When Spec Illario tells the true Story of Cpt. Walden´s death, you can see a battle sequence with her shooting Iraqi soldiers with an m16. BUT: I thought the m16a2 (which was used in this case) could only fire single shots or tripple salves, but not fully automatic - but she did?!? Or am I wrong about this?
shareYou are right, Hollywood is wrong.
shareMy brother told me that the M16 has full automatic capability -- or at least did originally. But after it was used in some initial engagements in Vietnam where soldiers quickly burned up all their ammo, the weapon was thereafter produced with some sort of limiter that restricted it to a semi-automatic firing three-round bursts with each squeeze of the trigger.
Is this correct?
The M16A2 is restricted to single shot and three round burst. However, Hollywood doesn't always care too much about accuracy in war movies, so they will often use a variant that has full auto capability (like the Canadian C7, or an older M16A1) and dress it up as an A2 (really not too hard unless you know what to look for).
Hollywood doesn't much care as long as audiences are entertained when it comes to action movies, because only the vets are there bitching about the inaccuracies anyway. Though I can say that a lot of action/war movies have been ruined for me because of glaring inaccuracies. So I guess it is a curse sometimes.
Hollywood does play fast and loose with reality, for dramatic purposes; but, a greater consideration is the restraints the Pentagon places on a film production, in exchange for official cooperation. The Pentagon routinely requires script changes and other alterations, which often reflect a fantasy image it likes to project. The instances of Pentagon interference in Hollywood productions are legendary and more often results in glorified recruiting ads, like Top Gun, rather than realistic drama, like An Officer and a Gentleman and Platoon. For instance, in an Officer and a Gentleman, the Navy objected to the depiction of Olagapo in the Phillipines and the use of profanity and the harsh nature of Lou Gossett's character. However, the writer of the film had been through the AOCS program and could prove by experience that what he had written was accurate. Director Taylor Hackford refused to make changes and the Navy refused cooperation. Hackford was able to get cooperation from the Washington National Guard and changed the locale from Pennsacola, FL to Puget Sound, WA.
So, many of these Hollywood inaccuracies are, in part, the result of the Pentagon presenting a manipulated image, rather than reality. The rest is dramatic license and sloppy writing and directing (see any Jerry Bruckheimer film).
The M16A2 came out in the late 80's well after Vietnam, during the war and after the US pulled out of Vietnam the M16 and M16A1 were used by the military and the automatic rifleman (the only person AUTHORIZED to fire on full automatic) was replaced with a SAW gunner, the SAW (M248 as I recall) is a light machinegun and was one of the weapons the downed huey crew had available, it also fires the NATO 5.56 mm round fired by all versions of the M16
share"The M16A2 came out in the late 80's well after Vietnam, during the war and after the US pulled out of Vietnam the M16 and M16A1 were used by the military and the automatic rifleman (the only person AUTHORIZED to fire on full automatic) was replaced with a SAW gunner, the SAW (M248 as I recall) is a light machinegun and was one of the weapons the downed huey crew had available, it also fires the NATO 5.56 mm round fired by all versions of the M16"
Almost right. During vietnam only the M60 was used. The M60 and M249(there is no M248) are a lot alike, except the M60 uses larger ammunition.
I never said that the SAW was used in Vietnam. During Vietnam there was an AUTOMATIC RIFLEMAN who fired an m16 on full auto. A MACHINEGUNNER used the m60. There was 1 or 2 auto-riflemen in each rifle squad and 1-4 machinegunners in each platoon. The SAW gunner replaced both the auto-rifleman and the machinegunner. The m60 fires a 7.62mm round and is belt fed only. The SAW fires 5.56mm (same as the m16) and can fire either by belt or magazine. It's been a while since I've even seen one and I was never assigned as a SAW gunner. I have fired the m60 and the m60d (the version used by helicopter door gunners and crewchiefs).
shareYes it was a m16a2, but it's not uncommon for soldiers to mod their guns.
What is more noticeable is that she doesn't frigging reload. what does she think she has, a machine gun?
I no its nothing to do with the M16 and its firing capabilities but when denzel washington is talking to someone he says something about black hawks hearing M16 fire i think and when i saw the rescue i only saw hueys i think they were and gunships ??????
shareI no its nothing to do with the M16 and its firing capabilities but when denzel washington is talking to someone he says something about black hawks hearing M16 fire i think and when i saw the rescue i only saw hueys i think they were and gunships ??????
First off, the M16, M4 or any other rifle is NEVER refered to by soldiers as a "gun", a gun is a weapon with a bore diamiter of .50 cal or larger or fires ONLY fully automatic, second, it is against military regulations to modify any weapon without the proper training, and modifications can only be done by a unit armorer or an armorer at any higher leavel of maintainance, and most soldiers wouldn't want to risk their personal modifications causing any problems with the weapon or comprimising the weapon's accuracy, and it only takes about 5 seconds to remove the empty magazine and re-insert a loaded one and continue firing
shareThere are a couple of other M16s used by the armed forces, some still capable of fully automatic fire. The M16A3 is identical to the M-16A2, but has a modular upper reciever, and achieves full-auto.
shareWhat I find inaccurate is the fact that she fires that M16 without reloading. She must have fired over 100 rounds out of a 30 round clip.
share[deleted]
If I am not mistaken (and I'm pretty sure I'm right, but feel free to correct me), the CAR-15 (or M4), the Special Forces variant of the M16A1/A2/A3/A4 (it looks like a cutdown version of the good old M16), can fire fully automatic from a 30-round magazine. The M16A2 (and now, the A4), still has AUTO imprinted on the fire selector, although this is probably due to manufacturing, where AUTO refers to the 3-round burst mode. It is entirely possible that soldiers could "mod" their guns, but probably not feasible in a combat situation.
Applesauce, bitch!
the m4 is fully auto, but it is very modifiable and is usually modded with things like a grenade laucher, bipod, or flare; and a scope or other sights. i saw this movie about a year ago, but i don't remember anyone having a 203. it is possible, if a soldier is really good at firing a weapon, to shoot burst or even semi auto fast enough to make it sound full auto.
"I heard alcohol makes you stupid"
"No I'm... doesn't..."
The M4, which was introduced in 1994, is single-shot and three-round burst. The M4A1, introduced in 1998, is single-shot and full auto. Just to clear that up, don't see how M4 talk got involved. In this film, they were utilizing the M-16A2, accepted by the Army in 1985 (Marines adopted in 1983). The A2 is only capable of single-shot and three-round burst, developed under the idea fully automatic fire is a bloody waste of ammunition. There's no way someone in this film utilized anything other than an A2 as a possible variant of the M-16 (other than a CAR-15), as medevac helicopter crews aren't really considered under the guise of "Special Operations", thus little perks like fully automatic M-16s (like the M-16A3), are not applicable. However, what seems more likely is that they used a Diemaco C7, an Canadian Colt-licensed M-16A2, which is more than fully capable of fully automatic fire. A previous poster stated this, and I am completely in concurrence of this theory.
Proud Member of the Republican Attack Machine
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Spiku,
While the Diemaco C7 theory is possible, it's more likely that the cinema armory the crew of this movie obtained the weapons from simply took a civilian AR-15 and, holding an 07 SOT Federal Firearms License, modified the AR-15 into a psudo-M16 by installing an auto sear mechanism (armories rarely install burst mechanisms because it's Hollywood... Hollywood likes full-auto guns). Independent Studio Services in Southern California recently added a collection of FN "F2000" and "P90" firearms to their inventory by purchasing civilian FS2000 and PS90 carbines, then shortening the barrels and installing select-fire mechanisms. When you hold an 07 SOT FFL, that's often much easier than trying to obtain a real F2000, P90, or M16A2.
- recon228
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The original was auto, it wasn't that effective that way so the A2, A3, and new A4 are all semi and burst.
The CAR-15 and M4 have auto and semi.
The SR-16 is auto and the AR-15(civilian/police) is semi.
M-16 A2, A3, and A4 all have the capability of a box-clip. The box-clips can be seen on the SAW, but are rarely used on M-16's because of the large weight. But it is still a Hollywood mess-up if she was using a normal clip.
share Anyway, the modular design of the Stoner design allows the M16 series to change barrels, bolts and whatever necessary between them. You can turn an M4 into an M16A-3 or A-4 changing the barrel and forward grip. Then, you have single and full auto fire mode.
At the present time the interchangeable complete "uppers" are available in various barrel lengths and profiles, from 7 to 24 inches long, slim and heavy, in dozens of rifle and pistol calibers, from tiny but fast .17 Remington and up to monstrous .458 SOCOM (This stuff turns a CAR 15 into a portable cannon).
I mean, if you have the parts needed and you want a full auto M16, I think it would not be very difficult.
Sorry, rodomir, but the barrel and fore grip have nothing to do with the function of the rifle. Switching from auto to burst would require changing the trigger mechanism.
To whoever said that soldiers don't mod their weapons: most don't but some do, often with disastrous results. A guy in my battalion in Iraq tried to be slick and make his trigger lighter. He ended up weakening the sear and the weapon spontaneously discharged on burst, blowing off the bask of his foot and calf.
Another note: while the M16A2 was in use during the Gulf War, all units do not automatically get new weapons as soon as they are adopted and many units still used A1 models at the time. Some even had the lengthened stocks and round hand guards of the A2s.
dustin bennett said: "Sorry, rodomir, but the barrel and fore grip have nothing to do with the function of the rifle. Switching from auto to burst would require changing the trigger mechanism."
Sorry, I hadn´t explain it on a proper way. I meant that if you see an "apparently" M16 A2 firing full auto, you shouldn´t say "that´s impossible" because the mechanism may belong to a M4 or wathever AR15 model with full auto capability, but the barrel and the forward grip of an M16 A2.
if you tab the trigger really fast, it'll fire like a full auto, but the accuracy would go to hell.
but if you are providing suppressive fire, it doesnt matter.
i'd know because i've done it many-o-times
This thread had to be one of the most interesting I've read in a hell of a long time. No rancor, no recrimination, no vulgarity.
We AMERICANS....sure as hell know our weapons. And know how to use them. God Bless America. And to all the vets ( myself included ) that "chimed" in here.
The mind, like a pool of water...Reflects best when still and undisturbed.
Amen :)
shareSeem to be a few vets here.
Just wanted to take a mo to say thank you all very much.
We are all in your debt.
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During the vietnam war, the m16A1 was used against the vietcong, this rifle had a full automatic capability as did the later version of the m16 A2, which was also made to be waterproof so they it could be used in the terrain of vietnam. Now as a replacement of the m16, colt developed the m16 a3 and the m16 a4, which are both only able to fire single fire and three-round burst. These are the rifles that should have been in use during the gulf war, not the m16 A2 model. But a variant of the m16 used during the golf war was colt's m4 carbine, this rifle had a shorter barrel and a collapsible stock. This rifle, designed to fight in cqb (closer quarter battles) was able to fire fully automatic and semi-automatic. Are you sure meg ryan wasn't shooting the m4 in the movie?
shareUnfortunately, the M16 will never live up to the M14.
shareI would say its allready far surpassed the M14. its been in service for about the same amount of time.... well nevermind isnt it still in use today as a sniper weapon?
share
I am a vet and service of a flight (Us Air Force formation) that used both full Auto M!6a1's and 2's. Albeit those that fired full auto easily had many things wrong with them. Mine in particular no matter wht mode selected it fired Full three round burts, leading me to believe it had either been modded or the selector switch was broken. Sights were great though. My next was a 16a2 it it fired like it was shooting sloppy noodles. Hangs receiver was always sloppy no matter ho w i cleaned it, but if i remebr it never went full auto on me. Besides we were mever in what could be said full combat situations that needed full auto and my commander in particualr wouldnt let us even if wee could go full auto. He always yelled when he heard it. Semi at best one round one body was the motto.
I thought the wepaon she had was odd that one she never reloaded. Yes 5 seconds was enough time but she didnt have that either. She was constantly ducking and firing. If I remember correctly. Second she was spraying cover fire all over the place yet she hits almost every target no problem. Not to mention the recoil. I dont care who you are the gun on auto will climb being held like she did. I tried and it did every time at the range.
stupid was a crime you would get double life and the electric chair
Hmmm... aren't all of Meg Ryan's scense shown as flashbacks from the memories of the soldiers being interviewed? Who here can give me an exacting replay of anything from memory without overstating even the tiniest point? To those around the charactor she could very well have seemd to be firing like an 80's action movie star a full 100 rounds on automatic, whether or not that was what actualy happened in the fictional reality of this film or in any real life situation. Hollywood error.... I don't think so.
Re-watching the film last night she didn't come close to firing 100 rounds, though she did carry on like an 80's action hero. Still the point remains the scene is being shown as a memory and by that point in the film as the actual truth to the story comes out she is now being portrayed as a true hero performing an incredible feat to save her men. To Ilario she was dropping Iraqis like flies left, right and center.