what happened to Chris Penn? - Short Cuts (1993) Discussion

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] baron13 18 years ago

Actually, I believe the TV anchor says at the very end, almost fading out, that officials weren't sure if the girl's death was earthquake related. So I'm not sure the Chris Penn's character will get off scott-free.

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[–] timmy_501 14 years ago

Actually, I believe the TV anchor says at the very end, almost fading out, that officials weren't sure if the girl's death was earthquake related. So I'm not sure the Chris Penn's character will get off scott-free.

Sounded to me like they said they weren't sure the avalance was earthquake related. Either way, still sounds like they're calling it an avalance.

The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] ghtx 18 years ago

"that ending had so many loose ends, i almost lost respect for altman"????

How could you have any respect for Altman to begin with if you're not a fan of loose ends? Are we talking about the same director here?

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[–] andyd-1 16 years ago

because Loose Ends isn't Altman's only work, it's possible to have viewed his other work and gained respect for him prior to viewing Loose Ends.

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[–] unlv_2 16 years ago

Penn didn't kill the girl in the river it's that simple. In the short story, as in the film, it's not important how the girl died. The relevance of the girl is that Stuart's wife can't comprehend how a person could leave someone lying in the water for days, especially a person whom she loved. In the story it eventually hits Stuart when he learns the girls name and sees her parents on TV, he finally feels a sense of guilt. It also ruins the Penn plot line; his character is building up throughout the film, whats the point? He takes *beep* from everyone, listens to his wife get guys off on the phone, and struggles to make a living. He finally has a breaking point and kills the girl with the rock (on a side note Altman did a great job blending that story in with that of Jerry and Bill's). What is the point of watching Penn build up with anger throughout the whole movie if he has killed more girls. It takes the significance out of his anger culminating in the murder of the girl, then it just makes him a psychotic murder and not a normal guy who just couldn't take it anymore.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] prawna 16 years ago

Just thought of something, i think we all agree that Chris Penns character bashed that girls head in and Downey Jr's character and his prospective girlfriend saw him do it. The televison broadcast at the end seems to infer that the earthquake took the blame for her death. In the real world you'd think the girlfriend would come clean.
Throughout the movie there was definitely a sense of how shallow people could be. Maybe the three of them would concoct that type of story if the girl could be enticed with maybe, lets say, a career as a model?
Didn't Downey Jr. use his experience as a make-up artist to break the ice with the girls in the first place? Now that would be pretty close to as shallow as you could get. To betray your friends memory for the slim chance at fame would be the sort of story you'd expect to continue the theme.
Like most theories I've read it's a bit of a stretch, I just want desperately for that storyline to wrap up neatly to finish a story that was worth the three hours.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] biffer_spice 15 years ago

are you strange? you know "loose ends" isn't the name of a work. it's more a style. i think the post you're replying to is saying that altman often leaves loose ends in his storylines. not that he did a film called "loose ends".

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[–] fourbyfive 18 years ago

i believe it was a rock he killed her with. and i think the answer to this one is the most simple/obvious. take what we know about penn's character: that the guy is getting increasingly perturbed and frustrated with his wife's phone sex job and he feels left out/pushed aside. to altman's and penn's credit this isn't acted out overtly--he never takes it to the level of screaming specifically "i'm sick of this..." or anything. it's a subtle thing we can gather from watching his body language, facial expressions and interactions with her. definitely a mark of good acting. from what i gather, it seems he just simply snaps in the end. perhaps psychologically the character has grown to mistrust and be disgusted by women in general due to his wife's indiscretions?? it happens. it's also possible that in his "fragile state" he may see something in this girl that reminds him of his wife and goes berserk on her in lieu of actually killing his wife, which would be much harder to get away with than killing a strager in the middle of nowhere. you can see in his eyes--before downey jr and the other girl go off--that something is amiss. obviously it wasn't pre-meditated, and obviously he couldn't have known there would be a scapegoat earthquake and so we can assume he acted before thinking anything through...SNAP!!
as far as the news report saying there was only one casualty...it is consistent with all the other loose ends and i think it is also representative of real life. we don't always get to know the ending and some things just go unsolved. he leaves us hanging because, well, that's life.

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[–] idiot27000 18 years ago

I also think the ending subtly leads us to believe that Penn's character was also responsible for the dead women in the lake that the fishermens found.

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[–] Shooterlover 18 years ago

There is no indictation that Chris Penn's character had anything to do with the woman in the lake.

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[–] XenonXylophone 18 years ago

Hence the phrase "subtly leads us to believe".

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[–] robertoaraujo 18 years ago

its not even subtly...its right out stupid

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[–] sosgemini 18 years ago

i wondered the same thing...its not stupid...its just another loose end that allows one to ponder the possibility...

theres nothing "stupid" about it.

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[–] polk4tds-1 17 years ago

no...penn had an increasing frustration that led to that biker's demise....
your reasoning that it "SUBTLY" leads us to believe that maybe Penn killed the found woman is the same as if it was Lily Tomlin who hit the girl w/ her car and drove away..... leaving her to be found, raped and dumped in the river.

Penn's story has nothing to do w/ the fisherman's, you are reading way too much into it

a=a

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[–] jonip2211 17 years ago

Ummm, I thought Lily Tomlin's character hit Casey, Andie McDowell's son in the movie. And did you miss when Buck Henry and Lily Taylor accidentally got each other's pictures at the Kodak kiosk? Buck Henry's pictures were of the dead girl in the river......that lead me to believe he was the killer, although would he be so bold as to have them developed by a retail outlet, that clearly could have the opportunity to pull the pictures and turn him in.(At least that is what I've always heard).

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[–] polk4tds-1 17 years ago

Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear... I meant that you are reading too much into the connections... The girl I was referring to was the girl that the news reported to be dead from the quake. What I'm saying is that according to your theories, (like Buck Henry) it's the same in thinking that Lily Tomlin's character killed the girl TOO, cuz she's been known for driving into kids.

As for Buck, I don't think he killed anyone. He was just fishing like the others, and it is really strange to see a dead body in a river, and wouldn't you take a picture if you were really intrigued by it??? or better yet, you wanted to tell your friends?

Having him develop them as a scene in the movie is just to play a little joke w/ the other set of photos... each customer thinks that the other is some kind of murderer, seeing apparent "murder shots" which is why they each take a glance at the other's license plates. If he killed the girl in the river, would he be concerned with the other photos and take down their plate number to possibly report?? I don't think so.

a=a

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[–] The_Manchurian_Nominee 15 years ago

I haven't seen any evidence for this conclusion except for trite over-analysis. I don't understand it.

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[–] LeonardPine 15 years ago

Oh for gods sake! The dead girl in the river doesen't have anything to with anything else in the film except that the fisherman find her. She just happens to be a dead body. If she was murdered is irrelevant to the film.

Penn's character has probably never killed anyone before. As other posters have pointed out, his seething rage at his wife's sex-line rantings finally comes out in an act of murder.

Some people read WAY too much into whats in a film. There doesent have to be an explanation for every little thing in a film. And thats what makes Short Cuts such a great film. People, events and lives are all unpredictable, unexplainable and a lot of the time pretty horrible.

"I felt my pecker flutter once, like a pigeon havin' a heart attack"

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[–] ghigau 17 years ago

I agree. I left the film believing that Penn was at least a double murderer.

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[–] lukas1985 9 years ago

You don't know how to watch movies then.

If you love Jesus Lizard and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!

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[–] bnkholen 17 years ago

Good catch. I never thought about the connection, but is is possible. Remember the seen where Penn's character is staring at the naked girl pretending she's dead in the pool? He is almost more than intrigued in that scene. So it is definitely a possibility.

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[–] dustypistol 9 years ago

AH! THIS connection!!! ^^^ :D

Before reading this post, I was convinced the two deaths had nothing to do with each other... now, I'm not so sure. Could it have hinted at BOTH Zoe's suicide AND Penn's having left a dead girl in water, unbeknownst to us viewers?

Good catch.

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[–] jonathan_gress 18 years ago

Yeah I think you got it. I like your analysis.

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[–] gordzilla66 18 years ago

i worked on "Short Cuts" way back in 1992... In fact, I was the one who dumped the rocks down on the people during the earthquake scene. It was a rock that killed the girl.
As an (semi) interesting side note, while getting me and a few large trashbags (full of vermiculite and foam chunks painted with latex to look real) up onto the side of that hill (more like a freakin cliff) iI actually started a couple REAL landslides... Every time i moved, rocks would fall down on the crew below. Altman had the camera set up almost right below me. I remember one rock struck a camera assistant in the head. Once I got up and in place, they lowered the bags of rocks to me on ropes from above me. Also, once in place, I realized that I would need to pee and soon. But since everything was in place and I couldn't more (falling rocks), I had to stay put. The scene took forever to do. Eventually I could take no more, I had to go. they had to toss a empty water bottle to me. That's right, I had to pee in front of the ENTIRE crew. In front of Robert Altman. Everyone laughed. I was teased about it forever.

That film was the best experience (or one of them) I had in Hollywood.

I ended up with some cool memories (many of Tom Waits) and some awesome artifacts. I got pretty much all of the clown stuff from Claire the Clown's house, including the giant Clown Head that sat on her car... Some great polaroids of Tom Waits and Lilly Tomlin.

The whole cast/crew was like a big family.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] bryzee86 17 years ago

don't be horrible. you've no reason to not believe this person. Nor even to believe them. just let them be.

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[–] kurt-coyle 17 years ago

Why don't you post the photos of the cast, particularly Tom and Lilly. I would love to see them.

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[–] startingater 17 years ago

I agree completely!! Exactly right!

Check out my AFI top 100 movie blog www.myspace.com/moviemann

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] cinemafreak 18 years ago

I just caught the tail end of this movie, and have yet to see the rest. But I don't think it was a beer can. I think it was a rock.

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[–] tudormon 18 years ago

Hello... has anyone crushed a beer can with his foot? or fist? or just by slapping it? You can't kill someone with a beer can... so it must have been some other object.

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[–] welikemacandcheese 18 years ago

you could with an unopened beer can.
if you remember, no one finished drinking their beer yet.

but i agree, i think he picked up a rock... you just barely get a chance to see him tossing something onto the ground, maybe he was tossing his beer aside, and going for a rock... i'm not sure, i'd have to watch it again.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] tuskythewalnut 18 years ago

I don't think she ignored his advances. She voluntarily took off her shirt when she was sprayed by beer. We never see Chris Penn make an advance because the camera follows Robert Downey and the girl he's with.

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[–] Mauve_UFO 18 years ago

Where is there even the most subtle suggestion that he killed the girl in the lake?

With the Fire in me now.

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[–] ireneshallcross96 18 years ago

She was dressed exactly the same way (the top).

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[–] MovieAddict2016 18 years ago

As soon as he sees the girl with the red hair he basically goes into a trance and can't speak or move properly. I think it's because she looks like the dead girl found in the river by the fishermen - implying that he had indeed killed the girl found in the river, and was feeling the urge to kill again. I think we're meant to gather that his wife's job basically sent him over the edge to begin with. He became jealous and angry that she was devoting time to anonymous men while leaving him with "nothing."

But that's why Altman's films are so intriguing - you can never really take anything at face value. It could just as easily be interpreted that this was the first time he snapped simply because of his wife's job, and he had nothing to do with the girl in the river.

“Man is a genius when he is dreaming.” - Akira Kurosawa

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] SunnyRoadToSalina 18 years ago

...?

The scene with Zoey in the pool is not a subtle hint that Penn killed the girl in the lake. That scene is used as a foreshadowing and transitioning device. The movie is filled with moments of transition that makes the film flow smoothly. For example, in the opening credits the helicopters are the connectors bringing the people's stories together. Later, its the earthquake. The whole movie is about connection and disconnection.

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[–] beauty_innocence 18 years ago

Chris Penn didn't kill the girl in the lake. Don't you remember when the packages of pictures got given to the wrong people?
Robert Downey's girlfirend ended up with the TV achor's Father's pictures and he with hers. The pics that belonged to him were of the murdered girl in the lake. I thought it was odd that he just "happened" to be in the area and stopped in the hospital to see his Grandson.... So he must have killed her & then went to the hospital to see his son & Grandson to cover it up.
I figured when they got his license plate # that they would report the pics to the police, but it never happened.
Also I think Chris did snap and kill that girl by the rocks, I don't understand how he wouldn't have been arrested unless they killed the friend too, I am sure she would have told.
Then I also wonder why the parents of the boy who died didn't call the police to look for whoever hit him with the car.
I loved the movie but hate unfinished endings.

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[–] TopFrog 18 years ago

In your mind you apparently merged the characters of Gordon Johnson, the fisherman who takes the pictures (played by Buck Henry), and Paul Finnegan, the father of the television commentator (played by Jack Lemmon). They are two entirely different characters.

-- TopFrog

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[–] Can_a_bitch_get_a_donut 17 years ago

Oh man did you miss the mark.

Jack Lemmon's character didn't kill anybody. The guy who got the wrong pictures was one of the fishermen who had taken some snapshots of the dead girl they had found and later reported. He's not the same guy as the grandfather at the hospital! He wasn't trying to cover anything up. We have no idea who killed the girl, although some people suspect Chris Penn's character.

------
We come into the world naked, screaming and covered in blood. Why should the fun end there?

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[–] starvinmarvin19 17 years ago

I think "christopherlovet" is on to something here.

Tom Waits was definitely the brains behind all the Chris Penn killings tho.

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[–] noveltylibrary 18 years ago

I dunno, you guys are stretching. I never once considered Chris Penn as a serial killer. You could see the anger at his wife's "career" was building and he finally had to let it out somehow.

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[–] neojon 17 years ago

Yes, his anger has bottled up, and finally it explodes in the face of the innocent girl. This is also symbolised by the spraying beer can.

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[–] ritamilo 16 years ago

He's also mesmerized by Zoey - there's a scene where he's just outside the gate and Robert Downey, Jr.'s character calls him and is babbling and he's barely listening because he's watching Zoey get undressed to jump into the pool.

I think he tormented himself by fantasizing about women he felt he could never win. Also, his wife's phone sex job reduced their sex life (or lack thereof) to just another mechanical chore for her and he probably felt emasculated. You can almost feel the rage inside his head.

when he murders the young girl at the end of the film, it feels as though he's striking out at all the women who either ignored him or pushed him away

"...truth against the world..." - attributed to Boudicca of the Iceni

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[–] oconnelb 16 years ago

So if the two girls both had red hair, I think that would be the biggest clue to whether Chris Penn killed the girl in the river also. I want to believe thats the case, because it makes the film twice as interesting. It would be a good connection to speculate, because Altman tries to hide every connection there is,leaving us only with ambiguous clues to speculate with.

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[–] nutsberryfarm 11 years ago

yep. that makes sense.

Where there's smoke, there's barbecue!

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] demosthenes2 18 years ago

This was the only thing I didn't like in the movie. It didn't even really feel open-ended because it happened too fast to make any sense of it and we lost those characters before we knew it in two quick shots. The movie didn't give any possible suggestions for exactly what happened, nor could we even make a good reading of Chris Penn's reaction to her death. But if he did kill her, I would have liked some sort of hint in his performance that it was coming; maybe not enough to sense anything violent coming beforehand, but maybe enough to recall his face after it happened.

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[–] dombrewer 17 years ago

Interesting. Having watched the film again tonight and knowing what was coming I think you actually get both. There isn't much thematically (other than several deaths) to suggest a violent bludgeoning at the end of the film, but that's really the skill in Altman's contrasting tales - it's a real shock.

As for Penn, his performance definitely leads up to that moment - virtually his entire plot-line follows his sexual frustration and discontentments - and you see it taking it's toll. By the time he meets the mountain biking girls you can see he's sick of being belittled by everyone he meets and is on the edge. The scene itself is pretty clear. You hear her screaming and see Downey Jr and the other girl running back up towards the cliffs and then you see Penn smacking the redhead with a rock three or four times in the head. Then the earthquake starts - cut to reactions of other characters in the film - and shortly after you get a shot of the girl on the floor with a bloody head, and Penn stood with bloodlust (and blood) still on his face, eyes practically rolled back in his head, holding the rock.

There is an odd thing though - Downey Jr's character would probably defend his friend and make up the rock-falling excuse, but what about the second girl? She must have seen what happened, and if not, at least seen Penn's character's unhinged state and reaction...

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] drwho 17 years ago

The news story could be talking about a completely different girl, one who actually died from falling rocks and has no connection to the Penn murder... the whole movie has unexplained loose ends to make you think... maybe Penn killed the first girl and maybe he didn't. Maybe lilly tomlin will find out she killed that kid and maybe she won;t... maybe Penn gets away with murdering the girl at the end of the movie or maybe not.

I fricking hate maybes. Yes.. it is like real life, but I don't watch movies for real life... I watch movies to get away from real life.

Choose your signature quotes carefully…. They could be misinterpreted (you moron).- drwho

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[–] E_v_o_l 17 years ago

I felt sorry for Penn. You could see how a put-upon guy like him could easily snap and cross the line into murderous rage.

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[–] Senator_Corleone 17 years ago

I actually felt sorry for his victim, seeing as she was an innocent young girl who got brutally murdered and all.

I mean, I empathize with Penn's character and understand why he did it, but I don't have much sympathy for him.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] RobSac 17 years ago

What I don't get is that the other girl would have ran right to the police after the quake and told them about the murder.

I'll tell you one thing, that scene was disturbing. I didn't see it coming at all. As soon as Penn was hitting her with the rock, I was like "what the.....?!?". I'm going to have to watch more of Altman's films. I never rented this one because it was so long and just seemed like something that would be boring. Now I can't wait to watch it from the beginning. I only watched the last 45 minutes or so and a lot of those characters and story lines really seemed interesting.

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[–] theshizznit-1 17 years ago

this whole thread is silly because it's obvious that he killed the girl
with the rock and got away with it by saying she was killed by a rockslide during the earthquake...end of story...
there are tons of visual connections like the lori singer/girl in the lake thing but i don't think that makes chris penn guilty of killing the lake girl..

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[–] 17 years ago

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