Anybody been to Haiti?


I know of a few people who went to my church, and they went to Haiti as a mission trip. They subtly some of the weird crap that happened (things go missing, voices at night, blood at odd places). But my favorite story they told me was of this old guy who would walk by the house they stayed at, and would stare at it for a while. Soon, they found out from some the locals that he had died. Keith, one of the missionaries, swore, days later, he saw the same man walk by their house one day. That really creeped me out. They told me that voodoo (vodun) was basically Satanic, and the work of Satan was not fiction. Vodun in Haiti is kind of like a local secret, as almost all the townspeople are a part of some kind of voodoo, but NO ONE talks about it outisde of the rituals.

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As a Haitian decendant, I visited for the second time this year. And while all the talk and story telling about vodun seems reprehensible, it is actually a way of life which is practiced by most indigeneous civilizations of the world. It is the belief of God being the center of matter-everything being god and god being everything. And so, the attributes of god (the saints or "lwas")are served and summoned to perform certain needs. For example, rain (god) is necessary for the cultivation of fruits and vegetables; and the earth (god) needs to be the right consistency, temperature and organically sound (minerals and such)for plants to grow, and so, rituals are performed for the honoring and pleading to the gods for a fruitful harvest. When researching religious practices of peoples of the world, it is amazing how the seemingly different civilizations are the same.

As for Voudou being taboo, it is the official religion of Haiti, now.

Nevertheless, as a Haitian, I am not knowledgable as I seem, I think this site will really shed some light on the entricacies of this way of life... http://www.erzulies.com/about_haitian_vodou_2.php

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umm...I lived there...infact I lived in Gonaives and Leogone, the two capitals of VooDoo. I speak fluent Kreyol and feel that I pretty well understand what goes on there. Voodoo is something that is done for the most part behind the scenes. Everyone knows it's there. Everyone sees the signs of it...but for the most part it isn't spoken about much.

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*beep* typical! religion is the start most arguements! and is one of the main causes of war and conflict so in itself religion is the root of evil?

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^not always. It's either religion, politics, racism, classism, just a power trip or all of reason mentioned above.

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I suppose being an atheist condemns me? Being "educated" by the Catholic Church just made me more aware of its lies, hate, mind control and greed. As for Voudoun or Santeria, I have plenty of West Indian and Hispanic friends who subscribe to it and some go to church every Sunday and they're perfectly normal. Separation of church and state is all I ask for, but I suppose after a leading Dem got told by Dick Cheney on the Senate floor (a sacred piece of land in my book) to "f^ck off" looks like that's not going to happen any time soon. Liberal bias? What the hell's the FOX news station and every other news network aside from PBS? Are Conservatives nuts? In my opinon, you all just want to control everybody to make sure that they're all unhappy as you are and you'll be able to do all you want on the "other side" when you get there. YEAH RIGHT!! We humans are bipedal animals, live with it.

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As for Voudoun or Santeria, I have plenty of West Indian and Hispanic friends who subscribe to it and some go to church every Sunday and they're perfectly normal.


That's very true.

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"Liberal bias? What the hell's the FOX news station and every other news network aside from PBS?"

A) And CBS and NBC and CNN, and most major newspapers, syndicated journalists, as well as plenty of television journalists.

"Separation of church and state is all I ask for, but I suppose after a leading Dem got told by Dick Cheney on the Senate floor (a sacred piece of land in my book) to "f^ck off" looks like that's not going to happen any time soon. "

B) This is all a complete non-sequitor, please kindly take your soapbox and go somewhere where people, due to a lack of anything productive to do, argue politics.

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...your post is as off topic as hers. At least she had an intention in responding in the manner she did.

Too bad that Mickel guy isn't around; he seemed too pompous to not be any fun.

When you take someone who has studied so thoroughly, many religions...all from the Christian perspective, what other manner can he/she view opposing religions, as anything but 'satanic.'

He made his point wayyyy late in the post, and could have avoided the subsequent 'discussions,' by simply saying, if you're a Christian you view any other religion/God/Faith system as opposite of Jesus/Christianity, and it's Satanic.

Instead, he came off as being myopic, arrogant, with a desire to instigate.

People with such a narrow focus, can't seem to place themselves in others' shoes...what if he had been born in a non-Christian country? People are the products of the environment they grow up in. I cannot stand a human being who ignores the human condition, in whatever relative situation it evolves in.

So, take your titles, and educational support, and chuck it out the window, and start being human. Then look at this website:
http://spl.haxial.net/religion/cross/

You're programmed to believe what you believe; is it not simply enough to know God, and be good, and have Faith? No, because your denomination/affiliation/sect wants to control and influence others, just like every other manmade religion. Religion predisposes, God disposes.

NO THANK YOU.

Oh yea, Serpent and Rainbow..was creepy..and a pretty good movie. :)

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It seemed to me he was saying FROM A CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE and not trying to say it was bad. Who has on the 'Christian glasses' really when everyone just assumes that Satan is bad?


Also, voodoo is seen as Satanic because it acts to appease other supernatural entities that can grant favors or in popular folk magic to manipulate nature by items of power like blood and saints.\
Trying to control reality in this way is magic use which is seen as Satanic in Christianity. Any manipulation of nature by supernatural means is magic. The only one who is allowed to perform such manipulations is God, so trying to control the world in such a way through magic is seen as Satanic.

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I've lived there too most of my life, untill I moved away in 2003.
I don't know when you lived there, but while I was raised and untill last year(last time I visited) vodouism wasn't so "behind the scenes". My mom's family is from Gonaives and I still visit family there (never been to a ceremony there thau).
I also have family members who are vodouist and I've been taken to ceremonies (Poto Mitan), and I've been around it alot, specially in the fact that my father has always been open minded even raised catholic (my grand-mother could be called an extremist. She believed that anyone who wasn't a Apostolic Roman Catholic would go to hell...) and he belives that vodou is a major part of our legacy (even if we don't practice it we have to accept it as part of our lives and history).
Vodouists are christians (don't belive me, then find one and ask them), they believe in God the father and in Jesus Christ (my cousin could be mistaken for a catholic he has so many pictures of Jesus and Mary in his house). They also believe that every act has it's price and punishment follows (actually one of the things that scared me a bit as a child was that physical punishment can be inflicted to a wrongdoer by a "loa", like feeling like you have a broken leg for a couple of hours and screaming and stuff, and then at the end of the punishment, you feel fine. Might be specific to Vodou, but I know people who have felt physically sick from guilt so it might not be so much of a "loa" involed but your own guilt, I think it just might be more explicit in vodou).
The ones going to "Bokos" for personnal gains and wishes of pain for their neighbors are not viewed well by the rest of the practicants and these are the people who have given vodou such a bad name since vodou doens't involve any kind of black magic, witchcraft, dolls(why do people call it voodoo dolls anyways since this doll curse thing was practiced in France before it was practiced in Haiti, before haitian vodou. I think this kind of "magic" is originally european and not african but I might be wrong, maybe the africans brought it to Europe just like they did Haiti.Then again the europeans also colonized africa and forced their believes upon their colonies and not the other way around).

I saw someone write higher that zombies didn't exist.
They do, I've seen them and a good friend of my father is actually trying to set up a rehabilitation center for the people who have been poisonned into zombies, because that's what it is, poisoning (maybe he would get more help if public wasn't so closed minded and more tried to understand it for what it really is).
Essensialy, the poison puts your body in a dead state where the heartbeat and breathing is faint/inaudible and would make a doctor think that you are dead. When this happens, with the low level of oxygen going trough your body, alot of brain cells die (I was told that the zombies that woke up were lucky, maybe an experienced boko is better at it than another but the truth is alot of people just die).
Once woken up, they're in a state of mind that's very complacent (not sure if it's the right word), they do what they are told, like a slave and the master avoids feeding them certain nutrients to keep them in that state. Zombies actually look alot like really tired people, makes me think of what an isomniac/workaholic might look like. Once they start eating normally, they can get to what might just be categorized as mentally retarded person, I saw a woman who is actually learning how to read and talk again...

I'm a christian, go to church every sunday, I'm non-denominational, but I usually go to baptist services (one side of my family is mostly baptist and the other catholic) or methodist ones (my wife is methodist).
With that said, anyone who would think or say that Vodou is satanic should look closer at themselves and the people around them. I don't belive in the vodou religion, but I don't believe in catholicism either, which is very similar(much more than catholics will admit it, but a vodouist will). Vodouists pray to Loas, Catholics to Saints(actually lot of catholic saints are aslo loas). If you think vodou is evil because someone at church told you so, maybe you should consider how evil the catholic religion is (if I convice ennough people that catholicism is evil will it make it a satanic relion also???). In my eyes, and I have experienced both religions, they are essensially the same, and I don't consider either one evil. A christian is a christian and I belive Jesus loves everyone and has wiped the sins of ALL christians.


I'm not a native english speaker so please forgive my mispells and misused words, I just hope that what I wrote made sense.


Ayisyen natif natal ak diaspora.
An'n met tèt ansanm pou chanje peyi a.

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I just wanted to say it was neat to see someone who has also been to Haiti(and lived there)! It wasn't long but I spent a month there this summer with my military unit in Gonaives.I had the night shift and let me tell ya I have never seen a city be that alive at 3am in the morning. It was amazing to me. I am unsure if it was VooDoo drums that I heard but it went on ALL night. From the time I went on shift to about 5-6am in the morning. It was an amazing experience :D

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[deleted]

You are very lucky to have visited Haiti. However, I know that by going with a church group and in the form of a missionary, you did not have full understanding or appreciation for Vodou. Many people serve the loa, but are not initiated like myself. I follow the New Orleans Tradition that also works with the Orisha of Osha/Lukumi (Santeria) and the Saints of Catholicism. Vodouisants also believe in one God and it is not so distant from Christianity in many ways - that is why there are so many crossovers with references to Catholicism. Initiations in Haiti are very costly starting around $1500 - not counting airfare. It is a beautiful religion and deals more with healing than with hexing - Hollywood does have it's way, yes? Ezili Freda is my Met Tet - "Master of the Head" and it was really neat to see the character Marielle play the part of the possession dance and wear the colors associated with Ezili, carrying her signature mirror and a bottle of perfume.

Nancy*
Living my life vicariously through cinema
http://www.myspace.com/thejudasgoat

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OK children.

Interesting discussion so far. Lots of bubble-ish interpretation of the off-topic discussion (hello? This is a movie, therefore ENTERTAINMENT site??).

A few global speakers, which is a bit refreshing in this ultra-narrow field. It often seems to me, as a non-Christian American, a bit baffling how Christian Americans seem to think their world view is the predominant one, when in fact they are outnumbered by other faiths and nationalities. There are SO MANY different world/humanity views, most of which make a certain amount of sense when viewed from within their own space.

I thoroughly enjoyed this movie because it hinges upon the power of human belief, cross-religion/cross-culture.

Did anyone notice this is a really interesting, entertaining movie?? I would think it made everyone posting here think, based on the responses, yet no one is talking about the movie.

As a previous poster asked, "Is anyone else high around here?"

Nuff said.

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I watched this movie when it first came out when I was in my early twenties and a practicing catholic. I liked it then, but wasn't sure I understood that the practice of Vodoun was real.
So, being in a Halloween type of spirit, I rented it again as I recalled it being creepy, and this time at the age of 40, I loved it. I hadn't recalled that it was based on a man's true experience in Haiti. That made it extra creepy and reminded me a bit of "In the Mouth of Madness"--because I couldn't tell what was real, hallucination or nightmare. I am still not sure. But I loved it and who doesn't love Bill Pullman? ;)

As far as the rest of this thread on religion goes--being an agnostic and once again insulted by fundamentalists who forgot that their god had an ANGEL of DEATH kill the firstborn sons of every Egyptian just to get back at them--I can't resist so I will let the pros say it for me:

"Once we can look at religion objectively and impartially, it becomes entirely obvious that religion has all the characteristics of a form of insanity. To one degree or another the religious mind must accept, and believe in, another world; a supernatural or unnatural world, a world filled with all sorts of imaginary beings called gods, devils, angels, saints, demons, etc. These imaginary creatures are talked to, asked for favors, guidance, "signs", or miracles, and then blamed or thanked for natural events that follow. Except for the cloak of religion, such beliefs and actions would otherwise cause an individual to be judged insane, and committed to an institution for treatment."

-Emmet F. Fields

"You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."

-Anne Lamott

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i actually feel this movie could have been made creepier, with less reliance on too-far-out blockbuster action fight scenes in the end, and having the hallucinations be more intense and much more hallucinogenic.

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Ok...to be clear with everyone else, as Dr. Allen didn't classify it correctly, Voudun is satanic to the close minded Christians, or any form of Christianity. So is Santeria, Palo Mayombe, Wicca, anything that is seemingly polytheistic. That is why the world IS in the state that it is today. That is why the crusades happened, that is why Pope Clement ordered the deaths of the knights templar, that is why the inquisition happened, that is why communism happened, that is why the holocaust happened, that is why there are terrorists, basically that is why the world is so messed up, because we don't agree with eachother. We all have our religions, and our religions are all paths to the supreme being.


Now, in respects to the movie whick I think is alright, but the practice in the religion isn't at all. I don't practice Voudun but I dabble in every religion, being from afro-Cuban religions, to dealing in Catholicism, to joining the freemasons in order to understand all religions better. All religions are infact THE same. But we'll all find out in the end.

"Only Oppression should fear the full practice of Freedom."

-Jose Marti

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Meh, I don't want to sound rude, Satan or any sort of religious notion of evil doesn't exist and there are perfectly logical explanations for everything.

Arrested Development > Everything Else

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I did not get all the way to Haiti, but went deep into the Dominican Republic, which is just on the other side. I have to say I got the most icky vibe. I was genuinely scared of the place, was literally on edge the whole time I was there. And I am no wimp!

If you can not communicate effectively, then please shut up

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Voodou is not satanic. Christian Missionaries would say that. Now keep in mind one of the founding fathers did describe Christians ("The Clergy") as the antichrist. Now considering what they've done to the world, including the poor people in Haiti and how they got there, that could very well be true.

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Lots of ideological tension here...and I'd decided to read the posts in order to find out more about Haiti after watching the movie in question. I don't normally watch horror movies (I'm a wimp), but this one held my attention because it DID seem to have (somewhat) realistic undertones. I'll put my cards on the table and admit to being a Christian (though not personally responsible for the crusades or slavery. Or blowing up abortion clinics and snake handling. I have danced about like a loon on occasion, but I'll try and refrain in the future if that offends you), and the movie fascinated me because it DID seem to gel in an eerie way with stories I have heard (both from Christian missionaries--whom I've found to generally not be liars, but maybe they were--and from people involved in the occult). I also thought the political undertones were cool, and perhaps that helps to explain the "this is real" feeling I had throughout the movie (though the soul-capture element doesn't exactly mesh with my theology--still, "more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of" and all that).

Some of the things said on these posts seem (to me) to stem from a great deal of anger at Christianity and its church(es). This may very well be justified, as many people saying these things have most likely been hurt by Christians in some way. I really would like to apologize, as a Christian (though I know it doesn't cover it) for any way you've been hurt by us. I don't claim that I've made fewer mistakes than the people that hurt you, but I do wish you the best, and I wish you reconciliation and healing, even if you never believe the same things that I do. I can tell you that most of the time when I have caused people pain, it's not because my faith tells me to, but because of my own selfishness.

For those of you who are making claims about Christianity who have not been hurt by it, but are sort of going with an "everybody knows" type of mentality, I would really encourage you to educate yourself about it, if for no other reason than to understand your neighbor before you judge him (some of those things you said really do hurt). Read books by C.S. Lewis, talk with friends about their faith, and find out what even the really weird ones (like the snake charmers) ACTUALLY believe. If the result is that you determine that it's just as ridiculous as you always assumed, then great--you can base your argument on logic. If such is the case, and you find something more fulfilling and logical, I'd appreciate it if you'd tell me about it, because I don't want to believe in something that's a lie anymore than you do.

Finally, for the Christians--look into Voodoo (sorry, I forget its proper name) and Haitian African-based religions before you make claims about it on a public forum. It seems freaky and demonic to me (especially after last night's movie), but that might be partly because I only know the stories from the missionaries and occult members. Find out what they actually believe, if they preach any kind of morality other than magical retribution. Things are seldom as black-and-white (as it were) as we think. I've seen (or think I've seen) freaky and miraculous stuff myself, but that doesn't mean there's nothing there to understand.

If anyone has had different or similar experiences in Haiti to those described in that movie, I would love to know about it. Thanks.

Chris
B.A., S.O.B., Wtf, etc.

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One more thing--I would say you have only to glance at the previous posts about this movie to see that agnosticism/atheism (in addition to Christianity--no one is denying that) enjoys more than its share of intolerant people. If anyone thinks that not believing in something guarantees that you’re tolerant of other peoples’ beliefs, you may be in for a shock. Intolerance isn’t caused by a belief; it’s caused by basic human disdain for anyone who doesn’t agree or might be judging you.

Christianity is a moral religion. It is not merely moral, like Confucianism or Socrates’ teachings, but the fact remains that you cannot divorce Christ’s miraculous acts (including the resurrection) from his moral teachings. Among the words of Jesus and the apostles, you will find no direction that Christians kill their enemies—on the contrary, Christ instructs us to love them, and we believe he lived out this teaching when he gave himself into the hands of his own enemies and died (only to be raised from the dead by God—if this seems crude, it is nevertheless the hope of the Christians, and the reason we can afford to love our enemies—-this life isn’t all there is). There’s this passage about Jesus’ arrest—-when Peter cut off the ear of one of the guards who seized Jesus. Jesus turns to Peter and yells at him. “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword,” and he lets the guard take him. Peter afterwards became the head of the church, and similarly died for his belief that Jesus came back from the dead. For about four hundred years, Christians followed Christ’s example in this, until most of the Roman Empire was Christianized (people who are not afraid to die are very convincing). At this point, it was made the official religion of the empire (there was not even a conception of separation between religion and state before this, and I don’t even know that this is truly possible even during our enlightened age), and the rulers had to confront a problem that none of the Christians, including the writers of the Bible, had ever had to confront before: How does this Way--which has essentially been, up till now, an oppressed person’s faith—how does it work when you’re ruling an empire? There’s nothing in the apostles’ letters or Jesus’ recorded words to tell you how to run a “Christian Government.” I think at first, at least, they did the best they could, and while the result was mixed, I would have rather had the teachings of Jesus at least partially informing the way the government was run than an amoral religion, such as that of the pre-Christian Romans or the Germanic tribes. It’s true the government killed people, and sometimes for believing different things, but this is quite obviously in conflict with the teachings of Christ. This is why I make the claim that you can’t say Christianity is responsible for things like the Crusades and the Inquisition—-people are. People are responsible for the 3,000-5,000 people who were killed as supposed “heretics” during the Spanish Inquisition (which ran for about 400 years), just as people are responsible for the 1.5 million executions and 5 million people sent to the Gulag during a few decades of Stalin’s atheistic regime, and the 1-2 million people executed during Pol Pot’s atheistic rule. The difference is, of course, that Christianity explicitly teaches against that sort of thing, regardless of the way Christians later chose to selectively interpret the teachings. You can’t say that atheism or agnosticism teaches against anything. You may be a very moral atheist or agnostic. It doesn’t matter. It is an essentially amoral belief-—it is believing in less, not more, than most people. For every atheist or agnostic who says it’s somehow our duty to help our fellow man, because, after all, people are all we have, you may have another one who says it’s our evolutionary prerogative to advance ourselves no matter the cost to others. I would even argue that if the Inquisition seems more sinister and abhorrent, it’s only because, deep down, we all have the feeling that they should have known better. Why would you expect Christians to behave more than the communists, unless you had some inkling that their teaching, at least, goes against this? There is no moral teaching inextricably bound up with atheism, however, that can judge human evil, even though there might be many very good groups of atheists who would hate the kind of things that Pol Pot and Stalin did (I’m sure most do). But the fact remains that in atheism and agnosticism, you are your own judge, so you decide what is right, whether that leads you to pacifism or constructing gulags. If there’s one thing that history has shown us, it’s that people are moral idiots. They’ll screw up any belief system, but the question becomes, “Does that mean you should blame the belief system and remove it so we can all do what we want?” Beware of creating scapegoats. Whoever you are, Christian, atheist, Voodoo priest, if you want to call something demonic, start with yourself…and figure out how to be saved from you. Best of luck.

Chris

[email protected]

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Best line, by far, in this movie:
(Michael Gough, as 'Schoonbacher', spoken to Bill Pullman, as 'Dennis Alan'):
"I suggest you stay as far away from Haiti as possible."

visit:http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_917.html

If you want a pretty beach, visit the Florida Keys. Got more money than that? Want rainforest covered mountains, and pristine beaches? Visit Maui, Hawaii. Leave Haiti to the Haitians.

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This is proof that Christians should just stay away from things they don't understand. If they don't understand it, they don't like it, so they label it as evil, or Satanic. What a bunch of self-righteous bull.

And about your missionary friends seeing the same 'scary looking black man ghost' more than once. I bet all black people look the same to you people.

Christians should get over themselves and stay out of where they don't belong.

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Well you can't really blame true Christians with believing that things that are not overtly Christian are satanic. The Bible does state that any manner of worship that is not that of Christ, is wrong, and therfore satanic. Now I myself am not a christian, but I choose to belive there is a God, and I don't thnk my God would appreciate all this name calling and such. Can't we all just get along?

But no seriously, why can't people just leave other people to their individual beliefs without getting all defensive? Why does everyone have to agree with you or be called and idiot/deranged/evil ect. And this is for everyone who had something negative to say about another individual on this thread.

Ok, now that I'm done ranting, please disregard everything I just said, as I know you will, and continue with your insults.

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