English dub haters please get over yourselves. - Tonari no Totoro (1990) Discussion

[–] Suzume-san 12 years ago

What's your problem? You watch what you like, and I'll watch what I like. That all right?

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[–] bmalone135 11 years ago

The OP's problem is people who act all high and mighty for preferring the original voices with subtitles over the English dubs.
I think the OP's post was pretty clear on that.

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Just because you're too stupid to understand it, doesn't mean it's a plot hole

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[–] ferraritr 12 years ago

if you can't truly enjoy the visuals while also reading the subtitles, you should probably pick up a book once in a while or something...you do know what a book is, right?

I'll continue enjoying subtitles and if anyone asks 'should i watch dub or sub' i'll gladly tell them watching something in it's original language is always a better experience.

You call people 'pretentious snobs' for liking the original more because it's how it is intended, then you proceed to tell everyone that they should watch it dubbed because it's the only way to properly enjoy the visuals? Does that not seem hypocritical to you?

I'll gladly tell people how I enjoy to watch the movie, but I won't force anyone to watch it that way.

Here's something to think about: Everyone saying 'how bad the dub is' has actually watched the dub, but have you actually watched it in the original language? Do you understand what they've changed about the movie and can you possibly realize how much Miyazaki went through to get the movie to what it is as an entire package? Just something to think about.

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[–] celavie77 12 years ago

if you can't truly enjoy the visuals while also reading the subtitles, you should probably pick up a book once in a while or something...you do know what a book is, right?

I find that as condescending as the OP, if not moreso. So everyone who is a slow reader should never watch foreign films? I'm actually genuinely curious though and am not trying to be mocking, but how can you pay attention to the visuals every step of the way if you're also looking down at the subtitles? I just don't know how people do that. Maybe I'm a slow reader, but I do like to absorb every word and every visual, and would feel like I was missing just as much if I were watching ONLY the subs of Miyazaki's films.

Here's something to think about: Everyone saying 'how bad the dub is' has actually watched the dub, but have you actually watched it in the original language? Do you understand what they've changed about the movie and can you possibly realize how much Miyazaki went through to get the movie to what it is as an entire package? Just something to think about.

Miyazaki himself has said that all animated works are "dubbed," whether it's in the language the creator happened to be fluent in or a language in another country, so he's fine with dubs so long as there aren't cuts to the material, which he has expressly monitored to ensure it's as close to the original Japanese as possible after the cut-up jobs to Nausicaa and Castle in the Sky. He once sent a katana to a studo that tried to cut material to his work, with the words "No cuts" attached to it. The only reason Disney can even distribute his work is because it's on his terms.

And so much of Miyazaki's story is told through visuals that, again, I think that it's equally appreciative to watch the dub and focus on the visuals and still be getting the heart of his story, as it would be to watch the sub, miss a little of the visuals, but get the original language voices. Inevitably, the sub is as much of a translation as the dub is, so I personally believe that unless the voice acting is atrocious that you're ultimately getting the same integrity of the work. But that's only if the creator is semi-involved and the story is maintained.

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[–] Tales-from-the-Goondocks 11 years ago

Nope. You don't miss the visuals if you are reading subs. People who have read subs for the most part of their lives (like people in Latinamerica who are used to watching american movies in their original language) will tell you that you can appreciate beautiful visuals and read at the same time.

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[–] uponapyre 11 years ago

It's physically impossible to read sub-titles and see every frame. So yes, you will potentially miss details if reading subs.

Saying that, the creator himself has stated that /all/ animated films are dubbed, and as long as the quality of voicework is on par and the translation is good there is no loss.

You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, Darling!

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[–] Tales-from-the-Goondocks 11 years ago

Not physically impossible at all. I don't know how messed up your field of view is, but most people can read and appreciate the visuals at the same time. Sure, you can't focus your attention 100% on both things, but for people who are used to reading, it only takes like a second to finish reading a line, and after that, appreciate that same shot. So your excuse doesn't hold for people who are used to reading. And yeah, animated films are dubbed, but the american dub is not the one the director originally intended for his work. It is irrelevant if the director himself is trying to make you feel good about it, if you watch japanese movies in english, then you aren't getting the real experience, therefore there is a loss and that's it. If you are okay with that, then fine, but don't try to lie to others with things like "it's physically impossible" or "there is no loss".

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[–] WeirdRaptor 11 years ago

Except, the director personally supervises all the English dubs that are made of his films, therefore it is the real experience and not a loss at all. These English dubs are approved by Miyazaki, and that's more than good enough for me.

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf

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[–] formerninja 11 years ago

Well, in reality, if the viewer does NOT speak Japanese, then watching the subbed version is NOT the full experience. Do you think Miyazaki intended for his work to be read? No, I'm sure he intended the voices to be heard, for the dialogue to be experienced through the sense of HEARING.

Yes, as a non-Japanese speaker, I CAN hear the Japanese language, but to my uneducated ears it makes NO sense. It's just gibberish. So, how would one get the FULL experience, if they can't even take the movie in through the ears? Watching a movie with subtitles, ensures that you're LIMITING the experience to only visual stimulation. Whereas DUBBED versions allow you to experience the voice acting with your ears. And believe me, the experience is much different.

IMO, and I'm sure it's similar to others, you need to be able to take a movie in with as many senses as possible. Subbing, basically forces your brain to concentrate visually, on things that the ORIGINAL EXPERIENCE would never have directed you to. The ORIGINAL experience and the FULL experience, would come from having HEARD all of the dialogue, rather than just READING it.

It's difficult, when hearing foreign languages (for most), to discern emotion. There are tons of times when people get in arguments over text-messages on their phones, because of the lossy translation. I've heard people say, "Oh no, I was only joking, but I can see how you thought it wasn't because it was a text!" Well, the same basically applies here as well.

That being said, I like both! I'm currently doing Rosetta Stone Japanese, with the hopes that one day I can watch Anime WITHOUT subtitles or Dubbing. :D

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[–] CapnKaos 11 years ago

I have to disagree with your reasons simply because I've always preferred a subbed foreign movie to a dubbed movie. While it's true you can't understand what is being said, you're still getting the emotion and the actor's voices even if it is, as you say, complete jibberish. Emotional stress on words are pretty much universal it's not difficult to figure out if somebody is angry or happy or whatever just from how they speak. You might not get the words, but you can sure figure out how they're feeling.

This would of course be different if you turned the sound off and just focused on the subs.

In Japan, first run movies are typically run with subtitles and the theatres are packed. Most Japanese people can't speak English because it's not necessary and yet they flock to see these movies in the original language. It's only later that some of the movies get dubbed and by then most people that want to see it haev already done so. The ones that go see them then are the ones that don't want to read subtitles or just don't like the sound of English.

On the whole, even when the dubs are done well, I find there's something missing from the movie and it's almost impossible for me to get immersed in it.

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[–] formerninja 11 years ago

The fact that different languages assemble sentences in a different order than in English, makes it difficult for some people to discern the stresses of emotion. But IMO, you're just dubbing it yourself in your head when you sub-vocalize what you read. Most people, probably not you (you're probably the 1-10000000000 who doesn't) but they pronounce each word they read in their heads as they read it, even in books (well especially), and that's the reason it takes people so long to read them. So, if you're reading subtitles, you're dubbing the whole flick with your innervoice in your own head.

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[–] CapnKaos 11 years ago

My guess is that you're doing it in that way. When I read subtitles, I'm just reading the meaning and I'm listening at the same time to hear how the actors are portraying their parts. This is not an uncommon practice. In fact everybody I know that watches foreign films with subtitles tells me the same thing.

This isn't the same as reading a book or where you're supplying the character with a voice. There, yes, I can see your point of pronouncing the words and listening to it in your head.

Flick your eyes to the bottom of the screen and process the words before flicking them back up to see the rest of the scene before somebody else starts to talk. It's not that difficult to do.

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[–] formerninja 11 years ago

I didn't say I couldn't watch it with Subs, lol, I don't have a single problem with it. I just think you're getting LESS of an experience if you don't recognize the language it's spoken in. It takes away from the auditory recognition experience. When you hear something spoken in a language you're fluent in, you use a different part of your brain to understand it, whereas when you read it, another part is engaged. But I agree, it's not difficult to watch foreign films (anime for that matter) with subtitles. It doesn't bother me, but for the sake of argument, I disagree with the opinion that watching it DUBBED provides less of an experience. I advocate the opposite.

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[–] GuyOnTheLeft 11 years ago

Yes, this!!! The people who say they the "full experience" with Japanese spoken dialogue that they don't understand...WTF?!?

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See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

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[–] GuyOnTheLeft 11 years ago

I read very quickly, but if there is a lot of dialogue I'm still not going to see things at the top of the frame as much as I will if it's dubbed. But furthermore, unless you are lucky enough to have some kind of setup that puts the subtitles below the image, you have block-letter type right over top of the image! Imagine putting sizable computer text on a Picasso. These are incredibly beautiful illustrations that lose something by having text over them.

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See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

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[–] Ninja-Robot 11 years ago

What I got from the OP is that she's (he's?) having a go at people who have a go at people for watching the dubbed versions. Never for a second did I think she was saying English dubs are better - just that they're better for her, and many other people, who prefer to take in the visuals without any distractions.

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[–] GuyOnTheLeft 11 years ago

The only way you can have any credibility in making this assertion is if you are fluent in Japanese, and you can assure us that the subtitles are a more accurate translation than the dubbed dialogue.

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See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

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[–] masuka-fan 12 years ago

While I try to make at least my first viewing in the Japanese, the English dubs on these Disney releases are professional and very well-done, and I don't mind them at all. The only thing I object to is all the added dialogue for Jiji in Kiki's Delivery Service, because it simply isn't in the script. And because it's kind of lame.

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[–] JTurner82 12 years ago

Purists will always have their reasons for disliking dubs in general. But I, frankly, have never really understood any of it. As far as I'm concerned, I too am a fan of the Miyazaki Disney dubs; they are some of the best I've ever heard. They are by no means perfect, but the care and effort put into them absolutely shines. I personally liked Castle in the Sky, Kiki's Delivery Service, and Princess Mononoke better in English because they each have great voices that fit their characters perfectly, and in many ways better than their Japanese counterparts. Granted, some voices are not always well chosen (the leads in Castle, although competent, DO sound like teens and Clarie Danes' otherwise solid San does sound rough at times), but none of them have rubbed me the wrong way. They DO add extra lines, yes, but I honestly don't mind at all.

With Totoro, I'm torn. I liked the FOX dub as much as anyone, but I was not offended by Disney's version at all. It's an interesting and fun retelling, and the Fanning sisters acquit themselves well for the most part, although I personally think Elle is the juicier of the two. OP/ED songs aside (the only area where the FOX may have an advantage over the Disney dub), both are on par as far as I'm concerned.

As far as the older pre-Disney dubs are concerned, aside from Totoro, Kiki's older dub is done fine, too, although I'm more attached to the Disney dub. But Castle in the Sky I can only watch with the Disney dub because the older '80s JAL dub is just plain horrible; I don't care if the leads sound younger OR if there isn't as much dialogue liberties, the acting, writing, and overall production standards are absolutely dreadful. And Mark Hamill easily kicks the heck out of JAL's lifelessly robotic Muska — I'm sorry, but I CANNOT stand Winkless' dull, monotonous voice in the role, even if he sounds like his Japanese counterpart (which is not the way to approach the material to begin with, as dubs SHOULD NOT be carbon copies of each other).

Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle are touted as the ONLY dubs to see in the Ghibli dubs, but honestly, I've been so spoiled by many of the other Miyazaki dubs that I just don't hold either to that high of a standard.

I'm just not as interested in the Japanese voice acting aspect of any of these movies OR any Anime in particular. The dubs for these movies and other sereis I've seen play just fine to my ears, and that's all that counts. (If anybody says I'm not a "real" fan for watching Miyazaki's movies this way, well, then fine with me. I'd rather be my OWN kind of fan than someone who tries to impose their view on others.) If others want to hate on them for whatever reason, well, there's no point trying to get those people to listen. People will hate on anything just because they can.

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[–] andrewlawton2008 12 years ago

I have seen most of the movies in both Original and English and I can say that the Dubs are a lot more enjoying then having to listen to the annoying talking and reading subtitles.

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[–] DeceptiveFox 12 years ago

I'm definitely NOT trying to point fingers here, so don't anybody go and get offended, but I generally find slow readers will never opt for subs for obvious reasons. I can see how it would make watching a movie a chore to some people when in reality it should be a relaxing, enjoyable experience.

"Well...I've seen enough. Come on Charlie, we're going home."

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[–] GuyOnTheLeft 11 years ago

As I said above, I'm a very fast reader (just look at the time stamps on my posts in this thread) and I still prefer the dub.

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See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

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[–] mew2xy 12 years ago

I am currently watching Tonari no Totoro in English and I'm finding it very bizarre... I don't know if I can watch the whole film like this but I'm half Japanese and the only times I've ever seen it previously (when i was a child) was in japan which is WHY ITS SO WEIRD.

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[–] zzyxx 12 years ago

i'm so used to watching subs that i don't even need to concentrate on them anymore to read them, my field of vision has adapted to the point where i have no problem enjoying the visuals while reading subs at the same time. then again i don't have a HUGE tv (40").

there is SOME anime which is dubbed well (ghost in the shell, cowboy bebop, armitage III, most ghibli adaptations), but even with those, there is always something lost in translation. japanese and english simply are not interchangeable languages and CANNOT be 100% accurately translated. at least with subtitles you can interpret things for yourself instead of relying on dubbing where entire paragraphs of dialogue have to be fundamentally altered to approximate what's on the screen.

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[–] ebright99 11 years ago

I watched Totoro with the original Japanese track for the first time last night. I've probably seen the english version 10 times. I must say that I really feel the english dub is better in this case. I couldn't find a single situation where the dialogue differed significantly between the english and japanese versions. This film has particularly short, simple, direct, and minimal dialogue so it seems that there weren't any big compromises neccessary.

Also, the girls on the english track are very good. Probably because they really are sisters of the same age as the characters. The intonation of the original japanese actresses didn't strike me as anything special, while the Fanning girls really delivered something remarkable.

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[–] Raimar_Lunardi 11 years ago

Think english or whatever your country dub is bad?? try a Russian Dub... It's F*king TrasH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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