid, he would have heard his real voice then, because they were in the room together. That is why he is able to recognize him.

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[–] RobBase086-1 15 years ago

I did not think it was a big deal either because you could see the child was traumatized like you said. Due to the reaction the child did when he heard Shaker talking to his father and peeing onto the floor.

Well it will take the child some time for him to return back to normal because of the whole ordeal that happened to him. I am sure he will be haunted for sometime due to the things that happened to him.

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[–] PhoenixRising1980 18 years ago

Like it's been said, it's not a plot hole.

A plot hole is a missing piece of event that's been left out either because of laziness, forgetfulness, or incompetence on the part of the filmmakers. The event in this case being the kid being able to ID Shaker as the killer (when the police storm into the hideout). But this event isn't left out. One, because it's not entirely clear that the kid was in his right mind at that point (as he'd been drugged, disoriented by the constant blaring music, blindfolded, malnourished, etc). And Two, because it comes later in the check writing scene... it was simply delayed for suspense.

What sometimes appears to be a plot hole really isn't, it's intentionally left ambiguous in order to tie two other pieces of plot together for some specific effect, like SUSPENSE... (ie, having the kid saved without identifying Shaker's voice, then having him hear Shaker's voice later when Shaker's in their home, upping the SUSPENSE). The filmmakers needed to save this event for later.

If there is more than one reasonable explanation for a missing piece of event, then it's not a plot hole, all things being equal.

[–] moosefeathers 16 years ago

i think the kid recognized him, because he couldn't see who was in the room, but heard him, like he did when he was blindfolded.

[–] coys77 16 years ago

I watched it last night for the first time in over 3 years. Great movie 8/10. But I was thinking this too. He's heard him before, and he recognised him when he's in the house to collect the reward, but doesn't say anything when he says he's a cop when he's inches away. I guess it threw him when he heard the same voice say he's a cop. If the boy said there and then though, then it would be hard to believe it as every one knows him as a cop (after the flash of the badge) rather than if he wasn't an officer.

[–] derirre357 16 years ago

He changed his voice. At the end of the movie I was thinking the same, that it was a plot hole... Then I went back to watch the scene again and true, he uses a different voice, so the kid doesn't recognize him.

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[–] PotassiumMan 16 years ago

You forgot to add "Spolier" to this thread's title. Although at three years old, it has probably done more than it's share of damage.

But to answer your question, no, this was not the biggest plot hole I've ever come across. I've seen bigger plot holes in many other films.

[–] roboh-1 12 years ago

So you're planning to watch a movie that is a decade old, and you start reading through the message boards on imdb. You see a thread called "BIGGEST PLOTHOLE EVER?????". Do you think it could possibly contain spoilers?

=*=*=*=*=
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[–] Kazichelle 16 years ago

The kid doesn't realize that the person saying that he is a cop during the "rescue" is because he is dehydrated and confusion. Dehydration can cause confusion and you can hear the EMT tell the parents that he is OK, but dehydrated.

I know that Ron Howard would not have let this get by if it didn't make sense. He is too good of a Director.

I think that the frame of mind that they child is in at the end of his ordeal is the reason he didn't recognize the voice. Plus, those are the only words that Gary Sinise says. When he is talking in the office at Mel Gibson's home and the child hears his voice, he is talking normally the way he did during the kidnapping. More than a few words.

These are just my humble opinions. :-P

[–] hockeychamp7 16 years ago

When Liev and the chick take the kid to the woods to kill and bury him after Mel goes on TV, Sinise intervenes and chews them out. The kid would have heard him then. Also, when Sinise and Gibson are arguing on the phone, the kid is about 2 feet from Sinise without any ear protection, and Sinise is screaming into the phone.

[–] fmwross2 15 years ago

I thought you were going to say that Donnie Wahlberg's character was shot in the head and the police didn't even think to question his brother. That was something I thought was quite dumb.

[–] nat365 15 years ago

Ok, at the end of the film the kid was drugged, dehydrated and exhausted, to the point that he barely recognised his own parents. How was he supposed to decipher, from the line "I'm a cop!" shouted twice, amongst a lot of other shouting and confusion, the kidnapper's voice? It was pretty obvious that once he had recovered, was calm and feeling safe, hearing that voice while his mind was clear triggered a primal reaction. It wasn't an active mental recognition like "I know that voice, I wonder where from, let me think..." He had a gut fear reaction because when hearing the voice while not dehydrated drugged and confused it struck an instant chord. That gut reaction could not have happened when he was rescued because, as I have stated, he was barely in his right mind.

[–] CptHowdy87 15 years ago

Ok, at the end of the film the kid was drugged, dehydrated and exhausted, to the point that he barely recognised his own parents. How was he supposed to decipher, from the line "I'm a cop!" shouted twice, amongst a lot of other shouting and confusion, the kidnapper's voice? It was pretty obvious that once he had recovered, was calm and feeling safe, hearing that voice while his mind was clear triggered a primal reaction. It wasn't an active mental recognition like "I know that voice, I wonder where from, let me think..." He had a gut fear reaction because when hearing the voice while not dehydrated drugged and confused it struck an instant chord. That gut reaction could not have happened when he was rescued because, as I have stated, he was barely in his right mind.

This is definetley the best explination.

The kid is starved, drugged, had loud heavy metal blaring in his ears day and night and was blindfolded and cuffed to a bed. The cops storm into the room shouting while Shaker shouts "I'm a cop" -that's all he says. HOW is the kid in the state he's in meant to lay there in his state and immedientey identify this voice? Totally unrealistic expectations. From YOUR point of view, sitting in the comfort of your own home on a cosy couch watching the movie, you know that Sinise was the kidnapper. When watching a movie, think from the characters perspectives and get in tune with the film, don't assume that characters have the same coherant judgement in the situation that they're in that you do while you're watching this from the comfort of your own home.

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] media_HO-HOlie 14 years ago

i agree to captain howdy.
"I need more sex, OK? Before I die I wanna taste everyone in the world."
-Angelina HOlie

[–] Gus-69 11 years ago

Ok, at the end of the film the kid was drugged, dehydrated and exhausted, to the point that he barely recognised his own parents. How was he supposed to decipher, from the line "I'm a cop!" shouted twice, amongst a lot of other shouting and confusion, the kidnapper's voice? It was pretty obvious that once he had recovered, was calm and feeling safe, hearing that voice while his mind was clear triggered a primal reaction. It wasn't an active mental recognition like "I know that voice, I wonder where from, let me think..." He had a gut fear reaction because when hearing the voice while not dehydrated drugged and confused it struck an instant chord. That gut reaction could not have happened when he was rescued because, as I have stated, he was barely in his right mind.

THIS.

Another thread created by a hysterical know-it-all claiming to be smarter than the filmmakers. Pathetic as always.

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[–] CptHowdy87 10 years ago

I thought you were going to say that Donnie Wahlberg's character was shot in the head and the police didn't even think to question his brother. That was something I thought was quite dumb.

You weren't paying much attention were you?

First of all, Donnie Wahlberg's character is shot in the torso, not the head.

Secondly, the very next scene has Delroy Lindo's character talking to Mullen about how they've already discovered that the man who was shot has a brother much higher up on the criminal food chain who's probably the mastermind behind the kidnapping. The very next scene involving the kidnappers has Liev Screiber's character freaking out about being discovered and having to flee town as soon as he can.

I don't know how you could've missed all that.

Maybe instead of crapping all over a movie because you didn't understand something (because you weren't paying attention) you could instead simply ask questions for clarification? A very common issue on IMDB; "I didn't understand something hence it's stupid and doesn't make sense!!!"

[–] CptHowdy87 15 years ago

It`s pretty weak but it`s viable that the two voice levels are vastly different, one under duress and pain, the other calm and relaxed in the Mullen house.

It's not weak at all, read what I and several other posters have said above and it makes perfect sense, it annoys me when people don't bother to read what others have posted in a topic before they post.

[–] allthewine 15 years ago

In my honest opinion it is a plot hole.

Jimmy's voice does not change at all when he goes to collect his bounty.

[–] Jackie68 15 years ago

I agree that it is too.

[–] liven1812 15 years ago

Actually, it almost seemed as though Shaker tweaked his voice when he was saying "I'm a cop." next to the kid. It was a lighter voice, without the typical Sinise grind to it. You probably do this all of the time. When you call someone on the phone, a business call, you raise your voice up a bit to sharpen your words... at least through the first few lines. In a conversational mode, your voice is less guarded, and settles. It was this voice that was recognized. That isn't to say he wouldn't have recognized the guarded voice, eventually, but given it was only one or two quick lines, and delivered far from the voice that was heard on the phone, it is easy to believe the voice wouldn't be recognized. That, and, as already mentioned plenty of times, the circumstances probably had the boy in a cloud.

Also, to further my belief Shaker was intentionally disguising his voice, Shaker mentioned earlier about "Having a tough time with my accent". If he spoke the very same way he had just thirty minutes earlier, or what not, he probably knew he would be figured out by the kid.

[–] neoquaker-1 14 years ago

Liven hit the nail on the head. Sinise changed his voice. It sounded very different to the way he usually talked in the movie.

[–] Manfrombelmonty 14 years ago

Can't be bothered reading all 5 pages of a 4 yr old post bit the kid not recognizing Sinise when he identifies as a cop himself isn't any sort of plot hole.

Shortly after Gibson arrives and the kid is still lying on the bed. Gibson shouts "Sean Sean" at the kid. Kid replies: "who is it?".

Kid was traumatized/ malnourished/ dehydrated whtver you want to call it. But whatever his condition, he didn't recognize his own fathers voice, so not identifying the killer is no plot hole.

[–] McFly_2015 14 years ago

I wonder if there's an exercise that can be done matching someones natural voice vs. their yelling voice. When gary shouts he's a cop, that clearly is a raised voice that sean may not be able to exercise. He likely heard his 'inside' voice more often and thats the one he uses indoors. Or maybe he does know all along but is too scared. I mean even when he sees Jimmy and wets his pants, he could easily run and motion to his mother that Jimmy is the kidnapper but is too scared.

[–] chrismahon2005 14 years ago

He had to go round early to get the reward, and then leave the country, in the killing of his fellow kidnappers he shot them first, then fired a few shots in the gun he left on them, it would not take the police long to find this out and ask questions of him and his story about what happened, also if he had done it all in front of the cameras "i thought we were doing this all on monday ?", maybe people who knew the dead kidnappers would know he was with them, or had seen him about with them, so he had to take a risk and try his luck, it was all screwed any way

As for the kid, yeah could have been a pharse he said, his mind was now back to some kind of normal, the swat team made a lot of noise bursting in and he was scared and could not see, so did not straight away know his voice or it was him

[–] april_rain 8 years ago

I saw this movie recently.

IN the scene where the cops bust in the ransom house, Shaker uses a generic loud voice
"Whoa Whoa! I am a cop. The kids's alright!"

Later, he speaks in his low baritone drawl that he had used before. That's the voice the kid recognizes.